The Sony/MP3 Saga Continues 629
Renegade Lisp writes "Sony's rolling out their new line of flash-based music players to the
market these days. More stylish than ever, they surely look like a
serious attempt to regain territory lost to the iPod, and perhaps even
to create the Walkman of the 21st century. And it looks like Sony has
finally given in to consumer pressure: these new "MP3 players" can
finally play MP3 natively, not just Sony's proprietary ATRAC format.
But wait -- you cannot just put your MP3s onto the device, you have to
run them through Sony's obfuscation software first. The obfuscated
files, when installed properly on the device, can be played. But you
can't just move them around, share them with your friends, whatever.
Well, of course the obfuscation scheme has already been broken by a
brave hacker. But is this really the way to create the "Network
Walkman" of the 21st century? Sony, please wake up!"
Egh (Score:3, Insightful)
We don't want something hip and stylish. We want something that works well.
Oh yeah, I've never personally been able to understand the whole hooplah over the Ipod shuffle, or even the Ipod mini? 1 gigabyte? 5 gigabytes? Do you have ANY idea how old the songs get on your mp3 player if you keep hearing stuff over and over again like a radio station?
I suppose for top 40 teenie boppers, that's okay. Not for me.
20 gig and 40 gig are good sizes, respectfully. The more, the better.
Sony's designs are ugly, too. I barely tolerate the fact that my ipod is white. It's bad enough that Bono is pushing the player I own. Now, Sony comes out with Grape, Cherry and Orange flavors. Ugh!
Why can't they make an mp3 player that's like Nyquil. In the words of Denis Leary, that "original green death fucking flavor, but it doesn't matter..." If an mp3 player is green-death nyquil colored, but has a great interface, and does all I want in regards to playability and reliability, that's all I need.
I'm sure everyone else's priorities will be similar after they buy an orange mp3 player, and throw it against the wall in rage when it doesn't do what they want it to do.
Who is the sore thumb? (Score:5, Insightful)
But then again, maybe I think too much. All these gadgets are sold for brand rather than technology, most consumers really don't care whether or not they can shares songs with others using this device, they can simply lend CDs out like they've been doing with tapes.
As long as Sony has designed a good GUI that users can (1) pop in the CDs, (2) select songs, (3) transfer to the player, its technical responsibility is done.
The more important job is to make it look and feel cool so that you want one if your friend got one.
This is why I won't buy Sony audio stuff ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I was actually comparison shopping for an MP3 player this week, and I ruled out the Sony 'network walkman' because I don't trust them to play nicely.
Just IMO but... (Score:5, Insightful)
if this Sony DRM stuff even requires a SINGLE extra click, then imo it has failed and has no chance of making me move away from my iPod (even though the designs I've seen look very nice).
You People don't get it (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Egh (Score:1, Insightful)
I want an MP3 player... (Score:5, Insightful)
2. No proprietary formats required.
3. No "DRM."
4. Reliable, built to last, long battery life.
5. Connects to my machine without drivers, i.e. acts like an external hard disk.
Please, just that. And I'll buy it. No need for fancy buttons or stylishness. I'm currently using an HD Lyra 20GB--it satisfies most of those. Its damn cheap (costs under 100USD now), it uses plain old MP3s, it doesn't even support most DRM, its built like a tank, and acts like an external hard disk. However it still requires drivers, isn't very reliable, and has mediocre battery life.
Dear Sony, (Score:5, Insightful)
The genie is already out of the bottle. He's not going back in. Give up.
Sincerely,
Everyone
aint gonna happen (Score:5, Insightful)
Having to use Sony's software to add songs...isn't that what you do with iPod, add songs through iTunes?
Welcome to the Brave New World.
And furthermore (Score:5, Insightful)
Crazy times.
Re:Egh (Score:5, Insightful)
You are not the target audience.
I suppose for top 40 teenie boppers, that's okay. Not for me
Now you're starting to get it.
I barely tolerate the fact that my ipod is white. It's bad enough that Bono is pushing the player I own.
Ahh....you already drank the koolaid. The marketing dept's job is done.
Re:DRM (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Egh (Score:4, Insightful)
As for the colors and design, I agree that many of them are ugly. However, according to your own statements that doesn't matter one bit as long as it functions well. So find one you like, use it, and quit worrying if my model is pink and fallic-shaped.
