Daylight Savings Change Proposed 1392
AveryRegier writes "CNN is reporting that Congress has added an amendment to the Energy Bill to extend daylight-savings time by two months. They expect to "save the equivalent of 10,000 barrels of oil a day." How long it would take for the associated energy savings to overcome the cost to make, test, and deploy the necessary code changes? How would the cost of this change compare with Y2K? Does most date routines' reliance on GMT make this just an issue of presenting the right time to the user?"
No problem (Score:5, Informative)
Living on the eastern edge of a time zone, I would love for DST to be extended.
I could be wrong... (Score:5, Informative)
I'll take the daylight (Score:5, Informative)
I gotta say that driving to work in the dark and driving home from work in the dark is not a prticularly gratifying experience. In fact it's downright depressing.
Interestingly enough the times have been changed in the fairly recent past (according to the US Army [army.mil]:
During the "energy crisis" years, Congress enacted earlier starting dates for daylight time. In 1974, daylight time began on 6 January and in 1975 it began on 23 February. After those two years the starting date reverted back to the last Sunday in April. In 1986, a law was passed permanently shifting the starting date of daylight time to the first Sunday in April, beginning in 1987. The ending date of daylight time has not been subject to such changes, and has remained the last Sunday in October.
No... (Score:1, Informative)
Embedded Systems (Score:3, Informative)
In every embedded system I have worked on, we always dealt with time in UTC or ticks from a predefined epoch. Presenting local time to a human was always up to the system communicating with the embedded system, as was converting time to UTC or ticks for sending to the embedded system.
Re:How does the US differ from EU ? (Score:3, Informative)
While European nations have been taking advantage of the time change for decades, in 1996 the European Union (EU) standardized an EU-wide "summertime period." The EU version of Daylight Saving Time runs from the last Sunday in March through the last Sunday in October. During the summer, Russia's clocks are two hours ahead of standard time. For example, Moscow standard time (UTC+3) is about a half-hour ahead of local mean time (UTC+2:30); this is about the same situation as Detroit, whose standard time (UTC-5) is also about a half-hour ahead of local mean time (UTC-5:32). During the winter, all 11 of the Russian time zones remain an hour ahead of standard time. With their high latitude, the two hours of Daylight Saving Time really helps to save daylight. In the Southern Hemisphere where summer comes in December, Daylight Saving Time is observed from October to March. (The clock at above right is viewed from within the Musée d'Orsay in Paris.)
Yet another spelling error in the headline... (Score:2, Informative)
"The official spelling is Daylight Saving Time, not Daylight SavingS Time."
Btw, there's lots of other cool info about DST on that page, e.g.: In the U.S., the changeover time was chosen to be 2 am, when most people are at home and, originally, the time when the fewest trains were running. This is practical and minimizes disruption. It is late enough to minimally affect bars and restaurants, and prevent the day from switching to yesterday (which would be confusing). It is early enough that the entire continental U.S. has switched by daybreak, and the changeover occurs before most early shift workers and early churchgoers (particularly on Easter).
Also, Hawaii doesn't observe DST. I guess they get enough sunlight as it is. Either that or something to do with being so much closer to the equator.
Re:Quick Question (Score:3, Informative)
Re:How does the US differ from EU ? (Score:1, Informative)
It also meant that during the winter months kids would be waking up and going to school in the dark which is not safe in rural areas.
I also find that I personally have an easier time waking up in daylight than I do in darkness. Therefore, I think this is all for show and I hope that they come to their senses.
Re:Wrong Target (Score:5, Informative)
Er, hate to say it but it's not Military either. Highest percentage is the "Department of Health and Human Services" [kowaldesign.com] (643.9 billion), followed by "Social Security Administration" (583.5 billion), "Department of Defense"+"Department of Veterans Services" (475.4+68.3=543.7 billion), "Department of the Treasury" (441.2 billion). Also, that military retirement program is just like any other pension plan people recieve. It also comes out of the "Department of Defense" budget.
Stop listening to the republican on your television please.
Stop listening to the democrat on yours.
Re:how about just.... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:He's not kidding. (Score:3, Informative)
How? Maybe it did during WWII, but have you ever worked in an office building where the lighting schedule was so determined? I.e. fewer lights on during work hours that are also daylight hours...
An extra hour of daylight is useful because it means that one can go do things out-doors after work. But I hardly see that as an electrity deman issue.
Re:Wrong Target (Score:3, Informative)
I listen to the Libertarians and Greens too. They're small but don't lie as much. I listen to them first, then move on to vote for a Democrat 'cause our system is.... inefficent. Yeah, that's the right word.
