Coping Strategies for Women in IT 648
Ian Lamont writes "Female workers are losing ground in the IT profession, reports Computerworld, citing statistics which show a sharp drop in the number of female CS grads since the 1980s, and a decline in the percentage of women in the IT profession since 2001. According to the article, causes include pervasive stereotypes and the locker-room atmosphere found in some IT shops — attitudes which some readers may recognize from the comments in a Slashdot thread last week. The IT professionals interviewed in the Computerworld article discuss a variety of strategies for coping. They range from trying to 'out-boy the boys' to watching what you say, as one Sun Microsystems executive describes:'It's not unusual to be the only woman at a meeting, she says, and because of that, there's often a tendency to remain silent unless you think you have something really remarkable to say. "As one member of a small group, you feel you have no right to be mediocre ... You're not just representing yourself; you're representing [females] with a capital F.'"
Been there, seen that... (Score:5, Insightful)
I say we just give any and all female hires shiny new Sig sidearms with a license to shoot anyone (especially upper management) that harasses them. Seriously though, as one who has had to instigate actions against individuals senior to myself for sexual harassment of colleagues, the issue of unwelcome environments is well known. Fortunately, things are getting progressively better as I have been seeing an uptick in the number of seriously qualified individuals who happen to be women among the alpha users of the IT community (PhD candidates in Computer Science). But in the interim, I would discourage women from feeling that they have to "out-boy the boys" as that behavior simply compounds the problem and makes legal issues more complex leading to the likelihood that if problems do arise, everybody gets fired. Besides, the type of person that would engage in locker-room behavior may in fact be encouraged by a woman stooping to that level. I would also encourage women to be as vocal as necessary in meetings and not reserve comments for those times when you think that what you say is representative of genius. Just do your job, be professional, ask questions when necessary and remember that you do not have to tolerate any bullshit that your male colleagues do not have to endure.
Don't forget.. (Score:5, Insightful)
No... women are leaving IT in droves because they're taking one look at what kind of career path they can look forward to and saying, "Screw this".
So few Females in IT (Score:1, Insightful)
It's a good profession for those who obviously drank too much in College, but don't expect to get anywhere.
Sometimes it is not worth it (Score:1, Insightful)
Different (Score:5, Insightful)
Won't somebody think of the childr...err...women!
Maybe, just maybe, the different genders gravitate to the fields that they like. Or, gasp, are suited for.
That's not to say that women aren't suited for the IT field. Men and women are different, even if the politically correct people don't want you to believe it. So it makes sense that they just might be predisposed to liking different things...including professions.
But forget that, let's just force the different genders into the professions that politically correct-driven math says that they should be, and not what they want to be in.
Stereotypes (Score:4, Insightful)
Just as a side note; for females who are reading - want to know how to get on with your male collegues - take the piss, have fun, take the piss out of yourself, go out to the pub and drink with the boys - and maybe realise that if you present yourself as an equal rather than a 'weak and frail women' you might actually get included as 'one of the boys'. Socialising is the key.
I mean, I've worked in female dominated jobs, and believe me - females do not make it easy for males to merge themselves into the company culture. Heck, they're not even nice to their own sex! my sister was in a very similar situation - her rule, never work with females. This is a female who can't stand working with females. I think that speaks volumes.
When there are millions of females 'getting on' in male dominated situations, I think those who do complain have no legs to stand on. Like I've said, I've worked in male dominated jobs, and those females who do knuckle down and work - socialise and act like 'one of the boys' actually enjoy themselves.
Don't try to 'feminise' the work place - realise that its rome, and its up to you 'to do as the romans do'
"out boy the boys": bad idea (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:More than just The Chubb Corp. (Score:4, Insightful)
The outlook may be part of the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
"you're representing [females] with a capital F"
Then I'd say she has an issue. My personal experience of working with a lot of women (and yes, even more men) is that if people of either gender behave in a straightforward way, they'll be treated by the vast majority of their co-workers in an appropriate manner.
If someone starts to think they're representing more than themselves, maybe they need to look at their own self-image.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Who told you that it's bullshit that male colleagues don't have to endure?
I recall reading somewhere that as workplace equalty increases, men have come to see women as peers, and what that implies is that they are placed in a level game where the sorts of abuse that men perform on other men are being experienced by women. Women have more at stake now than they ever did, and what that means is that your average office bastard sees them as potential threats to their activities.
At my workplace we have several women working in IT positions. They are all treated very well; the locker-room mentality only happens in male-only subgroups. The one reason why I think that there's not as many women as there could be is becase the job is simply not rewarding to most female personality types. I don't know how many want or can stand to be on-call, or handle high-stree meetings with enraged customers who want to see their servers working NOW. Not to say that women can't handle stress, just saying that the stress that emanates from an IT environment may not be the one they can handle best.
If your biggest employment issue with females is that other employees treat them like crap, then you've either have the problem of asshole male employees (happens, but then again I wonder how the hell you're managing to have a decent IT infrastructure with those people), or submissive females, who are not few, and who end up meeting the same fat as submissive males.
