HP's Windows Bundle Trouble

narramissic writes "A French consumer group has filed 3 lawsuits against HP, saying the company's practice of selling consumer PCs with Windows pre-installed violates a French law that 'prohibits linking the functionality of a product to another product' — not to mention that consumers wind up paying for an unwanted OS. For its part, HP contends that it is not in violation of the law because the OS is integral to the PC. 'The PC without an OS is not a product because it doesn't work,' said Alain Spitzmuller, legal affairs director for HP France. 'We believe the market is for products that work.'"

Isn't that what got IBM into hot water?

[the_skywise]

Forcing software sales along with hardware ones?

"doesn't work"

[doshell]

'The PC without an OS is not a product because it doesn't work,' said Alain Spitzmuller [...]

In other news, auto dealers are now obliged to sell cars with all the gasoline they'll ever need to run, CD players must come with the complete works of modern music prepackaged (RIAA fees included), and TV sets have to carry recordings of all future programmes to be aired.

Re:Refund?

[bogaboga]

http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/ [merlins.org]

Re:It has a bios, doesn't it?

[TeacherOfHeroes]

Sure its a product. It's a physical product. The absurdity that the configuration of a few bits on the hard drive magically changes the thing from "not a product" to "product" boggles the mind. Its just not quite as out-of-the-boxish.

At the very least, they should give the user a choice, thereby no longer linking the hardware to that one specific piece of software. Consider one of those online confur-o-matic things. The base PC models should come with a cheaper/free OS like linux, and (as much as I hate and disagree with the phrasing) users could choose to "upgrade" to windows.

Also, A DVD player without DVD is not a product...

[GodWasAnAlien]

A DVD player without a DVD is not a product, because it doesn't work...
A DVD player without a TV is not a product, because it doesn't work...
A toy without batteries is not a product, because it doesn't work...

While you need to go to a store to buy batteries and DVD for your non-products,
for an OS, you may not even need to go to the store. You could download one of many free Linux (or BSD or other) OS's many of which do not even need to be installed to function.

Perhaps batteries are not the best comparison.

Re:It has a bios, doesn't it?

[NotQuiteReal]

Yes, but when Joe Sixpack (or, in this case, Pierre 2 Litres) turns on his new PC and it says:

Reboot and Select proper Boot Device (Réinitialisation et dispositif approprié choisi d'initialisation )

Don't you think he might call HP and say "My PC doesn't work!" ???

Have you ever considered this; Most people want "Windows" - if PC's didn't come with it would Microsoft make more selling retail copies at retail prices vs the couple of extra bucks they get now, with the de facto "Windows tax".

On the other hand, I guess what you are hoping is that consumers would be so pissed off at having to pay more than the bundled price for Windows that they would try "something else".

Re:Complicated things?

[644bd346996]

The most that would result from these lawsuits would be that HP (and probably other companies) would be compelled to give the consumers the CHOICE of purchasing a pc without an operating system. Please stop implying otherwise.

Re:Isn't that what got IBM into hot water?

[nacturation]

So why doesn't France go after Apple? Can I buy a Mac with no operating system prebundled? Why am I forced to subsidize OS X when I purchase Apple hardware?
 

Re:Let me enlighten HP!

[paving-slab]

No, idiot, they sell the pc for x, and if you want to you can pay x+y to purchase one with windows installed.

Re:He's an idiot

[hyperquantization]

Yes, it would definitely be very nice for there to be such a choice. But think about it: to whom does HP market their products? Are these people going to trouble themselves with installing an OS? or are they just going to move onto the next vendor? Excuse my ignorance of specific market statistics, but I'm willing to guess that the population of users finicky enough to want a pre-built from HP that has something other than Windows installed, and are gifted with enough time and experience to install it themselves, yet not enough to build one themselves, just isn't a very wide market. If the market isn't there, or just isn't significant enough to matter, then the resources required to add such a choice would be wasted, hence why the choice simply does not exist. If you really want that choice, then go find a vendor that builds OS-free boxes, because HP, or any large company for that matter, isn't going to turn a profit on only a few people. So I'll have to side with the big, nasty corporation on this one.

