Puncturing the "PCs Are Cheaper Than Macs" Myth 823
jcatcw writes "The recently converted Scot Finnie went notebook shopping. At the high end of the notebook spectrum, in order to get comparable power and features, a Dell machine comes in $650 over the Apple, and it was clunkier and weighed more. Sony couldn't beat the Apple either. Midrange and low-end machines, though, turn out to be pretty comparable, with more choices in the PC arena but some good values if you happen to want what Apple has decided you need. So, if you're talking name-brand hardware, it's just no longer the case that PCs are cheaper than Macs."
Re:No competition on the low end (Score:2, Informative)
I just bought a Dell Inspiron 1501 with the highest-end AMD Turion 64 X2 processor, 1gb RAM, 80gb SATA HD, 9-cell battery (not the usual 4-6 cell), etc., for $595 via an online deal. If I had wanted to go Core 2 Duo, I could've got something similar to the $1099 MacBook for around $800-900 from Dell or HP.
And frankly, I don't see my new computer as low end. I'm trying to figure out how a more expensive computer would differ... more RAM and HD, somewhat lighter weight, and maybe a built-in webcam or something.
Bah. (Score:1, Informative)
The Macbook pro which seemed comparable was $2500 if I remember correctly. So I beg to differ!
Not to mention I actually get millions of colors...
Did I mention that already?
Re:System76 (Score:2, Informative)
Carefully constructed effort to miss the point (Score:3, Informative)
Okay, so if you are looking for something that happens to be exactly what Apple thinks you want, and if you restrict the universe to major name brands, Apple isn't more expensive. True, but this isn't a "no longer", and doesn't point to any real "myth". The whole "Apple is more expensive" thing has always been based on the fact that people don't always want exactly the combination of features Apple has decided they need, and, even more importantly, because in the PC world, the universe of options is not restricted to the biggest names.
And, also, has always been more about desktops, rather than notebooks: in notebooks, the options even in the PC world have always been narrower than for desktops, and so the difference has never been as pronounced there.
Re:Notebooks, eh? (Score:5, Informative)
http://news.com.com/PC+milestone--notebooks+outse
Mid-range macbook cheaper than a Dell? Ha! (Score:5, Informative)
And I still think that Apple computers are some of the highest quality computers you can get, and believe me, if mid-range Macs were cheaper, I'd have one.
But this is simply a ridiculous claim with nothing to back it. For starters, Dell constantly has sales, whereas Macs are always the same price, no drops, no competitive pricing, nothing. A macbook is a macbook is $1,099 is $1,099. No matter where you go.
Just going to both the Apple store and the Dell store right now, this is what we have:
MacBook: $1374 (13.3", 2.0 GHz, 1GB, 160GB HD, generic crappy graphics card, 1 year warranty, standard ports + wireless)
Dell E1505: $1374 (15", 2.0 GHz, 1GB, 160GB HD, ATI X1400, 2 year warranty, standard ports + wireless)
And mind you this is not even with a Dell sale, this is just your standard off-the-shelf prices. Not only is the Dell $100 cheaper, it comes with a 2 year warranty instead of 1 year, a graphics card you can actually play games with, and a display that's 2" bigger.
Sorry to burt your bubble, but PC's/Dell has apple beat on the low-end. High end I'll even give you, but again, if you get Dell/AlienWare on a sale, I bet you the PC would still be cheaper than a Mac (Apple doesn't have sales).
Perhaps YOU should read... (Score:3, Informative)
Not so on the desktop (Score:3, Informative)
Re:No competition on the low end (Score:4, Informative)
1) Dell Dimension C521 - 359 Dollars
AMD Sempron 3400
Windows Vista Home Basic
512MB SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA Drive
48X CD-RW/ DVD Combo Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Integrated Graphics GPU
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse
56K PCI Data Fax Modem
2) Mac Mini 599 Dollars
1.66 GHz Intel Core Duo
512MB SDRAM
60GB Serial ATA drive
Mac OS X
Intel GMA 950 graphics
No Keyboard, No Monitor
Not true anymore (Score:5, Informative)
Apple does not sell any MacBook at all for under $1100.
I'm sorry, but macs are still more expensive, and as far as I'm concerned, at all price points. The reason the Dell came out so expensive for the reviewer, is that he insisted that the Dell have the exact same specs as the mac. That forced him into a way higher price point on the Dell than he probably needed.
