High School Students Forced To Declare A Major 670
i_like_spam writes "As reported in the NYTimes, high school freshmen at many high schools across the nation are now being forced to pick a major. Starting this Fall, 9th graders in Florida will have to choose to major from among a set of state-approved subjects, while some students in Mississippi will have to follow one of nine designated career paths. High school administrators hope that having students declare majors will lead to greater student interest in school until graduation. College administrators think otherwise: 'youngsters should instead concentrate on developing a broad range of critical thinking and communication skills,' says Debra Humphreys from the Association of American Colleges and Universities."
This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
With top down decisions like this (Score:5, Insightful)
Mixed (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, I hate the concept that all students must be prepared for college. A lot of people just aren't cut out for it. Some are looking for blue collar careers, and would be better served by programs that prepare them for this vocation.
Combine this with kids who are at risk of dropping out of school. I see a lot of this. Some areas have a higher than 50% drop out rates. If you can take these kids and show them that when they are done with high school, they will be ready for a job as an electrician, a plumber or a mechanic, they'd be more likely to stay in. Tell them that they need to have 4 semesters of English, two of history, and they will be required to take some arts classes, and their reward will be two years of post-secondary trade school, and then they might get a job... well, some back grounds just don't value the education enough.
I see downsides to the "track" approach, but I see upsides as well.
Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
I had a roommate who couldn't decide on a major, and in fact didn't have one until around his Junior Year
Some people know what they want to do when they turn 14, some people don't. I do not see the value of making the people who don't pick one anyway.
Umm... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is stupid. (Score:3, Insightful)
Definitley too early (Score:2, Insightful)
This. Is. So. Dumb. (Score:5, Insightful)
Second, the college folks are right on about needing a broader focus. As it is, students are too quick to dismiss fields of learning that they don't see as relevant to their interests. Sadly, most folks realize only after they leave school that the purpose of school at nearly all levels is not so much to teach you certain subjects, but to teach you how to learn.
Social Networking 101 (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
Throwing more money at it isn't necessarily the fix needed. Some places with relatively high spending per child have the crappiest schools.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:3, Insightful)
Bad Thing (Score:5, Insightful)
And guess what? After learning the basics of pretty much everything (much at least) I'm damn sure I have a good base of general knowledge for the rest of my career, and life for that matter. When I need to pick something up I always have a place to start.
Had I been forced to focus on just a few subjects I would probably be a lot worse of in today's ever-evolving business world.
Re:With top down decisions like this (Score:5, Insightful)
As I understand it, High School is part of what we in Sweden call "grundskolan", which is required here. It is illegal not to attend school up to this point. After that, everything is elective. To specialize so early reeks of desperation. Up until this point, kids are kids. They need to be told what to do and when to do it. Of course they need free time, but at this age school is for two things: learning basic "booksmart" skills to make it in life (math, reading, writing, how the government works) and human interaction. The human interaction part is recess and after school, during class they need to be told what to do and everyone needs the same stuff.
After you've attained the minimum level (lvl 1, 10,000xp) where you're able to function in society, you can choose where you want to go in life: directly to work (McDonalds, cleaning, aso) or you can get a higher education in some area of your interest.
Specializing earlier and earlier has become common these days. This appears when schools start competing for students. Generally I think this is a bad thing. Mostly because this means that you have to decide what you want to be/do when you really have no idea and really shouldn't be making life-altering decisions like this.
Anyone who has chosen College (or University) programs based on "what will be in demand" when you're finished will have chosen wrong. The world changes so fast that choosing what you are going to work with in 5-10 years based on what is in demand now will almost invariably mean that things have changed and you will find yourself in tough competition. It is generally better just to choose what to do based on what you want to do and hope for the best. At least then you'll be competing with others in a field you love.
Limited choices... (Score:3, Insightful)
Isn't this similar to a communist attitude? Note I said similar, not actual communism.
In the country where Freedom is our motto, we are starting to see less and less freedoms.
Re:Mixed (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually I see many downsides....
I was interested in CS all through high school and took every programming course (all 3...it was the mid-80s) that my school had to offer. But I also marched in the band.
What if this new major program prevented (via scheduling, resource, and location conflicts) the students ability to be engaged in multiple interests?
