Viewing Files on the Web Considered Possession? 719
Packet Pusher writes "A Georgia lawyer is taking a case to appeals court to prove that the mere act of viewing a website does not constitute possession of the materials that were automatically cached on your hard drive." While the case in question involves pornographic photos, the implications of such a declaration could reach far further.
20 years over 4 hours? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's absurd that someone could face 20 hours in prison for viewing illegal pictures for 4 hours. But that's just me.
Re:20 years over 4 hours? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Holely Cheese (Score:5, Insightful)
This technical know-how shouldn't be required to stay clear of law enforcement.
A good example (Score:5, Insightful)
Spyware? (Score:2, Insightful)
Accedents (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with the lawyer in so far as the cache should not be considered property.
Re:Same old story (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway, that's a bad analogy.
The key question here is- does the fact that someone has browser caching on instead of off make something drastically more illegal.
How to go to jail (Score:5, Insightful)
Step two, go to Google and search on something
Step three, Mozilla will immediately start fetching the pages in the background and storing them on your machine.
Step four, get arrested for having every link on the results page cached on your machine. Even the crazy pornographic (and illegal) pages that you didn't click.
Re:Sophistry at its finest... (Score:5, Insightful)
People click links (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a link in my sig. If there are illegal images there, should the people who follow the link be subject to prosecution?
Re:Holely Cheese (Score:2, Insightful)
Luckily it isn't. Not breaking the law is required to stay clear of it (NOTE: parent was talking about people KNOWINGLY looking at illegal images. I see knowing how to clear the cache akin to knowing how to clean blood from the floor so it leaves no marks).
Victimless Crimes, in General (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, if someone creates porn from actual people, unwilling to or unable to consent, that's something the creator has done. And maybe if someone has paid to fund that, there's an issue. If this guy has paid, they should go on the money. If he's not, I don't see how they have any good cause even though they may have a case.
When you start to admit victimless crimes, the whole algebra of causality is turned on its head and lots of strange things result, not the least of which is this case.
Consider newsbots also. (Score:2, Insightful)
And, I haven't read the case the case, but what is the user supposed to do about cache/swap/temporary folder?
Mens Rea -- criminal intent (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case, if possession of kiddie pr0n requires mens rea, then the lawyer has a good argument. Most lusers do not know that the browser has caches and so did not know they possessed the offending material. The /. '1337 couldn't get off that easily :)
The prosecution can easily prove they viewed pr0n, but that may not be illegal. To posess something requires an act of knowingly taking possession. IANAL.
This is serious. (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether what this guy did is morally or ethically wrong is a different issue than whether what he did is illegal. If you have kiddie porn in your browser cache, do you possess it? What if someone mails you some raunchy spam and your mail client caches a copy on your disk -- do you possess it? In either case, planting evidence that could get someone serious jail time suddenly becomes trivial! I could put a link to an obscene photo on my home page and with a small amount of effort make it invisible to you but trick your browser into downloading (and possibly caching) it. Or I could wait until the Google crawler comes by, and then extort a little cash out of Google because now I can show that they possess this photo, etc. (The links don't point to my site; there's no evidence that I've ever possessed the photo.)
This is far from simple.
Re:20 years over 4 hours? (Score:4, Insightful)
1. By viewing the images of exploited children you are creating a demand. Higher demand means more kids life's are ruined to create more pictures.
2. Punishments generally reflect how hard it is to catch a crime, not how much damage it causes. This is why you can go to prison for 209320938 years just for copying a movie for your friend.
A flurry of frame-ups? (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't possession something you take? (Score:3, Insightful)
If it's something you take, then accidentally seeing something on the web doesn't imply possession.
On the other hand, deliberately seeing something means that you are clearly taking it to your computer.
It's a subtle difference, but it seems to me important here.
Here, particularly, it seems to me that he took possession of many files, he was clearly deliberately possessing them.
Re:Holely Cheese (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore, there's hell raised on Slashdot about how "people should have a license to use their computer" when threads about Microsoft insecurity causing worms to run rampant and cause networking problems...people often rally a call to hold anyone who cannot maintain/patch/protect their machine accountable. Then we come to a thread like this, and you see a number of posts suggesting that it's not their fault if they don't know how to do something on their computer.
