IBM and Red Hat Offer College Prep 136
Califa writes "IBM announced Tuesday it will work with Red Hat to bring universities up to speed in teaching college students open source skills." From the article: "The company said its research of technology training at universities around the world have shown a need for more open-standards offerings. About 75 percent of a group of CEOs interviewed by IBM's Business Consulting Services said education and a lack of qualified candidates are the two issues with the greatest impact on their business."
Which skills? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Which skills? (Score:1)
Re:Which skills? (Score:2)
Re:Which skills? (Score:2)
Now here's a bullshit story if I ever heard one...
Take it down the road, Microsoft troll (and, no, I don't for an instant believe you know shit about either Solaris or Linux.)
Re:Which skills? (Score:2)
Re:Which skills? (Score:1)
Re:Which skills? (Score:2)
Re:Which skills? (Score:2)
That scares me, especially in light of the fact that you described your courses as "C++", "Java", etc. As a Georgia Tech student, I describe my classes as "Intro to CS (algorithms and functional programming)", "Object-oriented programming", "Languages and translation", "Design of operating syst
Re:Which skills? (Score:2)
If I had it to do again, I might go to a proper school and get a proper CS degree, but I admit to being bamboozled by the recruiters. Of course, as I do not have any plans to work in academia, I will probably in the end be well served by the fact that DeVry has a (perhaps undeserved) very good reputation in the business world (or at lea
bad news (Score:1)
I have worked for several large firms (all > 20,000 employees) and have been involved in hiring software developers at all of them. Without exception all considered real CS degrees vastly superior to schools like DeVry.
:(
Sorry
Re:bad news (Score:2)
Re:bad news (Score:1)
Just make sure you spend as much time as you can gaining theoretical knowledge (the WHY, rather than the HOW) on your own, since those schools tend to concentrate on the applications themselves, (i.e. "using java vs C++" instead of "designing data structures" or "designing efficient compilers etc.")
Once you are in the real world, your detailed knowledge of java swing APIs will give you a quick head
Re:Which skills? (Score:2)
I teach at a community college that is heavily MS-oriented. The MS bias really shows up the most in the low-level courses, the ones that teach you how to use Word and Excel, etc. Those are 100% MS. But if you're learning C++, who cares whether you're learning it on one OS or the other? And ditto for all the theory CS majors learn -- a bubble sort is the wrong algorithm for a
Re:Which skills? (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Which skills? (Score:2)
Re:Which skills? (Score:2)
City College of San Francisco has a fairly well-rounded program (not that brilliant, it is only a community college, not a university) covering both Microsoft products and UNIX/Linux.
They have the usual business department courses in using Microsoft Office products.
The CS (Computer Science) department teaches C, C++, Java, Visual Basic.NET, C#, and in the fall, Python and PHP, and has taught Perl in the past, as well as UNIX/Linux systems administration, UNIX/Linux system programming, database courses on
Interesting.. (Score:1)
Re:Interesting.. (Score:1)
Re:Interesting.. (Score:1)
NCSU is listed by kiplinger as the 11th best value for all universities in the country.
http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/colleges/ [kiplinger.com]
They may not be MIT but they are pretty darn good for engineering.
For example, their engeneering department has the 11th highest research budget of any school in the US.
The NCSU Centennial Campus is an enormous research center (a second campus) where over 100 companies and government agencies work hand i
About time... (Score:4, Insightful)
Making inroads into higher-ed (and I'm not just talking in the server room, but the class room) is critical to Linux's wider adoption.
Re:About time... (Score:1)
Re:About time... (Score:2)
Please?
Re:About time... (Score:2)
As always, RTFM (Score:1)
And they don't really have much of an excuse anymore: it's getting to the stage where Linux is becoming pretty intuitive. I just installed the Hoary Hedghog release of Ubuntu last night-- and I must say that I'm really pleased. I was able to do everything I needed to do for today(compile C, Java an
My Opinion (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:My Opinion (Score:2)
Hmm... (Score:2)
You do realize that eclipse is one of the great OSS things that IBM gave to the world, right?
Paul B.