Reminder, this for me, not for you, but I could dispense with a lot of those requirements if it meant a much cheaper machine. For instance, I don't need the integrated video camera, several of those ports, and the screen is upgraded way beyond what I need. If I were to build my "dream" notebook, it would cost way less than $2800, like the mac did.
All that being said, I think Macs are great, and OS X is great. I'd buy a mac if I could afford it.
Re:Imagine... (Score:4, Informative)
Both VMWare Fusion AND Parallels have 3D acceleration in the latest version. I just did a benchmark between my Dell work laptop and both virtualizations. The dell is a 1.83GHz and my MacBook Pro is 2.00 Ghz. Both virtualizations were faster than the Dell. "But the Dell is slower" you cry, show me one game that will run amazingly well on a 2.00GHz and like a dog on a 1.83GHz. Most games were designed for processors slower than that anyway. If you are on the most cutting edge of gaming, I doubt that any laptop, other than the custom Alienware, is going to be fast enough for you anyways.
The thing is, Apple controls the hardware. I tried out boot camp (and went back to virtualization), Apple's drivers for Windows XP were much better than Dell's drivers for their laptops. iSight, 2 fingered scrolling, battery control. Windows worked better on my Mac than it did on my Dell prior to it.
Yes, there are fewer, but I would argue that they are higher quality. How many programs do you need to keep track of recipes? Windows probably has a few dozen programs. Version tracker & Mac Update list 3 for Mac that absolutely rock. They're designed differently, one lets you drag and drop recipies into a calender, each has different features that I could see appealing to different types of people. However they're all exceptionally well made, the UI in all of them is beautiful. The same goes for almost every piece of software I use. How many DVD Ripping programs do I need? MacTheRipper does it all. How about VIDEO_TS to DVD.iso? DVD Imager does just fine. I'd rather have 5 programs to do X where 3 are amazing to use than 100 programs to do X where 3 are amazing to use.
Where does this damn argument keep coming from? Yes there is only 1 button. But there are 3 ways to active a right click. I have my preference and other people have theirs. You can:
Re:No competition on the low end (Score:5, Informative)
Let's do just that. For $800, from Dell, I can get:
Dell Dimension E520, C2D 1.8GHz, 2GB RAM, 250GB SATA 7200rpm, 16x DVDRW, Intel GMA X3000, Firewire. Oh, and this little handy thing, too: a 17" LCD that doesn't come with the Apple below:
Apple Mac Mini, $799 edition. C2D 1.83GHz, 512MB RAM, 80GB SATA drive, 8x DVDRW, Intel GMA 950, Firewire. No display.
Come on, even you would have to confess it's not much of a comparison. The only winning point to the Mac Mini in this case is "small form factor". It loses on every other.
This is horse puckey - Acer - $399 (Score:3, Informative)
Macs are great, but they cost.
Re:This is because you can no longer comparison sh (Score:5, Informative)
First, no 386 systems had math coprocessors. The difference between a 386sx and a 386dx involved the sizes of the data and address buses coming off the chip. An sx processor had a 16-bit database and a 24-bit address bus. A 32-bit request would take two requests. It could only physically connect to 16 MB of RAM.
Mhz never mattered outside of the same processor from the same company. A 66 Mhz Pentium ran circles around 120 Mhz 486s. SPARCs, MIPS, and Alpha's generally ate the intel and compatibles for lunch at much lower clock rates.
Re:Imagine... (Score:4, Informative)
So you're telling me that the context menu that pops up when I click the right button on the (Microsoft) mouse plugged into my Mac mini is a figment of my imagination? How much more support is needed than that?
I suppose if I had a MacBook (or whatever), lack of a right button on the trackpad would be a minor annoyance, but I rarely use the trackpads on my notebooks anyway. With the one that gets lugged around, I haul a Bluetooth mouse around with it.