This is great

[Registered Coward v2]

Maybe we can get more countries to file lawsuits like this - against as many companies as possible.
Cell phones that force us to use Symbian OS instead of letting us roll our own. Cars that are bundled with Renault engines instead of letting us install one from Abarth.

hell, why not just make it illegal to assemble anything from components and let us build it ourselves.

Then their system will be as tort happy as ours and we will regain some of the advantages we lost. Viva la France - Libertie, Egalitie, Unbundletie!!!

Re:He's an idiot

[jlarocco]

So? His statement is still false.

Even if you make the assumption that the OS is a required part of the computer, there's still no reason they should only bundle Windows. They offer a variety of case designs to choose from. nVidia or ATI graphics cards to choose from. AMD or Intel processors to choose from. So why no choice on operating system?

Re:He's an idiot

[Malenfrant]

A large part of the reason why Windows is so popular, is that most companies that sell prebuilt, ready to use PCs come with Windows installed, and don't offer any other choices. This is the situation that the French law was created to attempt to change, as it distorts the OS market in favour of Microsoft. It could well be too late to change this, but if companies like HP continue to offer no other choice, then it will never change. You could argue that it is Microsoft who should be sued for forcing exclusivity with their discounts, but in my opinion, something needs to be done to end this market distortion, and this opinion has nothing to do with any pesonal opinion about Microsoft I might hold, the same thing holds true in other markets. This is exactly what the anti-monopoly laws are designed to prevent.

Re:He's an idiot

[ozmanjusri]

So, you can do something with a computer with NO OS on it?

You can chuck a Knoppix dvd in the drive and be productive within minutes.

Re:We believe the market is for products that work

[darkonc]

They're not necessarily asking to Mandate that HP sell machines without OS. Just that people not be forced to buy their HP-computer with MS-Windows.

The paper analogy doesn't really work because paper is a consumable, so once you finish off your box of (mandated) Weyerhauser paper, you can buy the rest of your supplies from Scott, or whomever.

This is especially a problem because, nowadays, MS-Windows is a significant part of the price of a low-end PC. This might be more like buying a $200 printer and finding that it comes with 3 cases of Weyerhauser virgin-forest salmon pink paper. This is fine for people who

• don't prefer recycled paper,
• don't mind printing on salmon pink
• like the quality of Weyerhauser paper
• actually expect to use 3 cases of paper in the life of the printer, and
• don't mind paying for $100 of paper up front.

Part of the fallacy, as well, is the presumption that HP (and DELL, and Gateway) made the decision to mandate MS-Windows on (almost) all of their computers in the absence of any arm-twisting by MS. What this case is really meant to do is un-twist HP's arm so that all of the OS distributers left standing these days have a level playing field when it comes to selling their OS to prospective customers.

Re:He's an idiot

[trianglman]

However, if this lawsuit does go through and HP loses (here's hoping) then every computer manufacturer that hopes to do business in France will have to care. This will mean either MS lessens its bulk licensing requirements, or everyone will face an increased PC cost. Either way its a win and a good precedent.

Also, if this winds up going before the whole EU, which I wouldn't be surprised, I can't see them ruling for HP and MS based on previous antitrust rulings.

Re:He's an idiot

[Hal_Porter]

A lot of the time, that's more expensive. E.g. WinModems were cheaper than hardware modems because the signal processing was done by Windows. But the specs were closed so it was hard to support them on Linux.

But if you're a PC manufacturer, it's not worth jeopardising your sales to people who want Windows by using a hardware modem rather than a software one, since that adds to the build cost. Microsoft being Microsoft, they will always try to create this sort of situation, where the PC manufacturers can save a few bucks at the cost of being able to run alternative OSs. And given that the vast majority of PCs run Windows, it will continue to work.

But it's always been possible to get a PC with no OS if you build it yourself. In fact, I've never bought a pre built desktop, since they tend to use cheaper chipsets and graphics cards than I want to use.