Re:Why not go to DST permanently? (Score:5, Informative)
A lot of people have responded to your post with a variety of reasons on why not to go to a permanent time. All my life I have lived in Saskatchewan (just north of Montana and North Dakota). We do not change times, and are one of the few places in North America that doesn't. Usually every spring there's talk about it and without fail, the government decides to just leave things alone.
Yes, this means that children to go to school when its dark. No, this typically does not mean that more are getting hit by cars. Farmers typically don't start work at a given time, they start with the dawn and finish when its to dark to see properly. The only reason they worry about the time is when they need parts to continue harvest/seeding/etc. Most parts places around here are starting to have extended hours during the seeding and harvest seasons.
It does cause a little confusion at times. Most of our TV channels will start an hour earlier/later. If you're doing business outside of the province you have to be aware of the local time.
Personally, I love the fact that regardless of the time of year, I can say that we are GMT -6. When a story gets posted that mentions an ecllipse or meteor shower, I can quickly determine the best viewing times from almost any summary.
Re:Creating a Boom? (Score:4, Informative)
The Fed did loosen the money supply, but they did also post 9/11, and it's still ultra inexpensive to borrow, but companies aren't because they lack faith that they'll be able to pay back loans based upon exected revenue forecasts (geez, I'm a geek, why do I know this stuff?, oh, right, I love econ :) anyway, fear of Y2K drove spending, because fear of being stranded was more compelling than fear they couldn't pay back any loans.
Re:Statistics!! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Creating a Boom? (Score:3, Informative)
But's thats all within the world of computers.
Re:Why not go to DST permanently? (Score:4, Informative)
Here is a...semi-serious piece on it
http://www.nationalreview.com/miller/miller200504
"Congress passed the first DST law in 1918 and repealed it the next year. Franklin Delano Roosevelt imposed year-round DST for three years during the Second World War. In 1966, Congress approved a uniform DST standard for the whole country. In the 1970s, Richard Nixon had the nation go on DST for 15 consecutive months in order to conserve energy. The last president to modify DST was Ronald Reagan, who advanced DST's start date to the first Sunday in April."
"As Michael Downing points out in his new book, Spring Forward: The Annual Madness of Daylight Saving Time, urban businessmen were a major force behind the adoption of DST in the United States. They thought daylight would encourage workers to go shopping on their way home. They also tried to make a case for agriculture, though they didn't bother to consult any actual farmers. One pamphlet argued that DST would benefit the men and women who worked the land because "most farm products are better when gathered with dew on. They are firmer, crisper, than if the sun has dried the dew off." At least that was the claim of the Boston Chamber of Commerce, chaired by department-store magnate A. Lincoln Filene."
"We're also informed that DST helps conserve energy, apparently because people arriving home when the sun is still up don't switch on their lights. Didn't it occur to anybody that maybe they compensate by switching them on earlier in the morning? Moreover, people who arrive home from work an hour earlier during the hot summer months are probably more prone to turning up their air conditioners. According to Downing, the petroleum industry once was "an ardent and generous supporter" of DST because it believed people would hop in their cars and drive for pleasure -- and guzzle more gas.
But the very worst thing about DST is that it's bad for your health. According to Stanley Coren, a sleep expert at the University of British Columbia, the number of traffic accidents and fatal industrial mishaps increase on the Monday after we spring forward. The reason, presumably, is because losing even a single hour of sleep over the weekend makes a lot of people a bit drowsier on what we might usefully call Black Monday. Unfortunately, there's no compensating effect of a super-safe Monday as we go off DST and "fall back" in the autumn."
http://www.mcmaster.ca/inabis98/occupational/core
Change Implications (Score:5, Informative)
Answering the original question, I work in the power industry as a developer. I can watch the local load curve and do a bit of my own research about supposed "energy savings" by artificially making the sun set later in the day. BoooOogus. The savings would be low.
You all know this: The devil is in the details. The programming impact would be larger than anticipated. Power is usually tracking in "hour ending" and various participants use a 23 and 25-hour day when necessary, defined as "relative hour of the day". Because of this, date conversions abound and the the "first sunday in april/last sunday in october" algorithm is in quite a few places. The impact would be high.
I think it's political hot air. Why not just ask people to pay more for oil? The markets know how to react.
Benjamin Franklin Essay (Score:4, Informative)
Definitely not a new idea.
Re:Why not go to DST permanently? (Score:4, Informative)
I've heard this arguement before but I've never really understood it. It's not like the cows know what time it is. IMHO farmers will get up when there is enough light to get done whatever needs doing. This whole thing sounds a lot like "get the stereo that goes up to 11 caus it's louder".
Re:Statistics!! (Score:3, Informative)
10,000 bbls/day * $56 / bbl * 2 months * 30 days / month
= $34,720,000 in extra savings.