Not competitive at the high end either (Score:5, Informative)
MacBook Pro 15.4"
Processor Intel Core 2 Duo T7400(2.16GHz)
Memory 1GB DDR2
Screen Size 15.4"
Resolution 1440 x 900
ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 128 MB
Hard Drive 120GB 5400 RPM
Optical Drive DVD±R/RW 6x
LAN 10/100/1000Mbps
WLAN 802.11g Wireless LAN
Bluetooth Bluetooth 2.0+EDR
Card slot 1 x ExpressCard/34 slot
USB Two 480-Mbps USB 2.0 ports
FireWire One FireWire 400 port at up to 400 Mbps
Video Port 1 x DVI (VGA output using included DVI to VGA adapter)
Audio Port Combined optical digital input/audio line in (minijack)
Webcam Built-in iSight Camera
Dimension 14.1" x 9.6" x 1.0"
Weight 5.6 lbs.
Currenly $1965 at Newegg [newegg.com]
Asus A8JS
Processor Intel Core 2 Duo T7200 2.00G
Memory 1GB DDR2
Hard Drive 120GB 5400 RPM
Optical Drive DVD±R/RW 8x
NVIDIA GeForce Go 7700 512MB (about 25%-40% faster than the x1600, which is underclocked on the Mac)
Screen Size 14"
Resolution 1440 x 900
LAN 10/100/1000Mbps
WLAN 802.11a/b/g Wireless LAN
IRDA Yes
Card Slot 1 x Express Card
USB 5
IEEE 1394 1 (aka firewire)
Video Port 1 x VGA, 1 x DVI, 1 x S-Video TV-out
Audio Ports 1 x Headphone-out jack (SPDIF)
Card Reader MMC, SD, MS, MS PRO
Webcam 0.35 Mega-Pixel web-cam
Dimensions 13.19" x 9.65" x 1.37-1.46"
Weight 5.25 lbs.
Current $1380 at Newegg [newegg.com]
Yes the screen is smaller but the resolution is the same and the laptop is an inch more compact in width as a result. Otherwise, the only major factors in the Mac's favor were the thinness, better construction, bluetooth (a $50 option I didn't need on the Asus), and an imperceptibly faster CPU. Everything else went in favor of the Asus. The price difference is currently about $600. At the time I was $700 ($1500 vs. $2200) or 46% higher for the Mac for a worse video card, no VGA out, no TV out, fewer USB slots, no memory card slot, and a bigger, heavier computer. There was just no comparison.
Comparing to Dell's web prices is misleading. Dell frequently gives out coupons that give $500-$1000 or 25%-40% discounts on their systems and laptops. Everyone knows Sony is way overpriced. That said, the high end MacBooks are premium computers and are priced in-line with other premium computers. If you're OK with paying extra for a premium computer, then that's fine. But if you do a little searching, you can find better notebooks for less, they just won't be well-known brands. If Apple doesn't fall egregiously behind (their new Santa Rosa MacBook will use an nVidia 8600 GT, which looks like it'll be a solid graphics card), my next notebook will probably be a MacBook so I can run OS/X.
Confirming your theory.... :) (Score:5, Informative)
> 486, and 486SX, in all the MHz flavors.
Nope, the 386SX was a 386 instruction set compatible processor with a 286 bus to allow easy reuse of existing motherboard designs. The 486SX was the one with the lobotomized mathco. Not nit picking ya, just using it as an example to confirm your proposition. If even us junkies have trouble telling the buzzwords and stats apart how the hell is joe average going to have a prayer? Answer: he doesn't. He does what you do and grab an emachines from Wallyworld or Best Buy... or more likely becomes one more dude with a Dell.
But one thing is certain, the trend is down. Unless we have another major round of software bloating the number of people who are happy with a minimal machine is growing. This means the magic place is >$1000 on a laptop and $500 for a desktop. Apple doesn't even try to compete in that space and I suspect Microsoft is going to have trouble with Vista if the bar lowers yet again. See the article on slashdot this week about Asus and their $200 laptop like device coming this summer to a store near you. That is the future, and adding $100 for the Microsoft tax at that price point ain't happening.
Try this experiment if you really want to see what could happen. Go to newegg.com (or any similar site) and see how much desktop you can get for $200. Any volume manufacturer could buy those same basic parts, apply some massive integration, cheap plastic case, etc and sell em on pallets to Walmart at a wholesale price low enough to allow Wallyworld to sell finished boxes for that same $200. To date that hasn't happened because of the question of what to load. Microsoft is too expensive to make the plan viable and they fear a bad reaction if they stick Linux on, probably[1] rightly. But the power of the market is powerful, so someone will eventually figure a way to tap it.