Please! At least the precedence of the law is on our side for holding people accountable for their possessions.
View rate? (Score:3, Insightful)
Either way this is interesting (Score:2, Insightful)
If he loses, one can argue that a number of industries already allow the (temporary) copying of copyrighted material because they show it on the web.
This case may turn out to be not be about porn.
Re:How to go to jail (Score:2, Insightful)
Why should surfing any kind of porn be illegal?
Not trolling -- but seriously, just LOOKING at certain PICTURES is now widely considered to be a crime?
Yeah, keep chanting that "land of the free" bullshit till the lynch mob comes for you. Mob rule isn't freedom.
Click here and go to prison (Score:4, Insightful)
Doesn't seem fair, does it? You were just curious where the link went.
Re:A good example (Score:3, Insightful)
Google Images (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Victimless Crimes, in General (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Same old story (Score:5, Insightful)
That is what I think these people are trying to defend against. Just because a software program on your computer loaded material on to your computer, does not mean that YOU intentionally did it. Sure you run into the "my friend did it" situation, but this is an actual legitimate defense since you can control your friend easier than you can control a malicious piece of software or website.
Re:A good example (Score:2, Insightful)
I think you misunderstand. Possesion of child pornography isn't illegal because the law assumes that this person would the next day be going out to commit child abuse. It is illegal because it creates demand for the pictures which then encourages the original creator or others to abuse children to create the photos.
Re:Holely Cheese (Score:5, Insightful)
this is important, because you dont' always know wtf a link points to before you click on it. And if you computer chaches a copy of something you where mislead to into viewing, should you be at fault? no.
and then theres that multiple people use any given computer. and that theres no way to prove who looked at or saved what.
There are many reasons why computer should be diffrent. existing laws do not take into account computers at all and many need to be changed.
it is not the end users fault for haveing spyware, i think most people blame MS, and the spyware companies (another palce where new laws need to be taken written)
So PLEASE, take note that computers DO require diffrent laws bceause they are TOTALY diffrent from anything else.
Re:20 years over 4 hours? (Score:3, Insightful)
I just flipped through a Crutchfield catalog. Did that do anything for the demand for car radios?
Seems like terrorism and child pornography are hot button issues that require logic be checked at the door at all times.
Re:Accedents (Score:5, Insightful)
It depends. If they violated another person, they need both prison and counseling. Looking at a web page is another matter though.
Re:Holely Cheese (Score:2, Insightful)
Something along the lines of
Or, I bet "fun" things could be done with a java applet, make all kinds of files get downloaded.
Re:Sophistry at its finest... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:20 years over 4 hours? (Score:4, Insightful)
But is this justice?
Re:This is serious. (Score:4, Insightful)
Imagine that someone has a pile of kiddie porn in their house. There's no way to prove that they have ever looked at it. The thing that's provable is whether it's physically in their house.
Look at the laws: people are charged with possession of kiddie porn, not looking at it; possession of controlled substances, not getting high, etc. That's why the definitions are so important here: if someone can effectively place illegal images or documents in your "possession" without any cooperation from you, then these laws are meaningless.
Re:Holely Cheese (Score:5, Insightful)
At first glance, this looks like a Heck ya. However, it brings up an interesting point - were the people watching the superbowl's "wardrobe malfunction" in possession of a nipple picture?
I think the issue is that you can end up places you don't expect to be on the net. Especially if using IE. Now, 400+ pics in temp internet files... that's a lot IMHO. It's suspicious.
I can't see a non techie claiming I'm currently "in possession" of this slashdot page in any meaningful way. I'm viewing it, but there's no exposed way for me to go back to it unless I actively save the content.
Also, if I'm in possession of everything I see on the internet, isn't that a big copyright violation?
I don't think you could reasonably claim files that your browser caches, without your input, as files you have possession of. They are like claiming a TV broadcast is in your possession. Now, I can see using them, in a case like this, to prove/prosecute for *viewing child porn*, but not being in possession of it.
Who's victimized when CP is viewed? I'll tell you. (Score:2, Insightful)
20 years, not hours (Score:5, Insightful)
This is very, very dangerous. With typosquatting domains that make money of of pr0n pop ups and use endless "on exit" java script loops, anybody could wind up with illegal pr0n on their computer--and Walker County could prosecute you for each and every image as a separate count, regardless of whether you meant to download it.
