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Music Media Your Rights Online

Threat To Free, Legal Guitar Tablature Online 223

An anonymous reader writes "Recently Hal Leonard Corporation, the world's largest songbook publisher, sent an email to the music publishing and copyright community urging them not to license guitar tablature for free, advertising-supported use online. The email includes a number of factual errors and was potentially very damaging to the potential for a free, legal, and licensed destination for guitar tab online. Musicnotes and MXTabs have posted the full letter along with their response."
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Threat To Free, Legal Guitar Tablature Online

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  • Make music illegal (Score:5, Interesting)

    by syousef ( 465911 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @10:41PM (#19140477) Journal
    If things keep progressing at this rate, and if they do start enforcing these fucking insane laws, it'll only be a matter of a few years before owning music is undesirable as it would be difficult ot prove any music is legit and could have you thrown into jail at any moment.

    Why not just cut out all the BS and just make any kind of music ownership illegal. Musical instruments could be covered by the DMCA too since they can be used to copy (read play) a tune.

    Oh that's we can't skip the BS right, because rich greed assholes can a make profit for a while this way.

    Owning/buying music is quickly becoming no different morally to owning/buying blood diamonds. Hell, if they make musical instruments illegal perhaps the penalty for owning one could be that they cut off your hands.

    IP law? It's just fucking entertainment. Get a grip!
  • FUD FUD FUD (Score:2, Interesting)

    by EmbeddedJanitor ( 597831 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @10:50PM (#19140557)
    When SCO pulled their FUD moves some while ago, that triggered a rash of FUDding through various industries. Various patent trolls etc woke up and started sniffing about.

    The latest MS vs Linux FUDding is very widely reported in the popular media. Perhaps that's triggering another run of this behavior through various industries.

  • Self defeating? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by adona1 ( 1078711 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @10:51PM (#19140581)
    And I wonder what this will do to the next generation of musicians? Back when I began learning how to play guitar, much of my progress was because of the availability of free tab, which allowed me to play along with CDs. It would be grimly appropriate if the industries pushing this kind of litigation were shooting themselves in the foot when the talent pool in 20 years has shrunk down as a result.
  • by weighn ( 578357 ) <weighn.gmail@com> on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @11:01PM (#19140663) Homepage

    It would be grimly appropriate if the industries pushing this kind of litigation were shooting themselves in the foot when the talent pool in 20 years has shrunk down as a result.
    this is spot on ... isn't their game "maximizing profits"?

    if they tighten the belt too much it stifles learning and enjoyment of music. If you don't enjoy it, you are less likely to buy.

    The conspiracy theorist in me says that they are not this stupid and their end goal is to have some sort of nazification of the Arts. Wanna own/play a guitar kid? You'll need a license. What are you playing? License. Playing in public? Upgrade your license. Singing a protest song? Jail.

  • torrents (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Lehk228 ( 705449 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @11:02PM (#19140671) Journal
    so this means to get tabs i go to piratebay and snatch a massive .RAR or every song i could possibly want to play, right?
  • by madbawa ( 929673 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @11:04PM (#19140689) Journal
    If I have spent my own time trying to figure out the tabs/sheet music of a song, why shouldn't I share it with millions of others who may want that song's tabs?? Just because it takes business away from some other people doesn't mean they can put restrictions on my freedom and willingness to share my effort. Its not as if I have stolen the tabs from someplace where they were being legally sold. Its my time that I've spent. So whats the solution to such a problem? Or does this end up as a stalemate? These people are curbing the free flow of information and knowledge. I myself have learned guitar by looking at countless tabs from OLGA and other sites.
  • Silly (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @11:14PM (#19140775)
    All of OLGA can be zipped into like a 40mb file.

    The music industry can't stop me from downloading a 300mb album.

    The movie studios can't stop me from downloading an 1.4gb XviD.

    The software industry can't stop me from downloading an 8gb ISO.

    Who are these people kidding?
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @11:27PM (#19140875)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by tjr ( 908724 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @11:29PM (#19140893) Homepage
    Hal Leonard claimed that the tabs are inaccurate, made by kids. If the tabs are really inaccurate, then I would think that the users of the tabs wouldn't be happy with them, and this alleged tab black market would disappear.