So in the end, both Apple and Microsoft are most likely to be defeated by an inability to readjust their pricing model quickly enough. And if Dell, etc. isn't careful they will go with em. Computers are about to become consumer electronics. That means high volume, low margin. Even Dell still gets amrgins most CE corps only dream of.
[1] Because most people don't even realize anything but Windows exists, especially the Walmart set. Thus when they can't load World of Warcrack, etc. many will try to return it and Walmart takes almost anything back.
Re:Imagine... (Score:3, Informative)
On the other hand, most consumers don't care. They just want a computer.
Or, if you'd rather spend time doing other things, you can get a Mac.
As a long-time Mac user, where I've run into the "Oh, I can't find an app to do that" is in external hardware support. I want my Mac to talk to this device but the guy who makes the device doesn't support the Mac. My favorite example? I got a car several years ago with a diagnostic connector. I was thinking this would be a cool thing to hook up to my Mac and read the information about how my engine is performing, etc. There was a package that would do that, but it's Windows-only.
So, yup. If I want to tune my car, you're right. I'm SOL with a Mac. For the other 99.997% of humanity, this isn't a big deal.
I'd also point out the "brand name" issue. If you want to run AutoCAD, you need Windows. If you want to do CAD, there are plenty of applications that run on the Mac. So if AutoCAD is what you need, you need Windows. If you're using a Mac, you'll have to invest some time, effort, knowledge, and comparison shopping to get just the right application.
Hm. That sounds familiar.
About the only advantage you have on the Mac is that it will at least jump up and say, "Please authenticate" so it's a little more obvious that somebody wants to do something. "Gee, why should I have to authenticate in order to read this greeting card that somebody sent me?" It's not much help, granted, but at least it's something and it doesn't pop-up nearly as often as UAC does under Vista.
Re:This is because you can no longer comparison sh (Score:4, Informative)
Laptops are more tricky, but it really just comes down to buying Intel or AMD. Right now Intel is the way to go for laptops - and has been since at least 2003. Last time I just poked around on the internet to find that this seemed to be the consensus.
Re:To the average person (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not true anymore (Score:5, Informative)
Better recheck your specs... (Score:3, Informative)
According to the Apple Store'sMac Mini page [apple.com]:
By the way, to get the superdrive, you have to get the more expensive Mini ($799). Otherwise it's just a DVD-ROM/CD-RW drive. And I know it's a slot-loading drive, but I've never seen a brand name for that drive, so what's to tell me that it is a better drive? From the point of view of the Apple Store, it is a generic DVD drive. (By the way, can it take a mini CD/DVD?) Also, what's special about the Apple memory, other than being expensive? I never see a brand name given with the memory specs, either.
Also, the $599 Mini only comes with 512MB RAM and a 60 GB hard drive. It's hard to find another desktop with such a small hard drive. In fact, the cheapest desktop I can find on Dell's website (Dimension E520 [dell.com]) costs $379, and uses a Pentium D 925 (not a 64-bit Core 2 Duo, but it's still dual core), 160 GB hard drive, and 1GB RAM, and Intel GMA X3000 graphics instead of the GMA 950 in the mini.
The truth is, the Mini is somewhat in-line with the low-end Windows boxes, but everything is packed into such a small space, and that's what you're paying for (paying in terms of performance and in price). Personally, I think it's a decent trade-off, so long as you understand its limitations. That said, I'm leaning towards an iMac or a Mini when I get around to buying my next computer. I like the small size and footprint of the mini, but by the time I spec out a Mini to meet my needs, I'm in the price range of an iMac. I think it's a stretch to say that the $599 Mini is so much better than the "bottom of the barrel" stuff out there. It has a niche, and works out alright for that niche.
Re:No competition on the low end (Score:4, Informative)
I don't know about the original poster, you are right about him probably being a hopeless fanboi. But I also recommend Macs and I'm a Linux bigot. Why? There is method in my madness!
First lets be blunt a bout what it means when a friend/family asks me to recommend a machine. What they are really asking me to to is become their support person for life. Any geek who knows me well enough to be asking for advice will probably be ready for the Penguin, at least a dual boot. But for the rest I recommend they buy a Mac. Were they to actually do that I wouldn't mind providing them with support because they wouldn't need much. But I have yet to actually sell anyone on a Mac because a) there ins't anyplace within a hundred miles to actually see/buy one and b) they cost too much for people out here in flyover country... which kinda explains the first point.
