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Television Media Hardware

The Dutch Kill Analog TV Nationwide 401

Willem de Koning writes Yesterday the Netherlands completely ended transmission of analog television signals, becoming the first country in the world to do so. So what about cars and portable TVs? I'm guessing a market will emerge for portable set top boxes / converters." The article mentions the timetable for other countries to go all-digital; by 2011 most or all of the developed world will have made the switch.
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The Dutch Kill Analog TV Nationwide

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  • Uh, huh... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by __aaclcg7560 ( 824291 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @02:45PM (#17211526)
    ... by 2011 most or all of the developed world will have made the switch.

    And all those obsolete TVs will be dumped in the third world for scrap prices. Going digital might be nice as long as it doesn't destroy the environment and set the third world further back.
  • 2011? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Peter La Casse ( 3992 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @02:46PM (#17211554)

    Does the 2011 prediction assume that the US won't push the date back again? Does it assume that the reasons for US politicians to push the date back don't apply to politicians in other countries?

    The conversion from analog to digital TV is in progress. Trying to guess now when the tipping point will actually occur is useless.

  • by 4solarisinfo ( 941037 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @02:47PM (#17211580)
    Wasn't the FCC in the USA going to require this changeover by the year 2000 once upon a time? I've been hearing this story since I first took TV production classes 20 years ago. Sure the future marches forward, but I don't have a flying car yet either. Sometimes change takes a while...
  • It's really bad for the North American 8VSB [wikipedia.org] standard used in ATSC [wikipedia.org]. The COFDM [wikipedia.org] used in the "rest of the world's" "DVB-T [wikipedia.org]" is only marginally better.

    Probably mucho DSP power will eventually compensate, but don't expect portable units to pick up digital TV signals terribly well if they are moving for at least the next several years.

  • Re:Uh, huh... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by MaWeiTao ( 908546 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @03:26PM (#17212138)
    There are millions of people who live on less than $25,000 per year in North America and they are probably not going to rush out to spend hundreds of dollars on a new TV.


    Well, I know of two cable guys who would disagree with that statement. They'd point out that there are probably more people who earn less than $25,000 in the inner city who own new HDTVs than you'd find in most middle-class neighborhoods. And by the time 2009 comes around these television sets will be even cheaper, assuming people dont just get adapters. I just hope that in the US we don't start seeing tax dollars go to handouts to provide assistance to people who supposedly can't afford a brand new TV set.
  • by Agent Green ( 231202 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @03:52PM (#17212556)
    I remember this from my Communications 101 class. I wish I remember which documentary I saw in class, but it's one of a few that ignites my vigor against some of the practices of big business. Anyway ...

    FM is something we owe to the late Edwin Armstrong, a former employee of RCA. In fact, he was pretty much on his own to get FM out, but was able to prove it to the FCC and actually had a frequency band allocated. Armstrong was hoping to make something from the royalties off his invention.

    David Sarnoff (head of RCA) was a major asshole during this arena. You see ... FM was kicking the living shit out of AM, quality-wise. In addition to dragging things out with Armstrong in a lawsuit, they got the entire FM band changed to a different frequency, effectively destroying everything Armstrong has marketed, sold and built to that date. Talk about corporate-induced obsolesence.

    Unfortunately, the rumblings with RCA left Armstrong on the losing end and despite all the work and the major contribution to modern communications, he committed suicide.

    Obligatory Wiki here [wikipedia.org].
  • by Vellmont ( 569020 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @04:17PM (#17212914) Homepage
    ...as long as you don't know what the artifacts of overly-compressed digital video look like. If you do, it can look absolutely awful.

    Is that kind of like Wiley-Coyote knowing about gravity, and suddenly being affected by it?

    I actually see the effects of overly-compressed digital video all the time, as I have satellite TV. It's occasionally annoying, but not really a big deal. I haven't watched a lot of over-the-air digital TV, but I've yet to see artifacts, only poor signal quality from a station that's 35 miles away on my ad-hoc antenna.
  • by Phreakiture ( 547094 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @04:17PM (#17212928) Homepage

    ATSC requires less energy to transmit than DVB-T, due to the use of 8VSB modulation rather than OFDM; hence it is cheaper to use. If the USA were as densely packed as most of Europe, then DVB-T would probably be a slam dunk, but we have vast rural areas, and idiotically-built suburbs, and the TV signal needs to reach its audience at a cost that the broadcasters can sustain.

  • ATSC = Red State TV. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Kadin2048 ( 468275 ) <.ten.yxox. .ta. .nidak.todhsals.> on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @04:33PM (#17213178) Homepage Journal
    ATSC provides better reception in fringe areas; DVB-T's modulation scheme is aimed more towards urban viewers (better resistance to multipath, etc.). To put it bluntly, in the U.S., rural viewers were apparently considered more important than urban ones, so DVB-T got dumped in favor of ATSC. So if you live around tall buildings, consider yourself to have been screwed. (I think there was also a big, steaming helping of "Not Invented Here" syndrome; no red-blooded American (Senator) was going to support some pansy-ass European television format. That's like admitting we can't do better, and that's unpossible!)