Re:Egh (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: None of them get it (Score:5, Insightful)
- Create digital music store (should have done this before Napster taught us all that we could easily get music for free with little risk)
- Establish digital management rules within range of the "Home Use" interpretation of Fair Use (for the curious, your Fair Use rights are established in US Code under Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 106 or 107, I forget which. I think it's 107, 106 is Copyright holder rights; it's worth noting here that "home use" was not originally part of the Fair Use clause, but it has since been interpretted to fall under its umbrella)
- Make use of store convenient and reliable enough to be measurably superior than scrounging p2p networks for uncorrupted files.
- Establish a cost such that the added convenience, legality, and reliability of your digital music store is worth paying for in lieu of the sort of dumpster-diving you sometimes have to do on p2p
- Include some additional benefit for buying instead of stealing, such as a "frequent flyer" type program that rewards you with the option to get ahold of preview tracks earlier than other people (granted, these all just end up on p2p so it becomes moot), discounts on concert tickets and fan merchandise, access to reserved ticketing for popular concerts, and less restrictive DRM for loyal customers
- This part is critical: respect the customer, respect his rights. Do not assume everybody who buys your music is doing so to put in on eMule. Establish that you trust your customer to be a good consumer.
The profit here may or may not be significant, but a combinaton of a revenue stream plus reduced losses from piracy might make it worth the effort.Don't bother telling me that piracy doesn't actually cost them anything, it doesn't matter whether it does or not as long as they think it does. If they think it does, and they want to reduce/eliminate it, far better than they do so by leveraging technology to our benefit than try to get their business model legislated.
Re:Egh (Score:2, Insightful)
From TFA:
So because these new Sony players does not have anything GREAT new feature they just fall in the really big set of the-others-that-are-not-iPods list of players.
We want both (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally I want both. Only to the /. world would those seem like mutually-exclusive options.
That said, Sony is such a classic example of interesting design that completely ignores major sore points in implementation, it isn't even funny. I'd have one of their tiny upright-model camcorders right now, if they hadn't required their own special compression format for the resulting movies a couple of years ago. Ah well -- ended up with a different make, which then allowed me to make the choice to grab up a cheap and oh so handy Mac to edit on, and so on. If I'd taken the little Sony it'd have been endless compromises just to stick with their proprietary formatting.
Here we have them requiring me to bend over backwards to implement a sort of personal DRM on my music files. How much more clumsy than Apple's iTunes-purchased files is that? Major, major disincentive to buying for me. Big sore point. That's what they're not "getting." Stylish I like just fine.
Oggs? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Egh (Score:5, Insightful)
Contrast Sony where you have to jump through hoops and have all the check-in check-out and (previously) convert to ATRAC bullzhit... Sony are frankly GONE as a player in this market (and I like their products, I'm typing this on a Vaio.)
Dear Sony Corp (Score:4, Insightful)
Sincerely
Consumer and common sense
PS: good riddance and good luck, you'll need it
Apple also Obfuscates... (Score:2, Insightful)
But they do obfuscate.
From a PURE business perspective... (Score:5, Insightful)
I simply do not understand why music downloads have not been embraced by the people who own the music. They are being extremely short-sighted.
Re:Egh (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case, I think Sony is probably toast. Apple is the market leader, and it is doubtful they'll give that up. Sony has produced too little too late. And their idea of making the PSP a portable movie player is probably not going to pan out either. I would like to see them do an iTunes-like movie purchase app, though. I don't know about anyone else, but I use my computer as my television. Being able to purchase movies online would mean I could finally stop visiting that *E$#$#$ Blockbuster.
Re:Who is the sore thumb? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's pretty simple with Sony. On one hand you have bright engineers doing whizbang stuff with electronics. On the other, you have the SonyBMG member of the RIAA, and Sony Pictures, member of the MPAA. Imagine designing a MP3 player, then imaging having Sony music and Sony pictures legal advisors looking over your shoulder telling you to add this DRM feature and that anti-piracy feature... you can imagine how screwed up that would be, and the products definitely reflect this dichotomy.
Re:Egh (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:They're part of the RIAA, are you surprised? (Score:3, Insightful)
Then you've got the label people pushing Sony's attorneys and reps at the RIAA to get this legislation done!
The power people give to the RIAA is amazing.
