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Comments: 575 + - Your Rights Online: Our ATM Is Broken, Go To Jail on Sunday July 29 2007, @06:08PM
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money
Actually, I do RTFA writes "This community recently discussed possible criminal prosecution for people who took advantage of faulty slot machine software. At the time, many here drew an analogy to a hypothetical ATM that dispensed too much money. Well, apparently, that too may result in criminal charges. Although they suspect that someone may have tampered with the ATM, they are considering charging anyone who got extra money from it." Here is an editorial musing on the morality of such unexpected windfalls.
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Bank error in your favor! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bank error in your favor! (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Bank error in your favor! (Score:5, Informative)
You should report the incident immediately to the bank and the IRS. Otherwise, they will screw you to the wall for money laundering.
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Re:Bank error in your favor! (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Bank error in your favor! (Score:4, Informative)
The whole point of my post was that no Federally significant flags go up until you break the six nines barrier.
Most banks give not a shit (and will actively avoid caring) if you serially deposit $9899.47 every night at 8:53 p.m. Nor do they have to report it to anyone.
However - if you start depositing $10,000.00 once a year, everyone starts paying attention to what you are doing, provided you weren't under suspicion already. It's relatively easy to get a warrant to monitor an account, but regular biweekly deposits just short of $10k don't raise an alarm. Otherwise, most of Silicon Valley's senior marketing folks would be under the Federal gun.
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Re:I would be worried if I was you: (Score:5, Funny)
But it was more than 15 years ago, so I'm not that worried. Besides, they would go after my son, wouldn't they?
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Re:I would be worried if I was you: (Score:5, Funny)
I am so glad you are not my dad.
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you sure? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Bank error in your favor! (Score:5, Insightful)
So here is the issue. They can bankrupt me with no significant repercussion, and don't even have to make an effort to correct the mistake unless I beg them to do so, but I have to immediately report any mistakes they make. Now, if I could claim treble damages for any mistake the bank made, and double digit damage for any mistake that was not fixed 24 hour after a report, then perhaps I could agree to civil prosecution for taking advantage of a defective machine.
Breaking a machine, or in this case taking advantage as a broken machine is criminal activity. But unless I can prosecute the CEO of bank for criminal negligence when I have no money for week due to the firms mistake, then I don't see how the bank should charge me for criminal activity when their machines give me $400 instead of $100. At most, like they do when they screwed me over, I should asked to give the money back, and perhaps, if necessary,pay a small fine. Note, however, that the bank does not offer to pay me for my inconvenience.
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I see complete symetry ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The first time is an accident and you should not go to jail. However, if you continue asking for $100 then you are knowingly comitting a crime and should go to jail. I expect that the people to be prosecuted are those who engaged in the latter.
They can bankrupt me with no significant repercussion
You can sue them. And if the CEO knowingly repeatedly "improperly credits a bad check" he can go to jail to. Things seem perfectly symetrical to me. Either compare one accident to one accident or repeated abuse to repeated abuse, not one accident to repeated abuse.
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It's not that lopsided (Score:4, Informative)
First of all, IANAL, so take this just as someone searching Wikipedia for you, with the usual caveats that means. I say that because I'll take a bit of a legal definitions detour, but that's not really that necessary to illustrate the _moral_ point I'm making, so feel free to skip it if you want to.
The key element in any conviction in the western law system is the "Mens Rea", or "evil intent". (Well, literally "evil mind".) There are various degrees of it, ranging from premeditation (you actually planned ahead to do harm) to negligence (a reasonable person of average intelligence should have seen how an otherwise well meant plan could go wrong and harm someone.) "Criminal negligence" is somewhat a misnomer, in that it's usually not criminally punished, unless it was "gross negligence", meaning it involved "wanton disregard for human life". I.e., unless an ATM was dangling from the ceiling and fell on you, it won't qualify as such.
