Dvorak on the LinuxWorld Fracas 677
An anonymous reader writes "John C. Dvorak has entered the fray, offering his opinion on the O'Gara LinuxWorld flap. From the article: '...the Linux community is slowly evolving into a state of mob rule, with the cheerleaders being paranoid crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga.' "
Cheap shot (Score:4, Insightful)
What the Linux community needs right now is a good leader. Someone to make everyone realize that the community is the one that is in charge of the direction of things and help them to focus their efforts.
Brought to you by the letters A, B, C and D(vorak) (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, yeah, I think I see your point here, John:
We should be more understanding towards useless "journalism" and media flamebaiting, because without those practices you might actually have to come up with something insightful or worthwhile every week to fill out your column and earn page hits. Hey, I can see where you're coming from -- that'd take legwork, insight and generally staying on top of the industry. I imagine that's hard work, and trust me: I'm right there with you on the "I don't like hard work" page.
BTW, congrats on getting your flamebait article on the front page of Slashdot. It's good to know that *some* "journalists" are still able to use (a) and (b) successfully to drum up (c). It's gotta be a good feeling to walk into your boss's office at review time and wave around yet another spike in ad impressions courtesy of the Slashdot crowd -- I hope you're appreciative enough to include Zonk on your Christmas card list!
Anyhow, hope preparing your standard self-righteous indignation column for when (d) inevitably rolls around is going well. Aw, who am I kidding, I know you're an old pro -- I'm sure you were already writing that one when you handed in this last article to your editor.
A little trolling, and two columns done and in the bank. Must be a nice life.
Rather be considered a crackpot... (Score:5, Insightful)
DaGoodBoy
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh god not dvorak (Score:5, Insightful)
So Dvorak has seen another chance to jump in the lime light and play the under-dog
and stir up some controversy by calling all of us who called for O'gara to be fired "lunatics" (not just those who issued death threats , who are quite likely a bit mad)
Don't buy into this , he is just trying to kick up his readership .
Oh wow! Just what we need (Score:5, Insightful)
Dvorak is on crack if he thinks that there are any businesses that are going to give a shit about the MoG/PJ flap. Businesses adopting Linux and other FOSS products are looking to reduce TCO and also trying to make sure that they don't end up being 0wnz0r3d by Microsoft into perpetuity by having their corporate data locked into proprietary file formats that change from release to release and by being locked into licensing schemes that become ever more onerous and increasingly expensive as time goes on. The antics of the various players in the MoG/PJ flap are going to have about as much impact on the adoption of Linux and FOSS as Steve Ballmer's video, the one where he jumped up and down like a chimp, had on the adoption of Windows XP.
Re:Brought to you by the letters A, B, C and D(vor (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that the Slashdot editors also seem to love the controversy a Dvorak article is sure to bring in, having someone to bash is just good for business I guess.
I find it rather contradicting (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cheap shot (Score:3, Insightful)
When it comes to the "trash heap of history" Dvorak can claim more than his fair share of expertise. He's "seen worse on TV" and that's supposed to represent the affairs of the "sane"? No community deserves to be tarred with a single brush. That would pretty much mandate astroturfing by hostile parties.
Re:Against my better judgement (Score:5, Insightful)
Publishing someones phone number and address, and even their mother's address, goes way beyond being controversial. It's a privacy violation.
Re:Cheap shot (Score:3, Insightful)
A:
There's too much infighting in the Linux community for it to have a leader at all. Everyone I've ever met who was absolutely incredible with computers was also quite the control freak. The reason a leader has not emerged is because the Linux community is defined by its individuals' refusal to either follow or be given a direction.
B:
Dvorak is not really a crackpot leftover. He's apparently become an authoritarian, which is quite a bad thing. Originally he came up with an efficient solution to a problem created in an arbitrary manner, and he saw it fade into obscurity. The funny thing is that now you have to question whether or not he is disappointed he did not become the leader you say Linux so desperately needs. Amusingly enough, there are plenty of strong personalities in the Linux universe, it's just that there aren't any that are good at the kind of leadership required, because it's a very new kind of leadership.
