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Editorial Science

Share Your Most Dangerous Idea 1060

GabrielF writes "Every year The Edge asks over 100 top scientists and thinkers a question, and the responses are fascinating and widely quoted. This year, psychologist Steven Pinker suggested they ask "What is your most dangerous idea?" The 117 respondents include Richard Dawkins, Freeman Dyson, Daniel Dennett, Jared Diamond -- and that's just the D's! As you might expect, the submissions are brilliant and very controversial."
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Share Your Most Dangerous Idea

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  • by tcd004 ( 134130 ) * on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @12:32AM (#14389785) Homepage
    This is very simliar to this piece from Foreign Policy Magazine in September of 2004 "The World's Most Dangerous Ideas" [foreignpolicy.com] tcd004
  • evolution of evil (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ee_moss ( 635165 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @12:36AM (#14389799)
    I found David Buss's [edge.org] article interesting. He sums up with the following, "On reflection, the dangerous idea may not be that murder historically has been advantageous to the reproductive success of killers; nor that we all house homicidal circuits within our brains; nor even that all of us are lineal descendants of ancestors who murdered. The danger comes from people who refuse to recognize that there are dark sides of human nature that cannot be wished away by attributing them to the modern ills of culture, poverty, pathology, or exposure to media violence. The danger comes from failing to gaze into the mirror and come to grips the capacity for evil in all of us."
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @12:39AM (#14389812)
    How about this one: a majority of people will become bisexual as social controls are removed, say over the next 50 years.
  • by davidwr ( 791652 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @12:39AM (#14389813) Homepage Journal
    Let's make our own list.

    My most dangerous idea: Asking /. posters what their most dangerous idea is. :)

    Humor aside, I am serious, let's make a list.
  • by NoData ( 9132 ) <_NoData_@yahoo. c o m> on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @12:48AM (#14389846)
    Dan Gilbert is a bit of a hero of mine. His research basically is about happiness--it's all any of us really, universally, want, so why, after millions of years of evolution, are we so bad at finding it? We should be experts! His stuff on affective forecasting and rationalization is amazing. I highly recommend his papers--and hearing him talk, if you ever have the opportunity, even more so! Anyway, he's a REAL character, and his response betrays that:


    DANIEL GILBERT
    Psychologist, Harvard University

    The idea that ideas can be dangerous

    Dangerous does not mean exciting or bold. It means likely to cause great harm. The most dangerous idea is the only dangerous idea: The idea that ideas can be dangerous.

    We live in a world in which people are beheaded, imprisoned, demoted, and censured simply because they have opened their mouths, flapped their lips, and vibrated some air. Yes, those vibrations can make us feel sad or stupid or alienated. Tough shit. That's the price of admission to the marketplace of ideas. Hateful, blasphemous, prejudiced, vulgar, rude, or ignorant remarks are the music of a free society, and the relentless patter of idiots is how we know we're in one. When all the words in our public conversation are fair, good, and true, it's time to make a run for the fence.



    Well, Dan, have you read Slashdot lately? I think we're still all right. For now.
  • by MustardMan ( 52102 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @12:55AM (#14389873)
    This thing seems like a few gems from genuinely insightful people, and a whole lot of buzzword babble junk. My personal favorite so far is the "headaches are like a spoon" drivel that says we should abandon the idea of physical objects and that everything we think we know is just our brain's interpretation, and there's no reason for that interpretation to match reality in any way. Only problem is - the reality of a wolf ripping out my throat is a pretty good reason to evolve senses that give me a good picture of that reality. I swear, the matrix gave this crap a whole new motivation - and it makes me wanna barf.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @01:08AM (#14389930)
    Religion was invented as a method to control primitive people. Don't do this and don't do that or else the invisible being watching you will smack you.
  • by TheNoxx ( 412624 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @01:10AM (#14389941) Homepage Journal
    Who is this Gottman prick? And why does he feel threatened by "emotional intelligence"?

    Emotional intelligence is not a dangerous idea, merely an expression of maturity without reguard to scholarly learning, as many intellectual elitists are fucking keen on to operate without maturity whatsoever. I believe the notion behind it is that actual ethical good trumps academic research, as academic research is completely fruitless without the purpose to better the lives of the people of the world.

    Let me simplify my thoughts: Who is the better man, a simpleton who emulates Ghandi based on emotional intuition, or someone who sharpens his intellect to the point of brilliance if only to raise himself in the world?

  • by crazyphilman ( 609923 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @01:13AM (#14389949) Journal
    Think about it. Everyone's pissing and moaning about the coming oil shortages, and so on, and NOBODY is thinking about how conveniently flammable alcohol is.

    We have an entire Midwest full of Great Plains which are very well suited to growing grains which could produce alcohol.

    It has been demonstrated that you can run a car on alcohol. Dragsters do it all the time.

    It has been demonstrated that a fuel cell can generate electricity from methanol.