You'll probably have no case at all, even civil, unless it's the previous degree, namely "Willful blindness". I.e., someone had more than ample warnings that something can go bad, or it was blindingly obvious that it will cause harm, but they choose to pretend the problem doesn't exist.
Why I took that legal definitions detour is because it codifies the basic underlying moral idea: was it deliberate? Did that person _intend_ to do something wrong? Did they _know_ they did something wrong? Did they do anything to rectify the problem _if_ they became aware of it?
(Also, I don't know about the USA, but in Europe we have this clause that you can't keep an undeserved gain, even if it was an error. E.g., if you transferred some money to the wrong account by mistake, even if the recipient didn't know about it, they still have to give you your money back. That's another codifying a basic moral idea: money gotten by someone's error aren't yours to keep.)
And in that aspect, the bank doesn't seem guilty at all to me, and the situation isn't as equivalent as you paint it. Sorry.
1. The bank certainly didn't intend to rip you off there, and they _do_ correct it when they become aware of the problem.
1.a. I can assure you (well, second hand, because I have friends who worked for banks) that banking software is among the most tested and reviewed software ever made, ranking up there with the stuff they run in airplane control systems. Banks not only are more carefully monitored by the government, but also live by their reputation and face bigger money problems. Noone wants software who makes gross mistakes. And not just for little fish like you and me, but they also deal with massive corporate funds. Software which gets a brain-fart for a $100 transaction, well, you can see the problems it could cause when it does a $100,000,000 transfer for a takeover.
Most of the problems involving banks are human errors, like an absent-minded dolt putting a pack of $100 notes in the $10 tray of the ATM. And even those are very rare, actually.
1.b. At any rate, they _do_ fix the problem when they aware of it, and even offer assistance for your own problems, like when you entered the wrong sum or destination account. (As a personal anecdote, they sure have been nice and helpful when I typoed the sum I transferred to my insurance... by omitting the decimal point.)
And to get back to that moral point, you can't fault them for not automatically fixing something they don't even know about. So until you go tell them about it, wtf do you expect? Telepathy? By your own tale, you needed exactly _one_ trip to the bank to solve it, which doesn't seem that tragic.
2. By comparison the folks ripping off an ATMs and the like are not in the same category at all. You do count the money you get from the ATM, don't you? So you'd _know_ something went wrong. Plus there are cases where it's been deliberate by any reckoning. There are people who went back and took
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Re:Bank error in your favor! (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Bank error in your favor! (Score:4, Interesting)
Plugging an ATM in isn't a criminal offense.
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Employers (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, and you're wrong... as usual (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Ever read a direct deposit signup form? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Ever read a direct deposit signup form? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Ever read a direct deposit signup form? (Score:5, Funny)
Good to see you didn't
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Re:Employers (Score:5, Insightful)
Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your actions. If you gave me money but you didn't intend to then why should you be be able to force me to give it back?
They made the mistake, they should suck it up and eat it. It's called taking responsibility for your actions.
Oh sorry I forget, we are talking about corporations here. They were created specifically to shirk personal responsibility.
Never mind.
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Lopsided priorities (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lopsided priorities (Score:5, Interesting)
If this happened to me while the bank was closed, which is a good percentage of the day / week, then it gets annoying. It's one thing to pop my head in and say "Excuse me, but bla-bla-bla" but the only time I'm free when the bank is open is Thursday nights (for 1 hour) and Saturdays. So it's a real hassle to:
- remember about it the next day
- wait until I have the extra time to call from my job (since there isn't a branch near my work)
- lookup the number
- get past the annoying automated touch-tone-service
- speak to a manager
- etc
But I guess if I didn't do all of that, then it's my fault they screwed up.Parent
Re:Lopsided priorities (Score:5, Interesting)
Cost benefit analysis. Same tool the company uses for decision making. If the ATM shorts me, I decide if the amount shorted is worth my time and hassle to correct. If not, I eat the loss as a cost of doing business. If the ATM gives me too much cash, I'll be a nice guy and tell them if they're open. If they're closed, I'm not going to derail my whole day so I can pay them back money that should never have been given to me by the machine *they're* responsible for (and insured on). Cost of doing business.