Re: qiuite true, but I can't blame them either (Score:3, Informative)
By contrast, when I order a new Apple notebook on their web site, each specific detail is listed, and can be customized in many cases. If the competition was sold identically, I think people would have a clearer sense of what they're getting for their dollar.
Go to Dell's site. You'll find even more information than Apple provides.
Re:Blah (Score:5, Informative)
You're entitled to your opinion, but take this from someone who's owned a number of PC notebooks, and knows a large number of people who own PC notebooks of all brands. (Dell, Toshiba, Acer, I am currently on a MacBook Pro, and very very happy).
If you're comparing brands like AOpen, Acer, and Toshiba to Apple, you are seriously delusional about build quality. Toshiba in my experience constantly offers more bang for the buck - my Satellite M30 was insanely fast for its price point. Of course, it also sucked ass, was flimsy, and broke a lot. The keyboard would flex downwards while typing, the trackpad would be sometimes unresponsive and difficult to use... The multimedia keys just plain didn't work... I could go on.
Acer is not better off either. If your machine doesn't have some major glitch on arrival, thank the Gods, and then proceed to discover little design flaws like whiny fans, crappy bearings in cooling units making strange grinding noises... etc. Things that Acer simply refuses to fix, regardless of how much you yell at the poor heavily-accented guy at the other end of the line (after holding for 2 hours). I will be quite content with my Mac, which if it ever has problems (it's had a few minor gremlins) is a quick phone call, with minimal waiting time, and a support rep that actually speaks English and won't run me through the checklist.
I've never dealt personally with Sony support, but like IBM, I suspect the quality is FAR above what you would get with brands like Toshiba and Acer. I've never been on hold more than 10 minutes on an Apple support line, and every time I called and described my problem, the support tech immediately got down to the issue, instead of running me around with insipid "is your computer plugged in" checklists. Repairs are similarly painless. When the latch on my MacBook Pro broke, I phoned in, and got a FedEx box in the mail the next day. No arguing, no hassles, I gave them my serial number and they confirmed my warranty, and BAM.
But yes, build quality is important to those of us who rely on our laptops for a living. I have a level of respect for Sony Vaios and IBM/Lenovo ThinkPads, because I have used them first hand and I know that their quality is excellent. The same goes for Apple. Toshiba, Acer, and older Dells are invariably crap in a plastic shell, though Dell has made some major improvements in recent years (support still sucks though).
Re:To the average person (Score:4, Informative)
Mac Mini
$599
1.66GHz Core Duo
512mb RAM
60gb SATA
DVD Combo Drive (24x)
Intel GMA 950 IGP
No mouse/keyboard!
No monitor
No modem
Dell Dimension E521
$529
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 3800+
1gb Dual Channel DDR2 @ 667MHz
160gb SATA @ 7200RPM
DVD Combo Drive (48x CD-RW)
nVidia GeForce 6150 LE IGP
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical Mouse
15" Analog Flat Panel
56k Modem
This is why people think Apple is more expensive than, well, any other PC. If you want to keep the processor the same, there is a Dell in the same price range. To add a display from the "customize" page of the mini, you ONLY have a 20" or 23" FP available as a choice (at $599 and $899). Looking at their store, they don't seem to OFFER a 15", 17", or even 19" screen. That is ridiculous. That is why people complain about Apple hardware prices.
I agree with what the article says about the higher-end laptop prices. I thought, when I first read what was in the article "Psssshh.. What a bunch of bull. There has to be several that are very similar in both hardware specs and prices..."
For kicks and giggles, I tried to find another "desktop" that would match the price of the Dell I quoted above. Nothing. Closest you'll get is the 17" iMac, which is at 1.83GHz Cor 2 Duo, 160gb HDD, the same 24x "combo drive", and the same video. At $999!
For more kicks and giggles, I decided to also take on the "Mac Pro". At $2499 (I upgraded the ram to 2gb instead of 1gb because I got a good combo deal on a mainboard/2gb RAM -- everything else was stock), putting parts together on NewEgg (sorted by "best rating", not "lowest price", I came up with a similar system, though with only 4 memory slots instead of 8, for $1000.43 (that includes 3 day UPS shipping). Yes, you are reading that correctly. $1500 LESS than the Apple, for essentially the same machine. Newegg didn't have a LGA775 board with 8 slots, though I very much doubt the difference between the one I selected and an 8-slotter would be $1500. It also wasn't a dual-cpu board, but again, there won't be a $1500 price difference. I just realized I didn't add in an OS. If you want to keep the price down, use what you had or linux. Or add $89.99 for XP Home. Still substantially less than the "Mac Pro".
