angrykeyboarder writes "Scientists have discovered a way to fit 500 GB of data onto DVD-sized discs. These discs would be created with a process called 'microholography, which combines multilayer storage of data with holographic imagery. From the article: 'Microholography allows data to be stored in three dimensions. The technology works by replacing the two-dimensional pit-land structures currently found on CDs and DVDs with microgratings, which are holographically induced using two laser beams. In other words, instead of recording to a series of bumps and pits like standard CDs, the new technology creates three-dimensional holographic grids that can be used for reading and writing data throughout the physical structure of the disc.'"
If you scratch one of these you lose 500GB of data, just as with any other 500GB disk. But the fact that you can record 500GB in a CD-like disk means that you can make several copies and store them in separate places.
Not very easy to scratch all the disks at the same time if one is in your office, another in your car and the other at your cousin's place.
I don't know if I need a single DVD-sized disc to store 500GB of data. What I think would be cooler is if that space was made redundant and strewn all over the disc, so I could store maybe 100GB or so (still way lots) and have the peace of mind of knowing that an accidental scratch isn't likely to lose me anything.
Seen the Dvdisaster [sourceforge.net] project? It uses some of the space (15 percent by default) as parity data at the image level to make a disc a lot more secure from scratching or other forms of what would otherwise cause data loss. Hell set it to 50 percent and you can pretty much guarantee the disc will be recoverable however badly you scratch it.
I don't know how many times a disc has become unreadable because the TOC was damaged. You can have all the parity data in the world, if the TOC is gone you're screwed.:(
If only there were a DVD format writable/readable with consumer-grade drives that had multiple redundant TOCs.
you would thing that with the technology of Glasses with scratch resistant coatings they would add that to this CD/DVD type
Not that the scratch resistant coating on my glasses help that much... most minor scratches on media doesnt affect it's readability (unless it is on the top/label surface). Major scratches on the bottom that affect media readability wont be prevented with the anti-scratch technology used on glasses.
The better idea would be a better coating on the label side, or like on some old CDs, a second layer over the media substrate layer. I still have some old CDs that had a second plastic layer - thus embedding t
by Anonymous Coward
on Sunday July 08 2007, @04:11AM (#19787507)
Please no. Can someone tell them to stop working on CDs already? Seriously, HD-DVD is no more than a smaller vinyl. We've got the same technology for over 100 years and they're still trying to "improve" it? Can someone already remove all the moving (spinning) parts of my laptop? I really do not see the point of including 3 different motors in a XXI century technology.
He has a good point. The tech seems cool and all especially for long term storage but solid state is the real future. Battery life is still pretty poor for most devices and many people are moving away from the desktop.
I personally don't own a desktop anymore and just hook my laptop up to a keyboard, monitor, and mouse when at home or work. I foresee the desktop dying except for hardcore gamers and servers. If I'm correct then spinning media doesn't make sense. Motors drain battery life and increase latency while throwing in a mechanical cog that can fail.
If I'm correct then spinning media doesn't make sense. Motors drain battery life and increase latency while throwing in a mechanical cog that can fail.
On the other hand, you get 500Gb on one disc. So it makes a bit of sense.
I don't see solid state meeting or beating mechanical drives in price/performance for quite some time. For many circumstances, flash speed and capacity is good enough, but it's still way too expensive for most people. The latest flash drives didn't really beat the speed or capacity of 2.5" drives, though they beat the 1.8" drives. Still, $500 for a 32GB SSD isn't something I'm interested in.
The fact that moving parts reduce cost by exploiting symmetry is hard to beat. Either you have one/several reader/writer that can move around to access the bits => cheaper, or you hardwire billions into the storage media => more stable.
Or, instead of putting the substrate onto a disk, you put it in a cube (or sphere, etc) and use a couple of DLPs to aim the laser anywhere inside the volume. With the rate at which DLPs are dropping in price, this should be fairly cheap in a few years.
On the other hand, at the rate available bandwidth is increasing, there is a much smaller need for portability. With a 4G mobile data network you may as well leave most of your data in a RAID array (where 'D' stands for whatever the densest cheap storage mechanism is) and stream what you need, with a few GBs of local cache. Latency is still going to be a problem, but WAN latency is still lower than optical disk latency in a lot of cases.