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Re:Broken argument (Score:5, Insightful)
Since ATMs are opaque and you cannot see the contents of the money bins until you have taken money out, you have to do the "crime" before you can know that the ATM is misconfigured. Thus you are already a criminal. That doesn't make sense. Crime has to have an element of intent. If your only intent was to withdraw money owned by you from your own account, clearly no wrongdoing was intended.
But going back for seconds, after having noticed the mistake... now you're talking criminal intent.
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Re:Broken argument (Score:5, Insightful)
$20 at a convenience store in a good neighbourhood during the day, I'd certainly count the cash.
A large withdrawal at a bank-run ATM at midnight downtown, I would trust the bank rather then show the world just how much cash I have in my pocket.
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Re:Nonsense! (Score:4, Informative)
Almost every state places absolutely no burden on anyone to help anyone else, unless they have a pre-existing duty (e.g. you're their caretaker, parent, etc.).
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Re:Nonsense! (Score:5, Insightful)
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They're pretty stupid.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
So, tell me, why should I extend the bank the same courtesy when it's in my favor?
Re:They're pretty stupid.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Because the bank has more money than you do, and therefore it is more powerful and plays by different rules.
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Isn't it interesting that (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Isn't it interesting that (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as you ignore that rather simple fact, then, yes, you have a point. People should pay their bills before the due date.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Isn't it interesting that (Score:5, Interesting)
So yes, banks do take care of your customers. If yours doesn't, why are you still banking there?
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Bug Abuse (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, just because you were not the one who hacked the thing, doesn't give you the right to exploit the flow. It's like stealing stuff from a shop because the window was broken by someone else.
Accidents do happen, and it should be the burden of the prosecution to prove the defendant knew of the exploit, and not vice versa, but if you see someone withdrawing 1 grand (max daily limit) from a machine that happens to give out $20s instead of $5s (especially if person never previously withdrew such large amounts), and of course the person conveniently "forgot" to check the amount he got, then you got a pretty good circumstantial case of malicious intent, and then the defendant better have some good justification for these actions.
This happened during 9-11 (Score:5, Interesting)
FEMA disbursed cash with low identity proof threshholds because the assumption was many people lost their IDs during the disaster. This was abused (and mocked in the media). FEMA is trying to collect the cash, but many of the thieves dont have much. Its a dilemma: damned if you are too tight with aid; damned if you are too loose.
ATM screw up (Score:5, Interesting)
When I came out, he asked if the same thing had happened to me and I said yes. We both left and went about our ways.
An article showed up in the news paper that had explained that a programming up date that had been updated that day had caused the machine to dispense double your withdrawal. In turn, the bank would withdraw the money from your account for the additional money that was dispensed.
I would think that they should eat it as it was their mistake (they have insurance), but the other side of it is that I don't think I should go to jail for some guys programming error.
Re:ATM screw up (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:ATM screw up (Score:5, Insightful)
"Oh, your car broke down? So effing what? I have to get home and watch Simpsons, so I won't stop for you."
"Oh, you have extra bills to pay? Sorry about your luck. I'm going to leave without telling you that I dented your car door."
"Oh, you say you need at least $11/hour to live? Tough crap. I'm going to shoplift from your little store anyway."
"Oh, you're already just skimming your bills? Tough crap. We want this big construction project in our state, and it's too expensive to be worth it, so we want our representative to push for the federal government to pay for it instead, spreading the cost out over everyone else."
The world is full of people taking advantage of each other. It's easy to point the finger at Big Business, but it pays to remember that Big Business is run by people. We get through life in a world full of assholes by having laws that protect us from those that take things too far. The law doesn't care whether or not you like someone. It cares that you're taking something that does not belong to you, and refusing to give it back.