    Sadly, the changeover to digital TV could have been a golden opportunity for the world to settle on a single standard for television, something we've never had. I guess the significance of analog TV is waning, but I've spent my whole life thinking that the whole NTSC/PAL/SECAM incompatibility thing was really a waste, and that maybe when everyone switched to digital, they'd see the light and not go down that road again.
  • by manuel.flury ( 782888 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @05:26PM (#17214000) Homepage Journal
    Because EU wrote a law saying that each member state has to use terrestrial digital Tv before a date (2010 ???) and 5 years after the launch of the digital TV (TNT in France) analogic has to be switched off. So I guess this is what happened here.
  • ach, that's silly (Score:4, Interesting)

    by swschrad ( 312009 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @05:32PM (#17214126) Homepage Journal
    radio signals from the vast majority of US broadcasters, at 5 kilowatts power, are regularly audible over 120 miles. skywave bounces off the ionosphere cause pockets of listenability for many thousands of miles. the "B" contour of most commercial TV broadcasters, running 25 KW to 100 KW of power audio and 10 to 50 Kw video, where some interference is likely but a good picture is pulled in almost all the time with an external gain antenna beam, runs 50 to 80 miles out.

    every major metropolitan area is served with numerous 5KW radio stations, and those below midband are predictably audible across the SMSA boundary almost all the time, which encompasses radiuses of 20 to 40 miles.

    on such technical material are the frequencies, powers, and beam patterns of radio licenses calculated. this is well-trodden ground, the number of communications lawyers in Washington, DC is second only to the K-street melange of political lobbyists, and they all use the same polar calculations to insure that radio KRAP applies for a license they can actually get authorized and sell enough ads to make money on.

    amateur and shortwave radio can be expected at various bands and at various times, to be useable for two-way communications worldwide.

    the 20-mile limit of Doctor Crumb needs some documentation. Soviet "chord" jamming of the 60s had to be done at the 100 to 200 KW level to drown out the state-run shortwave transmitters of Europe and the US, clearly audible any hour day or night in the US, and with the european state stations running up to 250 KW, they still got listeners.

    yes, inverse-square laws apply. so do good construction principles. in the 1920s, primitive tube radios were made with great sensitivity, and if you had a good set, there was no problem listening on one coast of the US to the other coast nightly. that usually requires better than a 1 microvolt per meter sensitivity, and just about any crummy one-chip radio can do that today.

    I might buy 20 miles for UHF television, merely because this follows line of sight rules with no skywave. but you can erect a tower of 1 + (4/3 (earth radius)) = h in feet and place an antenna, and get the signal of a typical TV broadcaster 35 KW or higher for over a hundred miles on any production TV set.

    no, it gets back to hunger for frequencies, the desire of governments to reassign these frequencies in costly auctions for big dollars, and a serendipitous moment of technology change they can exploit for the purpose to explain why analog commercial broadcasting is going, going, gone. if they ever wanted to get the REALLY big bucks, move the technology into their military nets and sell THAT excess bandwidth. in the US, the military controls 99% of all assignable bandwidth DC to daylight, and has not given up one single 400 Hz channel since the Communications Act of 1939.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @06:57PM (#17215606)
    Dutch used to mean Dutch and German. That's why the Pennsylvania Dutch (who come from Constance, down on the Swiss border) are so called. It is a version of the word "duits", which is the same as the German "deutsch", as in "Deutschand", the German name for Germany.

    This is the national anthem of the Netherlands:

    Wilhelmus van Nassouwe
    ben ik, van Duitsen bloed,
    den vaderland getrouwe
    blijf ik tot in den dood.
    Een Prinse van Oranje
    ben ik, vrij, onverveerd,
    den Koning van Hispanje
    heb ik altijd geëerd.

    The first lines are translated as follows:
    William of Nassau, scion
    Of a Dutch and ancient line,
    I dedicate undying
    Faith to this land of mine.

    My literal translation of the first two lines:

    William of Nassau
    am I, of Dutch blood...

    In short it is odd to claim that "Dutch" is an English invention.
  • by Simonetta ( 207550 ) on Tuesday December 12, 2006 @10:50PM (#17218112)
    Another option for all the obsolete NTSC televisions is for people to set up neighborhood broadcasting stations.
        I assume, and this might be crazy on my part, that all of the stations that the obsolete TVs used to receive will be blank or raw static. In this case, people who set up illegal small area broadcast stations are getting a free communications medium along with an attentive audience. Play videos such as Hollywood films (if you're already illegal due to your broadcasting, then what difference does copyright infringement make?) and/or YouTube-type stuff and intersplice it with your own political viewpoints instead of commercials. Keep loose and mobile with your transmitter. It will only be the poor people who will be watching your illegal broadcasts because all the middle-class will have cable.

        I really don't believe that NTSC broadcasting is going to go away in the USA. There's too much of an audience that would be lost for the advertisers.
  • Wrong again (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Dion ( 10186 ) on Wednesday December 13, 2006 @05:28AM (#17220302) Homepage
    Well, somewhat wrong.

    The huge amount of lead (much more than half the weight) that a TV contains is in the form of lead-glass.

    The lead-glass is not ever going to be diluted by water, so that's a complete non-issue.

    There are other sources of lead, like the solder used, but it's not that large an amount, lead isn't very soluble in water and all landfills have a watertight membrane underneath to keep the nasties out of the ground water.

    Don't worry about it.

    That said it's a bit silly to scrap tvs just because their turners don't work, with SCART (read:The RGB inputs on all european tvs) and the fact that most DVB is still Lowres you can just use an external tuner and the result will be just as nice (or nicer) as if you had changed the entire tv.

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