At the current rate of capacity increases / price drops, I bet flash drives will overtake CD/DVD technology. By the time this tech comes to market, I'll be able to buy 500G USB thumb drives that are 100 times faster than today's thumb drives, and cost about $10.
"Seriously, ICs are is no more than a smaller transistor. We've got the same technology for over 60 years and they're still trying to "improve" it?"
Anyways, then don't buy the product. There are notebooks that do not include a built-in optical drive. If you truly believed in a non-motor computer, you can probably get a SSD -based Toshiba ultraportable right now. The problem is that with demanding no motors, you can't expect a fast CPU or graphics processor because that would require a fan to cool them, which is another motor. So that leaves you with a 1.3GHz notebook with 32GB of "hard drive", for over $2000. At least it would look pretty cool and be very light. I think there are Panasonics without motors too.
Research-wise, it's probably not your money to spend. No one can predict what technology will prevail, and the good idea is for different groups to invest in what they are good at, and the market decides what is most desirable for what task. The optical drive will still be mainstream for a while yet, and after that, possibly remain a viable niche for much longer.
I wish this type of tech would develop into something in the form factor of the minidisc. I still have my music mindiscs, some of them about 10 years old. There's something about that size, the protective case, and even the colors that makes the form factor interesting. I'd love to be able to have a ~300GB Truecrypt container on a rewritable minidisc-type thing.
I've always found DVDs/CDs too large. Yes, they make mini-cdrs and mini-dvds (I used to have a Sony CD Mavica) but they don't have the protective case the minidiscs had. Some things are just ergonomically right, and I regret that we didn't go a little further in that direction.
I blows me away how Sony missed out on the opportunity to use the MD format for data storage. It could have been the perfect 3 1/2 floppy drive replacement. How aggravating that they wasted the chance!
The MD failed for the same reason the Iomega Zip and similar devices did: companies want to profit in every possible way from their inventions to the point that their patents prevent others from doing anything useful with the technology. This reduces the market until the technology dies and nobody can revive it due to those patents. I have no data handy about it, but I'm pretty sure the same practice was not applied to hard disks and floppies, otherwise we'd be still saving data to punchcards.
I had a MDH-10, an external scsi-device using 140MB per disc.
For more information, see http://www.minidisc.org/md_data_table.html [minidisc.org]
They even had digital cameras use discs!
Unfortunately, sony has a bad track record in coming up with their own formats and formfactors.
I couldn't agree more. The original MD-Data at 140MB per disk was bigger than my laptop drive at the time (60MB). The later revisions, at 650MB and 1GB, are still a nice form factor. If Sony had gone the CD-ROM route of charging a small royalty on each disk and drive, and letting other people manufacture both, then I doubt I'd be using CDs for music today. Three things really killed the format:
The drives were expensive, and were never included in laptop (where they would have been ideal for backup and data transfer).
They charged a premium for 'data' disks, even though the music disks also stored digital data, and were identical in every way except for a flag allowing the MD-Data drive to use them.
They didn't allow the drive to read or write music. CD-ROM drives could play your music through your PC speakers, MD-Data drives couldn't.
The number of Sony products that have failed due to bad management make me wonder if anyone actually owns Sony shares. If I'd owned any in the '80s or '90s I'd have been calling loudly for the board to replace the management.
I blows me away how Sony missed out on the opportunity to use the MD format for data storage. It could have been the perfect 3 1/2 floppy drive replacement. How aggravating that they wasted the chance!
500GB is a LOT of data. Great for backups, perhaps for storing raw video footage and so on, but hard to justify for distributing data or for sneakernet uses.
A minidisc equivalent would be what, 100GB or so? That is a very viable proposition. Credit card sized discs would be quite popular too. Solid state equivalence is a long way off.
Data on minidisc was available, it just didn't take off. I've seen a Sony computer with a minidisc drive. It certainly would have been better than allowing Zip drives to take off, and I think it predated Zip.
