MythTV Vs. TiVo, Round 2

Egadfly writes with a comparison of the open source MythTV and the highly commercial TiVo Series 3. "How different are the two systems' available remote control devices and their graphic interfaces when it comes to ease of use? Which product should you choose if your HD signal comes OTA or if you plan to use CableCARDs? And what software features (present and future) can you expect with each product? Will loopholes in FCC regulations and cable company encryption ultimately squeeze out MythTV and other open source players?"

Re:Completely Off Topic

[SenFo]

That's why I skip ahead to the printer friendly version. http://www.dvrplayground.com/article/14501/MythTV- and-TiVo-Series-3-Comparison/;jsessionid=04B2D16BA B650A56F53AAC0E4C43607C [dvrplayground.com]

Re:TiVo wins of course...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

You know that part about not being as hard as you make it out to be? You should have paid attention to that. Get knoppmyth [mysettopbox.tv] burn to CD, boot from it and you are off and running. That pretty much works out of the box for ~80% of the people who try it.

Re:Completely Off Topic

[TheThiefMaster]

I thought he was kidding about how short the pages were until I looked. The intro page is short, and the summary is even shorter, yet they get a page each with no pictures. In fact only pages 2,3 and 5 have a reasonable amount on them, with the other 4 pages being only around two short paragraphs long each.

Add to that the fact that the summary doesn't really rule one way or the other...

Also your link doesn't work.

Re:TiVo wins of course...

[frogstar_robot]

Invariably when KnoppMyth is mentioned, several sombodies will complain it is out of date. Valid enough but pointing my newly installed machine at Debian Testing and apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade took care of that.

Re:CableCARD is all that matters

[Anonymous Coward]

CableCARD is basically a system that allows any equipment, not just provider-supplied decoders, to recieve and decrypt encrypted digital TV (typically from digital cable). It's similar to the CAMs that have been part of the DVB standard since the beginning, with the exception that CAMs were intended to be an open specification, and are supported well by Linux.

CableCARD is intentionally proprietary, and will likely never be supported by Linux without someone being sued for DMCA violation, despite still needing a valid subscription to receive encrypted content.

Europeans have no such problem, of course. One can easily build a MythTV system using a dual-tuner DVB card, then plug the CAM into the card, insert the provider's smartcard into the CAM, and away you go. Such devices are actually far better supported under Linux than Windows.

Re:CableCARD is all that matters

[jotok]

My Myth setup simply uses an IR blaster to interact with the set-top box. It does precisely everything the latest HD TiVo does.

Just a suggestion, maybe you should know what you're talking about before you dismiss Myth as "irrelevant."

Re:CableCARD is all that matters

[Professor_UNIX]

A set-top DVR is the only choice for a more-than-minimally-functional system.

How do you define a minimally-functional system? Every single thing I've wanted to watch over the past 3 or 4 years has been available via the analog cable tuner so my Hauppauge PVR 250 cards capture it just fine. If I really wanted to watch pay channels (though I don't subscribe to any) then I could just plug my cable box into the SVIDEO input on my card and use an IR blaster to change the channels as necessary like a TiVo does. In the end, I've found all I really watch is primarily network television that I could pick up with a pair of rabbit ears if I wanted to. I'll occasionally watch USA or TNT or something, but for the most part, everything I ever watch is available over my analog cable service.

As a MythTV user...

[edmicman]

of going on 2 years, I'd have to say it's not even close - Tivo wins for the masses. Sure, my MythTV box does what my friends' Tivos do and more. But even though they are tech guys, too, I don't see many of them going through the pain in the ass experience that is setting up and maintaining the MythTV box.

I built my MythTV box a couple of years ago so I could record two shows at the same time (dual tuner PVR500 card) and then watch a third on our main cable. I planned on reusing olds parts as I had a fairly decent PC sitting around unused; all I needed to invest in was the tuner card and a remote. I got the MCE remote and a PVR500 for the job. All was fine and dandy until I found out that some obscure library for MythTV didn't work on my Athlon VIA motherboard chipset. A new motherboard meant new memory, and a new CPU. I also got a "HTPC" case so the thing didn't look ugly in the living room. So right off the bat my quest to do a homemade Tivo on the cheap without monthly fees set me back about $600 after throwing in a large hard drive, too. This didn't really bother me, though, as I figured it was part of doing business.