    Alcohol doesn't poison the environment if you spill some. It burns clean if you have a darwinian-selection moment and light it up. And in a pinch, you can drink it. Try THAT with petroleum.

    Well? Wouldn't an alcohol economy be easier than a hydrogen one?

    Just a thought...

  • No (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jd ( 1658 ) <imipak@yahoGINSBERGo.com minus poet> on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @01:19AM (#14389967) Homepage Journal
    The neutrons would be emitted as though from a point source (which a BEC is) and would therefore not hit anything for a chain reaction to occur.


    Now, there MAY be a way to use a BEC more destructively. If you have a BEC that consists of pure deuterium, use magnetic containment to prevent the BEC from expanding back out at all, raise the temperature as close to instantaneously as possible to the point where fusion can occur...


    The BEC obviously can't remain a BEC at superhigh temperatures, so must unfold to some degree. The structure is guaranteed to move to the lowest possible energy state, because that is what atomic structures do. This is part of why it would be important to raise the temperature rapidly. You want it so that there simply is no valid state with deuterium nucleii.


    If deuterium is simply not an option, the nucleii will fuse. They have no alternative. Here is where it gets fun, though. If the energies are high enough and the compression great enough, you can produce elements as far up the periodic table as you like. Unlike normal particle accelerator efforts to produce super-massive atoms, these will actually last for a while - there won't be room for them to fall apart.


    The difficulty in producing the correct conditions would be enormous, but if you could crack that nut, there'd be no theoretical reason why you couldn't push for a nucleus with an atomic mass of a thousand or so.


    The energy to produce such a monster atom would be guaranteed much greater than ALL of the energy output by the fusion reactions. (Iron takes more energy to fuse than it gives out and we're talking something a couple of orders of magnitude larger.) Sustaining it might even be worse.


    The fun part, though, will be in letting it collapse after a time. A very substantial part of the energy put into the fusion of the nucleii would be released in a matter of microseconds over an extremely small space. Current physics predicts that if you exceed a certain energy density, space will "inflate". This might cause the whole of space/time to explode, it might form a pocket universe, or it might do all sorts of other strange things. Nobody knows much about energy densities of that magnitude.

  • yea us? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Heem ( 448667 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @01:23AM (#14389989) Homepage Journal
    KAI KRAUSE [edge.org]

    "The relative innocence and stable period of the last 50 years may spiral into a nearly inevitable exposure to real chaos. What if it isn't haphazard testosterone driven riots, where they cannibalize their own neighborhood, much like in L.A. in the 80s, but someone with real insight behind that criminal energy ? What if Slashdotters start musing aloud about "Gee, the L.A. water supply is rather simplistic, isn't it?" An Open Source crime web, a Wiki for real WTO opposition ? Hacking L.A. may be a lot easier than hacking IE."
  • by saskboy ( 600063 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @01:27AM (#14390004) Homepage Journal
    My ideas that are most dangerous to human life on earth are to invent the transporter, and also warp speed, or impulse spacecraft. Just one spaceship the size of Enterprise A tearing through the Earth at Warp 1 would in theory destroy the earth into a cloud of planet vapour. Transporters would be used to rob every bank devised, and kidnap world leaders. Everyone would have to have a transporter inhibitor, or you'd be kidnapped almost right away, and probably not by aliens, but by the Swords of Righteousness Brigade or their ilk in Iraq.
  • by argoff ( 142580 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @01:31AM (#14390015)

    It's always nice when someone new walks into a process that's been going on for hundreds of years and gets angry that no one sees his simple solution, even though that's where we started and we've been fixing the problems with it ever since.

    Yup. I knew it would be too radical for people to handle.

    They're too busy talking about the financial freedom lost when you have a work force of illiterates who can't add.

    Yup. The notion that people might actually become educated without the government coercing it on everyone - I told you, it is simply too radical for people to handle.

    And your constructive solution is then to let thousands and thousands of people either die or turn to crime? Step one, end social security. What's step two? Please answer. If you've got a way to make this work, please tell us. I really, really want to be on your side, because that's a lot of money.

    Boy, I sure hit the nail on the head. After all, who could ever possibly accept the notion that millions won't die unless the government coerces people to pay for retirement and health care. Yes, it is truely too radical to handle.

    Genius! How could that possibly go bad? Combine this with your no-free-schooling idea and we've got ourselves a plan that just might solve everybody's problem.

    I can see now, that my idea was truely too dangerous. Clearly modding to minus infinity doesn't provide society enough safety. I think you need to have /. trace my IP, to my ISP, and have my ISP trace to my home address so that experts may be hired to rip my toung out, cut off my typing hands, and gouge my peanus out of it's socket to ensure that I can no longer promote such radical ideas or reproduce. Thank you.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @01:37AM (#14390038)
    A number of times I've come to the conclusion that I could very easily inflict some major terrorist type damage to various public/infrastructure type assets without working very hard. Scientists have a HUGE advantage in knowing where the weaknesses of various things are and a lot of our national infrastructure is VERY prone to attacks. People even trust us.