If I were back in high school and confronted with this, I probably would have chosen band over CS courses simply because that was where all my friends were.
This is what we did in the UK at age 14... (Score:5, Insightful)
When I was at school in the UK in the early 1980's, at age 14 we had to narrow our courses to about eight subjects in total (English, Maths and a couple of others mandatory, leaving quite a bit of choice) and we studied for national exams ("O" levels) at age 16. We then chose three or four subjects usually from the eight, to take to an advanced level ("A" level), leading to national exams at the age of 18. When it cam to university time, there was no such thing as this "undeclared major" rubbish that my son is doing at an American university starting this fall. Our university admission was into a particular course, based on prerequisite courses at "A" level at required grades. This allowed the universities to know the minimum level and rely on the expected knowledge of all the students in a given course, and there was no need for foundation years, or spending the first term or two catching everyone up. This is why we could have three year Bachelor's courses instead of the four year ones here in the US.
Today's kids are not being properly prepared for the work environment. I've lost count of the number of confident, self assured, broadly educated US Bachelors or Masters graduates I have interviewed for jobs in electronics who don't understand Ohm's Law or basic op-amp theory after graduating from between four and six years of study. It's time to stop the madness, and start preparing the kids for the new world, where they are competing against low wage earning graduates based in India or China, and if you think the UK system was harsh in making people choose, you should see the focus and emphasis on academics and career preparation in Asia...
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
Lowering the bar and worrying more about a child's "self esteem" rather than academics things things such as playing nanny to students AND wasting money on programs like sex education (sorry that is the job of the parents) AND sensitivity training are hurting academic performance. When teachers are expected to be nannies rather than teachers, do u rly expect students 2 xl @ math & science, & b able 2 sp34k in nything but aol sp35k? ZOMG LOL WTF!
Re:This is stupid. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This is stupid. (Score:2, Insightful)
Part of the problem is parental interest. If you send kids to school, and their parents don't care about their kids education, then the kids wont get a good education. It doesn't matter how good the educational system is, the parents haven't instilled the value of an education into their kids.
I went to two different school systems in high school. The first one had superb teachers, and adequate resources, but not one in twenty students had parents who cared about their kids education, so not many did well.
Conversely, the second school had teachers who didn't give a damn, but also had adequate resources. The other difference was that the students parents mostly cared about their kids education. The result? A lot more kids who went to college and even those that didn't, still got a lot more out of their education.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
But back to the FA. Forcing kids to choose a major? Stupid. It should be an option that guides you into the most appropriate courses to get you where you want to go. Kids need high school to learn about careers and THEN make a decision. What does an eighth grader know about what a physician really does? Or a chemist? Or a physicist? Hell, do they have majors for "fireman?" What about the kids who just want to be a carpenter like their dad, and HIS dad, take over the company business?
Most "educator's" are totally disconnected from reality. They surrounded themselves in school their entire lives, generally in a public servant type role. They think they know what's best for kids but really they have just overdosed on talks and reports from overpaid sociologists that pull theories out of their asses. This is why I refuse to send my kids to public school.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
The real problem with public education is that it has become the dumping ground for kids whose parents don't care and can't take the time to be engaged in their children's lives. Parents that care, do whatever they can to send their children to a private school or home school them. The public school system is full of kids who have no positive educational influence at home and are just a negative influence on kids that are trying to learn. Until you can get the majority of public school parents to care about their children's education and become a "champion" in their lives for an education, the system won't change and will continue to go down hill.
Not for us college folks. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is what we did in the UK at age 14... (Score:2, Insightful)
I currently have my MS in electrical engineering. The reason that I bring all of this up is because I had options after high school. I was not railroaded into a career that might have been interesting when I was 14, but ended up loathing it for the remainder of my life. I am not sure if such luxuries are possible in countries, such as the UK. I am curious. Is it possible to go from a trade job in the UK and later decide that you want to go to the university and get a degree?
Welcome to corporate teaching (Score:3, Insightful)
Worse yet, you have to swallow whatever is said about anything that's not in your field of expertise. You have to believe what you don't know. Sure, you will get irate and call bullshit on everything spewed on the media about the things you do understand, but you will readily believe everything else.