C:
Blaming this on 'the media' is not exactly useful. The media is a nice thing to blame everything on, but really in this case it's more the Linux community's fault for their older public relations blunders. Laughing at the hordes of newbies, not building easy to use software at the beginning, etc. These shortcomings are all slowly being righted. The funny thing is, they're all being righted in a very communal manner, with leaders emerging, but most of these leaders falling back into the background and not trying to hog the spotlight.
You mention a 'good leader' and then move to requirements for a 'strong leader.' Linux's communities will reject a strong leader. Instinctively. But a good leader will not need to do the pushing that a strong one does.
I'M AN OPEN PROXY, BAN ME! (Score:1, Insightful)
Tue May 17 18:46:19 CEST 2005 [3167]
I'M AN OPEN PROXY, BAN ME! (Score:1, Insightful)
Tue May 17 18:46:48 CEST 2005 [998]
Ethical Issues (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that that point was lost on Dvorak. Whether or not O'Gara is a paid shill or not is beside the point- what she did was not, and should not be considered by Sys-Con, to be appropriate.
Dvorak's article betrays him (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, brother. In the olden days, O'Gara would have been given a medal for generating readership. But in today's world of the so easily offended, she's apparently let go instead, and things calm down as the hissy fit subsides.
This is the key, right here. It's actually slightly shocking that he let himself shine through so clearly in this paragraph. Dvorak is actually just upset because, y'know, that's his schtick. Generating readership by making inflammatory and offensive articles? That's pure Dvorak. It strikes fear into his black little heart to see someone get fired for doing exactly what he does, so he lashes out at it.
Who needs to be right when you can be controversial?
Dvorak's Logic Bypass (Score:5, Insightful)
And there's only one thing wrong with that logic.
It's complete bollocks.
Exactly... Very cheap. (Score:3, Insightful)
What has crazed fanatic lunatics done to set back religious groups?
Absolutely nothing.
There's still plenty of Christians, Jews and Muslims running around, even though each of those major world religions has more then a few criminally insane followers counted amongst their faithful.
Now, I am not saying that Operating Systems are like religions. They aren't. What I am saying is that people will go with what works for them, regardless of how many kooks are associated with it.
Dvorak is just pissed because he's going extinct (Score:2, Insightful)
Funny thing, I've been using linux since SLS, I use it every day, I stay in tune with what's going on within the Linux world (or at least I like to think so) and I had no idea what Linuxworld was or who maureen o'gara is until this thing blew up. From what I gather, she's just a tool like Dvorak who still doesn't "Get" the 21st century and the changes in media. There is a huge difference between the readers of some little linux web magazine and the community at large. It sounds and looks to me like they can't distinguish the difference because they are so clearly not part of the greater community; they get flamed by some vocal folks and think that reflects the way things are.
I'll also throw this salvo out there. I like groklaw, I like what it's doing and trying to do. I also think PJ needs to reveal some things about herself, if you want to be a cultural and media figure you have to deal with it. If you want to be an anonymous person, then I'd suggest not running a big popular web site and trying to get in the middle of it all. I don't think what happened is right but PJ needs to build her credibility, I can't consider it news or bias free if I don't know who the messenger is. The whole thing sucks but I've been toning down my reading of groklaw simply because I don't know who is behind it. She should consider this an important lesson, release the information the way you want it released and maintain and control your privacy or have someone dig it up and lose control of it. There are plenty of "celebrities" that can manage that and keep their privacy.
Good editors always fire the incompitent (Score:3, Insightful)
There is such a thing as journalistic integrity. Apparently Dvorak doesn't believe in it, but most people do. When a reporter doesn't stand up for doing the right thing people get mad. Then heads have to roll. You can ask a number of people who used to work for CBS news until they faked a report on Bush's service just before the last election.
Come to think of it, yesterday NewsWeek was forced to retract a story, because they didn't check the facts sufficiently. I wouldn't be surprised if someone resigns at NewsWeek of the issue.