    I've come to the conclusion that terrorists are either very dumb or they are too busy to attack us right now or they are saving up for the next big attack.

    Morbid, I know. Scary too.
  • Re:Mmmmm (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Rei ( 128717 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @01:38AM (#14390043) Homepage
    I was anticipating things that were more destructive. For example, "infecting the human race with a series of 'greedy genes' (as found in some invertebrates - instead of having a 50% chance of being passed to offspring, they cheat and get passed almost 100% of the time), which allow for a simple external cue (chemical, electromagnetic, rhythmic visual or auditory stimulation, etc) for bodily death" or "designing a gene for production of VX gas and infecting diatoms, then releasing them deep in the middle of each large body of water consecutively (Pacific, then Indian, on and on progressively smaller, thus getting a large head start on any attempt to counter the organism". Both of these become more realistic when you consider how quickly people are proceeding along the path of easy to create designer genes, and how already there is amateur genetic engineering. On the non-biological side, you could have ideas such as "Slowly moving the orbits of one or more small asteroids via an ion engine-propelled gravitational tug to impact large NEOs and thus place them onto an Earth collision path"; reduced cost to access space makes this more reasonable for a wealthy individual or moderate-sized company.

    When they said "dangerous", I didn't instinctively think "socially dangerous". I thought "wiping out large numbers of species, potentially including humans"-dangerous.
  • by DECS ( 891519 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @02:13AM (#14390157) Homepage Journal
    A quick Google search will confirm that you're not the only one who's thought of burning alcohol as a fuel.

    Replacing oil with alcohol would not solve our problems.

    Sure, it would invest in agriculture rather than exploiting technology to find, extract and refine crude oil. But It would replace the known problems associated with enriching arab states with a history of bad civil rights, with some unknown problems related to a huge mega-farm raising a monoculture crop. Pesticides, GMO, soil depletion are issues we know would be involved, but what else is involved with monobreed farming on that scale?

    There's also the problem that American bio-energy fuel production could only generate a 10th of the fuel supply that the USA currently uses - and that's only gasoline. There are lots of products we get from crude oil that we can't press out of biomass: think about plastics, asphalt, lubricants.

    Then there's the issue of what we're fueling in the first place: the realized dream of cheap fuel for vehicle freedom has resulted in a transportation engineering crisis that requires moving around and storing enormous cars rather than people. That creates sprawl that eats up farmland so we can have a parking lot around WalMart and sprawling acres of land devoted to roadways, driveways and freeways to link far flung suburban housing developments and equally sprawling office parks, and the previously mentioned WalMarts. Not to mention vehicle's polluting of the the environment.

    And yes you can drink alcohol, but not the 85% Ethanol/15% Gasoline mix we create for cars. It also is only about 30% cleaner than burning raw gasoline, so you might not want to light up indoors. It's also significantly more expensive, even if you ignore the farming subsidies that artificially cheapen it.

    Sometimes the simplest solution is also the least well thought out.

    I would suggest determining the real problems before offering a solution. A nation designed around cars instead of people is definitely part of the problem, and alternative fuel doesn't solve that particular problem at all.
  • Nuclear Economy (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Mr. Flibble ( 12943 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @02:16AM (#14390178) Homepage
    Here is an even more dangerous idea.

    Forgo alcohol/biodiesel.

    Switch to a large number of Pebble Bed Nuclear Reactors [wikipedia.org] like China is doing, and use this energy to run run cars on Hydrogen or electricity.

    Believe it or not, Nuclear power is actually CLEANER ounce per ounce than most other energy methods (Try comparing it to coal, for example, which is still currently used, or many other things.) However, most people are scared of it, because they dont understand it.

    For those about to reply OMG! Nuclear power ZOMG!!!111!!11One!!! You should perhaps read the wikipedia article.
  • by rheotaxis ( 528103 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @02:31AM (#14390220) Homepage
    Our ideas may not matter much after all, as suggested by John Allen Paulos [edge.org]. His idea is short, sweet, and simple: we are not much more than "nominal, marginally integrated entities having convenient labels." Combine this with the anti-anthropocentric ideas of Irene Pepperberg [edge.org], the pan-psychism of Rudy Rucker [edge.org], and the eco-dynamics of Scott Sampson [edge.org], along with the nuclear doubts raised by Jeremy Bernstein [edge.org], and it all seems to make sense after all. We build thermo-nuclear devices becuase we need to help Gaia redistribute excess energy, not because we need the weapons for war. So, this dangerous idea implies no matter what our governments do with the stockpile of weapons grade plutonium, its not going to have much impact off-world.
  • by graveyhead ( 210996 ) <fletchNO@SPAMfletchtronics.net> on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @03:07AM (#14390340)
    I'd like to take issue with an idea that I caught glimpses of in the earliest authors and then one man thrust the problem into the spotlight:
    ARNOLD TREHUB
    Psychologist, University of Massachusetts, Amherst; Author, The Cognitive Brain

    Modern science is a product of biology

    The entire conceptual edifice of modern science is a product of biology. Even the most basic and profound ideas of science -- think relativity, quantum theory, the theory of evolution -- are generated and necessarily limited by the particular capacities of our human biology. This implies that the content and scope of scientific knowledge is not open-ended.