Re:Don't forget.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Can we please put this one to rest? If you have a job that expects you to put in ridiculous hours, you have a crap job. Period. Any job that demands that you sacrifice your life for the sake of some company in which you have no stake is not sustainable. You will burn out and quit -- or worse, you will burn out, start passive-aggressively acting out, and get fired. IT geeks need to stop listing their long hours as a point of pride. Willingly putting yourself on the burnout track does not make you a superhero. Rather, it makes your life hell, and it makes every one of your coworkers' lives hell because you set unrealistic expectations and fail to voice your genuine employment concerns to management.
kids (Score:4, Insightful)
I prefer to have women bosses and administrators.
The largest problem I've seen for women is having families because they are stuck with bearing the kids -- that's when women get taken out of the loop. There are always exceptions but often the women -- having born the kids -- often become comparatively more family-oriented than the man who will keep pushing through the industry and stay on top of things. The IT business moves fast. Having a kid can cause you to effectively be taken out of the race. No matter how much it sucks I've seen it happen a lot.
The biological clock factor doesn't help either because you have a limited time, often which could be peak career time, to have kids.
*yawn* (Score:1, Insightful)
The IT professionals interviewed in the Computerworld article discuss a variety of strategies for coping.
Typical female stuff.. get together and share tips for "coping". Are we (successful men AND women) supposed to feel sorry for them? Wanna know my strategy for "coping"? I double down, dominate the problem, improve myself, and come out kicking ass. It never occurred to me that I should complain or change the system. I can only change myself, right?
They range from trying to 'out-boy the boys' to watching what you say, as one Sun Microsystems executive describes:'It's not unusual to be the only woman at a meeting, she says, and because of that, there's often a tendency to remain silent unless you think you have something really remarkable to say. "As one member of a small group, you feel you have no right to be mediocre ... You're not just representing yourself; you're representing [females] with a capital F.'
People like this piss me off. (Some men do it too.) You're NOT representing all females, don't PUT YOURSELF in that role. Maybe other people think that, but WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK? Do your job!
If you have something to say in a meeting, SAY IT.
Another thing that pisses me off: if you want a raise ASK FOR ONE. Don't just assume that you'll get one, and then complain that you didn't.
And hey guess what. Half the guys in the meeting are ALSO WATCHING WHAT THEY SAY. Guess why!
I guess what it comes down to is this: do you think the workplace is like a "locker room" because work is COMPETITIVE, or because of the MEN? What is the correlation? Hmmmmmmmmmm...
I know plenty of successful women (in business, as mothers, and as people in general). They don't whine about this stuff. My philosophy: if at least one person can achieve the goal you want achieve, YOU CAN TOO.
Learn to deal with Nerds (Score:4, Insightful)
If you want to increase the number of Women in IT I suggest changing your focus. Rather than looking to colleges, try recruiting grade school teachers. They're used to dealing with people who have underdeveloped social skills. At a previous job we had 2 former school teachers they were both able to deal.
Does it go both ways? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe being the odd man out back then has made me more tolerant today. Or maybe not. Who am I to say?
Anyway, this does not make IT special; it's true in any field with an uneven sex ratio. They're just being sensationalist because they can. You don't see "Coping Strategies for Men in Archaeology" on archaeology websites.
IT != CS (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Sex harrassment lawsuits, quotas, and worse ! (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Different (Score:5, Insightful)
Now don't mod him down just because you don't agree with him. He's right, at least partially. Men and women are not only built differently, they think differently. He's absolutely, positively right. Studies show that men are more linear thinkers while women tend to think in circular patterns. Men are more big-picture thinkers, women pay more attention to detail.
This is not wrong. This is 100% right.
Now, are women less interested in IT? I doubt it. I personally know many women in the IT field, including many that are in it because they have always had a sincere interest in IT. I've also known several women who said they'd be interested in IT, if only they knew more about computers.
The fact is that girls and young women are not encouraged to pursue IT or computer science, so they don't. Career women are pointed towards administrative, HR, or other areas where women dominate. This isn't just due to interest, it's due to societal pressure on them to not learn tech skills because appearing too geeky would make them unattractive or get them to be socially shunned.
The reasons women go into IT (Score:3, Insightful)
Shouldn't meeting be like this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Shouldn't meeting be like this? Otherwise they go on for hours and hours without much being accomplished. Also, if you think your corp hired someone mediocre when they hired you, you really got more to worry about...
Re:Stereotypes (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Insecurity and incompetence (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:More than just The Chubb Corp. (Score:3, Insightful)
Disclaimer: There is of course a percentage that is completely and utterly sexual harassment, and it is a very bad thing. However, I am addressing the portion that is mislabeled.
Re:Don't forget.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Frankly, if you're on call 24/7 for janitor pay you're either a doormat, not very skilled or not very good at marketing yourself. Figure out which it is and try to fix it.
