MS Calls On Kids to Stop Thought Thieves 709
theodp writes "Microsoft is calling all UK kids aged 14-17 to enter its Thought Thieves Competition. Remember kids, finalists must agree to formally license all intellectual property rights in their film on terms acceptable to Microsoft. And don't forget to download your free Thought Thieves Poster!"
Don't bash them on this one (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Don't bash them on this one (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you're right, those kids will learn the most from their own mistakes.
I'm speechless. (Score:5, Insightful)
Lame. (Score:5, Insightful)
Talk about poorly labeled.
Oh well. Nothing surprises me anymore. I just hope kids remain indifferent enough that they don't buy into this. What's unfortunate is that I think - if they get to these kids early enough - they'll change their attitudes for life. Kind of like those school programs that convince second graders that their parents are evil if they smoke and that they're alcoholics if they have a glass of wine.
Hoax? (Score:2, Insightful)
Some advice (Score:5, Insightful)
So start earlier. I recommend early childhood, age 4-6. I recommend showing movies to those kids where "thought thieves" are evil, dark figures that, preferably, linger under kids' beds. You'll make very powerful subconscious fears your ally that way.
Alternatively, start later. Most teenagers and students will really like the idea of sharing thoughts, and software, and music, and they will only part with it when they enter business life and get a chance to make money themselves by stopping to share. I recommend offering every potential free software/open source developer a large amount of money if they license their stuff to you, exclusively. If that doesn't work, offer them a job at Microsoft, and pay them well. Very well. You might be able to stem the tide that way.
But seriously, I don't think you will. There have always been developments in history that were so natural and unstoppable that it made those who tried to stop them extremely funny to look at. You're in the process of becoming such a comic figure, Microsoft.
Screw a PDF (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft Thought Thieves? Aren't they the ones usually stealing ideas from other companies? I can't think of one innovative and original piece of software from Microsoft.
--
Fairfax Underground [fairfaxunderground.com]: Fairfax County, VA public message board
Adaptation (Score:2, Insightful)
I certainly wouldn't set up a competition involving the most imaginitive age group of 14-17, get them to give all their ideas to me, and then steal their rights to them.
Re:Some advice (Score:5, Insightful)
I would say the school system has already done half of the job for Microsoft.
Re:Oh get to the youth. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Please kids don't steal (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, now that I've come up with the idea, no one else can do it, lest they defeat the spirit of the Thought Thieves competition.
Newton (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft only have got where they are today by standing on the shoulders of giants - people who were free with their (highly insightful) thoughts. Don't they remember this?
I shudder to think how progress would get held back if each individual jealously guarded their thoughts from each other. This campaign sends entirely the wrong message.
Copyright Infringement Is Not Theft (Score:3, Insightful)
No one can own an idea.
If you want to claim you own data, keep it private. Once you sell it to me, it is mine, to keep or to give away.
Copyright is immoral. If you tell me a story, you do not have the right to tell me that I cannot repeat it. Everyone has the right to say what is on their mind, regardless of who first thought of it. The mere act of creation does not give you any special rights to tell other people what they can do with their property.
This is part of a pattern of major IP holders brainwashing children,
there needs to be an alternative voice in the classroom.
Re:I'm speechless. (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm laughing so hard my stomach hurts. This joke is SO BAD I can't believe someone at Microsoft had the balls to do such a stupid thing. Instead of focusing on writing better software and OS, they waste their time with "education" which has never been their purpose.
I'd like to know why Microsoft is targeting the kids like this instead of speaking directly to the parents. I would be pissed off as a parent if my child was brainwashed by such Nazi propaganda. Yes, I said Nazi and I meant it, it reminds me of the good ol' "Tell us where your Jews are and we'll give you free Microsoft Windows XP copies!"
Anyway, I hope the parents understand what this thing really is...
art (Score:2, Insightful)
Just because that one in-house guy says he knows Photoshop, doesn't mean he knows good taste.
FIRED!