This case is much, much bigger than the one person charge here. Charging people with possession for the mere act of seeing something is positively Orwellian.
Newsgroups (Score:5, Insightful)
He has a fetish for small breasts and after searching for breasts in the newsgroup names find a category that suits him.
He then decidees to download all the jpg's from the above newsgroup along with 22 other newsgroups that sound like they might interest him.
He does this before he goes to bed and lets them download while he sleeps. He gets up in the morning and turns off this computer. Why not. He works all day. He forgets about downloading the pictures and doesn't look at them.
If some of those 10's of thousands of pictures is (even though the categories do not include young or pedophile or even teen) is he a convictable pedophile?
I would guess that if he is then EVERY user who downloads any pictures from Kazaa or any file from any newsgroup is at risk for downloading ANY supposed legal porn as the fact is that you DO NOT KNOW what is on the file you are about to open. Virus scanning doesn't help here.
Re:A good example (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps. But certainly not by following the 1.040.000 links that Google finds in 0.21 seconds for "lolitas young pre-teen nude sex".
The fact is that true child pornography is *extremely* rare anywhere, both in the internet and the physical world. Children just aren't sexy. They don't have the bodies for being sexy. People who find children sexy are less common than people who get sexually excited by pieces of furniture. Child abuse is about power, not sex. People who spank children must be about a million times more common than people who have sex with children. The police should go after the spankers, not the wankers.
If it weren't for so many people who keep hammering this "child pr0n" meme, the whole idea of child pornography would disappear entirely from the world outside some very few specialized psychiatric clinics.
Re:Newsgroups (Score:3, Insightful)
Say goodbye to p2p if that were to be the case. And say good bye to downloads from newsgroups. The WWW is done too. How can I know what picture is to be shown to me on a page that I've not yet loaded?
Goatse is a pleasant example of people viewing unexpected pictures.
Whether or not a person is guilty is to be determined.....it is the assumption of guilt based upon the pictures being there that is bothersome.
Re:20 years over 4 hours? (Score:5, Insightful)
You have a finite amount of content on a site, and a finite number of visitors. Even if the content isn't "used up" for real, the consumption of the same content by a visitor has a diminishing return, and the visitor demands new content or they leave. You can run a site without adding content as long as you have a steady flow of new users, but it's not sustainable. If you want people to come back, you add new content.
Either the perv is paying for the site, and if there's no new content he stops paying, or if it's a free site, the advertizer stops paying. Either way, the site owner needs to find some way for people to keep paying, and that way is by adding new content, which in this case is pictures of children being molested.
Re:Who's victimized when CP is viewed? I'll tell y (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Holely Cheese (Score:4, Insightful)
You're talking rubbish. If the car brakes go out after 2 years of not servicing the car, yes you're likely to wind up being found negligent. But if you were doing everything right and had it serviced days or weeks beforehand and the mechanic made a mistake the mechanic would be charged, not you.
Furthermore, there's hell raised on Slashdot about how "people should have a license to use their computer"
A few loud zealots do not "hell raised" make.
Then we come to a thread like this, and you see a number of posts suggesting that it's not their fault if they don't know how to do something on their computer.
I hate child exploitation. I have no problems with putting people who make the rubbish in jail. But viewing a web site - any web site - should not result in jail time. Not if you value your freedom!
Re:20 years, not hours (Score:5, Insightful)
It is exactly Orwellian, "thought crime" specifically. He didn't do anything in the real world, just looked at some images. (If he paid for them, that's another thing, but since it wasn't mentioned in TFA, which would have made a stronger case, then I assume he didn't.)
One can sit on the subway and read American Psycho, one of the most revolting stories I've attempted to read without being arrested for thinking about extreme torture, murder and sexual abuse. One can look at books, movies or comics about "True Crime", complete with photos of dead bodies without harassment. As a society we can certainly disapprove of some or all of these actions, but to make it a serious crime worthy of decades of jail time boggles the mind.
