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Books Media Businesses Apple

Interview With Mac Co-Creator Andy Hertzfeld 165

jeblucas writes "MacDevCenter interviews Andy Hertzfeld: formerly of Radius, Eazel, General Magic, and most famously, Apple. He discusses his recent book, Revolution in the Valley as well as sharing some anecdotes about his time at Apple developing the Macintosh personal computer. Check out this notebook page from the first cut of the memory layout. The book was reviewed here earlier."
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Interview With Mac Co-Creator Andy Hertzfeld

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  • Re:The heap diagram (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @10:24AM (#11263113)
    Try $300 for 1 meg.
  • by imsabbel ( 611519 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @10:41AM (#11263252)
    Well, finding ram prices wasnt easy, because back then there were so few computers with incompatible ram interfaces, but i found something in the december 83 issue of the CT magazine:

    64KB of RAM for a commodore VC20 for 265DM, that should have been around 100$ back then.
    So 1MB would have been 1000$+.
  • OK, I looked it up (Score:5, Informative)

    by koi88 ( 640490 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @10:42AM (#11263257)

    In 1984, 1 MB of RAM cost about 350$.
    And that was when you could buy a house for 500$. Ah, well, not quite. But the price is correct (more or less).
  • Folklore.org (Score:3, Informative)

    by corrie ( 111769 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @10:44AM (#11263277)
    Mr Hertzfeld wrote a lot of the articles on http://www.folklore.org [folklore.org], where some very interesting Apple history is recorded.
  • Re:The heap diagram (Score:2, Informative)

    by spywarearcata.com ( 841806 ) * on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @11:02AM (#11263449)
    Remember the memory prices then. I paid something like $500 for 256kb (yes, that is $2000 for one MB).

    Also, I spoke with Andy (a great a guy personally as he is professionally -- he is the engineering team member you wish you could have) and he admitted that he might have done things differently if it weren't for the insane rush job in producing a real product. After the Lisa marketing and Apple /// "molex" and "National Semi clock chip" debacles, Steve (Jobs) was a more driven than those he drove.

    (After all I heard from others in Bandley III, Steve told Wendell where to put the clock chip on the motherboard...oops.) But look at the big picture. Regardless of how anyone might have done anything differently, the Apple II and Macintosh put the billions in the bank so Apple could do things like, say, the iPod.

    A lot of perfectly engineered things are still in the closet because they missed a competitive opportunity window.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @11:37AM (#11263747)
    0F0064

    That has nothing to do with the memory . It's a sad mac error code you get when trying to load a newer disk (HFS format) using a Mac with the old (64k) ROMs which didn't recognize HFS. (Actually, it may be an error for not recognizing the format, period, but I'm not too sure about that.)

    Goddamit I feel like a complete dork for knowing the answer to that....
  • by amightywind ( 691887 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @12:49PM (#11264438) Journal

    You might enjoy this site [folklore.org] which has lots of material written by Andy about the early years at Apple.

  • by antispam_ben ( 591349 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @12:58PM (#11264515) Journal
    ... with Andy and most or all of the people on the design team, as well as all the other articles on and reactions to the Mac (What?!? Only one disk drive??? This things' gonna flop!).

    There was of course hype of the Mac and put-downs of the IBM PC line, I recall a line about the Mac having three crystals (for main processor, clock, and is there a third? Maybe I can spent $2 at the thrift store to buy one and find out), and the PC color card by itself having three crystals. There's lots more, partly about the social aspects of being on the team and being "paid like baseball players", and partly technical, programming the 68000 and 'keeping the registers full'.

    The '84 Byte would be a great thing to (re)read along with Hertzfeld's book, to put this in historical perspective.

    "It was Twenty Years Ago Today..." (Oh, it was LAST year - my, how time flies)
  • Re:4 digit years (Score:2, Informative)

    by momus_radar ( 668448 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @01:34PM (#11264857)
    The interesting bit about the development of the Mac and the Y2K story is that the Mac was built to address four digit years. IIRC the Date & Time control panel in the MacPlus my Dad brought home in '86 (System 3.2) could be manually set to about 2016 and the OS itself could recognize years into the late 2900's.

    --
    It was a bug, Dave.
  • by slapout ( 93640 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @03:14PM (#11266448)
    Not quite what you asked for, but you can read old issues of Creative Computing from that same time frame (they had an Apple column) at this website [atarimagazines.com].
  • by jmunkki ( 726856 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @03:51PM (#11267016)

    The folklore.org site is mentioned in the interview...

    There's another site with a lot of excellent content on the making of the Macintosh:

    http://library.stanford.edu/mac/ [stanford.edu]

    I think the "Technical Writing" part on that site is extremely valuable. It explains how the Inside Macintosh books were written and how that process affected the development of the MacOS APIs.

    As far as technical documentation is concerned, the original Inside Macintosh books are still some of the best that I have ever read.

  • by dbacher ( 804594 ) <dave.bacher@earthlink.net> on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @05:26PM (#11268604) Homepage
    Actually, the two digit year was never about memory.

    On the Apple ][ and Mac, you didn't have space to store the date in human readable format most of the time, so you used packed binary notation. Typically you would reuse several bits for other purposes as well.

    For example, byte 1 would be year, byte 2 would be month, byte 3 would be day. This lets you store a 256 year period (not a 100 year period) in the program. It lets you sort the records without having to process text, etc. If you were working with the dates, you almost certainly used a pattern like this.

    It takes a minimum of six bytes to store a date in ASCII format, and most of the bits aren't used. Nobody would want to use that format if they could avoid it, because of that. You have maybe 8k total for your data, maybe 143k if you swap out onto the second floppy drive (286k if you're willing to make the user flip the disk).

    I don't think that people understand this anymore, or how hard it was to get anything to run on these, but the Y2K problem was almost exclusively about data entry.

    You take your three bytes, and you parse them to 19__-__-__ on some report, and so you have a problem when the date rolls over because the 19 is hard coded. It doesn't cause any operational problems, just display problems.

    Similarly, you might do data entry that same way (only make the user enter two digits), because users don't like to type. The storage still would be OK, but entering the data would break at 2000.

    But it was never about the memory taken up by the extra two digits. ASCII and Unicode are inherently inefficient, and were rarely used in data structures.
  • by dbacher ( 804594 ) <dave.bacher@earthlink.net> on Wednesday January 05, 2005 @05:33PM (#11268716) Homepage
    In addition to the other child, keep in mind we had word Processors on the Apple ][, where 16k of RAM was bank switched with ROM (if it was installed at all), and high end units had 48k total memory, about 16k of which was available for use depending on what the design was.

    So this was indeed huge for the day, you were talking about a huge increase. And things like fonts were single or maybe a pair of control codes, in a non-extensible binary format custom to the specific word processing application.

    And you want to know what is really scarey is we did word processing on machines that ran 1Mhz, and some that even ran SLOWER than that.

FORTRAN is not a flower but a weed -- it is hardy, occasionally blooms, and grows in every computer. -- A.J. Perlis

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