Can TiVo be Saved? 604
ChipGuy writes "TiVo's death watch has begun. The company is having a tough time finding traction in the marketplace, as more and more competitors rush into the market, most of them deep pocketed satellite and cable companies. But is all lost? What if the company went private and became the anti-cable, letting us download, store, organize, and serve media from both cable and -- this is the important part -- the internet.
Others believe that TiVo should get into the content aggregation business."
maybe (Score:4, Interesting)
Steps (Score:5, Interesting)
2. Tivo provides nice search interface for Tivo BitTorrent client.
3. Tivo provides centralized Torrent servers and includes content in $12.95.
4. Goodbye cable!
Has anybody tried the new SDK [sourceforge.net]? It's pretty cool...they should have done it from the beginning.
Re:About TiVo (Score:2, Interesting)
Granted, TiVo has a much lower price point than, say, a small EPIA. But, for example, until July 1st, HDTV capture cards are available. And you can take a Linux PVR and do all sorts of neat stuff with it--add a RAID array, share the files over samba, etc.
Re:About TiVo (Score:5, Interesting)
TiVo can provide technical innovation. Cable companies are generally not known for their ability to innovate technology or to produce compelling products such as set top boxes like TiVo with new and advanced features. They tend to "follow leads" as is obvious now with the crop of second-rate DVRs that they are releasing.
We'll see how this plays out. Either the technical superiority of TiVo will win out or the lower-cost, lower-quality options that the cable companies can offer will win out. Actually it's likely that both will win and retain some part of the market, the question is, how large a part for each respectively?
Believe me, no one at TiVo is under any delusions that we don't have to work *very hard* to stay ahead of the pack and retain technical superiority.
I feel that especially on this topic, I have to remind everyone that I speak for myself and not TiVo.
TIVO monthly fee sucks (Score:1, Interesting)
TIVO doesn't; it sells you a service and controls you and what you put on the box.
No wonder their business model is failing.
Sounds great (Score:5, Interesting)
I say they get bought by Comcast or Time Warner before the end of the decade.
Re:About TiVo (Score:5, Interesting)
Also you are providing evidence for at least some of my points - believe me there is no way that cable companies could push such *very expensive* technology as dual-tuner HD pvrs without the deep pockets that they have to absorb the losses that must be associated with that product. There is just no way that $10/month can support the development of, production of, and distribution of that product.
I want my IP TV (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:About TiVo (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a control freak. I like to know what's going on and who's doing it.
Tivo controls the box. They control the size of the drive inside the box, they control the data that's on the box, and they ultimately could control what can and cannot be saved onto the box.
And while it is true that some can "hack" the box, Tivo has not given users permission to do so.
Tivo alone maintains control and can upload updates on it, they upload commercials on to it, and they can monitor what I'm watching/Tivo-ing.
In other words, I'm paying for a machine and a service which I cannot legally control.
It's a funny thing but I really hate the idea of law-enforcement or anyone else out there being able to see how many times I Tivo'd something.
Tivo is not the only company who operates this way. I'm sure most digital cable and satellite recievers operate under similar standards.
But if I build my own box, and use open source software, I am free to see what's going on and thus gain some control.
Tivo nor any other company that I know of, gives the consumer that option.
Tivo box after TIVO exits (Score:4, Interesting)
The first out of the gate almost always loses (Score:3, Interesting)
I would be MORE shocked if Tivo actually survived.
Re:About TiVo (Score:5, Interesting)
It's only a matter of time before your local cable company has similar features.
I also have a Series 2 Tivo, which has been relegated to bedroom duty, and had a Series 1 in the past. I have LOVED Tivo (both the product and the company) since 2001. Tivo's software is *slightly* easier to use than my Comcast DVR, but until they catch up in HD support they will lose ground.
Star Trek Enterprise, Arrested Development, etc.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Aggregate video content from the Internet? (Score:1, Interesting)
Cue economics 101 (Score:3, Interesting)
A cable DVR from Crime-Warner is like $8 a month and does several things SA Tivos don't do, like digital sound and HD, and doesn't require hackery like IR emitters and glacial channel changing speeds.