    The tabs must, on the contrary, be reasonably accurate for Hal Leonard to be noticing any loss of business, which, as TFA explains, they probably aren't.
  • Libel? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Michael Woodhams ( 112247 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @11:44PM (#19140991) Journal
    IANAL.

    It looks to me like MxTabs would have a good chance of winning a libel suit over this (and possibly other stuff like 'interfering with a business relationship' or something.) The letter repeatedly claims they are publishing illegal music, when in fact it is all authorized. Indeed, the letter is trying to convince people not to grant permission to MxTabs, which would be utterly pointless if MxTabs were illegally ignoring permissions. (Other bits might also be libelous, but this is the stand-out obvious one.)

    However, the likelihood of winning in court does not guarantee that there is a good business case for suing.

    Is there a lawyer in the house who might like to comment?
  • by epee1221 ( 873140 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @11:58PM (#19141089)

    Hey, publishers: It's over. You lost. You're not going to get to stop people from talking about how to play music. Quit whining, join the world in the 21st century, and you might yet find a way to profit.
    I don't get what they're so afraid of. Call me old fashioned, but I strongly prefer to work with music printed and bound (not inkjetted and stapled). I will even pay for public-domain scores, especially if they include some nice program notes/commentary. Unfortunately, pretty much all I run across most places I go are tabs of old rock or jazz standards. All they have to realize is that there's not much money to be made telling people what everyone already knows (no, this market segment isn't dead, but you can only use so many fake books).
  • by InsMonkey ( 324276 ) on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @12:11AM (#19141169) Homepage
    In addition to TAB, the ABC [plus.com] format is also being threatened by Hal Leonard Publishing. ABC is probably more of a threat to their revenue stream because it can easily be translated into midi and into sheet music. A lot of traditional musicians use this format and the many ABC readers that are available online. Many prefer this to published books not just because it is free, but because the music is closer to the way the songs are really played.
  • Re:Infuriating (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @12:41AM (#19141367)
    Yes it is infuriating but also FUD.

    I was so infuriated that I actually read the article, and it seems to me that it's just hot air and bad title on Slashdot's part.

    The company (HAL?) basically sent emails and made phone calls to musicians urging them not to use the site, and calling the site basically a music sheets pirating (if such thing existed) site.

    No one is suing anybody, it's just a FUD scam from that company.

    If I was MXTabs I would be on the phone with my lawyers right now for a nice defamatory law suit against that company.
  • Re:Feeling the Pain (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Tatsh ( 893946 ) on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @01:00AM (#19141451)
    Who knows if Dance Dance Revolution will be going after people who imitate their dance steps 10 years from now.

    Konami, the producer of DDR, keeps a very close watch on the open source project StepMania [stepmania.com] (not GPL), which has enabled all players to play their copyrighted songs AND the copyrighted steps on their computer all for free. Konami is also trying to protect the concept of DDR, which they have a patent for. They already are suing one company who based their game off StepMania and so far nothing has happened but it it is still scheduled. Konami, however, never licensed the Japanese version of the game for North America (most DDRs, especially DDR Extremes at Namco arcades, are pirated in the US; you should ask the manager to let you see the CD in the arcade cabinet, it'll be a CDR). ITG (In the Groove), the commercial StepMania derivative, was made after 3 years of having no new DDR version come out beyond the fact that the Japanese versions are technically illegal in North America. The last legal one for US was made in 2000 and is very dated in that sense. Only last year did Konami make a new DDR version (in response to ITG) licensed for US, realising that DDR is still popular around the world, unlike in Japan where it is nearly dead.

    Much like the guitar tab posting community, the so-called "DDR community" online has been copying the exact step patterns from the games for years and converting them into a plain-text format that can be used with a number of game simulators (including StepMania). These do take time and people are just nice enough to share. Different is that there's also music being copied which makes sites that host much more liable for copyright infringement, and they also feel the need to rip the graphics associated with each song (StepMania, with skins, can look near-perfectly the same as a real DDR game; the ripped graphics from the game further enhance this capability). Konami has got a few sites hosting dance steps and songs to shut down before and has threatened legal action.