$34 mil is really not that much money to a country.
I wonder if the cost of changing systems over for the sake prolonging DST for that minute amount of savings is worth it.
Re:Creating a Boom? (Score:5, Informative)
Yup, all 3 failed within seconds.
Re:Why not go to DST permanently? (Score:5, Informative)
Indiana still doesn't do DST (due to the farm lobby), but, IIRC, they're trying to work it through their legislature. Whenever I go to my mom's in the summer I always laugh at them because the sun rises around 5 a.m. in June / July.
According to Wikipedia [wikipedia.org], most farmers actually hate DST (as others have mentioned). And the reason that Indiana doesn't do the whole DST thing has more to do with the fact that the state is divided between time zones as it is.
But hey, if you want to blame the guys that grow the food you eat, go ahead.
Indiana and Arizona DST (Score:1, Informative)
Clark, Dearborn, Floyd, Harrison, and Ohio counties observe Eastern Standard Time with DST (5 hours after UTC, 4 hours in the summer.)
Gibson, Jasper, Lake, LaPorte, Newton, Porter, Posey, Spencer, Vanderburgh and Warrick counties use Central Standard Time with DST (6 hours after GMT, 5 in the summer.)
The remaining 76 county all observe Eastern Standard Time year-round, with no DST (5 hours after UTC year-round.)
More here: http://www.mccsc.edu/time.html [mccsc.edu]
Also, those parts of Arizona which are part of the Navajo land do observe DST.
more here: http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/ [webexhibits.org]
Urban legand (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, a flourescent takes more power for a few cycles when it strikes.
The total energy taken to strike the arc in the light is less than a few seconds of runtime.
Re:I'm still tired and coffee'd up to my eyeballs! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I'm still tired and coffee'd up to my eyeballs! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why not go to DST permanently? (Score:3, Informative)
My 12 years of public school involved a 40 mile school bus ride each way. With all the stops, that was at least two hours each day on a school bus.
Re:Arizona (Score:3, Informative)
As someone who grew up in AZ, I always went the other day. I loved going out with my friends after work in the summer: it was around 80 degrees, dry, and a nice cool breeze most of all the time. It was also 11:30 at night.
Re:Why not go to DST permanently? (Score:3, Informative)
The 'war time' being referred to in the grandparent of this post clearly refers to the U.S. as this thread is about a bill in the U.S. Congress.
Thus, the parent of this post is nonsensical.
Re:I wrote my Congressman (Score:3, Informative)
Sure it is. Its called the Uniform Time Act of 1966. There were many changes to DST (as well as myths). Various locations refused to abide by it. Finally a 'compromise' was hashed out and in 1966 the Uniform Time Act was passed to codify the compromise. Part of the compromise was that Arizona was exempted and part of Indiana could do their own thing.
Re:how about just.... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Changing careers right now! (Score:2, Informative)
Since GMT is an obsolete time scale (for what 30 years now), I think you will be hard-pressed finding an official time keeping source that measures time by the definition of the second in GMT. Your NTP time server will get its time from master time servers which report time in the UTC (Coordinated Universal Time) time scale which is derived from measurements in the TAI (International Atomic Time) time scale.
The basis for civil time is an atomic time scale (GMT is an astronomical based time scale). Thus, the correct "units" for time on the prime meridian is UTC (Coordinated Universal Time) which is derived from TAI.
Go to any official place that measures and reports time and you will see the complete absence of the words GMT (except for the BBC who just can't give it up).
GMT is an abused time scale used by the layman just like people use kilograms (a unit of mass not weight) to report weight without the qualifying "force" on the end. The same is true with calories in food. That one-calorie diet coke is really 1000 calories by the SI definition of the unit. The inference in this case is a Dietary Calorie (=1000 calories)
Re:how about just.... (Score:3, Informative)
Flourescents use a large amount of energy when initially starting up.
That's all a bunch of hogwash. Florescent lights take more energy to turn on for maybe half a second or two. So if you're going to turn off the lights for a minute or two, you'd save energy keeping them on. Beyong that, turn them off.
Additionally, those lights are helping to heat the building at night and keep the heating system from coming on (even the little bit of flourescent helps)
They do, but the heating system is actually engineered to produce heat, not light. Obviously that makes it a lot more efficient. Electric heat is by far more expensive than gas heat (which is what most heating systems use). It's also a lot more efficient in energy usage to go from gas-> heat than from (coal,gas, etc) -> heat -> electricty -> power_lines-> office -> heat.
Another thing on the lights is that it is cheaper (in many places) to leave them on, than to pay someone to go around and turn them all on and off in the evening/morning.
Telling your employees to turn off the lights at night is mighty inexpensive. From what I understand most people have mastered the high-tech lightswitch.