    Wow. Only a psychologist would come up with an idea like this. It's clearly a straw-man argument. The simpler version we've all heard for years: if a tree falls in the forest and noone is around to hear it, does it make a sound? The answer is of course it does. The weight of the tree crashing against the ground via the force of gravity sends a shockwave through the air. Whether or not a person is in range of the shockwave is completely irrelevant.

    This is the highest form of hubris: it takes people/intelligence for quantifications to have meaning. Bullshit.

    Take a universe exactly like ours in every respect with the very minor alteration that life never got started on earth. Well guess what? It still takes a minimum threshold of matter to condense and form a burning star. The label we've given to that threshold is nothing; a mere convienience. The real important fact is that matter *can* condense into a burning star, and it will do so even if there's no humans around to pontificate.

    End rant.
  • by Rakishi ( 759894 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @03:13AM (#14390364)
    Control in a way, and I wouldn't say invented. There is strong evidence that our brains are wired for religion. In other words, religion helped early humans in some way probably by letting them explain the world around them and explaining why certain social norms should be followed. In other words it's the flip side of rationality and logic.

    Now that in itself says nothing about it being required or useful in the modern day (or counterproductive). However, one of the above has been replaced with science and the other isn't required (atheists aren't all moraless bastards).
  • by Coryoth ( 254751 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @03:14AM (#14390367) Homepage Journal
    Wow, quite a list of ideals you'd like to see fulfilled there. It's a shame nowhere in the world really manages to live up to them. No, wait, I think there is at least one.

    Somalia has a free market economy with everything privatised, and no government - freedom for all. Let's see how it stacks up:

    In monitary policy - everyone seems to think that other measures of inflation and growth are more important, than the freedom from controll that the gold standard offers.

    Well there is no real central bank for Somalia anymore as far as I can find, and due to counterfeiting and other problems the Somali currency was so seriously debased that they may as well be using gold instead and use the gol standard.

    In public education - everyone talks about what kind of education the kids need, and noone talks about the financial freedom lost in paying for it, or the very influence that such has on the kids.

    All education in Somalia is private. It's a free market economy with no government. We get a big check for this one.

    In social security and medicade/ medical care - everyones worried about how will we take care of the needy and elderly and noone talks about the people that need to be financially coerced to make these systems work.

    There is no government so there is certainly no social security of medicare equivalent. At worst there is a certain amount of foreign aid and World Bank assistance, but I think that counts as outside charity. A big check for this one too.

    In copyrights and patents - everyone talks about the poor starving inventor or creator, and noone talks about all the people that need to be coerced to make these systems of incentive work.

    We're perfectly good for this one - there is no government of court system to enforce any such thing. A big check here too.

    In the genocide of the poor - noone would even dare mention that the best solution would be to arm them and seciure their right to bear arms first.

    Wow. That's just what Somalia is! A free for all where anyone at all can arm themselves and take part. Sounds perfect.

    And from elsewhere...I'm sorry for responding to my own post, but no argument about freedom would be complete without mentioning the "war on drugs".

    A big check for this one too! Somalia seems to have everything you're looking for. No government coercion, just freedom for everyone and a truly free market economy. The imminent arrival of Somalia as a significant player on the world economic stage seems inevitable given it's almost utopian society. It's been without government for 15 years now, but I'm sure Somalia will well and truly be on it's feet any year now. I expect you'll be moving there, given it's fulfillment of your radical dream, very soon, so perhaps you cna help really get the economy moving.

    Jedidiah.
  • by FleaPlus ( 6935 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @03:29AM (#14390414) Journal
    seriously, when's the last time you and your virtual friends got together and said "Hey, let's go wiki a road! The one to my house is inefficient, and I have a plan. By a magical confluence of pornography and EverQuest, we can more efficiently collect taxes and move hundreds of tons of pavement and dirt!"

    Not quite.

    I personally suspect that if the Internet replaces aspects of government, it'll be by facilitating assurance contracts [wikipedia.org] between individuals. Sites like fundable.org [fundable.org] and PledgeBank [pledgebank.com] are some early implementations, allowing people to more effectively pool resources in pursuit of a common goal.

    Couple good internet-based implementations of assurance contract brokerages with prediction markets [wikipedia.org] and/or decision markets, and I suspect the results should be pretty formidable. Such a system would likely be able to accomplish much of what is currently delegated to government.
  • by temojen ( 678985 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @03:58AM (#14390497) Journal
    A few kilograms of aluminum powder and a small explosive charge. Underwater. (no, I have not tried this one).
  • Re:No (Score:3, Interesting)

    by PlusFiveTroll ( 754249 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @04:07AM (#14390512) Homepage
    Interrestingly enough, to tie this back in to religion, The Tree of Knowledge could be death.

