Bill Gates Speaks Out Against Immigration Policies 722
Jeian writes "None other than Bill Gates has spoken out against tighter immigration policies in the US. According to Gates, the US is losing skilled immigrants to other countries that are easier to immigrate to. Among his comments: "I personally witness the ill effects of these policies on an almost daily basis at Microsoft.""
Can't compete with Google (Score:5, Interesting)
The mantle of "hire the best, no matter the cost" has been assumed by Google. The good ones from MS all burned out long ago, and they aren't going back. The rest of the best in this country would cost MS too much to hire, or won't take any offer because they find MS to be unsavory.
Gates has to look overseas -- it's the only place he has left.
here we have it (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Gates may be right (Score:1, Interesting)
We are all Immigrants. (Score:2, Interesting)
I'd be willing to bet pretty much everyone posting in this thread is the descendent of no more than 3-4 generations of immigrants on both sides of their families at most.
I like the whining people do about immigrants all the time, it really isnt new, look at newspapers in the 1840's/1860's/1880's/1900's etc and you'll see the same things that are in the news now about such things. the United States is a nation of immigrants.
Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (Score:5, Interesting)
It wasn't a depression - it was a correction. The bubble burst on a million stupid overpriced and underdeveloped "products" created by "developers" who got $50K out of highschool because they knew how to spell "HTML". Frankly, I was happy to see them go back to whatever it was they were doing before.
Further, the "depression" wasn't specific to IT, nor was the IT industry the only one affected. You make it sound like you and your friends were the only ones who got shafted in 2001. And it ended in 2005? Give me a break, in most large to mid-sized markets the bloodletting was over by late 2002 to early 2003.
I'm sure you'll be gettin lots of karma tonight since the mods seem to like your "fuck Bill Gates" stance and seem to be modding down anyone who questions your wisdom. I do however wonder why no one on Slashdot finds some time to question the immigration policies of companies like IBM, who layoff thousands of American developers, sysadmins, project managers and analysts and then hire [wikipedia.org] hundreds of thousands of Indians and chinese to come work in the US for wages that are significantly less than the ones dictated by H1-B rules. In some cases they even hire back their old employees through consulting body shops at two thirds the cost (without any benefits whatsoever and lower salary).
At least Microsoft doesn't screw immigrants like IBM and other companies do. But IBM is the darling of the open source crowd, so mum's the word. I don't expect to see many articles around here detailing that sort of thing.
In the meantime though, it's always fun to bash Microsoft while ignoring the real problems. Take a gander at that Wikipedia article, let go of your "the corporation exists to serve me" philosphy for a second and think about what hurts this country more.
Re:Gates may be right (Score:2, Interesting)
As an example, the protectionism endemic in the auto industry in the 1980s and 1990s is currently biting them in the ass, hard. Unions prevented plant upgrades at domestic manufacturers, but at the same time, agreed to work in modern plants owned by foreign brands, and all of the sudden the foreign plants were a lot more profitable to run(the "we'll pay that later" accounting surrounding pensions is a huge, separate issue, that Unions would have done better preventing had they asked for the money upfront, instead of promises, which when made by mere mortals are worth the words they are said with).
Re:Cheap labor vs Skilled labor (Score:5, Interesting)
When you class an immigrant worker as different, he or she loses all legal protections and is forced to work under whatever conditions his employer dictates. Apu doesn't make 100k a year(unless he's exceptionally lucky), he makes 50k because if he complains about it he goes back to Bangalore. He doesn't fight for a shorter work week or better conditions, because if he complains he goes back to Bangalore. Joe Seispack has the same problem. He works under whatever conditions his employer sets for him or he goes back home.
This is great for employers because they get cheap labor, it's great for politicians because these companies have more profits and can donate more to their campaigns, plus they get to blame economic hardship on immigrants instead of their own &#$% ups.
It sucks for the government(as opposed to politicians) because there is less tax revenue, and it definitely sucks for you because it means that you can't compete. You can't even offer to work for whatever Apu is getting because the company doesn't believe(quite rightly probably) that you'd be willing to work for peanunts for 6 years, and wont' hire you.
Personally I reckon just open up the damned borders, it's not like the government really provides many services anyway, and without the threat of deportation over their heads the immigrants would probably want to work for the same wages as you or I, and with the same conditions as you or I. Apu might not be willing to work 80 hours a week for half of the industry standard just so he can stay in the US long enough to maybe, just maybe get his citizenship, and we'd go back to employing people based on their qualificiations.
Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (Score:2, Interesting)
the US is losing skilled immigrants to other countries that are easier to immigrate to
Anyone who talks like that as a businessman should be treated with utmost distrust. I don't care if Bill Gates leads his company and markets his products in a way which maximizes profit, but he shouldn't pretend to be looking out for America when he's really after cheap labor.
Re:There's lots of evidence on this (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (Score:5, Interesting)
No, that's not quite right. A corporation exists to limit liability, specifically the liability of its owners for the deeds, misdeeds, or misadventures of the corporation. There are plenty of enterprises that exist to make money that are not corporations. And indeed, there are corporations that exist not to make money (e.g. non-profits).
This, in itself, isn't really a bad thing.
Well, yes it is. Oh, the making money part isn't inherently bad, it's the limitation on liability. Does funny things to the wiring in the brains of the board members and/or officers of the company. Because of this limitation on liability, the stockholders don't have much incentive to care how the company behaves, so long as it's profitable; worst case, they're out their investment, not facing personal impovrishment or jail time. Indeed, in most cases the real stockholders don't even know what they own, it's all indirect via investment funds, 401(k)s, and the like.
I'm not offering any easy solutions, I'm not sure there are any easy ones. But it's worth thinking about. Personal responsibility -- pay attention to what your 401(k) funds are doing, and vote whatever shares you personally own -- is a big part.
Re: Apu wants to be in Bangalore now a days (Score:5, Interesting)
The USdollar is worth 45 Rs +-2 Rs on the exchange rate. But IMF and others have calculated that on the Purchase Power Parity basis, just 10 Rs buys in India what a dollar buys in USA. Adjusted for this, and the cheap labour for other services, and the inherant aversion for the Indian middle class to do blue collar work, leave alone menial labour, US has lost its attraction. You can raise back the H1B quota back to 120,000 from the present 65,000 like it was till 2000. But unless Mr Gates offers domestic servants, he is not going to get that many applicants from India.
[*FN1] If you are married when you file the dependants form, both get green card at the same time. If you get married after green card, spouse waits for as long as 7 years to get one.
Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (Score:5, Interesting)
The real reason is that any older than that, and the engineers have enough real world experience to see what utter crap Microsoft's development practices really are, and not put up with them. MSFT needs to get them early so they can be properly indoctrinated. That they're also cheaper and willing to work longer hours (no family to spend time with) is bonus.
There's a reason that the address of Microsoft HQ is "One Microsoft Way", and not "street" or "boulevard" or such.
Re:Cheap labor vs Skilled labor (Score:4, Interesting)
It changes nothing legally.
"Legally", alas, rarely has much to do with it.
Re:Specific job requirements (Score:4, Interesting)
One good silver lining in this whole issue is that India is a democracy. It cant keep its currency low like China or cap the pay and extract blood from its workers. Indian infotech worker salaries are sky rocketing, considering the productivity, other costs and exchange rate, India will soon stop being such a great source of cheap intellectual labour. Even if we raise the H1B quota back to 120,000 like it used to be till 2000, we will not be getting top talent from India. Now a days it is very difficult to persuade IIT/IIM grads to settle in USA. My classmate is so furious with the insulting treatment by our (I was an Indian now I am an American to clarify the us/them for you) cosulate in Chennai, India when he applied for a two week tourist visa, he said he would never set his foot again in USA. We might get 120K applicants from India, they will be of such poor quality companies will quickly sour on them.
He's right in one respect (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's make an analogy between Harvard U. and the United States.
Harvard is extremely selective about who is admitted. As a result it has a stellar reputation. Imagine how quickly Harvard would go downhill if it started admitting high-school dropouts.
Similarly, because so many people want to emigrate to the U.S., it could be extremely selective about who it admits. For example, it could require immigrants to have a master's degree.
Instead, the U.S. isn't picky at all about who it lets in. Anyone with a pair of legs can walk across the border. The U.S. imports poverty, when it could instead import success and wealth. As a result, the social safety net has been strained beyond the breaking point in some places: more than 70 California emergency rooms have closed. And the number of Americans killed by illegal immigrants is far higher [worldnetdaily.com] than the number of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Imagine how much schools, hospitals, and crime statistics would improve, and property values go up, if the U.S. were selective about immigrants.
Re:Right to criticise, but wrong basis (Score:3, Interesting)
the main argument is that it ( immigration policy ) is unethical.
What's unethical about only allowing people into the country that we think will benefit us as a whole?