Re:I'm speechless. (Score:2, Insightful)
its really sad, to be frank. it belies a condition in society where extremely degraded values have become 'the norm'.
whatever marketing genius came up with this idea, clearly doesn't read enough literature
That's the scary part (Score:1, Insightful)
The scary thing here is Microsoft thinks they own children's thoughts
Re:Copyright Infringement Is Not Theft (Score:2, Insightful)
Unless it's used to enforce the GPL, of course.
The real thought thieves (Score:3, Insightful)
Budget (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm speechless. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not join them?
(a) Because there are pleasures to be had even in making their lives difficult. You can't always stop people treading on you, but you can hurt their foot.
(b) Sometimes the impossible can happen. Look at the Ghandis of the world. The will to rebel is latent in all the "mind-numbed" consumers - it just needs some ignition. If you wake up one person with your resistance, then there are two people resisting. And between you, you might encourage another two. And so on, and so forth. You don't have to destroy your opponent - you just have to make them give up.
Re:I'm speechless. (Score:5, Insightful)
Copyrights, patents and other non-tangible goods are a complicated topic, but if you can dictate the terms which are used in the discussion, you've almost won, as far as the general public is concerned.
Oh, I hope you got the memo: It's "Thieves" now. "Pirates" have too much of a romantic connotation (thanks MPAA!).
Re:Newton (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft have gotten where they are today by climbing over the dead bodies of giants...
Re:I'm speechless. (Score:3, Insightful)
The technology to tell what someone is thinking may never exist. All the same, the notion could prove useful to MS. Just let a generation grow up that will accept the notion of thoughts as property. You could "own" the ideas that constitute an operating system, say, and licence how people could and could not think them. And since discussion could be argued as proof of thought, they could make it a criminal offence to say unkind things about windows. Hey presto, no more bad reviews. Even private conversations would be actionable. Better yet, this being "theft", it would be a criminal case rather than a legal one.
Of course, we could expect this to require a certain amount of testing the courts, and probably some bespoke legislation. That shouldn't pose an insurmountable problem: imagine if politicians and political parties could licence ideas in their campaigns and dictate how they could be discussed.
All this is impossible at the moment: any such case would be laughed out of court. So the first step to changing that would be to raise a generation of kids that wouldn't laugh their socks off at the idea.
Obviously this is all IMHO. I am not privy to Microsoft long range strategy sessions, and, consistent as it would be with their usual business practices, it's entirely possible that they have never considered any such scenario.
Nevertheless, I'm not laughing.
Re:Screw a PDF (Score:1, Insightful)
Wait, there was this guy and his buddies who used much the same tactics to wreak havoc and reap benefits... what was his name? Shrub? Hedge? Anyhow, many are learning from his lessons it seems.
Re:Copyright Infringement Is Not Theft (Score:3, Insightful)
I grow tired of repeating this to nimrods: GPL would not be needed if copyright didnt exist. It is a purely defensive construct, cleverly using the enemy's own most potent weapon by turning it against him. Abolish copyright and GPL will go away having done its work.
Re:I'm speechless. (Score:5, Insightful)
What can protected is the material product that results from an idea - and that only against 'product cloning'. If you want to be the first in the game you have to be the first and you have to use your lead to remain the best if you want to stay there. So the market should be.
Which makes MS's attitude not only belligerant, but cowardly.
Re:Don't bash them on this one (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm speechless. (Score:2, Insightful)
I dodn't like microsoft but I don't remember them being involved in the holocaust.
This whole thing is rather hilarious... (Score:3, Insightful)
I think Godwin had something to say about this... um, oh nevermind.
Re:Irony (Score:5, Insightful)
Setting: prehistoric man, living in a cave. Gork has the idea of rubbing two sticks together to make a fire. He finds that fire is indeed warm, and it is very comfortable to sit near it. The fire keeps him warm during the cold night.
Grog is very jealous of Gork's fire, and steals one of the burning branches while Gork is not looking, so that he can have his own fire. He carefully takes the branch to his cave, and makes his own fire. Ironically, Gork's fire keeps burning...