Re:Hmm... (Score:2)
You don't need a class on licensing and ethics (Score:1)
Re:You don't need a class on licensing and ethics (Score:1)
That's the point, Urusai: to round education. Incorporate a little law (i.e. The background on copyrights, and licenses. Knowing how to read legalese is important) and a little philosophy (i.e. ethics)
I mean to say, these resources exist (Score:1)
Spot the difference? (Score:2, Insightful)
Isnt this just the same issue stated twice?
Re:Spot the difference? (Score:1)
Isnt this just the same issue stated twice?
See? They're right.
Re:Spot the difference? (Score:2)
In a few more months, the neurons that contain these concepts in the heads of most CEOs will find each other, and the issues will become one. But, until then, we'll still see Billy G. begging for more H1-B visas instead of helping colleges to create those workers with "security" experience that he's interested in hiring all-of-a-sudden.
Re:Spot the difference? (Score:1)
A question of goals (Score:5, Insightful)
I got passed over for a job or two because I didn't know application 'X'. Sure, I know the theory - I've written a TCP stack from scratch, I understand the core components of operating systems, and I've acted as a sysadmin on 6 UNIX variants for over 10 years, but I didn't know some specific keyword used in a Postgres config, so apparently I'm "not qualified"
Everytime I see something like this - the same type of programs where Microsoft sends out techs to teach people how to pass an MCSE so they can be 'network specialists' without ever explaining what a SYN packet is - I wonder what the goal of the program is. Are they trying to teach people a specific platform, or are they trying to teach people concepts and theory.
From experience, I'm afraid that they're going to train people to be the ReHhat equivalents of an MCSE - and we all know how respected they are in the 'real world.'
Re:A question of goals (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:A question of goals (Score:3, Insightful)
They are trying to flood the candidate pool with paper techies to help drive down the salaries so managers will see IBM's and Red Hat's products as lower cost than the others. You might not get some job because of not knowing all the magic keywords or menu layout for application X, but when you do get a job, you can be sure your new boss will tell you, when you try to negotiate the lowball pay up a bit, that he has 50 other fully qualified candidates and that you should consider yourself lucky to be gettin
Re:A question of goals (Score:1, Insightful)
Often, in my experience, the applicant fails to make her/his case. If you fail in respect to a requirement speak up, note the deficiency then put forward your case as to why, in spite of the lacuna, you have shown superior abilities and the quickness to acquire new paradigms. There is a loss of face syndrome that causes people to withdraw into themselves when ever they come up
Re:A question of goals (Score:2, Insightful)
If your job is to hire the best people than you need to draw out the intraverts instead of advising them to change their personality.
Re:A question of goals (Score:3, Interesting)
They are trying to teach people to work for peanuts and be locked in (MCSE example above).
Unix admins make more than windows admins because "managers" understand pointyclicky pretty pictures.
They "think" that unix is harder (muuuhahahahahh, we'll just keep the secret) and therefore when forced to impliment it, are willing to pay for admins (or perish the thought, training for Windows admins)
Now the truth. Windows is infinitly harder to admin than unix. (think about it carefully for a sec
Re:A question of goals (Score:4, Interesting)
That used to happen to me all the time. I blew one job interview by knowing how to configure something in BIND that worked a little differently in whatever they were using, and another by not doing a BASH loop the way one of the interviewers liked to write his, and there were several other cases like it. The problem is that most IT managers are techies who get promoted to management instead of good managers who got into tech, so they don't have the management skills and knowledge to realize that giving someone to a week to figure out the ins-and-outs of your particular software choice and it's config files is a lot easier then spending weeks or months looking for that "perfect" candidate.
Every time I look back on stupid shit like that I remember why I got out of IT and went to art school.
Re:A question of goals (Score:3, Insightful)
Are you kidding? You really believe that PHB's are more likely to understand how techies work than techies are? Bulls
Re:A question of goals (Score:2)
Bah, compared to running multiple Solaris/NT/AD/Linux environments single-handedly on tiny budgets, getting good grades is a cinch.
Re:A question of goals (Score:1)
When they ask me about such and such function, I tell them: there's a million different ways to approach a particular problem.
When they ask me about a particular acronym: I reply: Google.
When they stare at me blankly, I tell them: You've yet to tell me what you are trying to achieve in your goal to give better value to your customers and shareholders.