Yep. I agree. A reader/writer unit for the minidisc isn't all that expensive to adapt to a PC. The size of the media is perfect to put in a pocket. Its already in protective case. And it seems to last a really long time. The amount of time I've spent playing some of the MDs, my CDs or DVDs would likely have a scratch on by now. I really wish selling MDs instead of CDs had caught on in NA as it has, i hear, in Japan. Do we really have to take spinning optical discs to new levels? I think industry should conce
... a thousand times. The traditional 2D-technology is uncompetitive since the end of the 1990s. The cutting edge of optical disks are HD-DVDs als BR-Discs with up to 50 Gigs, but even todays harddisks can store an entire terabyte of data. At the beginning one or two CD-Rs where able to store the content of a common harddisk, today you would need dozens of expensive BR-Discs to backup all that stuff. A holographic storage system with 500 Gigs or more should be the past, not the future. The industry failed at this point. They try to sell us an old, but badly advanced technology from yesterday.
I hope this is chance for Newcomers. New smaller companies with good and really innovative products. But my fear is that the power in public relations of the present giants of the market will prevent it. Wouldn't be the first time that bad technology wins the race.
And as proof to your point, the most convenient form of storage I use is a laptop HDD in an USB rack. The storage capacity and the speed are great. The read/write access and portability is a breeze because most computers around today have a USB connector. I can upgrade the HDD to bigger and faster whenever I want, with much better cost per GB than anything else around. A well thought case will protect the HDD fairly well, and it's not like I purposely throw it around anyway. The size and weight are small en
Come on, we get these announcements every few weeks, but nobody ever delivers a product. This isn't even news for nerds, it is just vaporware. Wake me up when they create a product that I can actually buy.
Holographic this and that for what the last 15 years, and no product to date that is worth anything? Duke Nukem Forever will hit the shelves before this "just around the corner" tech ever will.
Optical media is garbage and always has been and is an overly fragile way to store data. It's only redeeming feature is once the discs get bellow $1 they effectively become disposeable.
In another year or so, flash chips will reach a price point that'll make them a cost effective alternative for buying movies on DVD's, they've already reached that point for music CD's.
Once the industry notices that, and gets over their DRM OCD, I say good riddance to optical media.
"flash chips will reach a price point that'll make them a cost effective alternative for buying movies on DVD's"
over $50 for a 1gig flash card vs $1 for a 4.2gig dvdr. unless you know something none of us knows, i highly doubt it'll happen in the next year, or ever.
I have no idea where you buy your flash cards, but you're getting ripped off. You can buy them for under $10 on ebay, and they're still dropping in price.
A company called Constellation 3D developed "Fluorescent Multilayer" disks about 6 or 7 years ago. They even had a working prototype if I recall correctly. Followed the story for a while and then the company went bankrupt due to an investor pulling out (mugs!)
Even back then they said they would produce first gen products of 120GB.
There's even a WIKI history......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellation_3D [wikipedia.org]
Surely we should have moved away from a spinning disk by now!
Good! Now let's make two incompatible standards out of it, start a formats war, and sell the same old films to the same old people again, in both formats if possible.
Interesting....NOT a qoute from wiki is that it will improve piracy protecion "HD-DMD enables dramatic improvements in piracy protection, by taking advantage of the multiple layers of information."
They still never learn, what was made by man shall be cracked by man.
Seriously though, they have been talking about huge storage disks since we discovered round plastic circles. Yeah, they've been getting higher data densities, but if you look at the progression of other storage formats (especially hard drives) optical is just not keeping up. By the time we get 500Gb disks, they'll sound to us much like yesteryear's 40Gb disks sound to us now compared to our 500+Gb hard drives.
Holographic Memories; Scientific American, November 1995, by Psaltis & Mok
It does make some sense to spin a disk rather than reorient the beam. But a solid crystal holographic storage device not only has lots of locations within itself to store collections of data, but can also be turned on a turntable and have the beam attack it from different directions, storing more data in the same place but at a different angle.
3D holographic storage design has another benefit -- it is self-searching via "reverse" holography. You shine a laser off a target and let it reflect to the memory, and out comes as many copies of the reference beam as their are stored data sets (with a realistic situation of most dissimilar results being buried in noise). Each beam is proportional to the strength of the reference beam according to the similarity of the dataset it came from. You can pick the strongest if you want to find the closest match, or you can statistically test the range of beam strengths to check for uniqueness of the target, or any number of things. The search process is virtually instantaneous, the speed of getting the result limited only by the speed of the measuring and calculating processes.
by Anonymous Coward
on Sunday July 08 2007, @07:34AM (#19788453)
Microholography Could Lead to 999 TB Discs --- well, it could. I'm willing to say, Microholography Could Lead to 999,999,999,999,999,999 TB Discs. All of these statements are true, yet meaningless.