I'll agree that it's substandard software to be sure, but when ordinary people make decisions it comes down to money -- an SA Tivo takes YEARS (box + lifetime) before its ROI exceeds the cable box, and the cable box can be traded in through a cable retail store any time for a newer box.
It's not that Tivo isn't better, but to most people the "better" doesn't matter, the worse does (IR hackery, no HD, etc), and it's a much more expensive hardware INVESTMENT.
Well... (Score:2, Interesting)
So, when DirecTV releases information like this [corporate-ir.net] about them releasing their own DVR later this year, TiVo proper stands to lose a lot of its market share. There was also the issue between TiVo and Comcast where TiVo pulled itself from a deal with the cable company. Lots of folks believe this was a bad move as well.
The only good news on the DirecTV side is that DTV is currently rolling out a new software update [directv.com] for those who own the present DirecTiVo machines. What impact they feel this will have on the forthcoming DirecTV branded machines is uncertain. (i.e. Is this the first of a string of new updates to DirecTiVo... or is this the final nod to the collaboration?)
Re:About TiVo (Score:2, Interesting)
However.
I don't pay $80/mo for cable. I pay $40, and $13 to TiVo to download a program guide to me. That's a lot of money for a very little bit of data. That's about eight nice, glossy magazine subscriptions per year. Never mind the hoops I had to jump through to not use your expensive dial-in PoP. (I had to go borrow a landline for a long time to get the software update) I got it working, but that out-of-the-box experience just sucked.
I would have much rather paid for the box outright, and given TiVo a reasonable profit, than die the death of a thousand $13/mo payments. I'm willing to pay for a good user experience, but I hate the feeling that I'm being nibbled to death by just one more monthly fee.
And, no, the lifetime subscription is simply not an option. It's a terrible value, especially because I'm not sanguine about TiVo inc's future.
I like your product, but I'm not responsible to make your business model work for you. I'll be a customer for as long as I get good value, and right now your value proposition is sketchy at best. I really hope you guys can change this.
DirecTivo (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone who has tried Comcast's alternative to Tivo knows that the interface is completely horrible. It actually makes me angry just to think about it.
When I move this summer, I'm planning on continuing with DirecTV service rather than switching to cable strictly because of the tight integration with Tivo. The Tivo partnership is already a huge asset to DirecTV, they might as well add Tivo to their balance sheet and make it official.
Tivo is my favorite robot friend (next is Roomba). Tivo has made TV fun and interesting again. I discovered Battlestar Galactica thanks to Tivo. I think I'd cry if Tivo died... seriously.
Fixing TiVo? (Score:4, Interesting)
A good first step would be a CableCard-enabled TiVo, so that it can sit directly on those DRM-laden digital cable nets. But there has to be a significant [b]perceived[/b] improvement over the existing cableco-owned PVR. Multiple tuners, better UI, HD... but it's going to be awfully hard to generate revenue when the cableco's give their boxes away.
Too bad there's no CableCard equivalent for DirecTV, VOOM, and EchoStar.
Re:About TiVo (Score:3, Interesting)
2. Fast forward works better with TiVo. While fast-forwarding, when I hit the play button, the TiVo automatically backs up a few seconds, then plays, i.e., it takes into account the lag time between the moment my brain comprehends that I'm at the point I want to watch, and when the button-press is executed. This is particularly good when zipping through ads. The cable DVR stops right at the point play is executed, so I'm always missing the first few seconds after a commercial break.
3. The TiVo has a "wishlist" capability. I can tell it to find all movies which are "historical dramas", for example, or all "dog shows", or every show with "Danny DeVito" in it, and it will give me a list of those programs to select to record. The cable DVR doesn't even let me search for shows by title, let alone keyword.
4. Overall, the TiVo interface is much more user-friendly. The cable device seems to assume that what I want to do is watch TV all night long, and that I might want to hit the record button on something while I'm watching it.
There are others.
Here's why TiVo won't live on (Score:3, Interesting)
This means that dual-tuner TiVos won't work unless you have two cable boxes, too.
And then there's the HD problem: TiVos other than DirecTiVos can't record it. This is a big deal for those of us who have switched over to HDTV. I like being able to time-shift a prettier picture.