Re:Don't forget.. (Score:3, Insightful)
That is not true at all for nursing. Nursing schools (and their eventual customers) would love to see more males take up nursing. Males tend to be stronger than females, and nursing often requires moving heavy people and equipment around. Also, many people (males) are uncomfortable with female nurses poking around their private areas and would much rather have a male nurse. For some patients it's a religious issue. All in all, there is a large demand for nurses and for male nurses in particular.
Re:Stereotypes (Score:5, Insightful)
There are two different meanings for the word "respect". Women should certainly be respected as in, not treated condescendingly, not being treated as a potential mate more than as a coworker, etc.
But "respect" as in, "I respect his/her coding skills." or "I respect the way he/she can motivate his/her underlings." must be earned, regardless of one's sex.
Re:Different (Score:5, Insightful)
My coping strategy was... (Score:5, Insightful)
You can say all the biological determinism (yeah right, men are biologically programmed to be in IT... ugh) stuff you want, the reality is there is a major social bias. Some of it is the whole environment from top to bottom, the solution isn't just to have some postercard companies hiring 20% female workers, it require a much larger shift than that, a shift in people's willingness to engage with a gender analysis. Like, even if you are "a nice guy" or you "support women in IT", maybe you have certain behaviours and ways of organizing/managing/participating that alienate women and you need to address them personally. Maybe you need to criticize your male peers when you are talking in the washroom (er. locker room) What do you expect of your women co-workers? There are lots of men who are completely incompetent in IT but manage to have full financially rewarding careers in it, is that true for women?
I don't know how to bring it about but it requires men from all levels of the workplace to be able to critique themselves and the work environment and be willing to change, not just get all confused when they see the stats. It isn't really a discussion if it's a problem, or why it's a problem. We, as women in tech, are telling you there is a major problem and there are many many eloquent papers/reports/studies/etc. that explain what that problem is and that suggest some strategies to approach it. Men can call us whiners for pointing it out, or they swallow their ego and start trying to address the issues.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a very male way of looking at something: you assume that you just have to be professional and go with the flow.
Unfortunately the workplace (esp male dominated) often runs on competition and "winning", and getting things done in a very aggressive way. I'm not saying women can't handle that, but it's not a very friendly atmosphere, and I don't even like it myself (and I'm not a woman).
The problem with this is that men and women have different styles of thinking. It's not black and white: women always do this and men do that, but in terms of solving problems women like the collaboration whereas men often see it as a means to an end. There are subtle sex differences that do make a difference. The vast majority of IT people are men.
For instance, women tend to nod more when listening to a presentation to show that they are listening, and men tend to stare more and not make any gestures. Nodding can be interpreted as agreement when it's not. Women use "yes" more as a way of indicating the want for discussion, whereas men use "yes" as a "sounds good, now I'm leaving". These differences can lead to huge misunderstandings esp when the management is mostly male and almost everyone else is too.
Add the social ineptitude of most people working in IT and it makes for a pretty damn cold and uninviting place, except for those who have similar traits.
That's perhaps due to sex differences in interests as well, so I'd guess that IT will always have more guys, but the point is to make the environment as friendly as possibly for the women that actually do want to go into any male dominated field.
The workplace is a complicated place with complicated social structures and politics. It's not jut about "I'm the boss, I say what goes".
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong, I don't support being actively mean or hostile to female employees (or any other employee) or actually sexually harassing them (some boss telling them "Sleep with me or I'll fire you."). But a lot of men have had nasty experiences with women workers in the past based on a LOT less than this. This is especially worrisome for guys in the IT field, many of whom have problems with social cues and social relations IN GENERAL. No one wants to get hammered with a disciplinary letter because they simply didn't know that some women are offended by being called a "girl."
Maybe because it sucks? (Score:5, Insightful)
It could be that women, even if they are attracted to technology, see what a terrible quality of life is to be had in IT and opt out. Women don't go into IT because they are too smart to fall for it.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:2, Insightful)
But the whole "hostile environment" thing is overblown. Where I work there are numerous women in close proximity to me, and I get teased mercilously on a daily basis, full of comments such as "just like a man".
So I went home and cried and then wrote a message to slashdot....oh no, wait...I just laughed, occasionally fought back (it's a losing battle, but what the heck ), and then went on with my life.
Seriously, there may be inequities, and I'm sure there are real issues out there, but stop using this one as an excuse for women's issues in IT. It's time to look somewhere else.
-Jeff
Re:Different (Score:2, Insightful)
[sarcasm]
And men never have that problem...
[/sarcasm]
you are WRONG! IQ, Biology, toy preference, etc (Score:1, Insightful)
Many primates and mammals ahve genetic bias for toy selection. Its not society.
IQ is genetic and above IQ 125 females are scarce.
Also Alexander & Hines (2002) gave 44 vervet monkeys of each sex six toys to play with; two male-typical (a toy car and ball), two female-typical (a doll and pot) and two sex-neutral (a book and stuffed animal). Male ververts were more likely than females to engage the car and ball while females were more likely to play with the doll and pot. No difference was found in the neutral toys. Neonatal androgen exposure has been linked to play preferences in rats, rhesus monkeys, and human females, as well as vervet monkeys. HUMANS.