    Over the billions of years the universe has existed, thousands of alien cultures have evolved just like ours, only to have there planet blipped out of existance by an accidential scientific discovery.

    If such a case possible then any "advanced" society is constantly on the brink of destruction, by attempting to control higher and higher energies. We may think nuclear weapons are dangerous (and they are), an alien kids home science Supernova kit could wield chaos on a galatic scale.

    In the end, we are all dead anyway, weather we cook our planet with global warming, a comet smashes us to bits, nano bots turn us go grey goo, or our sun expands to a red giant. At some point thermodynamics wins.
  • Hmmm. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jd ( 1658 ) <imipak@yahoGINSBERGo.com minus poet> on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @04:15AM (#14390540) Homepage Journal
    It would be, except the nucleus is too small to undergo fission and any fissile output (eg: neutrons) would not strike anything. A point source cannot strike itself. That is the truly evil part of this whole thing - what would normally occur cannot do so, which means that the matter has no alternative but to reorganize itself to minimize the energy in other ways.


    It's a bit like taking liquid hydrogen and exerting enough pressure on it to turn it into solid metal. The temperature technically goes up, but it can't remain liquid or convert to a gas because the volume is too small. The most stable state it can enter is a "high-temperature" solid.


    In this case, what we're doing is compressing a BEC "superatom" to a temperature in which it can no longer remain a BEC, but it cannot revert to deuterium atoms either. Neither is stable, under the conditions imposed. The only alternative is for the nuclei to fuse together, because it is the only valid way left that they can reduce the space requirements to what they have.


    You'd need to be a little careful, though. You don't want to leave any nuclei with no valid state, or you're going to squish the lot into a quark-gluon soup. Again, that could be nasty, as I'm not sure you can magnetically contain the gluons... which ARE going to react with the containment system.

  • by Jamie Lokier ( 104820 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @04:33AM (#14390593) Homepage
    When the word was coined, the original meaning of "agnostic" was that one admits to not _knowing_, and being intellectually honest about that, instead of saying that one knows there is (a) god, or knows there isn't. Some people of conscience cannot do otherwise than declare that they don't know, no matter what they still put their faith in.

    It is right there in the word: "a-gnostic", where gnostic refers to knowledge, and agnostic refers to the lack of it.

    Nowadays, "agnosticism" is often taken to mean declaring a lack of _belief_ either way - and here "belief" refers to "have faith in", not "known to be true beyond doubt". (The word "belief" is itself confusing, because different people take it to mean different things, or even the same people in different contexts, without making those differences plain).

    My guess is that this change in the word "agnostic" over time makes sense as more and more people, including devout religious people and atheists, analyse their beliefs to the degree that they accept their knowledge is not absolute, but they have faith or commit to following the implications of their beliefs anyway. In a sense, the original idea "agnostic" has become more widespread, so the word isn't used for that so much now.

    The upshot is that "agnostic" does _not_ mean "atheist" in another guise. Because an atheist puts his/her belief (as in motivation/faith) in "there is no god". That is different from the agnostic's belief (as in motivation/faith): "I don't know if there is god" - the latter being more intellectually honest for many people. Some agnostics put their faith in god while acknowledging they don't know if god exists. That is intellectually honest for some meanings of the word "faith", but not others. A genuine atheist would not do that.

    I admit the above explanation is a little messy, because I don't define the terms very well, and it's been a while since I thought about the topic. Sorry; I'm tired. The points are valid, but not so well explained in the above. Study theories of knowledge - epistemology - to gain clearer insights into the range of meanings assigned to the terms like "belief" and "know".

    -- Jamie
  • Comment removed (Score:2, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @04:41AM (#14390618)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:No (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ceoyoyo ( 59147 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @04:46AM (#14390630)
    I think the idea was that since all the atoms in the BEC are in the same state, if one decays, do they all decay, simultaneously? Not because of a chain reaction, but because they are all in an identical state so why should one decay and not the rest. Then instead of having a chunk of, say, uranium release energy over a few billion years, all the energy is released at precisely the same time.
  • What is Dangerous? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by csrster ( 861411 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @04:47AM (#14390640)
    Although interesting, the survey was slightly screwed up by lack of clarity of in the question. Some interpreted it as asking for something false which other people believe to be true, others as something true which other people believe to be false. (Thus both "there is a God" and "there is not a God" were posited as dangerous ideas by non-believers.)

    A more interesting interpretation is an idea you _hope_ is false but are afraid might be true. I would suggest the following as a dangerous idea: the benefits of liberal democracy are wholly dependent on the immoral economic exploitation of the third world and the unsustainable exploitation of limited planetary resources.