The Linux community did nothing unexpected when you consider the facts. Some reporter did something unethical, and the community forced his/her bosses to fire him/her. It has happened before, it will happen again. The only thing that has really changed is that today someone who discovers media abuse has an easier time letting people know.
Re:Oh god not dvorak (Score:3, Insightful)
The artical is pure flamebait , its written to intice an argument.
MoG's motive (Score:3, Insightful)
MoG has had a hate-on for IBM since the days of the antitrust trial. If she has a chance to slam IBM, she takes it.
She sees PJ defending IBM, and so she goes after PJ. I think Darl & Co. played on her hatred of IBM, but she allowed them to, and she got what she deserved.
It was more than just being "controversial" - MoG wanted to hurt IBM by hurting PJ.
Re:Brought to you by the letters A, B, C and D(vor (Score:4, Insightful)
what is this guy smoking? (Score:5, Insightful)
First let's get a few things straight. All of O'Gara's assertions are nutty.
Some of them go way beyond nutty. Dvorak acknowledges that O'Gara tracked down and photographed PJ's home and PJ's mother's home and posted pics in her column
But rather than point out the problem with this type of "journalism", he praises it.
Oh, brother. In the olden days, O'Gara would have been given a medal for generating readership. But in today's world of the so easily offended, she's apparently let go instead, and things calm down as the hissy fit subsides.
Right, thank god we have PC Magazine to sustain the flame of responsible journalism. What an asshole.
Re:Cheap shot (Score:5, Insightful)
WTF are you talking about?
He's just a journalist. He's been writing basically the same column since at least the 80s.
You aren't confusing him with August Dvorak [wikipedia.org] of the eponymous keyboard are you?
That would be pretty damn funny.
Re:Dvorak's article betrays him (Score:3, Insightful)
If the average
People like Dvorak are reviled by the
I don't think
Do Not Feed the Troll (Score:5, Insightful)
In recent years, he has become a professional internet Troll. He knows that he can get a lot of page views by saying things to inflame passionate groups (Mac users, OpenSource advocated, etc.) and he does so at every opportunity.
My advice for you is the same as with any other Troll: Do Not Feed.
Re:Brought to you by the letters A, B, C and D(vor (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows over Linux == trolling.
Linux over Windows == advocacy.
Right?
Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
We need a leader to tell everyone we don't need a leader?
No, we don't. Why bother putting the weight of a world-wide movement onto one individual, when the thing is doing fine on its own?
I'm reminded of a story from the Book of Judges (in the Bible). Israel had been more-or-less confined to the hill country by the Philistines because they kept failing to listen to their judges, who were sort of like Linus, ESR, RMS, et al. It was a meritocracy of sorts. Israel clamored for a king, though, so they could be like the other nations. Through Samuel, they were told the king would take away their freedoms and tax them for his own purposes, but they insisted. They ended up with King Saul, a megalomaniac of, er, biblical proportions.
Re:Cheap shot (Score:3, Insightful)
Being the leader of the local LUG, I can see that there are lots of people who are looking for leadership. There are many new Linux users (from the past couple years) that want to do something, but don't know how to get started or that they can get started. As a whole, the Linux community needs that same guidance.
Also, blaming it on the media is not meant to be useful, it was just an explaination of what happens. A community can be 90% sane and 10% insane and the media will make it look 90% insane.
John Dvorak, Apologist of poor journalism (Score:3, Insightful)
First of all, PJ's articles have been very accurate.
MOG took a role in media sensationalism, inaccuracy, and FUD. When her articles descended into ad hominem attacks, people reacted.
People emailed SYS-CON advertisers.
Fuat Kircaali called up individuals emailing advertisers, and threatened to sue them.
Instead, the OSS community threatened a boycott of SYS-CON. We made our positions on anti-OSS publications well known.
I guess because I received an unfriendly phonecall from Fuat Kircaali threatening to sue me over my emails, that I am somehow one of these crackpots?