This is when the manager laughs and tells his goons that the interview is over, and then he takes me to lunch to discuss
Re:A question of goals (Score:5, Insightful)
They are training NOC monkeys. People who are trained not to think,to perform a specified business task, mechanically and interchangably. Parts is parts.
The above is expressed somewhat cynically, but it is not a troll. It really is what they are up to, and they not only know it, it is a codified business practice. Never stake your business on that which cannot be replaced, since the business fails with the failure of the irreplacable. People are guarunteed to fail. Mediocrity, by definition, can be easily replaced.
Of course this is why a small outfit comprised of a few exceptional people can come out of nowhere and eat the lunch of some big establishment, but in doing to they become a big establishment. .
Rinse and repeat.
Besides, we both know this is more marketing than anything else, to make sure the future NOC monkeys jabber for IBM and Red Hat kit. Gentoo on a beowulf cluster of old PIIIs need not apply.
KFG
Re:A question of goals (Score:2)
What's the difference between a Windows Administrator and a Windows Administrator with an MCSE? The Admin with the MCSE took a test that proves a certain amount of competency with MS technologies. It's absurd to believe that the average admin without the certification is superior to the average admin with it.
It's the same with a RedHat certif
Re:A question of goals (Score:3, Insightful)
We also know how employable an MCSE can be in the 'real world.'
Re:A question of goals (Score:2)
However, many of those companies who are "major local employers" who do a special deal with their local university, so that the Computer Science courses are custom designed for their needs.As a result, the unique combination of skills taught by these courses, means that they only look to those universities for software engineers, and it helps to "lock in" the graduates to those compani
Re:A question of goals (Score:2)
Teaching is not there priority. Making more money is their priority.
1. Create a false mystique around having an MCSE.
2. Charge for certifcations
3. Laugh all the way to the bank.
I also ask which skills (Score:1)
The majority of kids coming out of schools these days no zip about *nix. / is says "web site" to them and they only tend to think of \ and "dos" and "ick".
Despite their intentions in this, they should have an entire chapter of the course dedicated as "Google: How to Find People Who Know More Than You". No matter what else they teach in the course, they need to teach the most basic skill needed in *nix an
Re:Open source...eh? (Score:2)
I have mod points and this deserves one.
Yeah, but can they donate as expensive software? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yeah, but can they donate as expensive software (Score:2)
For IBM and Red Hat to donate their support services at a level that would effectively impact Microsoft's market share would cost them
'Donation' - IBM speak for 'Pwn3d' (Score:4, Informative)
As much as your post was probably intended to be a "donate something free" joke, there's an element of truth in what you say.
I work for one of the big four Universities in Sydney, Australia and well, we got (and continue to be) royally screwed by these IBM 'donations'.
Let me put it clearly: There is NO donation, the equipment that IBM claim to donate is not free. The way IBM work on these deals is that they ponce about making announcements and press releases and say look look, we gave all these free computers to this University, aren't we good corporate citizens and on the other side, they're shoving exclusive access deals under the noses of the IT purchasing folks in the individual faculties that 'benefit' from the 'donations'.
Basically, what IBM really say is "agree to buy all of your IT infrastructure from us for the next n years, or the donation is off".
Since the big announcements have often already been made, you're trapped between a rock and a hard place.
From a technical administration and IT purchasing point of view in these instritutions, 'donation' is just IBM-speak for 'Pwn3d'.
Once IBM have pwn3d you, you're screwed. On simple factors: It takes me 10 working days to get a written quote out of IBM for a thinkpad. I can generate the same written quote for a Dell Lattitude online in minutes - Dell give me direct access to the corporate ordering system. It taks IBM six weeks to deliver a Thinkpad once I've ordered it, an equivalent Dell takes a maximum of ten days. If I call IBM for support, I get patched through to darkest India (this is large corporate support remember - I get better IBM support from google). Dell give me no-extra-charge Gold Client support, speaking to actual English speakers who are actually in the same city as me.
But no, IBM made a 'donation', so I've got to be the good corporate citizen and buy from IBM.