I used Knoppmyth to set things up, and granted, it did go fairly smooth. The basic install goes along fine, it's the customization and other tweaks that take time and effort. I currently have it recording up to two shows at once, use it as a multimedia center so I can copy videos and MP3s to it and use it as a jukebox, and have used it to play emulated NES, SNES, and MAME games. But here are some things that I've noticed while using MythTV, in no particular order:

I started off with a Ti4600 video card. It's fan started to die, so I spent money on an FX5200 card which I've read is recommended for MythTV. This went fine, and configured fine. But for some reason if I need to reset my MythTV box, the video settings revert back to a "generic" video card, and I have to recopy over the FX5200 settings from the Knoppmyth wiki. I have no idea why this is.

Related to the above, when the generic video settings are on, recorded audio and video is out of sync. The video quality is noticeably bad, too. When it's configured correct, things are a lot better.

I've played NES and MAME games on it. I've tried SNES, but can't get my Gravis controllers to work for some reason. Supposedly there's Genesis emulators out there, but I can't figure out how to use those within MythTV. I had issues setting up two controllers for the NES games, and they worked for awhile, but then I had some friends over and we were going to play and the 2nd controller didn't work anymore. I don't know why. Also, with the games, integrating the remote is supposed to be possible, but I don't know how to do it for my remote. It would be nice to be able to map certain keys to the remote to do emulator actions or to hit escape. Otherwise, I have to have a keyboard and mouse available when I'm using the emulators (currently via VNC). I don't have a wireless mouse/keyboard for the HTPC yet.

After about a year, things started locking up, recordings were out of sync. Turns out MySQL defaults to logging every database action, and the database logs filled up my hard drive, killing MythTV. There was a fix in the forums, but it was a pain.

I can only record basic cable. It can do digital, but it would have to hook up to my digital box and use IR forwarding to control the box. That would sort of defeat the purpose of being able to record a show and watch something else at the same time. Not to mention the whole reason I got it was so I could record *two* shows at the same time. I'd either need another digital box dedicated to the MythTV box, or some sort of CableCARD thing.

Perhaps the coolest thing about MythTV is the commercial skip. After it records a show, it marks commercials, and pressing a certain button while watching them jumps to the next segment of the show. I've found this to be accurate about 50% of the time. Usually, it works for the first commercial break,

GB-PVR

[rowle1jt]

Anyone ever check out GB-PVR?

I run it home on top of XP Pro SP2, I only have the software installed thats needed for the PVR function, no Office or anything like that. Makes the machine very stable! Multiple tuner support, web based programming.. its got all the bells and whistles of Myth. The nice part is, EVERYTHING that needs to be done on the PVR side of things can be done from the remote! There is a very active forum/developer community and sub, the owner/programmer is on there posting and helping people daily.

http://www.gbpvr.com/ [gbpvr.com]

http://www.gbpvr.com/pmwiki/ [gbpvr.com]

http://forums.gbpvr.com/ [gbpvr.com]

Re:CableCARD is all that matters

[pyite]

Comcast scrambles all HD content and disables the firewire connector on the back of the set top boxes around here.

While it's expected that some content is encrypted, by law, they must enable the Firewire connector. So, you can get it enabled. It will only help for unencrypted content, but it's still useful.

"...To accommodate these interfaces, effective April 1, 2004, upon consumer request, MSOs must provide functional 1394 outputs to HD STBs, either by downloading the necessary software to STBs with existing 1394 ports, or by replacing a deployed HD STB for one which includes 1394. These leased HD STBs must be controllable by a TV or other device equipped with a 1394 port for the tune function, mute function, restore volume function, power on, power off, and status inquiry. (Under the MOU, the STB will be provided at no additional cost to the customer, but MSOs may charge, as appropriate, for delivery and installation of the new STB.)..."

I'm not sure of the original source of that, but there ya go.

Re:As a MythTV user...