And that's what is wanted. It's also a very convenient way for Government out of its dilemma: You need dumb people to govern them easily, but smart people to have a strong economy.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
I went the AP/engineering/college bound path. My small rural highschool had a Vocational program for auto repair and an Ag path.
I took AP Calculus my junior year. I had literally run out of classes to take, but I wasn't allowed to take any of those 'other' classes. I'm not a Mechanical Engineer that has no clue how to weld. Even my college guidance counselor told me that welding was 'a waste of time.' We have a huge disconnect between engineering and manufacturing and there's a pretty clear reason why. Force everyone to take 1 shop and 1 welding class then ask the engineer why his 1.00000000 mm tolerance is a bit strict.
It's taken me 6+ years and lots of trial and error to learn how to fix my car. I started with oil changes and my biggest job to date was replacing the head on my car.
It's problem enough that we pigeon hole kids in college. I'm an engineer. It's my 'only' marketable skill. C/C++, Matlab, VB, Simulink, Free body diagrams are great for bringing home money now. But they're not going to help me redo my kitchen or paint my house or fix my car. If I had to do college over again. I'd tell my counselor to shove it and take 5-6 years for a BS degree. I'd take one of those classes most engineers looked down on, like how to wire a house, how to run plumbing, etc.
If only I went to a place where I could have learned all of this, at an early age, for free. Wait. I did.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the first indication that this isn't going to be done right is according to TFTitle high schoolers are going to be forced to pick a major - that is idiotic. However, if it were an option, to pick a major if you were interested, and if you were guaranteed to get a well rounded education regardless of your decision, and if there was little to no penalty for switching majors, this could be a good tool for keeping kids engaged.
I went to a college prep high school, so I didn't have as many choices when choosing my classes as those in public schools (no shop, no home economics, and would have had to travel to a different school for art), in fact I didn't get to make any choices about my curriculum until I was a junior (aside from choosing which of 2 math courses to take at the sophomore level) but even still I conscientiously steered myself towards physics and math, and avoided classes like geography, criminal justice, and psychology. But I knew by the time I was a junior that I wanted to be an engineer, and I never did change my major in college.
So, I essentially choose pre-engineering anyway. If this plan is a way of telling kids, "Hey, these classes are great for people with your interest!" Well then great. If it's a way to tell kids you have choose what classes you're going to be taking in four years now, or worse, you better figure out what you want to do with your life, then this is doomed to failure.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is stupid. (Score:3, Insightful)
It sounds like you are part of the problem. Parents who expect the school system to do the entire job of educating their children are definately part of the problem. Parents who have no time to spend, do not encourage their children in any way, let the tv be a babysitter are the ones too blame. The school system is not a miracle cure to kids who don't want to learn, whose attention span is gone, have no discipline, and who don't see the benefits in an education.
Funny you mention Asia (Score:4, Insightful)
Having talked to people who've gone and taught there (actual teachers, not regular Joes called in to play teacher) they say it is all route memorization. To be smart is to have a lot of facts and formulas in your head. Well as it turns out memorization and analyzation are really only useful to a point. That makes you good at taking tests, but you need to be able to synthesize that knowledge in to what else you know, and apply it to novel problems to really be useful. What more for some subjects it just totally and utterly fails. Language would be a good example. They teach foreign language the same way: memorize hundreds of phrases a week. However one needs only to examine the way you use your native language to realise that's not how we process it.
I then get to see the results of this education where I work, which is an engineering department at a university. What I see, fails to impress. The language skills of a large number of our Chinese students are ATROCIOUS. I've no idea how they passed the entrance exam (actually I do know, it is because memorization will do good for that, just not for the real world). They have extreme difficulty expressing themselves and almost as much difficulty understanding native speakers, even for quite simple things. They get along primarily by joining labs of professors that speak their native language, and simply isolating themselves. We have students who've been here for 4 years, yet still struggle, when a year of immersion is usually enough for extreme proficiency if you apply yourself.
Likewise I find in general they are extremely poor problem solvers. They've little trouble with book work or tests, however they are sunk when it comes to a practical problem. A lab full of people allegedly getting degrees in networking will be befuddled by a simple subnetting problem (they had their default gateway set outside of the subnet and didn't see the problem). They have knowledge, but it seems not understanding. If a problem isn't phrased in the theoretical terms and abstract equations they learned, they can't solve it.
