willith writes "James Oliver Rigney Jr, author of the long-running fantasy series The Wheel of Time and better known to millions of fans by the pen name Robert Jordan, died on 16 Sept 2007 from cardiac amyloidosis. Jordan announced he had been diagnosed with the disease in March 2006 and vowed to beat the odds, but determination and gumption sometimes just aren't enough in the face of a disease with a median survival time of just over two years. Jordan was in the process of writing the twelfth and final book in the Wheel of Time series, A Memory of Light, but the book was not slated for release until 2009 and is still incomplete. While there is hope that the book will still be finished from Jordan's notes, this is devastating news to all of us who have been reading the series since 1990."
Hundreds or thousands of decent people died in the last 24 hours. If *you* have had enough of an effect on the the world that random nerds care enough about you to make a reference to your legacy, count yourself lucky.
Robert Jordan wrote some great books. Then he turned 1 great book into 4 shitty ones, and unfortunately died before the end. Sucks. But if you can't laugh about shit, what's the point?
Not that it is a big surprise. Personally I expected this message for about a year now.
It would have been nice for him to be able to finish the series. True, a certain amount of foot-dragging in the middle of the series got him into this fix, but still I think somebody undertaking such a large venture, and mostly sucessfully, should have the satisfaction of seeing it finished.
It will be interesting to see how this is going to be finished. The material should be there, but writning style is a major part of these books and not too easily emulated. There are layers within layers.
Agreed, however I would at least like to see the answer to a few questions that were supposed to be resolved. Closure (and not closure someone else made up - what he actually intended from notes) is better than no closure even if it is obvious where the new author picks up. If he was on schedule then he I would think that he should have had a good deal of it done (a 2009 release date is fairly soon, it's not like one typically writes a 1000+ page book and go through editing/printing in a year), though I have no idea if he was anywhere close to on schedule.
If it is just another author filling in the gaps and answering - me I'll read it at least for the parts that he wrote. However the other stuff I'll just pick my own conclusion and assume it is as much cannon as what is in the book. This is why I tend to not read large multi-volume stories until they are done, I have read some where they just end right in the middle.
It feels kinda crass to feel that sorta thing about some guys death, but if he is like any other artist I would bet he is happy that many people are disappointed that they didn't get to see the end of his works. Especially given the scope and amount of time he put into the series.
His site, dragonmount.com is already slow to load...
The Google cache is old.
Rather than overwhelm the dragonmount.com servers with slashdotters (let other fans have a chance to see it), here's the full text from the blog post. I hope that I'm not overstepping by reprinting it here.
Sometimes even when you've fought your best.... Sunday, September 16th, 2007
It is with great sadness that I tell you that the Dragon is gone. RJ left us today at 2:45 PM. He fought a valiant fight against this most horrid disease. In the end, he left peacefully and in no pain. In the years he had fought this, he taught me much about living and about facing death. He never waivered in his faith, nor questioned our God's timing. I could not possibly be more proud of anyone. I am eternally grateful for the time that I had with him on this earth and look forward to our reunion, though as I told him this afternoon, not yet. I love you bubba.
Our beloved Harriet was at his side through the entire fight and to the end. The last words from his mouth were to tell her that he loved her.
Thank each and everyone of you for your prayers and support through this ordeal. He knew you were there. Harriet reminded him today that she was very proud of the many lives he had touched through his work. We've all felt the love that you've been sending my brother/cousin. Please keep it coming as our Harriet could use the support.
Jason will be posting funeral arrangements.
My sincerest thanks.
Peace and Light be with each of you,
Wilson Brother/Cousin 4th of 3
To Catalyst: Never, never loose faith. RJ did not. Harriet hasn't. I haven't. Going through what we have, our faith is only strengthened. Besides, if God didn't exist, we would have never had Jim. We did. God does. Remember my Brother/Cousin, my friend, think of him fondly and glorify God's name.
Editor's Note: The entire staff of Dragonmount.com would like to extend its most deepest sympathies to Robert Jordan's family. He touched all of our lives in some way and we wish him the rest and peace he deserves. We will be posting information in the near future about where you can send condolences. Please check the News Section for these updates.
Why are people attributing that to Jordan, as if he made it up? He didn't. It's a Japanese saying:
". . . be resolved that duty is heavier than a mountain, while death is lighter than a feather."-First Precept of the Imperial Rescript to Japanese Soldiers and Sailors
And now Robert Jordan passes. Say what you will about the quality of the later installments of the Wheel of Time, but the first five or six books (at least) are some of the most enjoyable and well-written fantasy I've read. Growing up, he was one of the authors who introduced me to fantasy, along with David Eddings, Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, Anne McCaffrey, and Tad Williams. I'm grateful to them all.
(Perhaps) an appropriate Gemmell quote:
"Not one of the creatures of blood can escape death. We all face it, and succumb to it. It follows us like a dark shadow. Yet, if we live in terror of it, then we do not live at all. Yes we are born alone, and yes we will die alone. But in between, we live. We know joy." --David Gemmell, Sword in the Storm
Here's what Wilson (Jordan's brother/cousin, whatever that means...) posted in the blog on September 9th.