Instead, I will rebut with this:
John Dvorak is not fully acquainted with the overall tone of the MOG articles, and the SYS-CON support for her anti-OSS sensationalist agenda.
If threatening a boycott, is somehow construed as a death threat, John Dvorak should stop pointing fingers and instead enroll in english 101.
We still haven't seen any evidence of a DDOS. No logs, no IP addresses, no documentation.
We still have an unapologetic publisher (Fuat Kircaali)
We do have "media analysts" pontificating on subjects they appear to be thoroughly ignorant in.
I guess John Dvorak is following in the MOG tradition. Will he be syndicated by SYS-CON next?
Been saying this for a while now. (Score:3, Insightful)
With all of that said, I cannot survive in the industry, if I am viewed as belonging to a group of fanatical left wing blow hards who absolutely refuse to look at the pros of anything that competes with their prize product. It would shut the door for me as professional. I have also long stated that the fanatical representations of Linux and the over-bashing of MS shed a poor light on the community and cause outsiders to shy away. Very few people wish to be associated with a group that refuses to acknowledge that any choice but theirs is a ticket to damnation (accept maybe in the case of the factional Christian faith denominations). If Dvorak is stating this, should it not be clear to everyone that there are a fair number of ot Iher important people who also have this perception? I am not saying it is right, but we HAVE TO do something to correct it, or we all are going to painted in the same light. That is not what Linux is and it is not what it's future could be. If the perception rules over the facts, as Dvorak said, the trash heap of history is where this (linux) is - headed.
Just another Dvorak Troll (Score:4, Insightful)
A) Dvorak thinks this is within the bounds of ethical journalism, or
B) His articles weren't getting much attention lately, and he knew which buttons to push.
I vote for (B).
Re:Brought to you by the letters A, B, C and D(vor (Score:4, Insightful)
In today's world of the so easily offended you sure look like one too, John. Otherwise I fail to see what this troll is all about. Are you protecting bad journalism here?
You should remember who your clients are before talking that much. Do you really fail to see why the kind of visibility that O'Gara received and that you seem to admire so much is actually bad?
First of all I would like to know what kind of proof you have that any of this is real. You wrote that Groklaw's claim about O'Gara working for Sco are just words, yet you publish an article saying that the death threats existed, and that they come from this community.
Get your facts straight. The whole effort that you descrive as an act of violence from this community was just a ton of complaints to Sys-Con regarding O'Gara.
Reporters have the freedom to speak up their minds just as much as we do. You should never forget that it works both ways.
Re:Oh god not dvorak (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Cheap shot (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cheap shot (Score:5, Insightful)
Why can't a group of people ever do something right without resorting to being led around by some charismatic figurehead?
Christ, people, work together and do things right - without all the arguing and petty bullshit - and you will soon find out that most "leaders" (can also be read as "managers") are simply not needed.
Dvorak S/N ratio is a negative number.... (Score:2, Insightful)
We don't need no stinkin' leaders (Score:4, Insightful)
IMHO, the worst think that happened in the personal computer world was the appearance of a strong leader in the form of Bill Gates and Microsoft. MS corralled the PC industry and dominated it.
In the build up to the MS dominance was a great deal of talk about the need for a leviathan that would dominate and curtail the computer industry. We got what the pundits wished for.
What the computer industry needs is a framework that allows development on multiple fronts.
That people develop rivalries or have egoes is really not a problem. The communitarian belief is that we will have paradise when everyone has denied their ego. If no-one had egoes, then we would all be zombies. The existance of feud between two linux pundits really is not a problem. Nor is the fact that different businesses want to define their place in the market.
The fact that there's too many ideologues like me who want to bubble on about our ideologies is annoying, but not quite a category killer. Although it is a sign of problems in the linux community. Personally, I had a ton of ideas I wanted to develop. I've looked at open source as a way to bring some small new businesses into fruition, but really only see pitfalls and dead ends in linux development. Not being able to see a way to participate in open source software development that does not leave me destitute is a big problem.