So, overall, I'm going to stick with the "Apple hardware is overpriced compared to PC's!" line, because for the most part, they are.
Is the price difference as HUGE today as it was "back in the day"? No. Is it there? Most definitely.
Incidentally, I saved the part list for the "Mac Pro" counterpart. If anyone would like to see it, contact me at m i k e at s i n e p d o t g o t d n s d o t c o m (Yes, it is a real domain, and yes, the address works -- it's hosted via Google's mail for domains hosting). Realize, though, that I use it for spam catching, mostly, so if you just decide to sign me up for crap, you aren't really going to hurt me. I do check the address each day, so if you really want to see the parts I chose, feel free to email me.
Re:Not true anymore (Score:3, Informative)
The baseline Mac Mini's Core 1 Duo processor ought to outperform the C3 by about a factor of 6, and a factor of 10 or more if you need floating point. It has twice as much RAM which is more than twice as fast, and an optical drive. And while Intel integrated graphics chips are slow, they beat VIA graphics hands down.
As it happens, the PC is significantly overpriced: if you want to go VIA, you can get better components for a lower price (and I should know, I built such a PC). But it would be difficult to make any EPIA system perform anywhere near a Mac Mini for anything taxing other than crypto.
Re:Bollocks! (Score:2, Informative)
The Core2Duo is 64-bit and faster than the Turion. The RAM in the MacBook is 667MHz, not 533. Also, check the graphics specs, the XPress 1150 is an integrated chip that uses shared system memory just like the 950 - it's just made by AMD instead of Intel. Neither will deliver a great gaming experience.
Then there's software. OS X is more comparable to Vista Home Premium at minimum. Not to mention better installed apps. For the specs and build quality, the MacBook and MacBook Pro are more comparable to the Latitudes, XPS ore Mobile Precisions than they are to the Inspirons.
For those of us who carry our laptops around occasionally, often with other items, the issues of size and weight are not inconsequential.
For a more apples to apples (pardon the pun) comparison, spec out the E1405 instead. It's smaller and lighter and uses the Core2Duo instead of AMD's rather disappointing mobile chips. The price difference will shrink rather rapidly. The old maxim holds true, you get what you pay for.
Re:Mid-range macbook cheaper than a Dell? Ha! (Score:3, Informative)
Macs are PCs! (Score:2, Informative)
Apple's marketing will never change that. Why are you people so easily swayed by marketing?
Re:No competition on the low end (Score:3, Informative)
Re:To the average person (Score:5, Informative)
Strike 1
The mini received it's updates when the announcement of the switch to Intel came out. Now, whether this was a year ago or not, doesn't matter. What matters is that it has, in fact, had an update.
Sure you can build a highly specific machine that meets your individual needs usually cheaper than buying a pre-made system... but thats about all you proved pricing out your parts at newegg... nothing to do with Apple. The Mac Pro is even cheaper than Dell workstations with similiar configuration.
Strike 2
Nice of you to sling your crap around without actually having seen the parts I selected. Seagate HDD (one of the most expensive of the brands), Thermaltake 600w PS with cable management (bet the Apple doesn't have that!), the same Xeon, a nice case (it was a case that even had sound dampening material in it), a nice Microsoft keyboard and optical mouse (not the most expensive, by far, but still nice), a SATA CD-ROM that was *faster* than listed in the Apple specs. I even chose a 7300gt with the same 256mb RAM.
No.. no.. don't go by what I actually chose. Just pick the part where I said Newegg didn't have the same mainboard, so I chose one as close to what was in the Apple machine as possible, and then decide that everything else I chose was substandard crap (hell, the mainboard was an Asus! Hardly crap... It was also one of the most expensive boards in the catagory (if not the most expensive)).
Looking back, I did spec the wrong processor when I was pricing my machine (I didn't notice that it specified a "woodcrest" core, so I chose the first 2.66ghz I saw in the "Xeon" list). More about that below...
As I said, feel free to email me with the parts list request. I'll gladly send it along.