Grog enjoys his new fire, and soon realises that it is also very good for preparing food. Grog roasts himself a good meal. Grok is enticed by the new smells, and cones to check it out. He sees Grog also has a fire.
Should he be furious and sue for patent infringement??? It took him a lot of work and time to figure out the proper way to rub two sticks together to make the fire. No, Grok tries the food and likes the roasting idea as well. He stays awhile and learns what Grog has been doing. Pretty soon, Grok is enjoying his own home-cooked meals by his warm fire, having benefited from Grog building on his idea. Both are happier and warmer because of the fire. Both have learned something new from each other, and both are better off for the sharing of ideas.
fastforward a generation, and they are swapping BBQ recipies..
--
Please steal this idea and work with it. And then share it with everyone else.
Who si the thought thief here? (Score:5, Insightful)
Thought Thieves is about people stealing and profiting from your creation or innovation. Think about it: how would you feel if you saw your hard work being passed off as the property of someone else? What would you do?
ALSO from the website:
I will formally licence, on terms acceptable to Microsoft, all intellectual property rights
in my film and agree to waive all moral rights in relation to my film if requested to do
so.
I mean.....WTF!
Re:Some advice (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that it's very likely a large number of those students were simply ignorant. When asked whether they support X or Y and they don't know much about either, then you'll get a lot saying Y just because they want to answer something. It'll be based on snippets of debate picked up from others, vague reactions to current news stories and confusion of issues (e.g. invasion of privacy of public figures, exposure of government agents, etcetera). I'm not saying that the ignorance is not a huge problem, in some ways it is worse, but I don't think many of these students are out there clamouring for government censoship.
I could be wrong, but it's worth thinking what the survey might be telling us.
Re:Newton (Score:5, Insightful)
Dear <appropriate representative>,
Microsoft's "Thought Thieves" campaign has convinced me that Microsoft has officially gone nuts and is a danger to progress and the society as a whole. I implore you to consider proposing governmental action against Microsoft while they still haven't indoctrinated our youth with their twisted opinions. The past has shown what propaganda is capable of and I fear for the future of the United States/the European Union/our country if Microsoft continues to mess with our children's heads.
Sincerely,
<name>
This was the first thing that came to my mind when I read about Microsoft's latest scheme.
Hmm, with a different wording it might be possible to drive German politicians into a frenzy over this. After all, we're still scared of the 1930's repeating; with subtle Nazi comparisons it might be possible to use German politicians to generate some bad publicity for our least favourite 300 pound gorilla.
Any German Slashdotters who want to mess with our beloved "representatives"' heads?
Re:Who is the thought thief here? (Score:2, Insightful)
What can be said in their defense is that at least they had the decency to put the two paragraphs on different documents, even if each document is a maximum 2 pages long. So considering the MS lawyers were performing "constrained writing" (I mean hey, they're trying to bind minors into a legal contract, so they have to keep it simple), they achieved a maximum of educational value in a very small package.
To wit: I predict that the winner and the two runners-up will regret having signed the contract, and will thus learn a valuable lession. The lession is: if you made the movie for money, then you have just been screwed over, because you signed away your money-making rights. If you made your movie for art, then you have just been screwed over, because you signed away your distribution rights. And, especially in the latter case, you would have been leaps better off with an OSS / creative commons sort of thing.
And that, I call a very valuable lession.
/Thank you Microsoft! May I have another one, please?! *tHwAcK*
Bounties Legal Confusion (Score:5, Insightful)
There is another aspect of this particular "bounty hunting" campaigne that is fascinating, disturbing, and possibly original. Namely, it is deliberately rewarding and encouraging people to MISUNDERSTAND the law about copyright, patent, and "ideas."