Because of political correct uneducated people like you, the president of harvard was FIRED for merely mentioning the fact that girls are genetically wired to play with dolls. He also cited as an example one of his daughters, who as a child was given two trucks in an effort at gender-neutral upbringing. Yet he said she named them "daddy truck" and "baby truck," as if they were dolls.
By raw percentages, the worst advanced coders are female.
Its simple biology. Read the "Bell Curve" for thousands (yes thousands) of reference citations.
The brains are different (lateralization of hemispheres). In fact from over twenty feet away, with over 95% precision anyone can trivially tell if a brain sliced in half sideways is female or male. The difference is truly visible from over twenty feet away.
Females are different. Get over it.
Re:Physical? (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's a hint: Very few people actually want to work in mines. People do so because it's a living, and only people who are physically able to handle it can and do make a career out of it. My point is that there's a difference between women not working in mines where they're physically predisposed to having a hard time and women not working at a particular desk job because their coworkers are assholes. The former makes sense and cannot be changed and the latter is an unfortunate and unnecessary loss to the economy.
Because the lifting requirement is there for a reason? That's like saying, "Math is hard, and removing math from the curriculum would give us more electrical engineers!" The people you graduate will no longer be qualified electrical engineers. If you can do the job without lifting heavy weights, the requirement shouldn't be there. If you can't do the job without lifting heavy weights, the requirement shouldn't be compromised. I don't know which of those was the case in the changing of the fire department requirements.
The more important question is, should we be concerned that part of the "job requirement" for being a woman in engineering or IT is being treated with disrespect or even outright contempt, or should we just consider it "part of the job" like getting dirty in a coal mine? Yes, there are jobs that have hard physical requirements, and no modifications to the job description will change that. The analogous problem in an air conditioned office building with comfortable chairs is a very solvable one, though. Working with people who have no clue how to treat their coworkers is not an endemic feature of the job the same way hauling rocks is a core part of what a coal miner does. Claiming otherwise is simply giving people a pass for acting inappropriately in the workplace.
Re:Insecurity and incompetence (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:My coping strategy was... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Stereotypes (Score:1, Insightful)
We do not present ourselves as 'weak and frail' women.
You may not, but there are plenty of women that do, and blame any criticism on sexism, regardless of how stupid the thing they did was to provoke the criticism. And start women-only developer groups to avoid this "confrontational" attitude. I'm sorry, but bad work should be confronted, and women, just like men, do bad work a lot of the time. If somebody can't deal with that, then they shouldn't be a developer. The same applies to men, of course, but I've never seen a man screw up then blame sexism when he gets called on it.
Now if you stand up for yourself and don't hide behind your gender, then great. But there's a hell of a lot of women out there giving you a bad name. Just like there are men out there feeding the stereotype of men talking to boobs, which you've just complained about. Don't pretend that the faux-outrage of some women doesn't exist, and I won't pretend that men ogling your breasts don't exist.
It is not our responsibility to act like one of the boys.
No, but it is your responsibility to have a productive attitude towards team-work. Do you start work at a place and start demanding that the group change to fit your needs, or do you make an effort to fit in? That's what the parent comment is getting at with the "act like one of the boys", not advocating that you act in a masculine manner. I don't think I've seen a man enter a group and expect them all to change to suit him, but not only does it happen frequently with women, but they write articles about how persecuted they are when they get the entirely sensible response of "fuck off".
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:2, Insightful)
And i still think that if a women wants to work in an IT environment, she has exactly the same chance as a male (at least here in Switzerland). But she'll usually also have the same difficulties. Obnoxious coworkers, idiot customers, etc.
And remember, in a work place only your emotional strength counts. I've never seen adult people fight during work, so there's absolutely no disadvantage for women here.
Re:Stereotypes (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure that this is unique to tech, if it really still exists and is as bad as you say it is.
For example: Have you actually been "shouted down"? If that ever happened to me, in any job that doesn't directly involve shouting, I'd be gone.
Assuming you're a secretary? Takes but a moment to correct that one. Or find a place with a semi-casual dress code and start wearing ThinkGeek shirts to work. At least then, if they're staring at your boobs, they'll also be staring at "Bow before me, for I am root."
If you want to be socially accepted in any group, you're going to have to do something.
It doesn't mean you have to "act like one of the boys." It does mean you have to loosen up, learn to take a joke (even a *gasp* dirty joke), and so on. It means you have to act like you belong.
No one gets respect automatically. You have to earn it.
And it doesn't matter whose responsibility it is. If they won't magically behave the way you want them to, then you're the one who has to change -- because at that point, if you don't change, no one will.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it just is what it is. No matter how much you whine on Slashdot, geeks are going to continue to stare at your boobs until you force them to respect your intellect, your sense of humor, your personality.