Based on my experiences with these students, who are supposed to be very good since they can come to a foreign university, and with students from the US and other countries, along with what I've learned of China's educational system, I don't think I'd hold it up as the model to follow. It does seem to do well at preparing people for taking standardised tests, but alas the world isn't composed of those. It's the ability to use all that information on problems in the real world that is truly useful.
So I disagree that a better educational system is one that's more hardcore, one that forces kids to concentrate on only one thing at a very early age. I think a better educational system is one that tries to generally educate the mind, one that teaches people how to think, how to solve problems, and gives them a set of tools to do that for many different ones. Then, later, if they are interested in a field that requires more specialized knowledge, they can get that specialized training.
One of our professors has a quote I like very much:
BS: To learn how to think.
MS: To think about what others have thought.
PhD: To boldly think where none have thought before.
I think there's some truth to that. An undergraduate degree (and ESPICALLY a high school education) shouldn't be to try an hyper focus. It should be to teach you how to be a better thinker, to give you more skills and tools to that end. Yes there should be some focus since the skills for engineering are not the same skills for linguistics, but not a hyper focused program. That comes at a masters level, should you want it, where you really focus on one area of research.
For more on this, you might want to read Richard Feynman's biography (Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman). In it he talks about his experience in Brazil. He found that they really emphasised science in schools, teaching elementary kids
Re:This is stupid. (Score:4, Insightful)
Here, universities have decided it's a smart idea to narrow down your field of eduation. So if you choose your path crafty, you can circumvent all those math-heavy hardware related courses and go software-only.
Which in turn produces people who wonder why there are side effects when they consider their hardware to work "immediately" and why an "undefined" state can even exist. With a doctorate degree, no less.
Re:We already know this is a failure. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not sufficient to say "country x is sucessful", when you're trying to prove a policy used by x is good. First you need to prove that the country will be sucessful if and only if the policy is good.
Technically this is a strong form of the "missing midle term" error in logic (;-))
Alternatively, since Ontario isn't leading the world in economic success, and did use that policy, it's necessarily true that the policy doesn't gurantee economic success (;-))
--dave
Not going to get what they want (Score:5, Insightful)
Some of us were blessed in that we knew what we wanted to do early in high school. I was one of those, I loved computers and took business courses until grade 13. I also took welding, machine shop, shop for small engines (marine, snowmobile etc), physics, biology and chemistry, typing along with the all of the math, geography, history and english courses. I had a very well rounded education so that if I did change my mind I had the education to change careers totally. Those skills are still used today as I can weld/braze things, I can use machinery to make metal items and tools and I can strip and rebuild small engines with my eyes shut. When people ask me what I do for a living it sometimes freaks them out that a 'computer geek' can hold a welding torch without burning down the building.
When our children leave high school they should know
Re:This is stupid. (Score:1, Insightful)
Trust me, considering the expense involved in the state rearing a child (which is what usually happens if a teenager gets pregnant, even if they have an abortion or choose adoption, that money comes from somewhere) sex education is a money maker, not a money loser. Even if some kids don't follow the advice, there are plenty of poor parents out there that would not teach their kids anything at all, or worse yet, attempt to convince the child that condoms are wrong/against god. And we haven't even considered the impact on the child's future and how many people who are parents in their teenage years tend to end up on social assistance for the rest of their lives.
You won't stop base instincts, but you can at least keep the collateral damage down.
And, at least at my school, sex education consisted of one class a week for about 3 months. 16 classes don't cost all that much, even at $100/hr that's only $3,200. I am certain one single averted unwanted pregnancy would save that much, if not probably save enough money to teach all the students at that school sex ed for the next 30 years (assuming the teenager ends up on social assistance).
Yes, there's the idea that their peers will teach them this. At some point the "education" their peers know of came from a teacher somewhere. Perhaps it was a parent, or perhaps it wasn't. It's not worth risking it either way, IMHO.
Depending on the school, you may even find volunteers to teach these courses. While it would be "scary" I know I'd be willing to do it if the choice were to let the parents religion decide on how the students will learn sex ed. That's a much more scary thought.