[airjrdn]

Excellent info, thanks for posting it. From time to time I contemplate setting up a MythTV box, but end up not doing it for one reason or another. I'm currently on DirecTv running two hacked Tivos. For general media player functionality I use a modded XBox which I've found nothing can compete with. If you've never seen XBox Media Center, check it out, it's really slick, and plays pretty much every format out there.

Re:TiVo wins of course...

[stang]

To be fair, I've never used a Tivo

Lemme help, then.

won't allow you to short your shows by TV show

Tivo does. Sort by show or date/time recorded. Also groups related shows together into a folder (e.g., "Doctor Who - 5 episodes"). Series 3 also puts all HD shows in another folder.

I also have a 400 GB RAID for storage

Tivo doesn't offer RAID. It's pretty easy to stick a second (or replace your original with a larger) drive. Series 2 (non-HD) does allow transfers back and forth from your computer, so you can store 'em on your own RAID, tape backup, DVD-ROM, or what have you. Series 3 doesn't have this; it appears to be a legal issue getting worked out with Cable Labs. You'll probably see the same thing on any new device with a CableCard in it.

MythTV also has a nice web interface

Tivo's got one, too.

My MythTV box has been up for a solid month without any problems

My Tivo's uptime is measured in months/years. It reboots itself when new updates are available. It does this at 2:00 AM and hasn't missed a show yet. In the 7 years that I've had a Tivo (Series 1/2/3), I've forced a reboot *once*.

Tivo is an incredibly easy to use, rock solid (hey, it's running Linux) unit. Look, if you're happy tinkering with the thing, more power to ya. As for me, I turn the TV on when I'm done working, the kids are in bed, and I'm looking to unwind. I've got enough between work and my own side projects--I don't need to be messing with the TV, too.

One other point (and you may have had a solid Myth system for long enough to see this): When you get a device like a Tivo that is stable, simple to use, and works every time, things change. It becomes a new tool that transforms how you do things. I can't imagine watching TV without Tivo--it's that different (and that much better) than plain-old service. I skip commercials (but fast-forward through them so I can catch new show announcements or the occasional ad that is amusing the first time you see it). I watch shows on "Tivo time," skipping through the boring parts. I fast forward to the end of the remodeling show so I can see the results without all the witty banter. I check out old shows I haven't seen in years because Tivo had space and nothing better to do than record it. I don't worry about when seasonal shows are on (like the Peanuts ones)--Tivo catches them for me.

If you like watching TV, and you don't have this kind of experience, you should get a Tivo.

Re:GB-PVR

[io-waiter]

They have been bought by welltonway wich is a led by less than trustworthy people.

So expect the worst.

Wellton way went chapter 11 and is now reconstructed and is trying to rake in cash in doubtful ways, consumer authorities in Sweden have issued warnings. Welltons earlier companies include Lappower which went down, bad.
My guess is that they will destroy GB PVR =(

MythTV can handle HDTV/encrypted content in Europe

[vanDrunen]

This comparison would be completely different in Europe! In europe nearly every digital TV channel broadcasted over Cable, OTA or Sattelite is encrypted with one of many encryption standards (Conax, Irdeto, SECA, etc.).

Instead of a "CableCARD", which is used for viewing encrypted content in the US, a "Conditional Access Module" (CAM) is used in Europe, Africa and most Asian countries for all digital broadcast methods (DVB-C, -S and -T). Most TV companies supply set-top boxes with a built-in decoder and a smart-card, but the smart-card can also be used in other receivers or in a PC when you have the right CAM.
There are a lot of TV cards that can use CAM's and are very well supported by MythTV, for instance: http://http//knc1.com/gb.htm/ [http].
Receiving HDTV or Encrypted content with MythTV is no problem in Europe at least.

The TiVo doesn't seem to exist in Europe, so I wouldn't be able to compare it to TiVo myself, since I never saw one. A very popular digital TV receiver / DVR in Europe is the Dreambox: http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/ [dream-multimedia-tv.de].
The Dreambox is an open platform, is linux-powered and doesn't have any "problems" with DRM or whatsoever. The only limitation the Dreambox and other set-top boxes have is a lack of raw computing power and that's why I prefer to have all my home entertainment on a HTPC.
And that's where the Windows (MCE) vs. Linux discussion comes back!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Myth Wins of course

[WhiteDragon]

sleep $(echo "$3 * 60" | bc)

sleep $(($3*60))? I am not nitpicking, it's just that you might want to know. (Or does your version do something extra?)

sleep ${3}m

Re:TiVo wins of course...