Would such bounties be acceptable if they encouraged other kinds of legal misunderstandings? For example, many people may erroneously believe "it is legal for me to download anything that appears on the Internet." Imagine if some large company provided similar bounties for films like this:
"Stop Illegal Harassment! Illegal harassment is when some person or company threatens you to stop doing something, even when you are doing nothing wrong. It sounds like science fiction, but it happens all the time. Some people and companies are contacting individuals who download things on the Internet and threatening them. How would you feel if your brother gave you a copy of the book he just finished reading -- and the publisher came and threatened you for 'stealing' the book? What would you do? We want to know."
Yes, the example above glides easily between different issues and concepts. But so does the Microsoft announcement, as it talks about "stealing thoughts" one moment -- and then asks how you would feel if people stole the *results* of thought, work, and effort.
In either case, it is frightening that it is so easy to start the equivalent of a vigilante campaigne that plays on -- and encourages -- people's confusion about the law. Even more frightening is that such campaignes may be perfectly legal.
Re:Irony (Score:5, Insightful)
And so you are doing exactly what they want: spread the fallacy that "ideas" or "thoughts" can be "stolen". Even most IPR law scholars agree that "intellectual property" is something entirely different from physical property and that you can't "steal" it.
The natural rights doctrine (I "made" it so it's all mine and mine alone) does not hold in the world of immaterial creations. It is introduced by creating artificial scarcity using laws, which should only apply in cases where they have overall positive effects.
With their "How would you feel if ..." oneliners, Microsoft reaches out to the inner desire of many people to be able to get rich simply by being the first to think of something. It can however easily be reversed: "How would you feel if you worked 2 years on a computer program completely on your own and when you tried to sell it, all sorts of people would start asking money from you even though all they did was pay a patent lawyer to file some documents describing ideas they once had?"
APRIL FOOLS! (Score:2, Insightful)
MS Rep: Hey kids, what do you need to stop thought theives? Thats right! Thought police!
Kids: Yay!
Re:Lame. (Score:3, Insightful)
Didn't Leibnitz and Newton come up with similar ideas and methods of calculation for Calculus - independently, and at about the same time? And they didn't steal....
Re:In other news.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Video submissions, eh? (Score:3, Insightful)
However, blanking out the first portion of the tape till you get to a juicy bit might be a good idea. So they don't just turn it off when they see the opening title and credits..
Re:Screw a PDF (Score:5, Insightful)
This is how they want to legitimize the whole software and "business method" patents, extending copyrights into eternity and a whole bunch of other gimmicks invented to make benefit from "owning" thoughts.
Re:MOD STORY +5 Iron (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't bash them on this one (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Please kids don't steal (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll start the list.
Stac Electronics [base.com]
Burst.com [windowsitpro.com]
Borland [about.com]
Caldera over Dr. DOS in UK [google.com]
This is almost a job for Michael Moore....
Re:To quote Orwell's 1984: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lame. (Score:3, Insightful)
This really plays to the immature mentality of young children, who tend to be very selfish. Imagine a child finds a marble (or something children like) on the floor, and a friend asks if they can look at it; a young child's response would typically be "No! Mine mine mine!", wouldn't it?
I suppose that's because kids are all born like that, and through education do they become less selfish, and fit into what we call 'sophisticated society'.
By encouraging them to protect to the extremes what they think is theirs, even if it's an idea, they'll just stunt a kid's ability to open up and share.
A great sign of selflessness is being willing to share, and do things for other people if it doesn't necessarily benefit you.
At one end of the spectrum, we have those selfish bastards, who want nothing but personal embellishment (and usually tons of money just for themself). These people, we see as greedy and immature. At the other end, we have those people who are entirely selfless and don't care too much about themselves, and are willing to go out of their way to help other people. We see these people as idealistic, and prone to being walked all over by others.
We should teach kids the balance between these ends of the spectrum, not shifting them towards the selfish bastard end with corporate mentality. Corporate mentality and propaganda SHOULD NOT be used to against children in schools. Absolutely disgusting.
Re:This whole thing is rather hilarious... (Score:2, Insightful)
Who has Microsoft done this to?