I have the Motorola HDTV dual-tuner DVR at home, on Comcast cable. It may not do exactly what a TiVo does, but it's very close. I can set it up to record every time a new episode of a show comes on. I can make it record 2 TV shows, in HD, simultaneously. I can get on-demand programming. And you can even hack the remote (and I use "hack" loosely here) to give you back your precious 30-second skip.
It doesn't make show recommendations for me, but honestly, I don't care. It does everything else, and it does it well. My parents have TiVo, and they can't record one show while watching another, nor can they time-shift HDTV content.
TiVo has to fix these shortcomings somehow. It may be that the only way is to partner with the cable companies to get access to the cable box hardware.
Re:About TiVo (Score:3, Interesting)
Respectfully...try DirecTV
1)they have poor installation (they just dropped wire in the middle of my living room floor, instead of putting it behind the walls). They installed my satellite on my neighbors roof
Installation is done by independent technicians, and it sounds like you had a lousy one...I know from experience this is true of both satellite and cable installers.
2)Their services DOES go out when it is bad weather, and bad does not really have to be a major storm
Again, sounds like your installer didn't do the job properly. Either connections outside aren't sealed or more likely your dish isn't really aligned very well.
3)They lack customer service skills imho. When I had problems they always tried getting me off the phone, and then their next response "you will have to contact a local authorized dealer who will come out at their given rates."
Can't really say much about DirecTV's customer service, but I also haven't had a need to call them more than once in over 2 years. The service just works.
4) They charge an arm & leg for their boxes and once you bought it, god forbid if it breaks.
The beauty of satellite is you can choose to buy *quality* equipment, not the 3rd rate crap that the Cable Co's force on you. If you buy cheapo stuff and it breaks, well you get what you pay for. Also you can buy the feature you *want* instead of just what they want to give you.
With cable tv:
1) They wire behind your walls
Installer issue again.
2) If the service goes out they come and fix it (no charge to you)
With satellite, generally anything that's 'wrong' is fixable by *you*. No waiting on a tech if you are even moderately 'handy'. Aligning a dish isn't hard (assuming it's not on your roof *smile*). But there isn't anything between you and the signal, unlike cable where the tech might be down the street just unplugging every connection till he finds the house he wants...I've watched them do that trying to figure out which was my line...sheesh.
3) Unless your wires are faulty - bad weather RARELY (less then 1% for me) affects your connection
*Your wires* being the key phrase. It's also every wire over every mile between you and the cable co, lots of places for faults to occur that you have no control over.
4) High speed cable modems are way bettr then DSL...and satellite high speed is a joke.
How did DSL get into this? In this one area I must give credit to Cox Cable where it's due, the cable internet 'just works'. Excepting the one time they oversold the node, I've never had much in the way of problems. Just plug and go, it's that easy. I'd love to try DSL but the distance limits have always prevented my getting a signal.
Satellite is hands down better than any cable co I've ever used, and that totals 6-8 different providers/locations.
Re:About TiVo (Score:5, Interesting)
Cable companies were simply in the fortunate position to be able to re-purpose infrastructure that they had already laid down for another purpose (analog TV distribution). And the repurposing that they did took extra investment in digital set top boxes and cable modem hardware, and who knows whatever infrastructure at their head end. No innovation there at all. It's not like they "invented" the internet or any service thereon that by happy coincidence for them have added value to their service.
DirecTV with TiVo DVRs have all of the advantages that you mentioned about the SA boxes, and they're better DVRs to boot.
I speak for me and not TiVo again (obviously).
Re:About TiVo (Score:3, Interesting)
The verb "tivo" is firmly established in the American lexicon. I'd hardly call that a failure of marketing.
Tivo's financial problems can all be directly traced back to thei strategy of, "sell the unit at a loss, make it up on volume."
TiVo puts nice software on top of their commodity hardware platform, but they haven't done anything significant to put them ahead of the imitators.
Re:don't have TiVo... Yet (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, what could be done is each device that gets a title registers with the seeder, and it will DL/UL titles via swarming (Bittorrent) from the other devices that have/want the same titles.
Securing the network can be tricky, sure - but that part ill leave to tivo/netflix/hackers.
Re:don't have TiVo... Yet (Score:3, Interesting)
What's the revenue model for the SDK? (Score:3, Interesting)
But that's me. I'm a geek. How are they going to make money from that, does anybody know? Is there a plan to start buying applications from the community and selling them as add on services or something? Or perhaps licensing them so that I as an author make some money based on how many people subscribe to my application? (Imagine the horror show of technical support THAT would be!)