It seems to me that the way for a business community to thrive there needs to be a way for the members of the community to invest their time and resources into the community, and receive returns for that investment. Historically, the best way to do that has been with the establishment of property rights.
The last thing open source needs is another leader. It needs a stronger business framework where people are making money and thriving.
Re:Dvorak's Logic Bypass (Score:2, Insightful)
And that's really fucking stupid.
Re:Dvorak's Logic Bypass (Score:2, Insightful)
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
W B Yeats, The Second Coming [thebeckoning.com]
Re:Oh wow! Just what we need (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Dvorak's article betrays him (Score:4, Insightful)
That isn't missing. He doesn't think she did. (Score:3, Insightful)
What MOG did wasn't so bad. He's seen worse.She didn't violate any ethics. People are just too easily offended today.
There is such a thing as "moral outrage" and that is what is being expressed by people objecting to MOG's article.
But John doesn't understand that. John only sees page hits. And page hits are good.
Re:Substantiate your claim. (Score:3, Insightful)
You can't excuse e.g. the lying of a politician by pointing to the fact that some random person on some random website did it too
You didn't get dirty enough. (Score:5, Insightful)
That is the way these "journalists" handle it.
Since we cannot see the actual email, he is free to describe it in any way he desires.
Given that he has already characterized the Linux community as "criminally insane" and "lunatics", you can be sure that he will be portraying the emails as from such individuals.
BUT you will also NOT see a SINGLE case of any email being forwarded to the cops/FBI for legal action regarding communicating a threat.
Not
a
single
one
.
Meanwhile, if it were you or I who received an emailed death threat, we would have the appropriate message and headers carried to the local authorities for investigation and possible arrest.
No arrests will be made.
No criminal cases will be opened.
No email will be sent to the authorities.
But much will be said in his articles about the tone of the threats he received for his unbiased and fact-filled article about Linux extremists.
Today is the 16th of May, 2005 and it is 11:25am Pacific time.
That is my prediction.
I've done this. Professionally. I'm not proud. (Score:5, Insightful)
My employer asked me to do this. We are involved with a particular industry that is rampant with Old Fogeyism. As I tend to rant anyhow, I posted a rant on a highly visible mailing list. My boss came to me and, to my horror, prodded me to keep flaming away. Flaming customers, mind you. Not usually a good business strategy...
I had my reservations, as an old-time Troll. I couldn't see the benefit. But my boss has an understanding of business that I lack, and I've learned to trust him. So I did it. I was my usual asshole self. I put fifteen years' experience in net.flaming into a post that was factually sound and very logical, but with my inner asshole coming out like Fran Drescher's voice in a granite cathedral. (Not that you have to dig deep to find the inner asshole where I'm concerned, mind you). It was so offensive, that only the people who already agreed with me already could agree with what I said, no matter how sound my logic was.
The next day, the boss told me: Now apologize to everyone.
Since then, I can actually see the repercussions. Many of them are just ripples from other things happening off in the distance, but the effect is clear: It was a kick in the ass to an industry that needed it, and suddenly people are wondering why that asshole on the mailing list was so damned mad. They're digging deeper.
You see this with SCO. Whenever SCO says something stupid and outlandish, the Free Software community will retaliate with venom, but others will also dig deeper to see: Do they have a point, and if so, how can we prevent this? Groklaw has become useful for this very reason -- for this purpose of getting the facts straight. Linus changed how he maintained the kernel. A lot of due diligence is being done on GNU/Linux that might never have been done anyway.
The whole O'Gara situation is causing people to look and think critically about the relationship between publishers, editors and content who haven't looked at such things before.
I was surprised to see the results of my little public flamewar. I wasn't surprised that people were pissed off; I was surprised that there was a genuine positive and creative response to it. My boss was fucking brilliant.
It shows that provocative writing does have a point from time to time. It is the little ego of the industry, goading people out of their complacency. Thank God this shit is not the only motivation we have, but it does have that use.