It also (slightly, but signifcantly enough) degrades their lifespan causing them to need to be replaced sooner.
This is far less than the lifespan lost by keeping the lights on.
Re:Creating a Boom? (Score:5, Informative)
I sense a need for my Mad Googling Skills. LordPixie, to the rescue !!
After wasting the last 15 minutes of my life. (OK. Fine. My employer's time/money.) I have determined that this little story is not apocryphal bullshit !
For example, see this [garynorth.com] little site. It not only covers the anecdote you mentioned, but also includes a link to a (now defunct) CNN article. Further references can be found by simply googling for Koskinen "three computers" [google.com].
I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that LordPixie usually charges for the services of his Madcap Googling Skills. This time was free. =)
--LordPixie
A Better Idea (Score:5, Informative)
Simply mandating that cities turn off every other street light after 2300 hours would save tens of thousands of barrels per day.
Re:Ban SUVs = Save More Oil Than Expanding DST (Score:3, Informative)
That's not correct. In the US over 2/3 the oil is used for transportation. Futhermore, the amount of oil used for heating has been dropping every year (in real quantities - barrels/day, not just percentage) since 1978, while the amount used for transportation is growing. source. [doe.gov] It is relatively easy to convert stationary applications to use another fuel, but we don't (yet) have a suitable mobile fuel that is as economical as oil.
No, just outdated info (Score:3, Informative)
Not really an urban myth. It was actually true in the early days of flourescents, and that's how the "myth" got started. Modern designs are much better.
However, turning the bulb off will shorten its life. It seems that bulbs only deteriorate when powering on. So one can calculate [lightingdesignlab.com] the break-even point based on bulb and electricity costs.
Re:I'm still tired and coffee'd up to my eyeballs! (Score:3, Informative)
Lawmakers with automakers in their districts led the fight to defeat Waxman's proposal, arguing it was backdoor way to require U.S. mini-vans, sport utility vehicles and pick-up trucks to improve their fuel efficiency."
Re:He's not kidding. (Score:4, Informative)
We change it twice a year... (Score:3, Informative)
Get the tzdata for Brazil and check it out some time. Real funny. Hah Hah.
As a matter of fact, one something like that did happen. The Papa (yes, the one who just died) was arriving in Brazil in the first or second DST week, and international TV stations covering it found out they bought the wrong time slot on the satellite. So, screw us, they changed DST's date.
Because of all that, honestly, US plight is ridiculous. No decent system works with local time instead of absolute time, and Windows doesn't work anyway (EVEN if the date didn't change here every year, they mixed the sundays it begins/ends -- hell, does Outlook work with DST yet?).
Pay Per Use vs. public good (Score:1, Informative)
Gas taxes aren't quite a "pay per use" with regards to roads. Even if you don't drive, you still gain benefits from public roads. Do you get products delivered to you? Do you bicycle? Are you in an area with ambulance service? Do you buy products at a store that has goods shipped to them? It used to be people very rarely bought goods that came from more than a day's walk away. That was about how far you could ship produce economically.
Plus, don't hybrids tend to be light cars? You'd think that a hybrid vehicle would probably put less wear and tear on a road than a tractor trailer, pickup truck, or SUV.
Though, I'd expect in most parts of the U.S. (those with seasons), most damage to roads comes from the weather - not cars. (If that were the case, you'd expect everybody to pay equally - not a gas tax)
Re:10,000 barrels of oil a day??? (Score:2, Informative)
In Europe- every carmaker i know. Including BMW, Audi, Ford(!), Opel, Subaru, Toyota, Honda etc etc etc.
Re:Wrong Target (Score:2, Informative)
HHS only receives ~65 billion dollars. Please see table S-3. You seem to be off by one order of magnitude. Who is www.kowaldesign.com?
Re:Get rid of it entirely (Score:2, Informative)
Absolutely right. Its non-uniform implementation across various timezones around the world will prove an increasingly major headache for global communications and commerce.
The earth is divided into 24 longitudinal bands. Stick to them and don't fuck around with time to suit your own cozy locale, for you do not live in a vacuum.
Sydney, Australia (Score:2, Informative)
Not Y2K (Score:3, Informative)
Changes all the time (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Oh. Dear. God. (Score:4, Informative)
Nonsense. In the summer months, the sun rises earlier (and sets later too), so getting up earlier makes perfect sense, because the day DOES get longer. A blanket obviously doesn't get longer, so it's a lowsy analogy.
Because just being awake doesn't cut it... You need stores to open earlier, your own work schedule to start an hour earlier, etc. Changing all clocks is by far the easiest way to change everything.
The fact that most people haven't spent hours of their lives pondering the reason we have DST, doesn't have anything to do with the validity of the idea.