You do realize that the RIAA is paid by Sony as a trade group to protect _Sony's_ (and the other's that pay the RIAA) interests, right?
Sony is under no obligation to the RIAA whatsoever. They _voluntarily_ are a member of the RIAA.
It kills me how much power this subordinate organization has achieved over the the past couple of years. They first were known for things like establishing the playback equalization of LPs, more recently things like voluntary and standardized "parental warnings" on albums, and for periodically awarding an artist for their achievements in their record sales by awarding gold, platinum, double platinum, etc milestones.
Then, I guess the RIAA hired an unknown buy very overzealous lawyer that is very persistent in maintaining their job security by perpetuating lawsuits that regardless of the outcome of the suit, the lawyer will win.
Please keep in mind that essentially the RIAA is impotent. They do not produce records, they don't do that much, but basically take the bad rap on behalf of the record labels themselves.
But who wants to use ATRAC3plus? (Score:2, Insightful)
The really sad part (Score:3, Insightful)
And they could have done this in 1999, long before Apple got rolling with iTunes. Sony, you screwed up big time.
Re:Egh (Score:5, Insightful)
s/hip/usable/
Seriously... the usability of an iPod (in addition to it's "hipness") is what keeps people using it. Not talking about forward/back/shuffle buttons... most players do that well. I'm talking about iTunes (and sync). Ironically, Apple's hardware sells because it's software is so good. Why do people even care about the iMac? Because of OSX.
Re:You People don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Hardly. I own close to 5,000 legally purchased CD's. I don't copy purchased CD's except to create personal copies for the car and the beach (cuz CD's are hardly indestructable, and catalogs don't stay in print forever).
The copy protection means I can't play Sony CDs at work (because loading their software violates corporate policy against loading unapproved software).
So then maybe I decide to put a copy on an iPod so I can listen that way. But wait, if you have a PC you can't do that either. But they insist someday this will work once they figure out the kinks.
And of course certain DRM'ed CD's wont play on certain CD players at all. How swell is that?
DRM is a pathetic failure at stopping pirates - making a copy is merely inconvenient.
ALL DRM does is angers law abiding consumers by making their purchase less valuable to them.
Buy indie. Tell Sony where they can stuff it...
While it pains me I've stopped buying their stuff. This hurts artists I like, but I've got enough records that passing on a few artists from the Sony family of labels is a small price to pay.
Re:Egh (Score:5, Insightful)
most people don't give a shit about feature XYZ they just want to play their music.
Well, yeah. Until they've owned their iPod a few months and hear from the friends about the various aftermarket add-ons they can get.
Re:Egh (Score:2, Insightful)
We can now store 1GB of data on a Hi-MiniDisc in high quality. Hours and hours of music. Not MP3 quality, but standardized ATRAC3 or higher quality.
Most of all the latest MiniDisc units to come out in 2004 allow uploading and downloading audio to and from a PC.
These Sony MiniDisc products for the most part are aimed at audiophiles and this is why Sony is late to adopt the inferior MP3 format into its proprietary and superior audio system.
Re:Digital Rights Management for rights other than (Score:2, Insightful)
Although it would be nice if Apple supported ogg...
Re:Egh (Score:5, Insightful)
This was a fairly clear case of "We don't want our customers to connect our stuff to our competitors' stuff; everyone should just by Sony stuff". Not exactly an unusual attitude among market leaders, but it does show a certain amount of contempt for what customers want.
Their munging of the MP3 standard is pretty much the same deal. "We support MP3. Well, actually, it's not quite MP3, but it's almost the same thing. We've just tweaked it a bit so our stuff won't interoperate with other MP3 stuff."
The best approach would be to tell them that you're not buying their gadget because it's not compatible with your other gadgets. While you're at it, say the same thing to Microsoft and any other company you can find that's doing this sort of thing to you. What we want is a world where everything connects to everything else, and anything you buy works anywhere that you want to use it.
they DO get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Other tech companies that aren't creating content don't give a rats ass about Sony's video and music divisions. however, the people who run sony are composed of all these competing groups and their interests naturally conflict, because the hardware group has to compete against other tech companies that, as I noted, don't give a fat rats ass about Sony's special IP interests.