Oh, what a good captcha: intimacy
Re:Truly stupid attitude toward shop classes. (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:This is stupid. (Score:3, Insightful)
The Minnesota Miracle [mnhs.org] began in the 1960s, at which time our state got serious about pouring money into our schools. Our tax rates soared and remained consistently among the highest in the nation; and at the same time our schools performance rocketed to the top of the nation. Education remained mostly well funded up until about 1998. But ever since then our schools have been either coasting on steadily decaying infrastructure or independent districts have been imposing ever-larger property tax levies. Our previous governor screwed up the tax base for his own gain, and our current Chicken Little governor has continually refused to fix the mess his predecessor left behind, saying "everything's always been just fine, you don't need more money."
Our schools are still performing pretty well, but we're hemorrhaging experienced teachers as they can't afford to remain in their jobs. Unless something drastic changes around here, don't expect Minnesota to remain near the top of that list for much longer.
And if someone ever asks you to elect a professional wrestler as your governor, just shoot them repeatedly until they stop asking.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
It went something like this:
"If you were to ask the shop up the road to make you a cube with the following dimensions, this is what it'd cost:
1 inch = $10
1.0 inch = $50
1.00 inch = $200
1.000 inch = $500
1.0000 inch = $1000
1.00000 inch = $5000"
I'd say 85% of my graduating ME class from a school that's considered a 'good' engineering college wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between the $50 and the $5000 option. "Well the numbers are all zero so they don't matter".
Then they wonder why they get yelled at by production when some print they came up with asks for 1.0000 mm between 2 holes that are
1 shop class could have easily helped this concept, even back in HS. Let people put their hands on the metal and maybe the next time they're designing something they can remember back to that HS course.
No, instead lets make them declare a major and keep them away from those dirty shop classes with all the potential dropouts.
My HS shop had an *expensive* dark room. Complete with rotating door to keep out light... In me and my siblings 9 years there, no one had once used it for anything more than storage. And now I'm having to back pedal trying to figure out what the heck all these settings are on my fancy new SLR.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:0, Insightful)
Hence, we have a society where parents are embarrassed to discuss sex with their kids. That's because *everybody* is embarrassed to discuss sex, period, and then we have a Church State that makes a crime out of even referring to it. When you can't breast-feed a kid in public or have a natural bulge in your pants without being cited for sexual harassment, that's the kind of society you get. Other countries which loosen up a little don't have this problem.
Not insightful (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't rate this insightful. It's a logical fallacy.
"Some schools with lots of resources are badly managed. Therefore, spending money to create better schools a bad idea."
The truth is that most schools with lots of funding produce students with higher GPA's. In general, more funding is a good thing.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd rather work retail minimum wage, was my conclusion.
Unionised fat cat 20 year service teacher who did NOTHING, they lost the will to live practically. Arrive @ 8:55am and in the parking lot by 3:05pm each day. Teachers who actively mocked their students. Self absorbed moaning about their hard hours, when most of these teachers had been in the same education system cradle to grave, no real world experience. What I found most distressing was an active contempt for people oriented towards manual trades vs academic performance. The world can't be made up 100% of lawyers and doctors damnit!
I came to the sad realistation that my ignorant assumptions at the ages of 6 and 8 and 10 than my teacher might be a 'stupid head' or idiot were most likely accurate at the time. The few teachers that somehow survive the byzantine bureacracy and escape the repetitive formula of class curriculum are truly blessings...who have no way of being rewarded for their higher performance or value. An elaborate system that breeds mediocrity only under the best circumstances.
10 years in IT now, I'm a director of Q/A and am very happy with my career choices. But I have no idea what I'm doing with my kids in a few years when they enter school... I hate to be an elitist snob, but private schools might be the only realistic option available to us.
Re:Another casualty of No Child Left Behind... (Score:3, Insightful)
The majors suck (Score:4, Insightful)
Um, where's the hard sciences? Where's the math-heavy subjects (including CS)? What is something as narrow as sports management doing in that list? WTF is "international studies" anyway?