    I certainly hope it's false. I would like to believe that the prosperity of the West could be exported to the rest of the world and we could all live happily ever after. But I have this nagging, nasty fear that it's all a short-lived dream based on turning a blind-eye to ruthless economic imperialism and the laws of science.
  • "Mere animal" (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Flying pig ( 925874 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @04:54AM (#14390664)
    You've given yourself away there as a religious fundamentalist, not a thinking human being. And your statement is nonsense. There are plenty of animal species that have been around far longer than we have. There are also species (bonobo chimpanzee) that have evolved relatively peaceful matriarchal societies which would suggest that, in the absence of their biggest predator (us) they would have a long life expectancy.

    The fundies demanding special treatment for human beings in these posts have obviously never closely observed another reasonably advanced mammalian species. Our spaniel has a well developed sense of right and wrong and you can easily see the debate ranging in his little mind as he wonders whether he can or should do something he is not allowed to do but wants to. In a small compass he displays much of the typical human behaviour - you can see the roots of religion, society and inquisitiveness.

    Unfortunately there is a sequence of ideas here with an evil end. "Mere animals" - "humans who aren't like me so are mere animals" - "it's OK to kill people who aren't like me because they are just animals." You find this thinking wherever you find fundamentalist Semitic religions (mainly Christianity and Islam- this is nothing to do with being Jewish), whereas many Eastern religions are less likely to suffer from this anthroposupremacist error.

  • Dawkins Letter (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Chrononium ( 925164 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @04:57AM (#14390675)
    I know that Dawkins sometimes plays the shock jock, but his own response to the question is indeed dangerous. It is a fantastically dangerous concept to believe that we are simply the sum of our parts. If a person does not function correctly (as measured by some powerful external social construct), then that person must be repaired. It strikes at the heart of the Holocaust, in which it was supposedly determined that a whole population was broken (and Dr. Dawkins is not so far off the mark, as he views religion of any sort as a mental virus) and the only practical solution was extermination. Dawkins' response fails to take into consideration any respect for individual human beings, hobbled or otherwise.

    Just another bit of proof that scientists generally suck at philosophy.
  • by kevin_osborne ( 691303 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @05:23AM (#14390760) Homepage

    The trouble is that the solution people offer to inequity is usually what caused the problem in the first place.

    ok so let me guess... it's government, right! the old 'drown it in the bathtub' boogeyman. distribution of equity is _definitely_ the governments fault. bad government! bad! we surely shouldn't blame generation after generation of capital holders bleeding the GDP of the nation and gaining a greater and greater percentage of total wealth that has left the expanding population with less and less to go around, how should we?.

    in the 70's wages was 70% of received GDP... now it's under %50. less money is being paid to more people while rich individuals and corporations further consolidate (and don't spend!) their wealth. governments, in general, spend in ways to reduce this inequality - e.g. social security. i can say that private capitalists are rapacious misers, and that eric raymond is a racist gun nut; and in the end me calling people names is just as childish as you crying tinfoil tears at the government.

    ... it is by it's very nature and structure a system of hierarchy and authority, and so increasing the power and resources of the state can only increase inequality and subjugation.

    hey, who needs causality! I can say 'dogs + chili = economics' but trying to pass it off as cause+effect is nonsense. at the very least, how about some evidential proof of a correlation?

    the idea of the state (should be) to foster administration of the wider community for the good of all. the state should be as decentralized as possible; local community leaders should be invested with as much power as possible to determine their own affairs and the (incredibly difficult) job of prioritising the allocation of monies should be determined by a safeguarded, corruption-resistant regime - we call it the beauracracy. most public servants i have met are stout personalities with a sense of due diligence, fairness and social responsibilty. and yes the rest were slackers but the rate has been signicantly less than my experience in prviate organisations, where the majority (more name-calling) are greedy, self-centred ingrates.


    If you truly want equality, then you would support decentralization of power, and the reduction and/or elimination of the state. Inequality comes from violence...

    decentralization of power=decentralized state. you know, city councils, first responders, utility managers; those awful people who do nothing for us. how about your local social security office, rape crisis centre, orphanage, school. we surely don't need any of _those_ now do we. and we surely shouldn't have rigid protections and assurances of these services via.. wait for it... _government_, now should we?

    further decentralization comes from _expansion_ of the state; tribal/cultural leaders, church deacons, scout troops, little leaguers, big sister/brother etc. funding these and similar programs in order to foster them in communities which lack them will give more and more power to _local_ people to make a positive change in their _local_ communities.

    and yes it costs more in taxes - so what? is it better that bill gates pays less tax so he can buy him and ballmer a double-headed dildo made of interleaved gold? or is it better that the money raised be given to social workers to help disadvantaged kids and battered women escape their nightmare existences?

    oh no! I'm in america! i'm super rich in comparision to everyone in the world! even my poor, poor neighbor earns more than an african villiage! i have unlimited opportunities thanks to my business leaders raping and pillaging the natural resources and labour of poor peoples around the globe! and oh my god i have the lowest income tax rates in the OECD! how _dare_ they take my money from me! they are a wasteful, wasteful, evil beauracracy! excuse me while i drive my three ton truck to the woods so i can shoot near-extinct animals with my lovingly oiled fantasy
  • by (SM) Spacemonkey ( 812689 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @06:28AM (#14390914)
    By almost any available metric equality simply does not exist. Any reasonably apt person has looked at the standard distribution of intelligence and the mathematically certainty has hit them; 'average is pretty stupid, and half the population has to be less'. Countless other examples exist, including the golden calves of race and gender. These thoughts have been used and abused throughout all history. People react in differing ways, some want to crush those 'beneath them', others want to ignore it and embrace everyone as 'one'.