And it is possible for you to demand respect, but you do it by acting like a really and truly interesting human, and not playing the female victim all the time. You may really be a victim, but stop wallowing in it and do something about it. (And do it yourself, don't talk to the boss -- tattling is bad, no matter what social group you're in.)
I suspect that if you can make that work, you wouldn't have anything to complain about on Slashdot.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:5, Insightful)
But see? That's OK. The men have had it wrong all the time. They must once again, bend and change....to bury their natural instincts so that women can feel more comfy in a work situation.
In fact, change everything to accomidate everyone's needs....in this new PC. world. No more locker room camaraderie for men in groups, keep to yourselves, watch your language....avoid things that previously made the group function and fun.
I think I heard a really good one...that a muslim trying for a job in an American grocery store, refused to scan or handle in any way pork products. Now, I never heard the resolution of that one...did they hire a special person to come an scan pork products for him? Did they quit selling pork?
I mean, good Lord....if you want to do a job...be prepared for the environment that is there. If you work in a sewer, expect it to stink. Grow some thicker skin, and just go in and do your job.
Re:Stereotypes (Score:1, Insightful)
It's called life. It has nothing to do with your job.
It's called life. It has nothing to do with your gender.
There are explanations for why the average woman is paid less than the average man. Less time in the workforce, less likely to be taking overtime, less likely to have made personal sacrifices, less likely to have relocated, less willing to travel, less likely to have taken risks etc. It's not just because you don't have a penis.
That sounds suspiciously like a sense of entitlement.
Who cares, I thought women and men were equal? (Score:4, Insightful)
For instance, how come we aren't worried about a lack of female lion tamers? A lack of asian sports car drivers? A lack of male midwives?
If we are going to be a truly egalitarian society, we need to stop separating people out into groups based on something as silly and inconsequential as what sex organs somebody has. What's next, an article decrying the lack of green-eyed, brown-haired bellhops?
Women: You're not representing anyone but yourself. Men really don't look at one woman and judge your entire sex based on that one person. That is a misconception you have, its all in your head. Get over yourselves. Just do your job to the best of your ability. Same goes for all you "i'm being held back by my race" people. Maybe if you concentrated on your job and improving your skills, and spent less time worrying about abstract concepts like whether you are being viewed as a representative of your demographic, you'd find more people around you concentrate on your job and your skills.
Where are all the albino theatre ticket takers, anyway?!?!
Re:Feminism Confronts Technology ---- by Judy Wajc (Score:3, Insightful)
One thing I really like about IT is the refusal of most geeks to put up with this kind of navel gazing bullshit. People who're always on about "power struggles" and "ignorant of diversity" never make good programmers, because computers aren't likely to be bullied into behaving like the whipped men in their lives.
When I read "I've struggled with gender politics" what I see is "I'm a lousy programmer and people keep treating me like a lousy programmer because I'm a woman."
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Can you blame them? They are not totally without cause in that analysis when the history of women in male dominated professions is considered in a more general sense. You may be the exception, but how do they know that?
most american women... (Score:2, Insightful)
Most women in america do not know how not to be b*tchy. They have grown up where on an
average men will never say no to them for anything, even if they are act so totally stupid and wrong, just becos if the guy does not open the car door, no favours at night.
So guys keep saying yes for most part for anything that they can allow, and women grow up thinking that they are so always right and they are so special, even if she's just a minimum wage waitress as long as she's okay looking.
So, except such a woman to be a total ass when she's in a discussion where data is to be compared, and decisions to be based on facts. She will resent being told that she might not be right. ofcourse it can only be because she's a woman and the other is a man. Such people will not go far in terms of being appreciated, with their big chips on their shoulders.
see all those ads in tvs where the guy is a bumbling idiot and the woman, with a smug smile and a smirk on her face, is the 'always right'? Some women take that attitude a bit too far and think workplace is like that too.
That's mostly the problem with women and any non-kitty-party profession.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not entirely (Score:5, Insightful)
Back when the world was separated into "men's work" and "women's work", it was so because the general view was that women were not as capable as men. Those things that were classified as "men's work" from hunting to warmaking to running a business to performing surgery to studying math were seen not just as things a man should do, but as things that women were simply incapable of doing as well as a man. Whereas those things that were "women's work" were never seen as things that a man couldn't do. Men could clean and cook and knit they just wouldn't because that was "women's work" and the man should be using his superior capacities for grander pursuits like killing people from the next country over.
So a man going into a woman-dominated field has to fight against the social stigma of going outside their gender-role. A woman not only has to fight the social stigma, they also have to fight the thinking behind that stigma which is that they aren't as capable of doing "manly" things. And if you've read any slashdot threads on this kind of subject before, you can easily see that this way of thinking is alive and well.
There are of course exceptions. I think nursing was one of those areas where men were not just seen as outside their role (they should be the doctor, of course, with the subservient female nurse to assist them), but also as lacking the nurturing and compassionate instincts for the job.
