| Republic.com 2.0 | |
| author | Cass R. Sunstein |
| pages | 251 |
| publisher | Princeton University Press |
| rating | 8 |
| reviewer | Simon DeDeo |
| ISBN | 978-0-691-13356-0 |
| summary | Provocative but flawed |
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Absolute free speech (Score:4, Interesting)
The classic example is why you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre -- the real reason is that it intrudes on the private property owner's rights to operate his business in a peaceful manner.
Re:Absolute free speech (Score:5, Informative)
I thought it was actually about the danger of imminent bodily harm to those who would be trampled in a stampede. It's perfectly legal to use speech to attempt to bring down somebody's business -- that's what boycotts, protests and pickets are all about -- but not to cause a risk of a stampede.
There are only a few cases that have held that a legislature can place a citizen's right to receive the benefits of a business in peace above the First Amendment. These cases are usually based around hospitals and abortion clinics, where the strong need for peace and quiet while receiving medical services overcomes the interest of the protesters. You can argue whether the Supreme Court (in deciding that state legislatures can place the interest in quiet ahead of the First Amendment) and the states (in actually doing so in some cases) got that one right or wrong, but it's the law of our country for the time being.
The rest of the "quiet enjoyment" cases usually revolve around homes, not businesses. It's constitutional for a state government to outlaw me standing outside your house with a megaphone at 6 am (and, again, the cases usually start with abortion protesters).
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The depressing thi
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Unless, of course there really is a fire.
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Constitutionally speaking, your right to free speech ends where it steps on someone else's right. Just like my right to swing my arm ends before it connects with your nose.
The classic example is why you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre -- the real reason is that it intrudes on the private property owner's rights to operate his business in a peaceful manner.
Ahh no, the real reason is because shouting "fire" in a crowded theater [wikipedia.org] was judged to be an imminent lawless action [wikipedia.org]. The act of shouting about a nonexistent fire in a crowded area is likely to cause a riot and damage to property and people. In that case it would not be considered free speech but would instead be treated as a crime.
You can shout whatever you want on private property, unless you are threatening violence or performing some other lawless action all the property owner can do is ask you to lea
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Which part of the Constitution covers this right, exactly?
The real real reason is that yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater is likely to cause injury as people storm for the exits. It's the same reason why you can fire a gun at a target in a shooting range, but not at a target on the outside of the building across the street.
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any stampede will be lawyers entering to pick up work.
It Ends Long Before That. (Score:2)
You'll be gagged and bound long before you ever get to that point.
The western world nowadays pays only lip service to free speech, if it ever paid it any mind at all. Your free speech is subject to "public opinion" approving of what you have to say, and by "public opinion", we generally mean the mainstream press opinion of what public opi
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Well then sorry pal, you're shit out of luck.
Didn't you just prove yourself wrong there?
Your free speech is subject to "public opinion" approving of what you have to say
Oh, please. The Supreme Court just held that high school students have a constitutional right to hold up a sign reading "Bong Hits for Jesus". I'm really not sure what part of the supposed majority believes in that position, but they have a right to say it none the less.
If "public opinion" doesn't agree then
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I am not sure what case you think you are referring to, but I think I recall the U.S Supreme Court ruling *AGAINST* the student's right to wave the "Bong Hits for Jesus" banner. http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/06/25/free.speech/index.html [cnn.com]
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Your right to speak does not imply my obligation to listen, or to publish your rants. You are, as far as I can tell, free to do so yourself.
It also seems to me that all those groups who "close in and snuff you out" are exercising their right to free speech as well.
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Want to support a rebel group labeled as a terrorist organization?
Define "support." Verbal advocacy is one thing, but those who do so are often found to materially support terrorist groups as well.
Want to show a picture of Mohamed?
No one is stopping you.
Want to eat dog meat?
Not really speech, is it? Anyway, you probably could get away with it in the US provided you didn't butcher the dog yourself. Also, my dog would like a word with you.
