MySpace is Free Speech, Case Overturned

eldavojohn writes "The Indiana Court of Appeals has ruled that a judge violated the constitution after placing a juvenile on probation for an expletive laden MySpace entry on the principal. The court decided that the juvenile's free speech rights had been unconstitutionally revoked, and the original judge had suppressed politically motivated free speech since the comments were directly attacking school policy. I think we are starting to see a fine line develop online as it did with print — bullying & slander are punishable while we have to allow criticism of ideas no matter how harsh it is."

Glad it was overturned, but...

[AaxelB]

It's too bad there's no fair way to clearly define that thin grey line, and it has to be taken on a case-by-case basis (Unless there's some method I'm missing).

The inefficiency of real justice is aggravating.

Good!

[mstahl]

I still remember what it was like to be a teenager, and one of the most frustrating things about it is the feeling of being disenfranchised. I don't think personal attacks and bullying are okay, and I recognize that the Internet is being used more and more frequently for this type of activity, but teenagers still need to feel like they have a voice.

A small dose of optimism.

[PixieDust]

It's refreshing to see this occasionally happen. My teens aren't that far behind me, and I've gone rounds with various entities about similar things. It's nice to see things like this happen where it's recognized that damnit, in this country, we're SUPPOSED to be able to speak our minds.

The original case accused the girl in question of identity theft, because the page she posted on was supposed to be the Principal's page (it was created by someone else entirely). When all that was said and done, they had to save face somehow, and so prosecuted the person and declared her delinquent for being "obscene". Counter damages perhaps? I would sooooooooo go after them for that.

The rant was also not about the principal, but rather about school policy regarding body piercings. Oh how many times I was suspended for criticizing school policy, and faculty for stupidity. Although in some cases, motivating the student body to protest can be helpful. My high school once told us we couldn't bring our purses to school. 2 days of every girl in the school using tampons for hair rollers fixed that one. On the other hand, those of us who organized that, were suspended for a week for insubordination.

I love seeing cases like this stick it to the man. It's sad that the Constitution so often (aside from being trampled daily) doesn't seem to apply to anyone under the age of 18. With the advent of the internet, however, and online social societies of their own, teens seem to be able to fight for a few more rights, and correct a few more injustices than they were able to even just 10 years ago. That's a great thought. Bolstered by victories now, perhaps the next generation will be less inclined to just roll over while their rights are trampled on than the current generation.

Time will tell.

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[SgtPepperKSU]

Who says they don't work and pay taxes? You may have been able to get by without working, but not everybody is so lucky.

Re:who gives a shit

[voice_of_all_reason]

Civics. You fail it.

Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inalienable_rights [wikipedia.org]. If you do not agree to one of the founding ideas of our country, you are welcome to the door.

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[meabolex]

While I believe the terminology of "second-class" citizen is probably not the best terminology, most people in high school are minors. Minors have their own legal status in most places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_(law) [wikipedia.org]

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[ajs]

While it's long been shown that when students are on campus, they surrender a number of their constitutional rights (free speech, search and seizure, right to bear arms, etc.)

... uh, no. You don't surrender your right to bear arms in school. You surrender your right to bear arms by being a minor. Most states don't allow minors to get FIDs, and the Supreme Court has never even commented, as far as I know.

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[colinrichardday]

Income taxes yes, but what about sales tax?

Re:Good

[pintpusher]

I think part of what you are experiencing is the natural progression from the apparent total freedom a child experiences to the much more restrictive life of an adult. All teens go through this. Its part of what drives teens to break away from the home and live an independent adult life.

You may respond "what restrictive adult life" but its true. We adults may appear more free than you (and in many respects we are), but we are burdened with self-imposed restrictions, societally imposed restrictions, burdens of responsibility etc that can strongly curtail that apparent freedom we have.

I recall that I was frustrated by visions of adults having the "Freedom" to drink, drive (not necessarily together), and all sorts of other fun stuff that I couldn't do. But, you know what, now that I'm an adult, I realise that those are largely the only freedoms we have that are worth anything. Free speech be damned, give me a beer and a woman!

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[superbus1929]

Because I'm uncomfortable with getting students comfortable with a system that, by default, orders them to assimilate solely based on how many taxes they pay. It's one thing for a student to want to buy a porno at 15, but to put a school's faculty above reasonable critique is too much. Our country allows us to critique our elected officials because they're elected; I do not want young people to get used to a fascist style of government because it's against our principles, and also because it takes away from the rights of parents to truly determine what is right for their kid.

In a perfect world, the kids parents would have blistered their asses, and this would not be necessary. But in a perfect world, parents wouldn't sue the school system because their kid is a fuck-up, either.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>It's time that they stopped treating us High School students like we're animals, and started respecting our rights. I'm sick of the feeling that I'm a second class citizen, without the rights of adults. The school should have no say on what we do outside of school grounds. "The land of the free [unless you're a kid]"

Ignore my next statement if you happen to be 18 or older...