I really couldn't tell you where archaeology falls into this, or why there was a predominance of women. I'm also not saying by any means that you shouldn't try to increase male enrollment or that your SMA organization is ill-conceived. I'm just saying that there is a very real and valid reason why getting women into male-dominated fields is seen as both more important and more challenging than getting men into woman-dominated fields.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sigh. It's exactly this kind of attitude that's the problem: "it's all good for me so why should I care about anyone else?". The problem is that many women (and some men) are going to be turned away from IT just because people like you don't care to make a bit of effort to accommodate others and be more cordial.
Remember, this means that potentially there are people out there that will be missing an opportunity to do something they enjoy.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:2, Insightful)
Erm. You seem to misunderstand the whole concept of a job. You get paid to do something you wouldn't do on your own.
So getting paid means you'll have to put up with some stuff you don't like. Of course it makes sense to generally choose a job with stuff that you like, as this makes it a lot easier, but you'll still have to do stuff you don't like. I enjoy most off my work, but i don't enjoy writing reports. Or dealing with some particularly difficult customers. That's why you get paid, so that you shut the fuck up and do your fucking job even if you don't like it.
Re:My wife's experience (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm a guy, and it kind of does sound like you were Hitler. Suppose both the husband and wife worked for you. Then they would have a grand total of two days a month to take care of their sick children. Suppose your employee was unmarried -- suppose her husband died in Iraq. You would be placing her at a disadvantage vs. all your other, married employees (who would have the option of balancing, the way you suggest). On the whole, your policy sounds unfair and, with the realities of our society, clearly gender-biased toward men (who are less likely to be single parents or, indeed, be expected to take care of the kids).
Children get sick. Chicken pox takes about a week to run through. No, it's not life-threatening, but it's just not appropriate to leave a six-year-old at home, alone, unsupervised, with a fever, for a week. What would you propose a parent do? Presumably you paid your employees enough to hire a babysitter for 40 hours?
Here's an idea.... (Score:3, Insightful)
A woman's brain is just as capable of making an IT-Type decision as a man's brain; let's stop pointing to one individual and going "See, she's can't do it therefore no woman can" we just look stupid.
Re:My wife's experience (Score:2, Insightful)
I understand my job will never be for most women, but that's alright for me, I have a blast at it anyway
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:2, Insightful)
For example, as young women we are usually more concerned then men about procreation and timing. We have a speedy biological clock to worry about while men have much slower clock that can continue to tick for decades after ours runs out.
The idea that women can have children at an older age today than they did decades ago is a myth. The genetic make up of the human has not changed radically in 60 to 100 thousand years. If you check the statistics for women that actually give birth to their own genetic children it starts to dip in their late 20's and drastically falls off around 33-35. These are the prime career building years, the years for earning advanced degrees, and the years that IT professionals are expected to work a lot of over-time and abuse their bodies with sleep deprivation.
In this mix something has to break. Since women can't put off their biological clock they will many times opt for a career that is more family friendly.
I work in IT and so does my husband so we have been down this path first hand. I was LUCKY. I was able to take 4 years off to start a family and then reenter, but many of my female coworkers opted to stay out and switch careers; and others tried to start a family too late believing the myth that medicine today can help get anyone pregnant and were faced with the reality that their clock ran out.
I know other women that left nursing (another stressful career) to go into IT thinking they'd have it easier, just to say "this is insane" and go back to the less stressful career of nursing.
Young women today have learned what the reality of IT is and are making their choice. My generation learned the lesson and theirs will profit from it. So until IT can come back to earth and be family friendly you won't see more women in it. Period. End of discussion.
Re:Different (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm just not even going to go into it... All I want to know is, have any of these guys for one second ever had to stop and consider what the impact of having a child will be on their career? Whether or not they have kids now, did it ever even cross their minds to wonder? Most guys I know, it's not even a blip on their radar, it's just not something that comes to mind when they think about having kids.
Re:Wow. Just wow. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Stereotypes (Score:3, Insightful)
for females who are reading - want to know how to get on with your male collegues - take the piss, have fun, take the piss out of yourself, go out to the pub and drink with the boys - and maybe realise that if you present yourself as an equal rather than a 'weak and frail women' you might actually get included as 'one of the boys'. Socialising is the key.
And here I thought it was only a problem in Korea [nytimes.com]
All right, I'll bite. Why on God's green earth should a woman need or want to be included as "one of the boys"? You're saying in so many words that it's a man's world, woman have to learn to live in it? And you don't see a problem with that? Well, I sure as hell do. Let's flip this around for a second.
In my previous job, I was the lone IT/office support worker for a six-or-seven employee non-profit. The one other man left after I was there a few months, so then I was the only man in the office. (The president of the board was also a woman.) I was also, except for the intern, the lowest on the totem-pole, in terms of both seniority and hierarchy. (Salary, too, I think.)