Of course Gates, Dubya, and the rest of the establishment is fine to let them rot on the borders ( or be shot by redneck, self-appointed border police )
You'll find that that's frequently a matter of shooting back. It's not just day laborers sneaking across the border.
Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (Score:3, Interesting)
And I, too, lack any sort of real solution. As I said before, if we crack down too hard on these companies, as much as they deserve it, they'd just go someplace more lax in their laws. I mean, for Christ sakes, they don't even have to leave the U.S. You can set up sweat shops in US territories for all the benefits of near-slave labor but still be able to put a "Made in the U.S." sticker on it.
Re:Shortage myth (Score:3, Interesting)
One of my jobs was to babysit her and feed her small jobs that she was capable of doing, explaining things in small words and essentially giving her step-by-step checklists. Mercifully, she was let go after over a year, during which none of her skills had improved appreciably.
So yes, even in good schools some students sneak through. I'm convinced that she got people to help her pass the courses, because I can't see how she could have made it past first year otherwise.
Re: Apu wants to be in Bangalore now a days (Score:3, Interesting)
Exactly. I am an American that grew up outside the U.S. (South America) and so I have seen how the moderately wealthy live in third world countries. And you are exactly right. If you can get a "good" job in a third world country you are far better off to stay there than to come to the United States. Quite frankly, that's unfortunate for the United States.
Part of the reason that the United States is as powerful as it has become is that we have skimmed the best and brightest from every nation for generations. People are people the world over, and most foreigners have the added advantage of being truly driven. They know that if they don't make the grade, don't get into the right school, and don't get that nice job that they are well and truly screwed and they and their children are likely to spend forever cleaning other people's houses. Most Americans don't have that kind of drive. America "needs" these people.
Besides, I can compete with Appu and his brother if they live down the street and have a mortgage. Competing with Appu's cousins Bangalore is an entirely different prospect.
Re:I made billions- but you'll be replaced (Score:1, Interesting)
No education measures or protectionism will help fix the experience problem. Talent is global and so is the IT industry. Put the flag back on the pole and don't wrap yourself into it. Case closed.
Re:Cheap labor vs Skilled labor (Score:2, Interesting)
There are few *tiny* flaws in your thinking.
One, "fear-mongering conservatives [sic]" rarely talk about the cost of "immigrants". The talk about the cost of illegal aliens. There is the economic cost, which can be quantified, and the social cost and is hard to define, but like porn, a lot of people know it when they see it.
So where does the economic cost of illegal aliens come from? Well, the obvious costs are incarceration costs. The US has approximately 2,000,000 people behind bars, and 1/3rd of them are illegal aliens. The average annual cost is $22650 [usdoj.gov] per prisoner, which means we are spending over $1.5 billion per year on simply locking up illegal aliens for committing a pretty diverse set of crimes. Approximately 30-40% of illegal aliens are on some form of public assistance. Tack in the anchor babies that are considered citizens, but are otherwise economic drains (medical, social, and education expense), and it's clear our little experimentation with an illegal alien invasion (an estimated 4 to 10 million cross the border every year according to the Border Patrol, as referenced in House.gov document [house.gov]) is a net economic drain under the most optimistic models.
So how about the social cost? How many people are murdered by illegal aliens every year? DOJ doesn't really track it, but estimates are around 4,000 people. That's 4,000 people that, almost certainly, would be alive if not for those "undocumented immigrants" that you "liberals" love so much. And those murders are in addition to the rapes, assaults, DWIs (with injuries and fatalities), and property crime that, as a population group, illegal aliens are much more likely to commit than native Americans or legal immigrants. Oh, another social cost never remarked is the wage depression effect of illegal immigration, especially for blue collar jobs, and PARTICULARLY, this impact on other minority communities like African-Americans. But it's not limited to just them, either. Blue collar Americans of every stripe have seen their wages decline across the board, pretty much in-line with the massive increase in illegal immigration. Fast food used to the an entry level job for high school kids. It's now a bastion for illegal aliens. Same thing with lawn care, construction, handy-man work, road-work, meat-packing, brick-laying, etc. Guess what, not everyone gets to be a software engineer or doctor, and a just society would make pains to give it's citizens and legal immigrants the first shot at the jobs that are left, rather than locking them out and giving them instead to illegal aliens. Then there is the whole undermining the country thing. Think those illegal immigrants really care about ideas like constitutional government and the rule of law? Think they have the background and the education? No way Jose, we're busy importing a new, permanent underclass while simultaneously pulling the support out from under our own poor working class.
