Microsoft, Intel back HD DVD over Blu-ray

raitchison writes "Reuters is reporting that after months of sitting on the fence in the battle over what will replace the venerable DVD that Microsoft and Intel have thrown their weight behind Toshiba's HD DVD over the Sony's Blu-ray. Better compatibility with existing DVD technology as well as lower cost were cited as reasons to back HD DVD. While this is undoubtedly a significant blow for Sony in their efforts to establish Blu-ray as the next standard it's not likely to be the end of Blu-ray."

Blue-ray taking hits

[op12]

It may not be down for the count, but Blue-Ray seems to be taking a lot of hits (From TFA and this Yahoo article [yahoo.com]:

• Cost: They [Intel and Microsoft] also said that HD DVDs would be cheaper to produce, resulting in lower prices for consumers.
• Manufacturing: Westlake also said the HD DVD camp has made inroads with manufacturers in China, where most of the world's DVD players are currently built. Without that support, it would be difficult to quickly deploy the technology at a low price. "(Blu-ray) does not have that relationship and we're concerned about whether that offering of Chinese players will be there. We know HD DVD will be," Westlake said.
• Speed to market: "Blu-ray is very robust, but it's also not here," said Richard Doherty, research director for the Envisioneering Group. "The PC industry has clearly backed the system that is weeks away from commercialization."

That's just my impression from these two articles...feel free to add a counterpoint. The article did mention Blue-Ray disputes the cost and time-to-production arguments, and some major Hollywood studios back it.

Re:Betamax v. VHS

[stupidfoo]

Why wait? Why do we even discuss this? Dual format players are already announced by major players like Samsung [theinquirer.net].

This format war was over before it even began. Isn't this the exact same discussion we were having about the DVD+-RW format issues? And now everyone has drives that support everything and it's a moot point.

Re:Who Cares?

[FerretFrottage]

XBOX 360 doesn't include a HD-DVD....maybe a future version will (XBOX 720?), but no HD-DVD on the model they are selling this season.

Look over here

[Anonymous Coward]

This [arstechnica.com] article over at Ars Technica, while somewhat one sided has some more information.

Re:Blue-ray taking hits

[Ngwenya]

Speed to market: "Blu-ray is very robust, but it's also not here," said Richard Doherty, research director for the Envisioneering Group. "The PC industry has clearly backed the system that is weeks away from commercialization."

Hmm. I know that HP has most definitely backed Blu-Ray. http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2004/04111 5c.html [hp.com]. So have Dell (http://news.com.com/HP%2C+Dell+back+Blu-ray+techn ology/2100-1041_3-5139694.html [com.com]) I guess that they aren't part of the PC industry any more - just the two largest manufacturers of err... PCs.

And "Envisioneering?". Dear God...

--Ng

Re:Who Cares?

[Jabroni_5000_Deluxe]

Since the Xbox360 ships with a 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm [xbox.com]) I'm not quite sure where the idea came from that HD-DVD is the Xbox360 format of choice. Could it be, just maybe, that MS (and Intel) actually believe that HD-DVD is the better format? Why is it always a battle of game systems? It's not like anyone needs new game systems, I mean, World of Warcraft is already out.

Re:Yes of course...

[scharkalvin]

"DVD-RAM died a painful death, probably in some part thanks to DVD burners getting out quickly there after. "

Actually the stories about the death of dvd-ram are not really true.
While not a mainstay, dvd-ram has enjoyed a comeback in home dvd recorders, especially
those made by Toshiba and Panasonic. DVD-ram allows you to watch a program while it is
being recorded, and you can rewind, pause, or fast-forward (not all the way!) while
still recording. DVD-RAM disks no longer require the cartdrige, though they are a good
idea for the double sided disks. They also have a MUCH longer lifespan, dvd-rw's last about
1000 rw cycles, the dvd-ram disks go for at least 10,000 (or was that 100,000?).

You can find dvd-ram drives for your computer. Most of these will also READ cd's (r and rw)
as well as dvd-rom and dvd+/- r/rw's. Someone even makes a combo drive that handles
WRITING dvd-ram AND dvd+/- r/rw disks! That drive isn't as fast as the dvd-ram-less
units though.

You can buy blank dvd-ram media at Wal*Mart, Ratshack, Target, and many other stores
(anybody that sells Panasonic dvd recorders). Media price varies, but I've seen them for
less than $3 each (sometimes MUCH less in 3 or 5 packs).

Re:Is that really the reason?

[Brahmastra]

It's not like sony isn't going to have some form of DRM...

To protect high definition contents from unauthorised duplication, HD-DVD chose the successor of CSS called AACS (Advanced Access Control System), while Blu-ray invented a proprietary algorithm called BD-CPS (although Blu-ray might decide in the end to use AACS too). Quite interestingly, both technologies are very similar, proprietary ciphers and algorithms from CSS have been abandoned for state-of-the-art key exchange, symmetric/asymmetric encryption and hashing algorithms (AES, T-DES, ...).