People get upset about Apple being "overpriced" not because they are, but because they simply do not understand that Apple has no want to compete in all areas of the market. They take Apple machines focused at a different area of the market and try to fit it into their comparisons. Apple really doesn't want everyones business... if you want to custom build a machine with the exact parts you want... you know what... Apple does NOT want your business at all...
Strike 3, you're out!
FUD. Period. I speced out a "Mac Pro", but with 'PC parts', and it came in $1500 LESS than the lowest end Apple Mac Pro. Yes, it didn't have a "server class" mainboard, but those are not $1500, my fiend. Not even close. I just got to looking at the Apple web site and saw they are listing a "woodcrest" processor, so I went back to my list and noticed I did not choose a Woodcrest. Ok. I find the *exact* processor. $713 from Newegg. Newegg doesn't carry any socket 771 boards (that I could find in their "advanced list" of category selections. I go to Tyan's web site, find an 8 ddr2 socket havin', 2 cpu socket sportin' board. Search google for it's model number (Tempest i5000PX), and choose the first link (so I could probably have gotten a better deal if I looked). Find the board for $426 at superwarehouse.com. That is $1138.99. That fits in the price difference between what I spec'ed and Apple's price! That doesn't even include me REMOVING the processor and board I chose in the first place. That means I'm *still* $300-ish cheaper than the Mac Pro!
You Fail It!
Re:Yeah... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Maybe Apple should consider licensing OS/X agai (Score:2, Informative)
Apple designs their systems in-house, and contract out manufacturing. What you're suggesting, instead, is that they allow outside companies to design and build OS X systems on their own, as long as they meet some QA standard set and enforced by Apple.
Your suggestion sounds like the wrong cut of the problem space. The way Apple have cut it, all the design people (for the OS, the hardware and the apps) are under the same roof as the people who QA their work.
Re:Macs are PCs! (Score:4, Informative)
Back when I started being a computer nerd in the late '70s, Apples and TRS-80s and Commodore PETs and (long list of more obscure brands...) were all sometimes called "personal computers," but more often called "microcomputers" by enthusiasts. The term "Personal Computer" came into play because that's what IBM named their first microcomputer: the IBM Personal Computer. That was in 1981. By 1983, programs like PC-Draw and PC-Write and PC-Terminal were shipping from third parties, there was "PC: The Disk Magazine," and companies were advertising games with "Available for Apple II, ColecoVision, and IBM PC."
The Mac, conversely, didn't come out until 1984. By the late '80s, programs were being advertised for IBM PC and/or Mac, and people were referring to "PC clones." The letters "PC" became associated with IBM PCs and compatibles not because of "Mac fanboys," but because IBM called the damn thing the IBM PC. Don't blame "less savvy" Apple users for the confusion between x86 architecture and the term PC -- less savvy IBM users are just as to blame, if not more so.
As for the confusion beween x86 and Windows, well, it didn't get the nickname "Wintel" in the '90s for nothing. The 80x86 line and Windows had a decidedly symbiotic relationship, I'd say. For practical purposes, "PC" did mean computers running Windows; whether or not it offends purists, PC = IBM PC compatible and the number of PC-compatible machines running non-Windows operating systems was extremely neglible for the longest time. One has to actually be pretty familiar with computers to make the distinction between (lower case) "personal computer," "workstation" and "server." (After all, just about anything can be pressed into use as a server, whether or not it's "server-class" hardware.)
Re:To the average person (Score:2, Informative)
so, pray tell, how did you get $1000.43?
Re:To the average person (Score:2, Informative)
so, pray tell, how did you get $1000.43?
To answer both of your questions:
Yes, I did notice that all the Mac Pro's are dual processor (read, two dual core Xeons) *capable*. What you seem to have failed to notice is that they don't all come with dual processors, you jackass.
Also, 2gb of FB-DIMM RAM apparently isn't as expensive as you thought. Here [newegg.com] is the best rated set of 1gb FB-DIMM's. $170. Well within what I quoted above.
As I said in a previous message, if you want the parts list I selected (obviously, with updated mainboard/processor), I'll gladly send it along. I admitted the mistake I made when I didn't notice they used a woodcrest processor, and I fixed it (and, obviously, I'm still correct in my pricing or that comment wouldn't be sitting at +4, now would it?).
Now, anything *else* you want to make your self look like more of an idiot over?