So don't for a minute be suckered by this good citizen stuff IBM would have you believe. IBM don't even piss about with that long term strategy of building product knowledge into kids who will buy out of familiarity when they reach positions where they make reccomending and buying decisions, no. IBM set out to pwn their victims short term, first generation, right now. The load schools with tech equipment and reap the benefits 10 years later is a relatively honourable approach that Apple pioneered in the early eighties, but IBM are way too impatient for that.
Fuckers.
Re:Yeah, but can they donate as expensive software (Score:2)
There isn't a school system, college or university, within ninety miles that hasn't found a ready market for day and evening courses in Microsoft software. This is something employers want.
Microsoft has strength at ground level.
SuSE (Score:2)
None the less, Novell has taken some "right" steps by for example releasing YaST and other software as GPL and supporting Mono.
I suggest Novell provides hobbyist SuSE ISOs and probably starts shipping them like Ubuntu is doing. I also think adopting autopackage http://auto [autopackage.org]
Re:SuSE (Score:2)
Re:SuSE (Score:2, Insightful)
1) Red Hat and Fedora together have over 2 million active servers according to Netcraft [netcraft.com], whereas Suse has under half a million.
2)Red Hat does a ton for the community, are experienced, and make a very easy to use distro while retaining the full power of linux.
3) Red Hat's core and only business is Linux. Novell just jumped on the Linux ship because it was failing in other areas, and if Novell sees another oppurtunity to make more money with something e
Re:SuSE (Score:2, Informative)
Right here:
Novell Drives Linux into Academia with Training and Technology [novell.com]
Here is the first paragraph:
WALTHAM, Mass.--19 May 2005--Novell today launched a new introductory Linux training course designed for academic environments, giving educational institutions a powerful new tool to promote open source training and students a new option for learning Linux. Unique among Linux vendor offerings, Novell's new course maps directly to one of the most widely recognized vendo
Re:SuSE (Score:1)
Re:SuSE (Score:2)
I searched monster.com for "RedHat". 336 entries.
Re:SuSE (Score:1)
Re:SuSE (Score:2)
Re:SuSE/ Novell for students (Score:1)
Open Source Irony (Score:2, Interesting)
Will the curriculum be "open source" as well?
Re:Open Source Irony (Score:4, Informative)
disconnect (Score:2)
Then they should talk to the people screening candidates. They usually just scan for irrelevant buzzwords and listed experience that parrots the job listing.
Doubt It (Score:2, Insightful)
This is more posturing for the sake of the politicians. If the industry complains enough, then the newspapers will pick up that complaining, and give the politicians an easy excuse to increase H1-B's in the future.
If there really were a shortage of IT workers, companies would not be downsizing, but rather hiring. They'd be going after ev
Re:Doubt It (Score:3, Informative)
Considering the majority of these 13,000 people are in Europe, I'm assuming IBM is getting rid of them because of their expense. The Euro has gone through the roof compared to the dollar, so even hiring Americans have become cheap in comparison. But, they'll probably replace these people by hiring in India.
Re:Doubt It (Score:1)
The less qualified get the axe.
The middle qualified are left to do the work of the most qualified (which they can't do) and the less-qualified (which they don't want to do) and they leave too, so the company rehires the less qualifed ones, because somebody has to be there to run the backup jobs.
Trust me. When you let go people en-massse, you keep onl
The order of Layoffs (Score:3, Insightful)
2. Layoff people who are expensive
3. Layoff people who are working on poorly performing projects.
4. Layoff people who are weak performers
5. Layoff people who are good performers but not "buddies" of the founders.
6. Layoff the buddies
7. Close the doors.
Re:Doubt It (Score:2)
College (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:College (Score:2)
Re:College (Score:2)
Stick with CS. Remember that there is always a certain amount of work that will never be outsourced. There is always a need for developers, systems analysts, and program managers who know the local market.
Companies are learning the hard way that outsourcing is not all its cracked up to be. Once that idea gets drilled in their heads,
All I'm Saying is.. (Score:1)
University != Vocational Training (Score:1, Insightful)
I know this may sound rather arrogant and that most employers would probably prefer that you have "UNIX", "Advanced Java Programming", and "Software Engineering and Collaboration" on your transcript than "Automata", "Algorithims and Data Structures", and "Discrete Mathematics", but if you seriously are looking for real world experience, places like ITT Tech [itt-tech.edu] are designed to give it to you. There is no shame
Re:University != Vocational Training (Score:2)
Having the theory that you mentioned is so much more important than actual API/Language/system knowledge because all these systems are built from it.