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Just debit the dang accounts! (Score:5, Insightful)
The bank knows who they are.
Why don't they just debit their accounts the correct amounts and forget about it?
How much of an error before we must report it? (Score:5, Interesting)
It just seems to raise too many questions.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:How much of an error before we must report it? (Score:4, Interesting)
But here, the banks are just saying oops this isn't what we wanted. *yoink* and out of your account comes the money. THAT I don't think should be legal. They have the right to dispute it, but the money that remains in your account is not their properlty and they do not have the right to dip into it anytime they feel they were cheated. A very similar situation happens with employers and paychecks. If I drop an LCD panel while moving it at work, that was a $2000 unit I just broke. The company does NOT have the right to just lift that amount out of my next paycheck. If they want that $2000 they are going to have to take it out of me some other way. That money in my paycheck is not open for grabs simply because it's still in their hands. (and that is the basis of my argument) I own it, they just haven't handed it over yet, and they have no right to dip into it to cover a debt between us. They are treating my bank account balance like "collateral" and I don't believe they have the legal right to do so.
f my neighbor asked if he could store his car in my garage and I let him, and a day later his wife hits my wife's parked car in the driveway, and they refuse to pay me the $800 to fix my wife's car, I don't have any right to refuse to give his car back. Just because it's in my hands doesn't make it fair game to settle a debt forcibly. The banks are treating your account balance the same way.
Of course all this can go right out the window if there is some signed pre-arranged agreement. I may have signed something at work that gives them permission to garnish my wages if I cause them above some fixed financial loss, and by the same token the bank customers may have signed or somehow surrendered the same rights such that any bank error can be corrected by the bank by debiting your account. But I don't recall signing something like that.
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What if a cashier messes up? (Score:4, Insightful)
Your groceries come to $7 something, you hand her a $10, she gives you $12 something (ie. change for a $20). What do you do? I've seen two reactions to this: what I've seen my parents' do... I tell her I only gave her a $10 and worked it out. Did that in front of a friend and no amount of reasoning seems to stop his whining:
him: "You idiot! You could have had $10 bucks."
me: "It's not screwing the man... she's responsible for her till."
him: "It's like she dropped it on the street and you found it."
me: "Not even close... it's like I SAW her drop it and have the chance to return it."
Aannnnd... end scene. I seriously could not understand his reasoning and he couldn't understand mine.
Although, I have to admit, if something rings up lower than it's real price and the cashier wont get screwed, I'll probably not say anything.
Anyone else?
Morality vs. Legality (Score:5, Interesting)
The face-to-face equivalent of this is: you purchase a $5 item. You hand the clerk a $20 bill, He/she proceeds to give you three 20's in change instead of 3 5's. If you choose to say nothing and keep the money, then (1)is that "wrong," and (2)is that theft?
For the most part, honesty and fair play normally demands that you point out the error. After all, anyone can make a mistake when distracted, and the bottom line is that money will come out of the (probably very poorly paid) employee's pocket when the register doesn't balance at the end of the day. For me, I would be honest most of the time, but it depends on how I've been treated in the course of the transaction. For example, once at a Wal-Mart the clerk clearly rang the purchase up wrong, and gave me about $10 too much in change. When I politely tried to point that out to her, she got very huffy and defensive and insisted that I didn't know what I was talking about and that she did not make such mistakes. Needless to say, I pocketed THAT Hamilton. But is that "theft?" The possibility never occurred to me, and I've never heard of anyone being arrested for getting too much change and not returning it.