The gender issue came up twice. First was when the program coordinators were reviewing applications of public school teachers that wanted to be included in our service-learning program for the year. In discussion, they were giving a male applicant poor marks because he'd answered an essay question with bullet points instead of a paragraph. Even though it had nothing to do with my job, I had to point out to them that, since there weren't explicit instructions to that effect, they were applying a non-useful bias on communication style, and it just might be gender-related. Men think and communicate differently from women, with bullet points being a paradigmatic example. As far as I could tell, they took my thoughts to heart and were grateful for the input. (Unfortunately, I do not recall whether that applicant was accepted.)
The other time was when I decided to move on and we were trying to choose my replacement. I was conflicted, because it went very much against my grain not to give affirmative-action-style preference to a female candidate for an IT job, let alone to give preference to a man, while at the same time, I firmly believed that an all-female office is just as bad an idea as an all-male office. I finally decided that balance to the office was of more immediate importance than balance to the industry, and I put in my two cents in favor of a man, all other things being roughly equal. Again, as far as I could tell, they took my thoughts to heart and were grateful for the input. I'm also fairly certain that if I hadn't been there, that point would not have occurred to that particular table full of women, and they would have chosen the new hire with a mostly blind eye to gender. As it turned out, I was replaced by a man (and another man was hired as program staff after I left), and I think the flexibility and responsiveness of the enterprise is the better for it.
Men and women collaborating in an office is most emphatically not about "doing as the Romans do". If there is a weakness in your organization, it is your duty as an employee to correct it if you can, point it out to management if you can't. Failure in the organization to allow any of its human assets to express themselves naturally is definitely a weakness. Expecting a woman to act like one of the boys is such a failure, as is expecting a man to act like one of the girls.
I'm not the first to point out that men and women do, according to a large body of psychological and anthropological research, think, communicate, and behave differently, but then so many use the same breath to justify the division of labor along gender lines. That doesn't make any sense to me. If there are such material differences, why wouldn't you want them both represented in the organization? Wouldn't that just ma
Re:As a female IT Director... (Score:5, Insightful)
And, frankly, little boys are socialized to think technology=cool much more than little girls are. We are a product of our upbringing to some extent.
That is the problem. Our society encourages the girls to play with barbie, dolls, and tea pots while the boy gets lego bricks, plastic water guns, and skateboards. Until it is solved at that level, issues like this will always come up.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stereotypes (Score:2, Insightful)
I have found that women-dominated workplaces tend to be more social and group oriented, but at the same time, there is a larger sense of 'cattiness' and general nastiness: the stereotypical 'feminine' passive-aggressive, backstabbing drama. Some women don't notice it, enjoy it, or just think that's how they are expected to act. On the same hand, women can be just as neutral as men and a man need not try to include himself on a girl's night out after work.
In a sense I feel that a lot of the hostility when you have an odd man/women out in the workplace is not necessarily discriminatory, but just lack of communication or mistranslation. Not to mention certain fields are gender-dominated for perfectly rational reasons. What does that prove? Nothing we don't already know. Best to just keep a stiff upper lip and wedge yourself somewhere where you are comfortable rather than bend yourself out of shape to fit in.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course she fails to see the obvious reasons. A lot has changed since the 60s; which really got rolling in the 40s. When she saw lots of women, lots of women had been given a free pass. Accordinly, lots of women were in lots of fields; deserving or otherwise. During the 80s, women were told they can have both, a family and a career, but the free passes started disappearing. As a result fewer women were around. The women that were left were largely there because they earned it. In the 90s, more women have realized they were fed a line of crap. You can NOT have it both ways. As a result, more women have focused on families and feel a loss of opportunity for income. It's now the 2000's and women realize that if they want a family, they don't have time for a job. To boot, since WWII, when women entered the workforce in mass, inflation now requires two bread winners for the same standard of living. This has not gone unnoticed by women.
Ironically, many women who could never bad a real career option have created a movement to justify them "at-home" job while attempting to make those that do work feel guilty for neglecting their families. This new class is call "soccer moms." There has actually been several books writen on the subject. As a result, more and more women now feel guilty for wanting to work and are simply not entering the job market, let alone a career which requires significant time and dedication away from the family.
Long story short, it's VERY easy to explain why there is such a reduction of women in technical fields without gender ever being a factor from a job perspective. Heck, if you want to find a gender to blame for the gender gap, you can squarely start pointing a finger at their own gender. Much of the pressures women feel today outside of their job, originate from their own gender...and decades are crap from other ignorant women.
Imagine being fed a line of crap that you can have it both ways, realize you've been lied to, you now have a family and feel guilty for not pulling your own weight for income and guilty for not being at home to support your family. That's a sucky place to be. It's pretty easy to understand that some women might already be significantly stressed before you lay on the stresses of both work and home...
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Can you blame them?
Sure, sometimes. When they fail to realize that I abuse everyone equally, I blame them for personalizing it.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:3, Insightful)
A sports analogy, racial integration was accomplished because the first players were amongst the best. If a black player was only average, it would be "proof" to many they couldn't compete, while in fact it showed they were good enough to participate.