What you said is so true... (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyway, I used to be the kind of person who hated SW piracy to death (to name some "evil thievery" thing) - until i met REALLY poor people. And this was in 92, Linux was simply out of the radar. I realized that sometimes the law was evil.
People grow, kids stop being naive. When they mature, they'll realize not everything's black and white.
Enough!! (Score:2, Insightful)
That is absolutely ridiculous, even for slashdot standards.
You are seriously comparing one of the most horrific events of the 20th century, the slaughter and torture of millions of men, women, and children, to the "death" of a god damn office suite?
Don't you think that this trivializes the real holocaust just a bit?
Re:Some advice (Score:3, Insightful)
Basically, I don't think they see the link between the decline of the media and the intermixing of strong corporations and governments. It's certainly a complex thing, and public schools don't teach you to challenge that sort of thing. I know when I was a child, I looked at the President of the United States with a certain adoration, even though I had no knowledge or even interest in any political issues. It's a bitter pill to swallow that even in this country with its fancy constitution and big elections, that we've filled the government with a bunch of selfish and corrupt jackasses.
Re:Microsoft Propaganda Art (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Enough!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't you think that this trivializes the real holocaust just a bit?
The holocaust, was logically made trivial by it's own zealot like insistance in media and social passing as to what evil and horror amounts to when compared to other attrocities at the very same time.
May I be the first to say:
Don't get angry when someone makes trivial remarks about the holocaust if you don't show the same typical ogligatory social comebacks with the following.
1) Stalin (Gulags)
Hitler only dreamed of killing as many people.
2) Churchill (Dresdon Germany)
Hitler could only dream of the cruelity. And, I don't give a damn what the Brits think about Churchill.
3) Vietnam (US killed just as many vietnamese, many of them innocent)
4) Po Pot
5) Ghengis Khan
6) Truman (Hiroshima/Nagasaki)
Hitler wasn't the worst. He wasn't even the worst in his time. Stalin was, by far. So, why don't you get all upset if someone jokes about the Russian Gulags? At least Hitler had a target and had enough sense to pick on someone else. And, stop acting as if there is some measure to define the barbarism and cruelity of any man, becuase frankly there isn't a group of people on this planet that isn't shamed by some part of their own history. Ask the Palestinians how they feel today!
Re:Screw a PDF (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm speechless. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Screw a PDF (Score:3, Insightful)
Just to clarify, I think what you meant to say was:
Yes and no. Yes - they thrive by implementing ideas from other companies, sometimes illegally. No - because it's not stealing.
I think it's worth pointing out that the other poster was right in that MS has been guilty of violating the same sorts of laws they're trying to convince kids to obey. And you're right in that they're further mischaracterizing that form of lawbreaking as something different, and worse. Dishonesty layered on hypocrisy.
Re:In other news.. (Score:3, Insightful)
That is so... (Score:3, Insightful)
Kjella
"Thought Thieves" (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Newton (Score:1, Insightful)
Newton was an asshole; Edison was a bullyboy, thief, and a backstabbing slave-labourer and bastard; Einstein was an adulterer; Mother Theresa knowingly met with, and accepted dirty money from mobsters just to fund her little plans (even knowing the money came from murders, drug running etc.)...
The list goes on. No person is worth worshipping. In the end, most famous people are famous because they have managed to use and abuse someone else to get ahead.
(Of course, I'm currently unaware of Gandhi having done anything untoward - so he might be our safest bet at respecting someone
Obligatory, but.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What you said is so true... (Score:4, Insightful)
Haven't you noticed that slapping somebody will get you prosecuted, while starting a war on false pretenses and killing tens of thousands of people gets you re-elected?
Haven't you noticed that international corporations have no patriotism, but expect us to send our poor to fight and die protecting their resources and markets?
Haven't you noticed that rich industries write their own laws and buy Congressmen to rubber-stamp them?
Haven't you noticed how Microsoft openly flaunts the law by outspending and outwaiting the government prosecution until political conditions are more favorable? How they build a vast empire on the ideas of others and then pretend that re-using ideas is stealing?