I thought the quote in the leader to this article was offensive, but it got me RTFA, and when I RTFA, I have to admit I laughed. I am laughing at myself, a true blue anti-MS zealot, when he says about the Linux community "Too nutty even for the Mac community? We welcome you!" It hits close to home, but he's right. I -am- too nutty for the Mac community.
So I think it's a bit more useful than just a scam to draw enough eyes that advertisers are happy; columnist journalism can occasionally benefit the industry.
Although most of the time, we're just trolling assholes.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You dare defile Amiga!? (Score:2, Insightful)
The Linux community IS populated by lunatics. Microsoft don't even need to fight Linux. They can just sit back and watch the community built around it fall apart. Torn apart by the childish zealots who created the situation.
Dvorak is merely commenting on it. Those who think he's blowing smoke are the exact problem the community has.
Re:Cheap shot? No, criminal offence... (Score:4, Insightful)
Take a look at Newsweek. They got one tip and checked not facts then publish a story the looks like it got people killed! When the Challenger blew up the camera crew kept shooting the faces of the crews families while the watched there loved ones die. Now O'Gara chases down some on and invades there privacy for no real reason. And the Linux community is upset? Dvorak feels this makes them the crack pots? My goodness for all the stupid things I have seen on Slashdot this has got to be one of few examples of justified moral outrage and human compassion. The fact that Linux community said in one voice "We do not care what religion she is. We do not care that she takes care of her elderly mother, we do not care what PJ looks like. We only care about facts."
Maybe Mr. Dvorak should take a lesson from this. You maybe free to write what you want but we also have the right to hold you responsible for the quality of what you write.
Re:Against my better judgement (Score:3, Insightful)
Is that a mere coincidence? Are we paranoid to think there is any linkage between SCO and Ms. O'Gara? Or could it be that she took his statement as the lead for a story? Who knows?
However, it is incorrect to paint the FOSS movement as a bunch of criminals. On the contrary, that community has seen how monies from the convicted monopoly Microsoft, have gotten into the SCO treasury via the Canopy Group - to fight free and open source software. We have also seen people involved with the case meet untimely death under strange circumstances.
You are not paranoid if they really are out to get you. Then again, it could all just be coincidental. I'll leave determination of that as an exersize for the reader...
Dvorak's 1996 impression of his Amiga (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's Dvorak's own words about his Amiga:
http://www.cucug.org/amiga/aminews/1996/961003-pc
And only a few months ago, he was insulting the Mac community by comparing them to the Amiga:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1745930,00.a
So why bring up the Amiga? Seems like Dvorak likes to drag a stick across the cages of owners of computers whose market share never exceeds five percent, then uses it as evidence that they're rabid. Puhlease! It's not as if the Linux market is a unified entity.
Can't we PLEASE ban Dvorak from /. (Score:3, Insightful)
His argument is:
(1) Sure O'Gara tried to instigate stalkers to commit violence against PJ and/or her family.
(2) Sure O'Gara violated privacy rights and trespassed.
(3) Those hysterical "Linux fanatics" get worked up over the silliest things.
This matter is *not* about merely bad journalism, which O'Gara (and Dvorak) have been doing for a long time. OK, fine, publish another "study" that proves Linux will irradiate your brain, and Windows will bring you inner peace. Whatever. It's propoganda and fluff, but ultimately within free speech rights.
What O'Gara did is criminal incitement of violence, and probable RICO violations.
Re:Time to call out the old folks (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't say much about Slashdot. However, newsgroups have been around much longer; and this same disease of bitching about how the newbies are clueless goes back to the very beginnings of the Internet.
The use of moderation only works when the moderators themselves are actually knowlegable and civil enough to understand who is ranting, who is BSing, and what the relevant issues really are.
That's why I still feel that only you can really moderate the stuff you read. Slashdot's moderation scheme is a nice try. But ultimately, it only works after the fact --if it works at all. Participation in a discussion is the only way to smoke out who is full of themselves, and who knows his/her stuff.
Why, back in MY day... (Score:3, Insightful)