[JabberWokky]

Or simply buy a working MythTV box from a retailer... you can plunk down the money (less than what it costs for a Series 3 HDTV TiVo box) and get a working MythTV unit designed for an entertainment center. After all, TiVo is just a linux box put together by a company, you can get the same thing from other companies that happens to be based on MythTV.

See this company [tvease.net], for example. Most are like that one, fairly low volume, willing to customize your system lightly, but not so much it messes with their support.

--
Evan

Re:TiVo wins of course...

[lazarusdishwasher]

Dell E521n with Athlon 64 3200+? $481 USD, before I add the two Hauppauge 150s, and plug in a 500GB USB drive...? According to this guy, it's not 100% effortless... But it sounds like it can be made to work. PLEASE, Slashdot, impress me by pointing me at the cheapest-possible off-the-shelf that will Just Work!

As long as you are going to add in two pci cards after you buy the computer would you be willing to use a barebones kit from newegg?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82 E16856167012 [newegg.com] $179.99
MSI Axis 700 Lite Via 1GHz C7 CPU onboard VIA CN700 1 x 240Pin VIA UniChrome Pro 3D Graphic Barebone - Retail

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82 E16820231040 [newegg.com] $33.99
512MB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 533

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82 E16815116628 [newegg.com] $139.99
WinTV-PVR 500 MCE (dual tuner card since there is only 1 pci slot)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82 E16822152052 [newegg.com] $134.99
SAMSUNG SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD501LJ 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

http://www.imedialinux.com/imedia_mythtv [imedialinux.com] $19
It lists a price but I was able to download an iso, but it is optimised for the hardware decoding found on the cn700.


Total $508.23 if shipped to my house, and I could go the local computer store and get a remote and optical drive for another 70

Practical experience with MythTV

[jlrowe]

In late December, I set up a unused PC (600 MHZ) with 2 Haupauge PVR 150 TV cards and a 200 GB hard disk as a MythTV Frontend/Backend. The cards are Standard def. The setup was straightforwards and pretty easy. I did have some issues with jerkiness due to the video card in the machine, but got it to work well enough by changing some settings etc.

After And I set up the server, I then got an even older 450 MHZ PC with barely enough RAM, and made a front end out of it. Again, that didn't work well, but a cheap Nvidia card took care of that AND gave me Svideo out so I could run a monitor and a TV as a second monitor (dual screen) at the same time. I then forced MythTV to run on the TV and got TV plus internet. It was only jerky if I did too much internet or whatever on the PC while watching TV. You do have to watch what window has focus, if you want to do some control to MythTV, but you get used to alt-tab etc.

Because that worked so very well, at only the cost of 2 cards, I replaced the front end machine with a new 3200+ AMD socket 754 MB and chip at a little over $100. I had the case and everything else already. I also just took the 450 MHZ frontend and put it in another room, still on the MythTV network.

The new AMD system is a dream. I run TV, internet, Openofffice.org, VNC to other machines, XP in a VMWare session, and much more. And performance is never a problem.

MythTV is OTA, and there are plenty of stations, ABC NBC CBS PBS etc all have mutiple channels each. Fox goes HD next year, but I can record all of these SDTV using power search (record a show anytime it finds it by name, don't record dups and reruns, and skip commericals.

nice.

Still running on the 600 MHZ backend, but I am planning to upscale to a higher end AMD and plenty of RAM and 1.5 TB of Hard disk. This will be my main server for whatever purpose, including VMWare etc. Oh, and 4 or 5 HDTV cards, plus the SDTV cards while there is still SDTV.

Really, this is the coolest thing for OTA TV.

Distribution used: MythDora http://g-ding.tv/ [g-ding.tv], which is Fedora Core 5 and MythTV plus add-ons and on one install DVD. Also nice. FC6 would have been better, but this will do fine.