A frozen pig could fly out of the poster's arse too. well, it could happen, right?
What do you suppose would happen... (Score:5, Funny)
Easy backups (Score:5, Insightful)
Not very easy to scratch all the disks at the same time if one is in your office, another in your car and the other at your cousin's place.
Parent
Re:What do you suppose would happen... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:What do you suppose would happen... (Score:5, Interesting)
Something you might find interesting anyway.
Parent
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. (Score:3, Insightful)
If only there were a DVD format writable/readable with consumer-grade drives that had multiple redundant TOCs.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
you would thing that with the technology of Glasses with scratch resistant coatings they would add that to this CD/DVD type
Not that the scratch resistant coating on my glasses help that much... most minor scratches on media doesnt affect it's readability (unless it is on the top/label surface). Major scratches on the bottom that affect media readability wont be prevented with the anti-scratch technology used on glasses.
The better idea would be a better coating on the label side, or like on some old CDs, a second layer over the media substrate layer. I still have some old CDs that had a second plastic layer - thus embedding t
Not again. (Score:5, Insightful)
Can someone already remove all the moving (spinning) parts of my laptop? I really do not see the point of including 3 different motors in a XXI century technology.
Good point (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, you get 500Gb on one disc. So it makes a bit of sense.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not again. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Not again. (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand, at the rate available bandwidth is increasing, there is a much smaller need for portability. With a 4G mobile data network you may as well leave most of your data in a RAID array (where 'D' stands for whatever the densest cheap storage mechanism is) and stream what you need, with a few GBs of local cache. Latency is still going to be a problem, but WAN latency is still lower than optical disk latency in a lot of cases.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
At the current rate of capacity increases / price drops, I bet flash drives will overtake CD/DVD technology. By the time this tech comes to market, I'll be able to buy 500G USB thumb drives that are 100 times faster than today's thumb drives, and cost about $10.
Re:Not again. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Not again. (Score:4, Informative)
Anyways, then don't buy the product. There are notebooks that do not include a built-in optical drive. If you truly believed in a non-motor computer, you can probably get a SSD -based Toshiba ultraportable right now. The problem is that with demanding no motors, you can't expect a fast CPU or graphics processor because that would require a fan to cool them, which is another motor. So that leaves you with a 1.3GHz notebook with 32GB of "hard drive", for over $2000. At least it would look pretty cool and be very light. I think there are Panasonics without motors too.
Research-wise, it's probably not your money to spend. No one can predict what technology will prevail, and the good idea is for different groups to invest in what they are good at, and the market decides what is most desirable for what task. The optical drive will still be mainstream for a while yet, and after that, possibly remain a viable niche for much longer.
Parent
I miss minidisc (Score:5, Insightful)
I've always found DVDs/CDs too large. Yes, they make mini-cdrs and mini-dvds (I used to have a Sony CD Mavica) but they don't have the protective case the minidiscs had. Some things are just ergonomically right, and I regret that we didn't go a little further in that direction.
Re:I miss minidisc (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have no data handy about it, but I'm pretty sure the same practice was not applied to hard disks and floppies, otherwise we'd be still saving data to punchcards.
They DID make data-MD (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:I miss minidisc (Score:5, Informative)
- The drives were expensive, and were never included in laptop (where they would have been ideal for backup and data transfer).
- They charged a premium for 'data' disks, even though the music disks also stored digital data, and were identical in every way except for a flag allowing the MD-Data drive to use them.
- They didn't allow the drive to read or write music. CD-ROM drives could play your music through your PC speakers, MD-Data drives couldn't.
The number of Sony products that have failed due to bad management make me wonder if anyone actually owns Sony shares. If I'd owned any in the '80s or '90s I'd have been calling loudly for the board to replace the management.Parent
Could be the next minidisc (Score:3, Insightful)
I blows me away how Sony missed out on the opportunity to use the MD format for data storage. It could have been the perfect 3 1/2 floppy drive replacement. How aggravating that they wasted the chance!
500GB is a LOT of data. Great for backups, perhaps for storing raw video footage and so on, but hard to justify for distributing data or for sneakernet uses.
A minidisc equivalent would be what, 100GB or so? That is a very viable proposition. Credit card sized discs would be quite popular too. Solid state equivalence is a long way off.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:I miss minidisc (Score:5, Informative)
Penchant.