Want to criticize y
Re:I actually think ppl SHOULD be able to yell FIR (Score:2)
Things have changed since them. In todays environment, if a building catches fire, you h
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Of course, speech is meant to be heard, and I can (and do) rant on my blog till the cows come home, which is free available to anyone on the planet with a computer and an Internet connection. However, no one is required to look at it, for that I must rely on any merit of what I happen to say to attract readers.
Ultimately, the miracle a
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When we are in danger, we are
This is new? (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:This is new? (Score:4, Insightful)
The reviewed believes otherwise, and says so:
You may dispute his applications of such arguments to the real world, but it's certainly the case that they're both new and non-trivial.
The reviewer apparently lives in a cave, far from civilization.
but if you think about it, its really quite bad. Leftists only watch leftist media (to avoid critism/trolling, I make no examples), while rightists only watch rightist media. The result is that everyone only gets their own opinions reinforced, and not challenged. This pushes them away from the opposite side. Biased media, while legal, is bad because it has a polarizing effect. The individual Media outlets are biased one way or another (especially in the US), meaning it, as a whole, just kinda pushes everyone away from the moderate position. Thus, its not really a matter of it making people liberal or conservative, but less moderate. If the number of left media outlets matches the number of right is equal, the result is NOT unbiased media, but rather one biased against moderation.
How is the different from any other point in recorded human history?
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please actually read my review, it's not that long (Score:3, Informative)
Do read my review, instead of cherrypicking quotes out of context. This is "new" (Cass claims) because of technology that allows one to bypass the usual routes to encountering views and opinions different from your own: the public forum (e.g., speaker's corner) and the "general interest intermediaries" -- places like the New York Times or Wall Street Journal or CBS, &c..
Re:please actually read my review, it's not that l (Score:1)
But I still don't think that's all that different in the past. You're gonna get it from discussions and blow over from other people, flipping through the channels. But, thanks partially to the fact that there's only 2 political systems in th
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I tried to participate in TownHall for awhile, both to expose myself to different opinions and to offer a dissenting view in a rather one sided forum. Eventually I left because their format is so piss poor that it is near impossible to have a coherent discussion as all comments seem to be posted sequentially, without the ability to reply specifically to an earlier comment. I had hopes that Globaltics.net would possibly fil
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As a Conservative/Republican, I am ashamed to say that I know of none. Generally any conservative forum I have found is either representing the worst of the conservative and/or Republican mindset ("Illegal immigrants are coming to unplug our dead ladies!"), or they are trolled into oblivion. Little Green Footballs [littlegreenfootballs.com] is a good blog (from a conservative POV, of course), but they don't thread reader comments. Is there so
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This was a few years ago, however, and stopping back in it seems they've d
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You (or perhaps Cass) seem to be a f
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Re:This is new? (Score:4, Informative)
Because the speed at which people now move away from the middle has increased. It's always been happening, from the dawn of the printing press until today, but it's happening faster than ever before. The Internet has a tremendous ability to allow self-segregation along political lines.
Sure, people have always had friends with similar interests and political tastes. But it wasn't that long ago that there were only 3 TV channels that showed news programs: ABC, CBS, NBC. If you wanted news you had to watch one of those few channels. Each of the channels tried to grab as much of an audience as possible by staying moderately centrist. The cable revolution destroyed this model. Now you can watch CNN, Fox News, ABC, MSNBC, or whatever else you want.
Same thing for newspapers. In Washington DC there was once the Washington Post and the Washington Times. If you wanted print news you read one of the two major rags and that was that. They definitely had their slants -- Post to the left and Times to the right -- but didn't slant too far. Now, I can read DailyKos or LGF or Drudge. I can even read IndyMedia if I think DailyKos is too centrist.
It used to be that we all -- using "we all" to mean "US residents", apologies to the rest of the world -- shared at least some of the same news. Maybe two ideological opponents would see the same story on 60 Minutes. They might have a different take on the story -- one might see US presence in Vietnam as bad, the other as good -- but they saw the same images and events to form their opinions. They could rationally talk to each other since they agreed on the underlying facts and could debate the interpretation from common ground.
Now they don't share the same news at all. The right-winger might read about the Hillary fundraising scandal, and the left-winger might read about some Halliburtin hijinks. It's no longer possible to have a dialog: Neither side shares the same facts so there's no way to debate. They see such distorted views about the world that informed democracy may break down.