Surely they can't have gone through all this trouble just to keep we coders thrilled. How does this scale to the larger audience and get Tivo back in the game?
What's so bad about TiVo failing? (Score:2, Interesting)
Anyone buying TiVo wants two things:
1. The TiVo brand. Can you even name another PVR brand? Nobody says "I've got to PVR that show". TiVo is the ONLY product with any name recognition in the marketplace.
2. The TiVo functionality. As anyone who as ever used one knows, there's no comparison to other PVRs. It's got a great interface and is remarkably stable (not perfect, but pretty close).
To mess with either of those threatens to devalue what they've purchased.
Sure, there might be some rough spots when the new owners cow to pressure from content providers, but ultimately the marketplace wins on these things and it will become incrasingly hard for content providers to explain why they want to sue distributors for allowing their customers to do what they've come to expect.
Re:About TiVo (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, there are tools right now that will let you rip the DRM off of the
) but those aren't native to tivo. I'm sure a 'simpler' approach will show up soon. They (Tivo) has also talked in the past about transfering shows back to the Tivo.
As far as a subscription model:
Originally the subscriptions covered the box being operational.
With the new DVD+Tivo units the subscription is optional to provide the "full" functionality (14 day program guide instead of 3 day, and season pass/program search functionality).
Besides the "basic Tivo functionality" the same subscription fee (or lifetime membership), now includes using the Tivo to view pictures streamed off your PC (great for digital slide shows of trips), and streaming MP3s off of a computer.
Oh, and the same subscription fee also now provides access to Tivo2Go (as flawed as you feel it is, I can still watch recorded programs on my Computer while my wife watches TV, and on a 100MB wired connection, programs recorded at the "Medium" quality I usually use transfer at about 2x1
Tivo also just unveiled an API so that people can develop applications for the Tivo similar to the Picture and Music viewer (with an eye toward other applications).
Gee
Yes
Tivo will at the very worst be aquired by someone else. The existing technology/patents/customer base is too valuable to pass up.
Sorry for a bit of a "rant" not directed at you in particular, but those who continue to bash Tivo for the choices they made to stay in buisness with no accounting of the good things they already provide.
Re:don't have TiVo... Yet (Score:1, Interesting)
The reporting and recording of optionally viewable "showcase" commercials have always been there, afaik. The manual describes how to opt out of the reporting if you'd like. The sponsored commercials (a few a month) are recorded to a part of the disk reserved for that purpose, so they don't take away from the normal recording space.
Fast forwarding is not interrupted to show commercials. What has been described (but not yet implemented) is display of a banner paid for by an advertiser during a commercial that you're fast forwarding through. So you might see "press thumbs up for more information about Bud" at the top of the screen as a beer commercial speeds by.
Do you have a TiVo? You make a good point about paying up front for a service whose features might change later but diminish it by describing changes that didn't happen.
TiVo probably deserves to die (Score:3, Interesting)
First, key features that loyal customers raved about have been removed from more recent products (preseumably as a result of pressure from content-owners). So we have a product that in some ways is getting worse rather than better.
Second, I find the interface quite clumsy. (Sure, it's PRETTY.) It seems like every operation has extra, pointless steps (many of which are confirming non-destructive operations). There is no undo (you can't undelete a program you just deleted in error). The remote control is almost axially symmetric, meaning that in the dark it's quite easy to point it in exactly the wrong direction.
Third, the out-of-box experience is terrible. It initially needs several hours just to start working (I have no idea why) and it initially incorrectly identified where I live and refused to download the right TV timetable. Even when this was corrected, it continues to record infomercials and label them "Scrubs".
Finally, TiVo persistently tries to sell stuff to you.
TiVo's problems, I think, lie in (a) a failure to decide who their customer is and serve their needs and (b) a lack of attention to usability.
Item (a) is a strategic problem (they seem torn between wanting to partner with content providers, wanting to become a content provider and sell their own advertising space, and wanting to become a video napster 1.0), whereas (b) is tactical (they simply need to stop paying attention to their fawning fans and do some serious self-criticism).