When I was in school I took shop one year (it was actually required for all students) What I learned was that I could solder OK with a torch (I already could solder with an iron), could do a halfway-decent welding job with acetylene, but don't let me near an arc welder unless you want metal with ragged holes in it. Certainly it was more relevant to my future than Freshman English (a class taught by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing -- and I did not learn that line in that class), and more interesting as well. If these majors are so all-inclusive as to lock students into a single track with no opportunity to try other things, it'll make high school an even worse grind than it already is.
Anyway, I know people about my own age (mid-thirties) who had a major in high school. It seems to be a fad some schools go through from time to time. Actual practical effect is likely negligible, at least for college-bound students.
Re:Not insightful (Score:3, Insightful)
That's not what I said. "Throwing more money at it isn't necessarily the fix needed." Your 'therefore...' is a false extension of the quote.
More money probably won't hurt, but is not the be all and end all of problems with the school system.
We need to grow better parents. And actually teach, instead of teaching to a test.
Good and Bad (Score:3, Insightful)
That being said as people have pointed out this can be a burden on kids who just don't know or don't have any interests compelling enough to work towards.
I know right after I finished school, New York State started offering a program where you chose a field you were interested in and the program would prepare you better for majoring in that subject when you went to university.
It's definitely a double edged sword. It can be great for kids who are bored and would like something interesting to work on, but terrible for those who are already struggling just to pass the general courses.
another brick in the wall (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree and am always saying that one of the many, many major problems with education in America is that kids are not taught to think critically, to think for themselves.
They are taught to learn by rote and not to question authority.
With how the publication of science and textbooks has been politicized and corrupted; and then this crap and everything else that is going on with education here, it is clear that the goal is to create more cogs.
More cogs for the the machine that will be good little citizens. More bricks in the wall; like the Pink Floyd song "Another Brick in the Wall, pt.2"
More and more I am so sad for this country because I just don't see a way for America to survive as a free, progressive society. We were once the light of democracy for the world supposedly - and now , if we can avoid becoming a complete fascist dictatorship - we'll still have to deal with a country full of mindless cogs.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:3, Insightful)
3 to 1 says the plan was hatched by some school administrator or politician in the state department of education. It may even be an attempt to artificially inflate student test scores. e.g. Invent a 'Home Economics' track, shoehorn your less intelligent students into it, and then use it as an excuse to exempt them from science testing so that your average science test score per child tested increases.
Check the local school board. Everyone wants to know who gets to be president in 2008, and nobody pays attention to the jackass convention that thinks 1 teacher for every 35 students is too much but plans to increase taxes to fund a six million dollar football stadium. Your vote, and asking your friends and family and neighbors to vote, counts a lot more in the district school board elections than in state-wide or national elections.
Most of the people who go into teaching really want to help kids. It's a damn hard job, because with class preparation and reviewing tests and homeworks you put in a solid 50 or 60 hour work week. To make matters worse, because teaching is not a prestigious, highly compensated occupation, most of the US brightest high school graduates avoid it. And of course, they feel the pain of dumb school boards and bureaucratic regulation from administrators and politicians ten times more than anyone else. That's why there are terrible teachers in the mix - because many people smart enough to be brilliant teachers chose less work, less red tape, and probably 20% more money in the private sector.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:3, Insightful)
To be a rounded student out of high school you need the following:
Writing/Composition--3 years
Literature (Classic and modern)--2 years
History (World and National)--3 years
Argumentation/Debate--2 years
Scientific Method/Logic--1 year
Biology/Chemistry/General Science--3 years.
Math up to Pre-Calc (including Trig and Stats)--4 years
A foreign language--2 years
That's 5 hours a day for 4 years. Add in some Phys. Ed, and some half-year electives to round it out, and you're good to go.
Every one of those things is something that you'll use for the rest of your life. There is no high school math that you don't see in the world all the time; pre-calc especially is practical math. Everyone needs to know general science, and these days an advanced layman's understanding of Chemistry and Biology isn't really optional.
Writing/Composition/Debate/Scientific method are all basically the "Critical thinking" that people preach about. People need to learn to reason, people need to learn to develop an argument, and people need to be able to gather evidence for themselves and present it intelligently to their peers. Folding this crap in with other classes is pointless...It always becomes rote repitition. Composition can also be used to bulk up history/arts/literature as well through writing projects, but traditional "English" class is almost worthless...Just pure regurgitation with no thought involved.