Re:Who cares, I thought women and men were equal? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You forgot your key assumptions. (Score:3, Insightful)
I have, by far, the easier job.
What bugs her the most is when some woman that makes her job a higher priority than her children patronizes her and says, "I wish I could stay home with my children." As if financial discipline and and 24/7 parenting are easier than luxury and day care.
Re:Women paid more than men (Score:3, Insightful)
It is a large group of women as a class are making more than the same class of men.
That does point to some kind of discriminatory mechanism. Perhaps automatic raises for women while men still have to ask. I know schools are somehow discouraging males or at least providing a lot more encouragement and support for females.
It is a tragedy in the making. And it hurts women too (well straight ones) since women still seem to require that the guy they marry is taller and makes more money than they do so a lot of them are staying single longer and competing over a smaller pool of qualifying males.
Re:Stereotypes (Score:3, Insightful)
Umm. There are times when it can't be corrected, such as not being introduced to clients or being passed over for assignments by high-up managers. And then think about this. Imagine you were told you a weak pathetic little man at least several times a week by clients or co-workers? It'd get annoying wouldn't it? Secretary is a keyword for pathetic little woman.
This isn't about social acceptance. This is about a job and doing work for an employer. This is not high school as you seem to believe it is.
Bullshit. You respect new hires because they have certain qualifications. You hired them because of such; you don't hire people you don't respect. It's only when they fail miserably that you lose your respect for them.
So a woman is expected to go against her nature and pretend to be a man? Is that what it takes to get and hold a job in IT? Would you say that to a gay man? You better start dating women and acting like a macho man if you want to keep this job. Your comment is utterly repugnant.
But you said later on you have to change? There you said you don't have to change ("act like one of the boys"). Which is it? Make up your mind.
Women can take jokes. They take them all day long. Jokes about asses, big tits, loose vaginas, prostitutes, blondes, wives, secretaries.. it's endless. The problem is when the jokes are mean spirited or down right insulting (such as women are worthless without their fuck hole type of jokes). Would you enjoy hearing small dick comments every day?
It's always so easy to give advice on something you haven't experienced.. isn't it? It's not your fault that you can't relate. I don't blame you. You're like one of those single people who give parenting advice to parents. Do you have any idea how removed from the situation you are? Do you have any idea how hollow your advice is?
She was only trying to help you understand a different perspective. You perceived that as whining. You can't even be quiet to let a woman tell her side. The reality is you don't want to understand. You want to maintain the status quo. You don't want to hear anything that might cause you to reflect upon yourself.
Re:Feminism Confronts Technology ---- by Judy Wajc (Score:2, Insightful)
I was out at a bar, with two other tech-Y's, sitting having a drink after we ate... A guy came up and started talking to us, and while we were talking, he mentioned that he was a computer programmer. I leaned forward and replied that all (3) of us were also "computer people" - myself & my boyfriend being programmers, and my other friend is a network guy... When I mentioned the programming part, he immediately asked specifically what I did... When I gave him my reply - he LAUGHED AT ME - and said "oh - I'm sorry!!", and then moved on to ask my boyfriend what he programmed in... My boyfriend gave him pretty much the same exact response as I did - and to my utter amazement, he was like "oh wow - that's cool!"...
UMMMMM - How is it that he feels sorry for me and laughs at me, yet a guy tells him he does the same exact thing like 2 seconds later, and all the sudden it's "wow" & "cool"??!!!! That seems to me to be another excellent example of the kind of gender BS that DOES affect the IT industry.... That guy has no freaking idea what my level of expertise is (and neither do you) - yet he still treated me like I was someone to feel sorry for or be laughed at, just because I'm female... and funnily enough, I've got about 6 years more experience than my boyfriend in the industry - I was actually the one who got my boyfriend programming by mentoring & teaching him - so I really feel this guy's reaction to me was pretty degrading & couldn't understand how it could have changed so radically when he got the same answer from a guy...
In another situation recently, a customer was having issues reaching our server network, and it was due to their own ISP's network having some issues... I was attemping to speak with some guy over the phone at the ISP about the problem, he first asked me if he could speak with someone technical - I replied that I was the tech person, that I was the correct person to be speaking with... I tried to start explaining that there seemed to be an issue within their network, but the guy started telling me that there was no problem in their network, and that our own servers were down (they certainly were not - I am 110% positive of this)... I was trying to explain what was being returned with the trace routes that I had just run from multiple networks back to them and that each showed problems within their network - however in the middle of this conversation, the guy starting YELLLING at the top of his voice on the phone to me to "get your tech people on this because you don't know what your talking about and your servers are down", and then basically hung up on me... All this after I ALREADY told him that our servers were CERTAINLY not down and that I WAS the tech person, I defenitely felt that his rudeness to me was based on the fact that in his mind, I was just a stupid girl who had no clue, and I couldn't know what I was talking about - I mean how dare I say there was a problem in his network!!?? I MUST be wrong!!
While neither of these people made any direct mention of their disdain for me as being because I was a female, I do