    Basically, Konami is fully aware of the "DDR community" and its activities (there have been other simulators threatened legal action in Japan by Konami as well), and it has been since about late 2002 when a fair number of step patterns, song recordings, and graphics were stolen from a beta testing machine (of the new version of the time) in an arcade in Japan, and then were subsequently converted to a format usable by StepMania. People were not supposed to be allowed to record at all at the beta testing, but apparently they did not check well enough. Now Konami never lets anyone come to beta test a machine without a full check to make sure they do not have any kind of recording device, including a cell phone that can do more than calls (which is every phone in Japan).

  • Re:Infuriating (Score:5, Interesting)

    by enharmonix ( 988983 ) <enharmonix+slashdot@gmail.com> on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @01:11AM (#19141531)

    One thing i cant stand is big companies taking "legal" action against free services just so they can charge the user money. Infuriating.
    It's not even the money that bothers me, it's that it flies in the face of the whole intent of copyright: that by temporarily granting limited monopolies, society benefits. I imagine the following scenario:

    A young guy picks up a guitar and messes around with it. He can't play a thing, and isn't really interested in investing the time to take proper lessons. He discovers OLGA. He downloads a few simple tabs of Nirvana songs. He works his way up to Metallica, Alice in Chains. He eventually realizes his technique could use some improvement. He starts downloading Bach, Beethoven, etc., because they present more of a challenge. Eventually, he is playing complex works like Leyenda and Capricho Arabe.

    Eventually, he notices there is something fundamentally different in the approach modern music takes from classical music. It "moves" differently. He starts to pay attention to the notes, chord changes, rhythms, and eventually decides that the IT career that he never really cared for just doesn't compete with the idea of learning and perhaps teaching music. He signs up for music theory at his local college. It turns out his technique is good, and he has a knack for music theory, he has perfect pitch, and has such a knack at piano that he has gone from barely being able to read a staff to playing Bach Preludes and Beethoven. All in all, a promising student. He has a 4.0 GPA and a letter of recommendation to one of the most prestigious music colleges in the US where he will study music theory.

    Not so far fetched, that's me. I wouldn't be going for a masters in music theory (or composition, I haven't quite decided) had it not been for OLGA helping me learn that I have quite a knack for music to begin with. If I had to stick to public domain stuff, I probably would have given up. I simply didn't expect it to be anything but a hobby I did when I came home from programming all day. But OLGA got me started enough to realize that, for me at least, it was worth the investment.

    Society benefits from the free and open spread of information. Copyright is just a means to that end: provide incentives for artists to continue creating. But IP is not Freedom of Speech or Habaeus Corpus - it is not a fundamental right. The DMCA hurts society, and I hope to God that somebody important pays attention to the fact that it is being used to shut down educational sites.

    In fact, now that I think about it, nothing that was copyrighted after I was born will move into the public domain before I die of old age... That goes for me, you, my kids, anybody born within the past 20 years. Do you remember when it came out? Then you will never see it in the public domain. But no, apparently we need even tougher copyright controls, can't have people learning how to make the music that got you rich enough to buy the politicians who keep sponsoring idiotic legislation like the DMCA in the first place. Idiots. /rant
  • by hazem ( 472289 ) on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @03:06AM (#19142127) Journal
    That reminds me of this site: http://everything2.com/?node_id=1029506 [everything2.com]

    He talks about a court case that determined only 4 notes had to be in common to violate copyright. With that logic, he determined that there are only 46,656 distinct melodies.

    Assume that all songs use a Western musical scale and that such a scale contains twelve distinct intervals. Assume that a judge (not a musician but a judge) will distinguish three distinct note durations (which roughly correspond to eighth, quarter, and half notes, or through a trivial change in time signature, to quarter, half, and whole notes, or to sixteenth, eighth, and quarter notes). Thus, there are 36 possible distance vectors from one note to the next, and 36^(n - 1) melodies of n notes.