Until we get away from rote memorization, the educational system here will continue to suck. Memorization is pointless in this era of readily available data.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:4, Insightful)
You're right, from a practical point of view, having people with broader knowledge is very important. In my high school career, I took 5 years of electronics, everything from the basics of resistors and capacitors to programming microcontrollers. It was one of the most valuable set of courses I took because now in my chosen career of software engineering, I have a better understanding of what's actually happening inside this equipment I write code for.
But school should not simply be job training centres, despite what some in business would like. We also need well rounded people. Techies needs to be familiar with art and literature. And artsies needs to know how to change the oil on their car. We need more renaissance men and women, not simple robots trained to do one job. Only then can we better understand each other and think outside the box to solve problems.
But to paraphrase a Central American dictator, we don't need educated people, we need oxen.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:2, Insightful)
Honestly, growing up knowing many of my teachers first as my parents co-workers many of them treat their employment as a job, but can you really blame them? It's not as if teachers are paid terribly well. You do get several months of vacation during a year but that's several months you don't get paid during either. I hate to pull this tired line, but many parents are so apathetic it becomes almost impossible to do much with the kids. My father was an assistant principle for many years at an elementary school, so he handled disciplinary problems. Most of the time kids who had problems behaving had parents who just didn't seem to care what their children were doing. With no support outside school many teachers end up babysitting problem kids while other children get no attention. What with low salaries, bratty kids, and overcrowded classrooms who can blame some people for developing an apathetic approach to teaching.
That said, for the 10 terrible teachers I have had I have always had one or two teachers every year I was in school (sometimes teachers who I didn't even have classes with, perhaps someone who did afterschool programs) who made school a great experience. Sometimes that had little to do with learning "subject material" and more to do with being given the freedom and guidance to explore new things (physics experiments, sports, art, etc...). I think it's plain easy to stand outside someone else's job and throw rocks through their windows, or pitch out the fruit because 25% is rotten, but it completely misses the point. Every profession is full of people who just do their job, or just get by, but there are always those who are passionate about what they do and do a terrific job of it. It's far too easy to complain about "public schools" and apathetic teachers rather than looking at many of the larger issues at hand.
A lot of posts here follow the script
1. went to school, was interested in teaching
2. discovered how little teaching pays / how little administrators and entrenched union employees cared about their jobs and school system
3. decided to do something else
I think that pattern is really indicative of something; primarily that many passionate motivated people end up not teaching because school systems are underfunded, parents would rather complain about the problem than work to fix it, etc...
Since the above is really off-topic I'll just include something more relevant too.
I grew up in germany, did a few years in the german school system but mostly in military schools. Germany has a school system that makes you pick pretty early on whether you want to join a trade, do office work, or attend university ( wikipedia link [wikipedia.org]). Pretty much in elementary school you decide if you want to go to college or not. Seems to work just fine for them, I never heard much in the way of complaints from friends.
I would say at least they are trying to engage kids more. We shouldn't just criticize it because it seems different to our own experiences. I would probably say that this whole "I'm 35 and I still don't know what I want to do" thing is a pretty new development of its own in our society. Maybe we're being overly permissive with people's career paths and decisions. You could say, not having to pay any real price for being indecisive makes it almost impossible to pick anything and stick with it. Which, ultimately results in people just always questioning their decisions and never being happy with what they do no matter what it is. I hate my job but I'm pretty sure after I put in 10-15 years of drudgery and underpaid work I hate I'll get to have one of the best jobs I could imagine, being the lead designer on a number of large scale building projects. Do I hat
Re:This is stupid. (Score:3, Insightful)
Additionally, the guys building and maintaining the stuff you design might treat you better and have more respect for you if you have some common sense and are at least familiar with what they're doing, rather than being an "intellectual" who's afraid to work with his hands. And bonus points if you're actually good at it.
Brave New World (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is stupid. (Score:3, Insightful)
Modern schools aren't helping this much. Of course, I'm not sure that organized education systems ever did. You have to learn on your own.
Re:This is stupid. (Score:4, Insightful)