"A real computer scientist tinkers around with technology at home during his (or her)'s free time"
Exactly. Colleges are not there to give someone the right job skills for today. They teach you how to think, learn and provide the tools needed to master any related technology. I spent more time messing around with various technologies from Windows
Super villians use it (Score:1, Insightful)
RHCE (Score:2, Interesting)
Please please, just because YOU cant pay for it it doesnt mean its bad.
I just wanted to say this because its tipical in
RHCE is the best certification track for linux available. Period.
Yes, im RHCE and i dont know more now than before i took the exam (which is a REALLY good, no nonesense, hands on test of skills -simple too, if you know wtf youre doing-).
But i think most knowledg
Re:RHCE (Score:2)
Did they teach you that in RHCE class?
Skills (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Skills (Score:2)
Where will this be taught? (Score:1, Insightful)
Is it just me... (Score:2, Insightful)
Colleges (Score:2, Insightful)
By the time I graduated they were just talking about adding a Linux+ course (still cert-driven of course).
There was no mention of Macintosh anywhere. In one of my final courses, Network Integration, I did a presentation on emulation and virtualization, including Mac stuff.
Does anyone think that networking with Mac OS X should be taught in college networking prog
Re:Colleges (Score:1, Insightful)
once you get the basic theory (the basic stuff covered in any networking topology class), you can just buy a damned book to learn how to get a machine on the network
Re:Colleges (Score:1)
Re:Colleges (Score:1)
It is unrealistic to think that a large governmental organization such as a university is going to be able to diversify and teach all the different flavors of Nix to it's students. H
Open Source Skills? How about just Skills... (Score:2)
So, they are going to teach open source skills? What is that? And whom in the business world regards open source skills as highly regarded?
Don't businesses just hire the best person with the skills they want? Is there such a thing as an open source skill? I have heard of open source [opensource.org], but never of open source skills (except for this self promotion by Sun [networktimes.co.za].
Now, being someone who deals in Linux, Unix and "gasp" Windows, I can tell you that knowled
Big suprise!!!! (Score:2)
In related news MS said its research of technology traning at universities around the world have shown the need for more MS offerings, and Apple said the same thing about Apple offerings, and Sun said the same thing about Sun offerings, and Novell said the same thing about Novell offerings............
Unwilling to invest in training (Score:4, Insightful)
Turning towards universities so that they can provide IT level classes to their graduates is nice for product placement and breeding familiarity. It is however totally useless if you want to teach them the specific skills that are so in demand.
Most companies work under operational constraints that limit the amount of time and money they can invest in training people so they are looking for the dark horse out there that has all the skills and is willing to work for a lower salary. Unfortunately, most all those companies are finding it extremely tough to (a) find the people and (b) keep them.
Once a company has found a person that can do trick A, they will make him do trick A all the time. Whenhe discusses his career development he will be limited to performing trick A over and over again. Not many people I know will stick around.
Having worked with the folks of IBM services, I have seen a large spectrum of people, some very good, some abysmal. Yet, in those projects no college graduate would have been any use with skills advertised in the article.. Why, because real IT problems are caused by real IT needs and are usually the result of decisions made a few years back, therefore an understanding of that type of environment is a requirement to being effective.
If universities really want to train their graduates on IT skills, then they should take all the money RH and IBM are willing to spend but also open a consultancy service for small and medium companies. That will expose students to the realities of IT, not some class. As we say in the group I work for, 'we are looking for the people with the scar tissue in the right places'.
And yes, we do hire out of university, but mostly PhDs
Good News (Score:1)
"education and a lack of qualified candidates (Score:1, Interesting)
Then they should get themselves some schooling and learn that the sort of work they expect for the money thay want to exchange is not competitive with other ways to spend ones time.
Yes, I know they are talking about the "issue" (when did problems become issues, sounds so feminine and touchy feely) of candidate education. Well perhaps the good old apprentice program might do them some good. Used ot be an employer looked at what someone was capab
Yeah. Lack of qualified candidates at $0.32/Hr. (Score:2)