Laptops are harder of course, but there are whitebox laptops too, they're just harder to find, e.g.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/56/1/ [legitreviews.com]

better analogy (was Re:Bad analogy)

[Lawrence_Bird]

better analogy:

it is not required that you buy a dvd of a movie when buying a new dvd player.  Certainly
the new dvd player is useless and performs no function until such a time as you load a
dvd of some content.   One can view the pc in a similar manner - it plays content, be
that the windows os, linux, bsd or your own home grown asm os. 

Tank != 3-year supply

[tepples]

But when you buy a new car, do you not also expect it to come with a tank of gas?

BIOS is a tank of gas. Windows is a 3-year gas card to one brand of gas station.

Lies, damned lies, and astro-turfing.

[darkonc]

There are lots of lies in this article:

• First is the presumption that a computer (shipped) without an OS is useless... I can pop in a Knoppix disk and do most of the things that people use their computers for without installing any OS -- banking, messaging, skype, word processing, photo editing, etc., etc., ... His statement is false.
• second is that that that Windows is the only OS that anybody would ever want.
• third is the implicit claim of the (many) astro-turfers that this suit is meant to prevent HP from selling computers with MS-Windows.... From TFA:

  UFC said it wants consumers to be able to choose the software for their machine and get reimbursed for purchasing an OS they did not want.
  (emphasis mine).

  Nothing wrong with consumers buying an HP computer with Windows, as long as that's what they want (which will be the case for many -- but not all -- consumers).

It's more like if every major hospital in the country forced children born there to be baptized as Roman Cathoic -- and required that the parents pay a tithe to the Roman Catholic Church for the 'privilege'.

Now, yes, you can turn around and have the child declared Baptist, Lutheran, Jewish or Muslim, etc., but you still won't get back the $75 that went to the RC church.... and, for some people, just having the taint of the RC church on their children is almost as bad as being declared pagan. -- and, for some people, explaining to your parents back home why their grandchild's Birth Certificate says Roman Catholic is going to be, uhm, delicate.

Of course you also have the option of having your child born at home, but some people really like the convenience and safety of a large hospital.

[I'm RC, myself, so I can (I hope) get away with this analogy.]

Netboot the PC to prove it doesn't need an OS

[dheltzel]

The argument that an OS must be installed to make the computer useful can be easily refuted. Most PC's (I assume HP's, but can't confirm) will search for a boot server if their is no OS installed. This is handy for business use, but could also be exploited by home users if the cable/DSL routers had an OS they could download to a new OS-less PC. A router engineer could easily add a small Linux install like Puppy or DSL to their home router and then people could buy a bare PC (no HD required) and plug it in, it could boot the minimal Linux image from the router and become an "internet appliance". It'd be really cool to store all the changes and new files to a USB key so you could take it to another "appliance" and run it there as well.

Re:Then which brand?

[skahshah]

There wouldn't be any need for a government intervention if there wasn't so much arm-twisting from Microsoft, and from the OEMs. And it's not a question of creating a market for "very few people". Some people, very few if you want, don't need Windows on their computers, for example someone who already has a Windows licence for another computer that doesn't work anymore, a licence the EULA, mind you, allows them to transfer to another machine. How is it that it is impossible to buy another computer without Windows ? How is it that, when some guy succeeed in having a refund on a computer (something said to be possible, and the way to go) because he doesn't want Windows, it makes the titles everywhere on the planet ? If there are few people who wants a computer without OS, why not just sell them one, with a little rebate (just change the HD in a "normal" computer). The choice is between making all your clients happy by offering very few of them a rebate on a computer without OS, and making only most of your clients happy, and be sued by some of them (very few). Don't tell me they are afraid of losing too much money if they do it : if they lose too much money, then there is a market. And answering to other comments here, that French guy (who incidentally isn't France, a useful precision as some of you just jump from "one French guy" to "France") could easily win his case : all he has to prove is that the computer can work with another system, or just with another copy of Windows (that you may transfer from one computer to another).