The full article is here:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186/3 [cdfreaks.com]

Re:Yes of course...

[voorko02]

Both formats support backward compatibility:

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#2.4 [blu-ray.com]

Anything else would be commerical suicide. I don't put it past Sony, but in this case they aren't that stupid.

Blu-ray is way more expensive to Build

[jayslambast]

Check out this opinion piece about the manufacturing costs of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD. It definitely makes more sense to create HD-DVDs than Blu-ray discs. http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/ne xt-gen-dvd.ars [arstechnica.com]

Wrong, not insightful

[Wesley Felter]

Neither format uses catridges! How many times does this need to be said?

Re:Deja Moo

[Anonymous Coward]

Before digital, TV studios used beta--never vhs. It thrived in that industry and never completely died.

On thier own?

[SuperKendall]

Take a look lower at the list of companies in the Blu-Ray consoritum. It is substantial and really a more impressive overall list than the HD-DVD camp.

Blu-Ray is hardly a Sony solo effort, and is technically superior to boot. If one had been more open with less DRM I would say a choice could be made based on that but from the DRM standpoint both suck equally; for data backup from a computer Blu-Ray holds more and is a clear winner.

Here is why HD-DVD is better...

[burnsy]

Here is why HD-DVD is better according to MS and Intel...

----------------

Microsoft and Intel cited the following consumer and industry requirements of any successful next-generation optical format for high definition, which is reflected by what HD DVD delivers today:

- Managed Copy: A first for DVDs. Managed Copy is a guaranteed feature within HD DVD that gives consumers the freedom to make copies of their discs to a hard drive or home server, including Media Center PCs using Intel Viiv technology, and enjoy them in every room of the house over their home networks. HD DVD discs also will allow copies of the movie to be played on portable devices.

- "Future-proof" compatibility. Using proven HD DVD "hybrid disc" technology, a single disc can store both high-definition and standard-definition versions of a film, allowing consumers to immediately enjoy the standard-definition movies stored on these discs on today's DVD players, while HD movies can be replayed later on the HD DVD platform. This is an opportunity for consumers to buy discs at launch that future proof their collections -- in other words, helping assure customers that the discs they buy will remain viewable in the future.

- Proven low-cost, high-volume manufacturing. HD DVD discs use essentially the same manufacturing equipment as existing DVDs, meaning that production of HD DVD can ramp up easily and with lower costs.

- Superior capacity. HD DVD-ROM discs will offer dual-layer 30GB discs at launch, compared with BD-ROM discs, which will be limited to 25GB.

- Superior interactivity. HD DVD discs will offer greater interactivity using iHD technology, allowing for enhanced content, navigation and value-added functionality for high-definition films. For example, HD DVDs can offer advanced picture-in-picture capability so that other video, such as a director's commentary, could play on top of the movie.

- Superior format for notebook PCs. The compatibility of HD DVD with standard DVD facilitates and simplifies development of slim disc drives for integration in notebook PCs, one of the fastest-growing segments of the PC market.

Re:Only the market will decide the winner

[molnarcs]

H.264 was NOT developed by Apple - it is a new standard that will probably become THE standard for DVD streams in the (near) future. H.264 is an ISO standard - the precise name is mpeg-4 part 10, but you will find many people referring to it as avc or mpeg-5/avc. There are various implementations of this standard. One implementation is done by apple in Quicktime - and I have to add that it is not the best one - it supports only 1 (consecutive) bframes, no CABAC, no Loop and no Weighted Prediction). To put it bluntly: apple's implementation sucks. A better implementation is x264, which is open source (gpl I think), supports almost all the features, and it is in heavy development. Another very good h.264 codec is Nero Digital AVC, which is considered the best (alongside x264).

Re:Only the market will decide the winner

[Ondo]

Sony has to learn that single party closed standards won't exist for long. We won't see an open standard, but at least a consortium of different markets offers multiple profit-oriented groups some debate.

They did that. From the FAQ at Blu-ray.com the board of directors of the Blu-Ray Disc Association is:

Apple Computer, Inc.
Dell Inc.
Hewlett Packard Company
Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
TDK Corporation
Thomson Multimedia
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures

Re:XBox vs the PS3?

[Babbster]

What wait? Samsung has already announced that they plan to produce combo HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players [engadget.com]. And, knowing Samsung's record of being very competitive in terms of pricing (most evident in their HDTV selection), I wouldn't be surprised if their combo players launched at around the same price as single-format devices.

I think that combo players are going to end up being the standard and that the only "wars" are going to be fought a) trying to get content producers on board with a particular format (for the licensing fees) and b) in the recordable market (both PC and standalone).