By definition "without the rights of adults" makes sense when you are not an adult.
I applaud the ruling, and agree with the concept of maintaining essential rights for kids in school. But to the point, and to one of a previous post.... I do not think the constitution ever intendeded to grant the same rights to minors as adults. Minors can also not vote, drink, or run for public office. These rights are conferred upon adulthood, as defined by 18 years of age. Other rights - freedom of press/expression/religion/bear arms are granted on a limited basis outside of school by the authority of parents/guardians.

soapbox

So PARENTS - get involved in your kids' schools! The administration will continue to implement stupid things and introduce curriculum you disagree with unless you are involved! If you are already involved GREAT - otherwise, either get off your duff or stop whining about how your kids are being treated. AND get involved in your kids lives/activities! Not to be invasive, or uber-chaperone, and not to be their best friend, but to help them get through one of the most confusing periods of life with some sense that somebody cares what they do, who they are, and how they turn out!

/soapbox

Childrens rights...

[bbambrey]

I have long been an advocate of children's/teens rights. They have thoughts, ideas and opinions like adults and have as much, if not more, to gain or lose from the decisions made. In regards to the US:

-We have and do prosecute children/teens as adults.
-Spend social security.
-Go to war.
-Enact laws on education. (including college funding and rules).
-Many states allow driving at 16.
-Some states consider 17 to be a legal adult.

The decisions we make can have very big impacts and yet we give no voice to children/teens? Why??? What could we do??

-Lower the voting age.
-Create children/teen lobbyist or activist groups.

I have yet to hear a good argument why we can't make these things happen. Why young adults/children/teens can't have more of a say.

If we can prosecute a teen as an adult then they should have a voice on how the laws impact their lives.

I welcome ideas...

/random thoughts.... and probably unorganized
//should probably get back to work
///did not proofread :)

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[BlueTrin]

Here you go, you will start with teens, then you could also consider black and hispanics and start arguing about all the differences there are between them and others, continue on old people (come on we even pay taxes for them !!!) and even finish on women (maternity leave ?) ...

I would not rather live in your "ideal" democracy.

Re:No, MySpace is not Free Speech.

[radarjd]

You can use it in keeping with the First Amendment, or you can use it outside of those very real bounds. Saying "MySpace is Free Speech" is like saying "the sounds coming out of your mouth are Free Speech." Well, yeah, unless they're not. As in slander, fraud, incitement, conspiracy, threats, etc.

I think that's exactly what the case said. The Court considered at least one of the girl's postings:
Hey you piece of greencastle shit.
What the fuck do you think of me [now] that you can['t] control me? Huh?
Ha ha ha guess what I'll wear my fucking piercings all day long and to
school and you can['t] do shit about it! Ha ha fucking ha! Stupid bastard!
Oh and kudos to whomever made this ([I'm] pretty sure I know who).
Get a background.
formatting left as in the opinion [in.gov].

The Court found that somewhere in there is a protected expression of displeasure towards the actions of a government actor -- that is, she was mad he banned wearing of jewelry in decorative piercings and expressed her thoughts on the matter.

It's not Shakespeare, but freedom can't only apply to those who speak eloquently.

Re:who gives a shit

[geekoid]

Internet use: You fail it.

You were clearly flamebaited.

From your link:
BTW, if someone disagrees to the principle our diest founding fathers stated, they are welcome to do so. Expressing ones opinion is no reason to show them the door. In fact, it is directly against what you think you are fighting for.

Truly ironic.

doG oN!

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[account_deleted]

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Re:Good!

[jofny]

I dont like that phrasing...I think teenagers need to HAVE a voice. So much in our society right now is geared to making people FEEL LIKE they have a voice/choice while all the awhile guiding them down a preset path along which theyve unknowingly given away their choices and their say.

Re:Good

[Dragonslicer]

Minors can also not vote, drink, or run for public office.

In the United States, most of those aren't even 18. The legal drinking age (I believe in all states) is 21. You have to be 25 to run for the House of Representatives, 30 to run for the Senate, and 35 to run for President. 18 isn't the only somewhat-arbitrary age limit.

Delinquency charges == bullshit

[b0s0z0ku]

Translation: "we can't find an actual crime that would stick in a court of law in front of a competent judge or jury, so we'll charge her for not knowing her place in society (under the stomping feet of her elders)"

Catch-all laws like that annoy me, even if they were originally well meant.

-b.

Re:No, MySpace is not Free Speech.

[UnknowingFool]

MySpeech is a communciations method.

I am thinking that you are relying too much on the title of an article to imply it's meaning. Slashdot titles are limited in characters so submitters have to be as brief as possible. Sometimes being brief changes the meaning but there isn't much choice. You should RTFA. All it is saying is that anything posted or said on MySpace has as much protection as anything said in real life. Of course it includes the same limitations like libel and treason and harassment. The student was arguing her comments on MySpace were protected under the First Amendment guidelines of free speech as they relayed a criticism of her school's public policy on body piercings. She should not be punished criminally for expressing a political view point. The court of appeals agreed with her.