    A thought that weighed heavily on Shakespeare's mind, among many others, were the things that are universal, the things that do bind us as equals. Life and death.

    Choice! Aye there is the rub. We do not choose the manner of our birth nor (for the most part) our death. I think it was Adam Johnson who first linked this concept with that of equality. The analogy of birth was taking all the characteristics of humanity; our personality, our physicality, our experiences, our potential and our opportunities and putting them in a opaque bag which, once shuffled, would be redistributed at birth. With this is mind, now design a society, a government, an economy and a culture around this limitation. With this in mind, design how you would wish to live and what kind of world you would want passed on to your descendants.

    This is the only way I have been able to retain my sanity and hold the apparently mutually exclusive concepts of 'there is no equality' and 'striving for equality is noble' as both true.

    And I applaud this article, because I have long believed that the most dangerous of all things is thought.
  • by Jamie Lokier ( 104820 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @07:28AM (#14391105) Homepage
    Dr. Drew's observation that bi people settle into one or the other group (i.e. homo or hetero) may well be correct. I am inclined to agree that it's often helped along by traumatic lifestyle or childhood problems, for some years. But: who doesn't have traumas? I suggest virtually everyone has childhood "issues" which reverberate through their years of sexual identity discovery (whether that's orientation, or other aspects of sexual identity such as religious taboos, fetishes, shame about perceived unusual fantasies, lack of knowledge, etc.).

    But that doesn't tell us whether the bi-curious settle because society treats them better for doing that... or if they settle because they finally discover their "innate" sexual orientation...

    Certainly, I have met a relatively large proportion of people who identify as bi, who complain that both the hetero world, and the homo world (i.e. gay friendly environments), often reject or dismiss bisexuals as somehow fence-sitters, or undecided, or likely to change and therefore dump their partner, or are traitors, or something.

    Unfortunately, those compaints are consistent with the theory that people who settle into one of the homo/hetero orientations may be doing it because that's more socially comfortable. It doesn't prove the theory, but it supports it's plausibility.

    I wonder what people would do, in a society where they are encouraged to be sexual in whatever way they enjoy each day... rather than trying to please other people or stay out of trouble.

    Perhaps the next 50 years will gives us some clue.

    -- Jamie
  • Hamlet II, ii (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Cappy Red ( 576737 ) <(moc.oohay) (ta) (nootekim)> on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @07:35AM (#14391127)
    "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculties! in form and moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension, how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust?"
    --From Hamlet (II, ii, 115-117ish)

    Most of the people who are, or will argue with you will likely cite art, and the appreciation of abstract beauty in their proofs. For me, I'd include those, and also that it is what I want to believe.

    Why are you attached to the idea of setting us so low?
  • by Peter La Casse ( 3992 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @09:52AM (#14391615)
    There was a great racist theory going around for a long time, that sounded remarkably like what you've described above. We didn't understand the language of the African persons, or Indian persons, and as such there was no evidence they were having deep reflective thoughts. And without deep reflective thoughts, they aren't human. (Of course, many African tribes thought the same about the white people. Many still do, basically correctly).

    Basically correctly? Surely you don't agree with them that white people aren't human?

  • Re:Nuclear Economy (Score:3, Interesting)

    by egarland ( 120202 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @11:00AM (#14392009)
    I never understood the whole pebble bed concept. Why scatter tons of potentially deadly, potentially world-destroying nuclear fuel through densely populated areas?

    I'm all for nuclear power but, please, make giant super-sites with 20 huge reactors far from population centers that can be efficiently secured and guarded and where economies of scale can allow maintainance and monitoring to be top-notch and yet still cost less. And build an airforce base next to it (or it next to a base) to provide full military defense capabilites.

    It's worth the extra 10% or so transmission loss to centralize reactors.
  • by Medievalist ( 16032 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @12:51PM (#14392880)
    the complete lack of religion is better known as atheism
    The complete lack of theism is atheism. Or to put it another way, atheists don't believe in gods. There are at least a couple of mainstream religions that do not believe in gods (yes, Jainism is mainstream) so therefore atheist religions do exist, dig?