So who benefits from illegal immigration? Corporations like Walmart, Tyson, Pilgrim's Pride and their stockholders., general contractors who slake off $100,000 profit on a $200,000 home because they hired sub-standard illegal labor. It isn't the average consumer. It isn't the average American. The argument that we get lower priced oranges or chicken is a dubious one at best, and I've never seen anyone crunc
Re: Apu wants to be in Bangalore now a days (Score:1, Interesting)
I got myself a masters degree in Robotics from one of the top CS schools in the US. I was on a J-1 visa though and I had to return to my home country for two years. Once I came back I joined one of the largest Software Services Outsourcing companies here.
I want to go back to the US. I want to go back because cutting edge Robotics work happens there. I can and want to be part of shaping things to come. Here I just churn pages and pages of code (not even Robotics related). But American Immigration policy means that I can only go back as Apu PackofSix working for a H1 hiring firm paying me peanuts and requiring me to churn more code for years before I can "earn" my Independence and work on what I want to without restriction.
However, in the current company, I come across hundreds of individuals who are no longer enamored by going off the live in the "Land of opportunities". They'd rather work for this company and visit the US and Europe on short term assignments on what are called "On-Site Opportunities", earn extra cash in Dollars/Euros come back here and spend in Rupees and live like kings. The motivations are myriad and varied:
* Family
* Friends
* Better Standard of Living (paid servants for cheap)
* Higher Social status on account of being in the High earning bracket
* Food, Festivals, Culture
* A sense of belonging!
In the last couple of years, I have also come across quite a few individuals who had gone off to live in the US back in the late 90s, now coming back. Some of them are already American Citizens, but they choose to come back! Go Figure.
Export Control of IP hurts US businesses more (Score:3, Interesting)
What does suck are the export controls imposed by the EAR (Dept. of Commerce) and ITAR (Dept. of Defense). It pretty much means that any transfer of engineering technical data / discussion must be approved. For US companies, they basically need to employ a full time "Export Compliance Officer" that serves as a proxy to either ensure all technical communication (which now needs to be done in paper) is utterly devoid of "sensitive" technical information, or that we apply for a specific license from the DOC and/or DOD to talk or send source code on things like encryption algorithms (which are showing up EVERYWHERE now that proper security and authentication are important).
Basically, we've had to pigeonhole all of our foreign workers (even H1Bs, permanent residents and US citizens are typically all right) into their own office spaces and file and network servers locked off from everyone else. If the project they're working on contains "sensitive data", they're pretty much only allowed to contribute code to it, but can't even really access the repository with their own code.
So anyway, if you're working developing on anything interesting, such as high performance computing or improving encryption devices or better phased-array antennas or vehicle guidance systems, AND you want to take advantage of the best
The way I see it, the effect of EAR and ITAR will be to provide job security for American engineers and scientists in the short run, but in the long run our engineering/scientific capability will either flounder here all on its own, or move entirely outside our borders where they can more easily collaborate in the global intellectual community (very much the opposite of the US technological superiority that the EAR and ITAR try to preserve).
So really, it's us American workers who should be worried about our government's policy screwing us over, not the H1B workers.
Re: Apu wants to be in Bangalore now a days (Score:3, Interesting)
I have not seen any more hard working people than Indians (or other people from the middle east). They are very stubborn and they would work 12 or 13 hours a day (if not more) for more than 30 years in order to get some money. I am not Indian, I am Mexican. And I have a cousin who married an American and they are living in the USA now. One of the things she told me is that she was impressed how lazy Americans are, she told me some stories about theirs children school and other.
Of course Americans work harder than say, Britons. I live in Britain now and OMG they ARE lazy. I would *love* to work here because they just dont work =o).
But you should also see how Latin Americans break their asses. As with lots of Americans (not everyone of course) you have a view of your country and your government has made you believe it is the best but you cant do better as you have never gone out of your little hole.
Britons have it the other way around, They are always whining about their government and country, but they do not know how good they live as some of them have also never go out.
Re:Right to criticise, but wrong basis (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm actually surprised that you have to ask, even though you are an American. I thought you people were supposed to believe that "All men are born equal under God"
That's got nothing to do with it.
That people who can't immediately contribute to profit making are dirt and don't deserve a fair go?
Basically. If you want to show up in the country and live here, be prepared to demonstrate some useful skill. This ain't a charity.
What, like boogey men? I just don't see the situation you're describing.
Gang members and criminals, or haven't you been paying attention?
I see a bunch of selfish, paranoid Yanks, treating the rest of the world like shit.
So now exercising border control is treating the world like shit. Bite me.