While we have little regard for A.B.'s use of vulgar epithets, we conclude that her overall message constitutes political speech.

This follows many court decisions that although some speech may be distasteful, they are protected. The US Supreme Court ruled in Hustler v. Falwell:

But in the world of debate about public affairs, many things done with motives that are less than admirable are protected by the First Amendment.

Re:who gives a shit

[cHiphead]

The REAL irony is you yourself got superflamebaited! fantastical.

Cheers.

Re:who gives a shit

[libkarl2]

At the rate were going, there won't be any rights left to earn. They'll be gone. Then were all teenagers.

Except when we get in trouble. Then we will be tried as adults, and receive the maximum sentence for our heinous crimes against the ruling elite.

Seriously though, I have seen teenagers arrested, tried, (and punished) as adults for ticky tack offences you couldn't sucessfuly charge an adult for. Underage drinking (and voting) are punishable by law, but killing and dying is okay if you are in a combat zone.

But you are right; teenagers are a drain on society, along with the poor and disenfranchised.

Re:No different from many other scenarios

[Anonymous Coward]

Its like playing chicken with 18-wheelers on the highway with your bicycle. You MIGHT have the right of way, but your carcass is going to get pulped. Same with being an asshole to a judge or court system.

The jails and prisons are full of "lawyers" with stuff like that. Please take some advice (and not theirs) and don't join them.

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[Anonymous Coward]

You have rights. It's just that we feel more comfortable violating them when you're not a citizen. Or at least when you're not wealthy.

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[Anonymous Coward]

While I partially agree with you, I agree more with the next response post. I would add to the laundry list the ability to be drafted in to war.

You are given special exemptions from the law because you're a minor. The crazier rule is the drinking age being 21 in the USA. My thought (which is shared by many) is if your government can force you to pick up a gun and shoot at the enemy, you should be able to drink a beer.

Re:Good

[MorePower]

Adult life restrictive? I don't get how anyone can possibly be nostalgic about teenage life. It is all obligations and no rewards. You have far more responsibilies and obligations as a teen than as an adult. Basically as an adult I have to go to work and pay my bills (and this time of year, my taxes). And my bills actually get paid automatically, I just need to insure that my bank account stays topped off, so really doing my job is my only responsibility.

That would be the job that I can leave anytime I want if I find a job that's more to my liking. The one that I choose because I liked to technical and work/lifestyle aspects of. The one that pays me huge gobs of money because I once threatened to leave and work for the competition.

As a teenager, you have to go to school (under threat of criminal prosecution), do all your homework, do whatever chores your parents randomly assign, go to whatever lame weddings/reunions/family trips/etc. your parents randomly force on you. And for this you get no pay, own no property (except what your parents charitably give you, which they take away randomly) and you have to live with uncofortable relationships with your family that you can't leave or renegotiate in a house of their choosing in a city chosen for thier work/lifestyle ideals.

Screw all that! In the 16+ years since I turned 18, life just gets better and better. I live in a house that I chose, in a location that I chose, maintain what relationships I feel are worthwhile (which includes my parents, its much easier to live with them when I don't have to literally live with them), clean my home when I feel the mess bothers me more than the effort to clean it, own whatever property is valuable enough to me; all paid for by the job I chose under the conditions that I negotiated (and re-negotiated) from a position of strength.

I just don't see anything good about life as a teenager, which was living under constant threat of random punishment for not doing meaningless things you should never have to do in the first place. And getting nothing for it.

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[Workaphobia]

If, with the exception of slavery, we have failed to (or perhaps chosen not to) make such distinctions, what makes you think that this situation deserves an exception? What makes you think that eliminating gray areas in favor of giving everyone and everything either equal rights or no rights at all is desireable?

Do animals deserve the right to vote? Should elementary school students be allowed to get married? Are children property of their parents and should they be allowed to be beaten at will? If you can't answer yes to any of those then it's obvious that not everything/one should have or lack every right.

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[account_deleted]

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Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[iphayd]

In ten years, you will think differently.

You are actually represented. And you are guaranteed the ability to vote after you turn 18*. If you are mature enough to vote, which you may or may not be. (I may or may not be, for that matter, but 18 at least guarantees a percentage is mature enough.) Now imagine if all you classmates, with their celebrity loving subculture, had the same right to vote. Imagine what would happen if Madonna (Paris Hilton is too young) got into the White House.

That's why there is an 18 year waiting limit on voting.

*Offer good in the USA. Offer is dependent on registration. Offer is also dependent on not being a felon.

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[Sj0]

I recall a major point of contention being that women aren't eligible for conscription in the US. Apparently every man at 18 has to fill out his draft card just in case they bring back the draft, but women need not apply.

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine what this means within the context of this discussion.

Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens

[pedrop357]

Now imagine if all you classmates, with their celebrity loving subculture, had the same right to vote. Imagine what would happen if Madonna (Paris Hilton is too young) got into the White House.

Yeah, because we know that ALL teens would vote for a superstar and would have enough votes to override all adult voters.