    Like 99.9% of slashdot's denizens, you've equated religion with a small subset of religion (although hopefully you are not also equating religion with fundamentist Xianity, or making the even worse mistake of redefining the nature of religion to suit American cultural biases).

    Talk to a non-murtipujak Jain, or a Zen Bhuddist, or a Unitarian Universalist. Belief in deity is not required in any of those religions. Although belief in coffee is generally a UU requirement.
  • Re:evolution of evil (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Chrononium ( 925164 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @02:12PM (#14393631)
    The concept of a powerful demon is not unique nor invented by Christianity; you simply happen to live in a society largely constructed by the faithful (at least nominally) followers of one of the 3 great middle-eastern religions. Even if you do not personally anthropomorphize evil (or its source), I hope that you believe it does exist. The greatest problem with pre-1960's relativism is that it denied the existence of evil (where evil = absolute moral wrong). If you still abide by this broken system, at least move on to modern relativism, where there are 3 absolute moral statements.
  • Re:evolution of evil (Score:2, Interesting)

    by MarkCollette ( 459340 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @03:21PM (#14394384)
    But maybe that's just because most wars now seem to be for arbitrary political reasons, whereas a stuggle for local resources against a competing tribe might trigger different emotional and hormonal responses.
  • by Valdrax ( 32670 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @05:45PM (#14395688)
    Free people from a giant, violent, centralized authority like a government, and equality, prosperity, and peace are the natural result.

    Not necessarily. Instead, you get many competing violent authorities who pile up a lot of bodies fulfilling the natural human desires to get higher in the pecking order until peace is established by one of them becoming the single giant, centralized authority.

    Of course, this is technically a straw man argument about anarchy since you haven't truly argued for statelessness, but constant references to violence in minarchist arguments tend to lead one to the natural assumption that you are arguing against any sort of government violence against the people instead of just the law standing behind the tax collectors.

    In a minarchist's perfect world, government only exists to keep men from pursuing direct violence against one another and from misappropriating legally owned private property. This world in and of itself does not guarantee utopia. It all rests on one assumption which you voice right here:

    Inequality comes from violence... it comes from situations where people are not allowed to make decisions for themselves and instead are forced to do something under the threat of violence.

    Not always. Sometimes people are forced to do things to avoid starvation or lesser problems. The only reason we have a market for menial labor is because it is the only way that uneducated people can feed and clothes themselves and their children. You need to read "Nickled and Dimed" to see how desperate the situation is for the working majority of poor people. There honestly isn't a lot of freedom when you don't have enough money to put down the first month's rent for an apartment and have to instead take the more expensive and less secure option of renting week-to-week at a motel. You can't take time off from work to go to the doctor (even if you could afford it) because you wouldn't earn enough money to feed yourself. You won't tell a cruel boss to shove it and go look for a new job because you don't have the money to survive multiple weeks of unemployment. You can't afford to take time off to retrain and get better skills because you;re working 11-15 hours a day on multiple jobs.

    These people already are economically subjugated but not by government. They're subjugated by a largely distributed private sector instead of a centralized government. They don't have opportunities because opportunity requires the ability to have a period of self-sufficiency and free time that aren't available to people in their economic state. Without government or enough private charity funding (which would probably indicate enough of a public sentiment to have government handle it), these people would have no future. If you took away public education, social security, and medicare & medicaid, they wouldn't received back nearly enough taxes to make up the difference to pay for these essential services themselves. Without labor laws, unemployment laws, the minimum wage (which has already atrophied almost to the point of uselessness thanks to inflation), these people would be little more than slaves with the ability to choose their master.

    It doesn't take violence to grind away a person's spirit and to make them a slave. The callous apathy of society at large and financial desperation are more than enough. I remember from History what the so-called "Gilded Age" was like, and I personally don't want to see a return of those days when the only law of business was that of the contract and the life of labor was cheap and expendable.
  • Re:Nuclear Economy (Score:3, Interesting)

    by crazyphilman ( 609923 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @08:26PM (#14396994) Journal
    Oh, I love pebble-bed nuclear reactors. I think they're an excellent idea. You could run one in every major town and city; the best part is that when the fuel is spent, it's contained in its "pebble" so it's much safer to dispose of. It's a great technology.

    But alcohol could be a useful addition to that. You could use methanol to fuel personal electronics (instead of batteries, which don't give you much bang for your buck and which are difficult to dispose of cleanly). You could also use it as combustion-engine fuel.

    There are a lot of pieces that can go into this type of puzzle. There's wave power, the thermal convection concept they just posted a separate story about, wind power...

    They all work, and there's no reason they can't all work together.

  • Re:Nuclear Economy (Score:3, Interesting)

    by crazyphilman ( 609923 ) on Wednesday January 04, 2006 @08:31PM (#14397019) Journal
    As I understood an article I read a while back, it's really more about safely containing the nuclear material than making the reactor small -- the nuclear material is sealed into a (graphite?) pebble, which won't ever leak or contaminate anything. It's a good idea, don'cha think?

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