As a consequence, in order to placate the Music and Video divisions, the engineers had to come up with a way to allow people to move mp3s to their MP3 player while, at the same time, preventing people fro musing the Player as a transference device for sharing. If it's proprietary, all te better to placate the PHBs in hardware who never saw a proprietary system they disliked (viz Minidisk, beta, ATRAK, etc.)
The good thing about this is: Sony's gear will always be hobbled by having to drag the retards in the Music and Video divisions along, which allows other companies to come in and fill the void without having the 3,000 lb sony gorilla pooping all over the market.
RS
Re:They're part of the RIAA, are you surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually the pity and irony is: they're more likely two distinct, separate, exclusive board meetings. One for hardware, one for music label. (and technically a third for movie studio / multimedia label.) Note: I am not speaking from experience, merely word of mouth feedback. IANASE (I am not a Sony Employee.)
Sony, the electronics manufacturer, has its own agenda. Sony Music (now officially Sony-BMG Music) has an obvious other agenda. This gets worse too, because the Japanese company doing all the real innovation in design of electronics products, etc. has next to no contact with the US / North American one. Some products trickle down, yes, but not nearly as many of the 'cool' ones they put out in Japan.
Wired had a fantastic article almost two years ago now called The Civil War Inside Sony [wired.com]. Definitely worth a read.
One should not confuse the two (electronics manufacturer and music label.) Just because you see the "Sony" brand on an mp3 player doesn't mean at ALL that Sony Music had anything to do with it.
If the company was really smart they would co-brand Sony electronics products with Sony music artists. That's the biggest no brainer ever and they have yet to do anything like this. (Not that I would buy a "Jennifer Lopez MP3 player" but I'm sure somebody would.)
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Re:Egh (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:aint gonna happen (Score:2, Insightful)
> songs...isn't that what you do with
> iPod, add songs through iTunes?
All you have to do with iTunes is tell it what folder you keep your MP3s in and it slurps them up and syncs them with the iPod. No conversion to another format, and no DRM added to your files.
If you buy songs from iTunes, however, they are protected with DRM, but you can still (1) download them to your iPod (or any other iPods that might mysteriously end up plugged in to your computer), (2) burn them to CD, and (3) share them with other computers in the household (specific numbers and limitations to this apply, of course). I don't buy from iTunes frequently, but I don't find the restrictions unreasonable.
I didn't see details on Sony's site, but it sounds like they might actually be converting your MP3s to their own format before allowing them to be transfered.
Re:Egh (Score:3, Insightful)
I feel your pain. It's too bad, too, as I have a 1970-something studio monitor from Sony that still works, and a... probably 1970-something Sony 3/4U deck that also still works. They just don't build things like they used to, IMHO. Maybe it's just me.
Re:Just IMO but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Egh (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't know if it is this way for anyone else, but for me iTunes is extremely unreliable. It crashes half way through many attempted file transfers. iHate iTunes. Fortunately 3rd party apps have made the iPod usable for me.
iTunes is why I will never own a mac. It epitomizes Apple's lust for control over its customers more than mere trolling ever could. Proprietary DRM, intentionally shut out other companies music stores. Proprietary hardware, intentionally keep me from using commodity hardware in favor of apple's super expensive hardware.
While I'm bitching about Apple, does anyone else's iPod consistantly freeze up when it tries to play certain mp3's. Mine (generation before newest) has 6 or 7 songs which cause the iPod to just freeze and read the hard drive till eventually after tapping the next button for like 30 seconds it finally moves on to a different mp3. This is really annoying since every time it does this I lose 30 minutes to an hour of playing time out of the battery. Do the new generation ones do this? I dig the scroll wheel but there is no way I'm gunna buy another iPod if this bug remains.
Re:Egh (Score:3, Insightful)
I have 40GB Nomad Jukebox with about 3GB remaining, and while I don't listen to every track in a sitting, I like the fact that I don't have to switch the tracks on it. Also, I don't need to pick and choose what music I have on there because invariably, I will get the urge to hear the Theme Song from Shaft as soon I've removed it from the player's (or is it playa's?) hard drive.
I put the entire list on shuffle and love the result. My friends think it's a train wreck. "How can you listen to punk followed by bluegrass, followed by Classical? What do you mean "Living Loving Maid" doesn't follow "Heartbreaker"?
For the past year and a half, I've had an hour (minimum) commute to work and I've really appreciated having a wide selection of music at my fingertips.
Re:Egh (Score:2, Insightful)