OFFS (Score:3, Insightful)
I wonder if Diebold made the ATM? (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe they got some of their voting machine code in there by mistake.
if (Republican)
{
Total += 20;
}
Moral Solution? (Score:4, Interesting)
For example when getting too much (or too little) change returned I'll point it out and then it gets fixed right away. However as a grad student we had a really terrible company running the pay phone in our student hostel who would take ages to fix problems and never refunded money when the phone swallowed money without giving credit. So when burglars broke open the cash box below the phone we informed the company and true to form it took them over a week to send anyone to fix it. Lets just say that in that time we all more than recouped the cost of all the money it had swallowed previously (it was in the UK and we had an American, Italian, Australian and Malaysian in the hostel in the time before really cheap international calling!).
The nice thing was that because we had informed the company of the break in and damage in advance when they tried to recoup the missing money from the college they (and us) were covered legally (they refused to respond in a timely manner and therefore were liable). The other great thing about this was that afterwards response times on problems dropped to same/next day!
So does this count as completely moral behaviour? Given that the same company had screwed us in the past by not refunding money swallowed by the machine, that we did inform them of the issue beforehand and that I was not one of the people making long, expensive international phone calls I did not have a problem with it. Indeed I think it was a rather good example of poetic justice.
From Experience (Score:5, Interesting)
- Any large cash transaction needs to be reported. I believe the amount is $10,000. You can deposit checks that are larger than this amount, and they do not need to be reported. There should be no way around this, even if you make 2 separate deposits at two different times on the same business day. A total $10,000/min limit exists for this report. And for those of you wondering, this isn't an uncommon event in a bank that works with businesses primarily.
- All money is accounted for, and double checked. So if you "deposit" more money than you were supposed to, its actually really easy to find out who's it is at the end of the day. Believe it or not, it is also easy when the CSR is short to find out who owes the money. Once the error is found, it is fixed immediately by debiting or crediting your account.
- There is nothing you can't do in a bank. If you have a check to deposit, and they want to put a 1 part or multiple part hold, don't be afraid to ask them to release more of the money right away or sooner. Oh wait that has nothing to do with this, but is still helpful. Always talk calmly and don't get upset!! The bank can almost always help you out.
- Accepting deposits has never been a problem, and even though bank of america sucks, and might require some form of ID, if i recall correctly, as long as they get "A" form of id, they'll take the deposit. I have done this for a friend many years ago, and they took my drivers license as the ID.
- Withdrawing money is a different story all together. When i worked on the CSR side, we were required to contact the customers home branch and request a fax of their signature card. That card is exactly what it sounds like, a card with their signature, but with a date and a bit of other useless info. The customer always has to sign a withdrawal slip or a check to cash on the spot, so you have proof of their signature. You compare that signature to the signature cards and if it's a match or close enough, they get their cash. When customers change their signature, and this is admitted on their behalf, then they are given a chance to write out their old signature. If the signature was close, then we'd look at the other info on the card to try to prove that it really is the account owner.
- With cards having magnetic stripes now, this is much safer, as long as no one has your PIN. But the signature above part is still important in case the ATM eats your card or it's lost/stolen. So make sure you take care when signing for a new bank account.
- ATMs are stocked with a LOT of cash at some point of the day, sometimes multiple times. Although i never really got to get a GOOD look at the machines, i was assured by everyone and the techs who went out to service them that "they don't make mistakes." Now, check my signature
- When an ATM dispenses money and it doesn't add up when the machines are checked, you pull up the records of it's transactions. And like i said before, and difference is easily found. In the cases that i've been aware of where large sums of money were paid out once or repeatedly, their cameras have come into play to help identify the end user. Regardless, the card holder is responsible. If the card was stolen, used and an extra $3,000 paid out, the account holder is responsible. That is why you MUST call and report your lost/stolen card immediately!
- If you are even short changed at an ATM, make sure to report it immediately to the branch if they are operating under normal business hours. If they are closed, call it in immediately and find out what you are required to do. Under normal circumstances you will get your money either through credit to your account or cash on the spot.
- One guy on
Re:The bigger question these articles bring up (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:The bigger question these articles bring up (Score:5, Funny)
ATM is not a truck. It's a series of pneumatic tubes carrying cans of information (53 bytes each).
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