That's his argument, at least -- you can debate whether it's right or not, but it's definitely "different from any other point in recorded human history."
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No, its not new, but if you think about it, its really quite bad.
Leftists only watch leftist media (to avoid critism/trolling, I make no examples), while rightists only watch rightist media.
The result is that everyone only gets their own opinions reinforced, and not challenged. This pushes them away from the opposite side.
IIRC from the first edition, his notion of a fix was something akin to an equal-time requirement, whereby bloggers et. al. would be required to present opposing viewpoints in the name of fairness and exposure to same. Wonderful idea, on its face, until you start considering the consequences - such a principle can't possibly be applied merely to the folks you disagree with, requiring them to present views you do agree with. It has to apply to everyone, and where on earth does that end? Do we really want
Terrorists using bittorrent? (Score:3, Funny)
It took me a couple reads before I realized that "torrent" has other possible meanings unrelated to file-sharing. It must be from all the Cheetohs and dampness in my parents' basement - it's a breeding ground for disease and lethargy.
edition, not version (Score:4, Insightful)
Heh. It took me clicking on the Read More to realized "Republic 2.0" is not blogging software.
The term for books is, I think "edition" rather than "version".
(Wasn't there late-90s publishing software called Frontier or something? i may have been influenced by thinking of that.)
Re:edition, not version (Score:5, Funny)
No, you don't understand, this one's 2.0 - it's totally, like, interweb-age and about the blagosphere... It's on the information SUPERHIGHWAY!!!
Seriously, I propose a new rule: Calling something "Foo 2.0", where "Foo" is not a piece of software, is an automatic punch in the face. (doesn't have to be hard even, just to make a point)
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Man, Jon Blake Cusack 2.0 [cnn.com] isn't gonna go for that one... : p
Still dunno why all the fuss about blogs... (Score:4, Interesting)
If it's so good and so applicable, why doesn't he just post the content on his blog and let those who care find it there? (Why a "book"?)
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What do you think slashdot is? It's pretty much the Editors blog and they let the viewers submit topics.
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Anyway, you probably are just annoyed at political bias rather than annoyed that blogs don't aggregate news well, as some really aim specifically to do that.
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quick message from the author of the review (Score:3, Informative)
His evidence that blogs — and not just controlled psychological experiments — actually do elicit group polarization is disappointingly thin, and relies on overinterpreted linkage studies and anecdotal evidence that show major "hubs" in the political blogging world, like instapundit, Atrios, and talkingpointsmemo, acting as strong filters that reinforce the party line. Chris Bowers and Matt Stoller (also a close friend) have done a more detailed study [newpolitics.net] of linkage patterns and come to very different conclusions.
Thanks folks for reading.
So... (Score:2)
So... the terrorists won?
I've yet to find a political blog that isn't just cut and paste of some Party platform or ideological manifesto or just flat out kookery. And I'm FAR from a prude, but you have the word "fuck" seventeen times in your first paragraph, I'm not going to take you very seriously.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to flee. The Bush controlled Skull & Bones hit squad of ille
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I've yet to find a political blog that isn't just cut and paste of some Party platform or ideological manifesto or just flat out kookery. And I'm FAR from a prude, but you have the word "fuck" seventeen times in your first paragraph, I'm not going to take you very seriously.
So create your own, I did. (well, technically mine was (it's quite gone now) a copy of the party platform, but since I'm the only one in the party, I think it counts for your purposes).
Of course, getting attention for a blog that doesn't follow a party/pre-existing ideology is rather hard. Since you have no way to get the existing party line blogs to link to you, which I think is a big part of what the problem the book describes is. Noy only is it going to be near impossible to come across different (an
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I've actually tried now and then, but politics and ideology bore me so completely I wander into something like pondering about where the character Angel on Dexter gets those awesome hats.
I suppose I could start and anti-politics blog. I could take apart various other political blogs and show where they wander between true critical thinking and ideological zerothink. That might be fun.
Or I could start a fan site for Angel's hats.
hmmm, sounds like drivel (Score:1)