Virtual Crimes.... (Score:4, Insightful)
For all the people, before there is a holy war, let me set some things straight. If a person arranges to meet someone underage, send them to jail. If a person chats with someone underage and tries to solicit sex, send them to jail. I am all for sending people to jail who harm others.
But when it comes to looking at something, should this be a crime?
I am afraid the direction we are going in. Are we protecting children, or are we making ourselves feel like we are protecting children because we locked up people who looked at the wrong websites?
This is an issue that is only going to get worse. What about websites with instructions on how to make bombs? What about websites that don't explicitly tell you how to make a bomb, but give you all the information in a way that anyone could figure out?
Okay, so you want to talk about intent. What is the intent of the person looking at a website? What is the intent of a person looking at a website with a naked girl? Are we going to start measuring the sexual excitement a person has?
If the real goal is to protect children, how about going after the website owners? Why not spend the money which would lock up joe sixpack for his browser cache violation, and use that money to find and hunt down the people who abuse the children? It seems to me that hunting down the website owners, and those who commited the violent act is much more effective than spending money on joe blow because one morning at 2am after drinking all night he went on the web and found the wrong website.
I feel like it is so difficult a position to defend, yet if we want free speech, free expression of ideas, then we have to draw a line when it comes to throwing people in jail, to those crimes that harm someone or something.
I would hate to see what society would do to Newton if he was alive today. There is a guy who 100% would look at anything and everything, and probably not be able to tell the difference of right and wrong. How he figured out calculus between the fits of emotional turmoil and pychological collapse is beyond me. Maybe we can have a wing of the prision for thinkers, people with an IQ over 140. Wait... that might be a bad idea.
Re:Newsgroups (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Holely Cheese (Score:1, Insightful)
We ran the undelete software picked and it picked up his temp internet files too. In our contract of employeemen, we made provisions so that we could search an employees computer for porn in we wanted to.
When I looked in there, there was some seriously underage stuff. After a day of deliberation, we phoned the police and he was arrested. His trial is in September. So yes, it really does happen this way.
A.C.
Re:Newsgroups (Score:3, Insightful)
You can make reasonable efforts to keep your bag in sight at all times so someone doesn't get the opportunity. The same cannot be said about stuff you are downloading - you could download a Torrent that claims to be the latest copy of Fedora, only to find it's hard core kiddie porn - how were you to prevent this from happening?
and so it begins...the end (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, what, you're not soft on childporn, are you? You don't want terrorist roaming around and using the internet without punity, do you?
If it's emotional and self-righteous enough, they know few will dare to oppose. Think of the children! think of 9/11! Ok, and now agree to our huge privacy invasion, because, you want to stop those people doing it again, don't you? Or are you pro CP and terrorism?
With such demagogic tricks they can fool the public almost every time.
Is retaining the best way to go? Does it actually help at all? Is the very unlikely possibility of stopping a relatively few worth the privacy invasion and the further degradation of civic rights of millions? Nowhere is that question ever raised by those that propose these laws. Instead, they continue to use platitudes: "We need the way to stop terrorists!" But as I said before:
Ah, yes, but who are the 'terror suspects'? Everyone reading books the state deems dangerous? Everyone using the internet? No? Then why should their privacy be invaded? Why not adher to decades of legal provisions, where it used to be that you could only be 'tapped' when you were considered a suspect, and AFTER a court agreed to it. Nowadays , everyone is a suspect, and the courts don't come into play anymore when your communications are being tapped.
Eroding ones' privacy and other rights because one is merely 'suspected' is the right way to go, if you want to end up in a policestate.
But, we ALL know the state will ONLY use its powers for the purposes it is meant, without ever abusing it. History has shown this already numerous times in the past, no?
Besides, 'if you have nothing to hide, why care that your private life is being invaded', right?
Re:A good example (Score:3, Insightful)
Next you'll equate saying 'no' to a childs demands with emotional cruelty and sending them to thier room with locking them in a 1m x 1m tin shed in some tropical third world prison camp.
Mycroft
Re:20 years over 4 hours? (Score:2, Insightful)
By viewing the images of exploited children you are creating a demand.
So when I watch the 6 O'Clock news I'm creating a demand for war, arson, murder, and genocide?
No, you're only creating a demand if you're paying for the item.
Re:20 years, not hours (Score:3, Insightful)