    And not all of those would be worth listening to... so pretty much any 4-notes you play probably violate someone's copyright.
  • Re:Self defeating? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by dominious ( 1077089 ) on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @03:17AM (#19142173)

    And I wonder what this will do to the next generation of musicians?
    well, it will be like back in the 70s when they didnt have the internets to check for tabs.
    to be honest, removing tabs would be like filtering out all those non-talented musicians who would give up learning if they can't LISTEN to the music. ofcourse the RIAA wants to remove that as well.
  • by Kierthos ( 225954 ) on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @04:07AM (#19142343) Homepage
    Okay, here's the thing with Weird Al's parodies.

    1) He doesn't have to obtain permission to do the parody under Fair Use. However, he always asks permission from the artist anyway. If the artist doesn't give permission, Weird Al doesn't put the parody on the album. (Yes, there was the whole Coolio thing, but that was some serious miscommunication.)

    2) His band-mates are pretty accomplished musicians, considering the wide variety of genres of music that they play for the parodies, and they actually learn the music for songs by playing it by ear.
  • That's not the point (Score:3, Interesting)

    by haraldm ( 643017 ) on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @05:27AM (#19142647)
    The point about the management of modern corporations is they want to control the whole thing. They don't care about whether a new generation of musicians can eventually play an instrument or not because in their mind, it is they who generate new musicians. Waiting for somebody to step up and play is too unsafe because no business plan can cover that. This is where talent shows and retort bands come into play. Nobody seriously wants to hear them but for the management they are plannable. Somebody who happens to learn from sheet music is not. It the same phenomenon like the food industry and everywhere else. They want to control the thing, so they produce food that can be easily consumed. People over time will stop learning how to cook things themselves so that they will ultimately depend on industry products. Voila, goal reached, share prices go up, no matter what collateral damage is caused. In the meantime, the management sucks us all out. I am not a commie, mind you, but what happens now is capitalism in its most brutal form. Gains are privatized, and losses are burdened upon the public. It's all the same phenomenon in different incarnations.
  • Porn? No. Tab! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Colonel Angus ( 752172 ) on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @07:57AM (#19143331)
    The very first thing I did when I got online was not rummaging around for porn (there would be plenty of time for that!), it was a search for all of the Primus bass tab that I could get my hands on. It was the reason I wanted to get the 'net. I was at a friend's place and he went to WebCrawler and did a search for me. I was awed that there was such a resource potentially at my disposal. I was surfing the net within a week of that day.
  • Quality... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by nick_davison ( 217681 ) on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @11:09AM (#19145651)
    They do have a good point on the quality side of things...

    Very, very few tabs on sites like Olga come even close to the quality of a decent tab book.

    F5, A#5, G5, C5 may well be the chords to the main part of Teen Spirit but tells me nothing about strum patterns, rhythm, which strings I should be missing on certain strums, etc. It tells me nothing about C and F notes that chime out afterwards.

    Ironically, for all the claims of "I'm not good enough to figure out how to play a song by ear..." - to use most online tabs, aside from getting pointed in the right direction, you really do need to have an ear for rhythm, an ear for when exactly the chord changes happen, what the strum patterns are, when to use up vs. downstrokes, etc.

    There is a major problem in the printed music world that only better known artists merit the expense of producing a good tab book and that most of those books are only available via special order. Still, when they do exist, when you can find them (this is starting to sound like the A-Team), the world of difference between them and the average tab is astronomical.

    I'm caught in the middle: I'd hate to see high quality publishing disappear but I also don't see low quality, text based tabs (that often have five different, all disagreeing, version) really being that much of a threat.

    Then again, in a world where record companies are trying to shore up CD sales, about about including a DVD with video files of exactly what the artists' hands did when playing the songs, lyrics and scores included? Given the choice between iTunes' $0.99 a limited song and $1.29 an unlocked one, I'd rather drop $15 on an album that'll teach me how to play its content as well. Sure, on a one-off basis, those costs would be huge but if it were done for every album, economies of scale could turn it in to a day's filming, a quick editing job and a day or two of a cheap person transcribing it.

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