(I'm willing to let the apostrophe error slide.)
</pedant>
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Do we really have to take spinning optical discs to new levels? I think industry should conce
Plus (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry.
DVD with more megas? Profit! (Score:2, Insightful)
1. Microholograph?
2. 500 Gb DVDs!?
2.
3. Profit!
New video format coming... (Score:3, Insightful)
Data. (Score:3, Insightful)
I said it... (Score:3, Insightful)
The cutting edge of optical disks are HD-DVDs als BR-Discs with up to 50 Gigs, but even todays
harddisks can store an entire terabyte of data. At the beginning one or two CD-Rs where able to
store the content of a common harddisk, today you would need dozens of expensive BR-Discs to
backup all that stuff. A holographic storage system with 500 Gigs or more should be the past,
not the future. The industry failed at this point. They try to sell us an old, but badly advanced
technology from yesterday.
I hope this is chance for Newcomers. New smaller companies with good and really innovative
products. But my fear is that the power in public relations of the present giants of the market
will prevent it. Wouldn't be the first time that bad technology wins the race.
Re: (Score:2)
No it won't (Score:4, Insightful)
Can you say fucking YAWN (Score:3, Insightful)
Optical media is garbage and always has been and is an overly fragile way to store data. It's only redeeming feature is once the discs get bellow $1 they effectively become disposeable.
In another year or so, flash chips will reach a price point that'll make them a cost effective alternative for buying movies on DVD's, they've already reached that point for music CD's.
Once the industry notices that, and gets over their DRM OCD, I say good riddance to optical media.
Re: (Score:2)
over $50 for a 1gig flash card vs $1 for a 4.2gig dvdr. unless you know something none of us knows, i highly doubt it'll happen in the next year, or ever.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Newegg.com
1 gig Kingston micro SD, about the size of your pinky finger nail $8
2 gig SD $15
4 gig SD $34
8 gig SD chip $65
16 gig CF $120
Those are retail prices right now. So some time next year sounds about right.
Strong feeling of deja vu here (Score:2, Interesting)
Next steps (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
DMD and Piracy (Score:2, Interesting)
a qoute from wiki is that it will improve piracy protecion
"HD-DMD enables dramatic improvements in piracy protection, by taking advantage of the multiple layers of information."
They still never learn, what was made by man shall be cracked by man.
Re: (Score:2)
New disks... (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously though, they have been talking about huge storage disks since we discovered round plastic circles. Yeah, they've been getting higher data densities, but if you look at the progression of other storage formats (especially hard drives) optical is just not keeping up. By the time we get 500Gb disks, they'll sound to us much like yesteryear's 40Gb disks sound to us now compared to our 500+Gb hard drives.
You can already *BUY* 300GB discs (Score:4, Informative)
They cost [inphase-tech.com] 18K for the drive and $300 for the discs.
They are expensive now, but when they drop they will make it worthwhile.
All of the Simpsons, the Complete Bach, the complete Mozart, the complete Beethoven all together on one disc.
Re: (Score:2)
Yet more deja vu all over again again (Score:5, Interesting)
It does make some sense to spin a disk rather than reorient the beam. But a solid crystal holographic storage device not only has lots of locations within itself to store collections of data, but can also be turned on a turntable and have the beam attack it from different directions, storing more data in the same place but at a different angle.
3D holographic storage design has another benefit -- it is self-searching via "reverse" holography. You shine a laser off a target and let it reflect to the memory, and out comes as many copies of the reference beam as their are stored data sets (with a realistic situation of most dissimilar results being buried in noise). Each beam is proportional to the strength of the reference beam according to the similarity of the dataset it came from. You can pick the strongest if you want to find the closest match, or you can statistically test the range of beam strengths to check for uniqueness of the target, or any number of things. The search process is virtually instantaneous, the speed of getting the result limited only by the speed of the measuring and calculating processes.
Microholography Could Lead to 999 TB Discs (Score:3, Funny)
I'm willing to say, Microholography Could Lead to 999,999,999,999,999,999 TB Discs. All of these statements are true, yet meaningless.
A frozen pig could fly out of the poster's arse too. well, it could happen, right?
Mod me troll, please.
AH HA! (Score:2, Funny)
One problem... BANDWIDTH! (Score:3, Insightful)