Epilog: Yes he is continuing to work through all of this medical calamity. MOL is going into the word processor and onto audio tapes almost daily. Not every day mind you, because the medical fight takes first priority. But, he told you he'd finish and he will. Fact is that it has been finished in his head for years. During a recent family sit around, he became the Gleeman and told the bones of it ALL to Harriet and me. You read that right, I did say ALL. Don't ask, ain't telling. Two and a half hours of story telling by the Creator himself went by in the twinkling of an eye. Truly magical. All I can say is WOW! Best stuff he's ever done. MOL is going to knock your socks off! That's a promise.
I'm saddened to hear of Jordan's death. Yes, there were parts (took me about 8 months to get through them this last time...) that were a little slow, but it was fantasy on a scale of epic proportions, and I thought he did a masterful job of it. Better than I could have done, at least.
As for the story, the author may change, but book twelve will come out, and have exactly the content that he originally intended. If the storytelling style changes a little bit, it may be a refreshing end to a fantastic saga.
People keep going on about how slow and long this series was, however it has been an inspiration to me and reminds me very much of the great George R. R. Martin series, A Song of Ice and Fire, which I've only just started reading. The only book I was dissapointed in was Crossroads of Twilight. In serial work not every issue can be a home run. Sometimes you need to make one be a sacrifice to set up the next issues which makes them even better. As a good storyteller, Robert Jordan realized this. Those that want EVERY thing to be issue, episode, whatever to be the BEST one there is, will of course not like this but I have a hard time thinking of any long pieces of serial work that they'll enjoy.
Although some of the comments here have been fairly tasteless (what do you expect on the Internet) I think it is fair time to reflect on an author's works.
Obviously and unsurprisingly the Wheel of Time series dominates our impression of Mr Jordan. I'll start with saying that stand alone the first book is one of the best fantasy fiction books out there as far as I am concerned. I found the style and story imaginative and compelling, which is difficult to do in a heavily cliched genre.
However, like many others I went along for the ride with the rest of the series up until a point where I became frustrated with the author and I personally gave up at about book 9 though I had effectively given up on the series a couple of books before that.
I don't really know what Jordan's rationale for the length of this series was, I'm not a fanboy and don't follow any of the WoT forums for any insight into this, maybe I will do one day. I generally assume that he felt he had a story to tell and as far as he was concerned if it took many books to tell it - he would do so.
The lessons of the 'Wheel of time' series are that you need to bring all your readers with you, and that the value of literature isn't in the weight of paper. Readers are frankly puzzled that after 4 to 5 thousand pages why Jordan left his main characters in stasis whilst opening up new plots and new characters in the later books. The publisher and editors have a responsibility to help authors in this regard even if it causes tension. I'm left wondering if Jordan had a more focussed approach he would have been the top fantasy writer of his generation, but now I suspect he will be remembered as a curiousity.
I've only "known" Robert Jordan since January, when I started reading The Eye of the World, the first book in the Wheel of Time series. I started reading knowing full well that the series begins to go downhill, as my cube neighbor was a huge fan and has read the series through twice and began reading it again when I did (and even though he was a huge fan, he could admit pretty much exactly where the series falls off).
I have recently finished the sixth book, and I can begin to see a downward trend. But I so thoroughly enjoyed the first few books, I have to go on. Honestly, the first three books are amazing in my opinion, and you can always count on Robert Jordan to deliver a fantastic final 100 pages, even if the 600 before that were worth speed reading.
Even though I've only been in Robert Jordan's universe for a few months, I still feel his loss. It saddens me to know the series may never be complete, and if it is, it won't be completely his vision. Whether this is for better or worse, it still bothers me. I will continue to go on with the series, maybe at a slower pace so I can time the final release better if we ever hear a date.
Here's to you Robert Jordan, thank you for the little time we had together, I still look forward to the future.
Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.
Well, here's hoping he left enough notes (and by all accounts he would have) for the story to be finished off 'correctly'. I threw in the towel at the end of book 10 after none of the vital plotlines from book 9 were measurably advanced - in retrospect I should have stopped at book 7. Nonetheless, if it IS brought posthumously to some kind of conclusion it'd be nice to know what happens. A lot of wonderful storylines in an excellent fantasy world, if only he could
I've read a few interviews where he said that the ending had basically been written for years, so at least that's something. I hope they find someone to finish it. Despite losing a lot of focus in the middle it really has been a great series and was finally starting to look great again. It deserves an ending even if someone else has to fill in the gaps.
I've read a few interviews where he said that the ending had basically been written for years...
My friends who read the WoT series and I always had a theory that he'd written the ending years ago, and that in some strange, literary mockery of Zeno's Paradox, he just wrote the plot half-way there each time he churned out a new book.
It certainly seemed like some sort of plot time-dilation was happening in the last few books by their accounts.
Obviously, in Robert Jordan's case, you do NOT need to wrap it up. You can keep stringing people along until you pass away. You've got more stamina than I do, I stopped reading by book seven. It's not even the interminable and unchanging plots, it's his amateur command of the English language. I read one too many sentences describing a woman smoothing the front of her damn dress, flipped out, through book seven against a wall and haven't looked back.
Personally I hope they don't bother to put book 12 together, I stopped at 9.
There are thousands of people who have hung on for 17 years to reach the end of the tale, regardless of how much it had deteriorated in the later books. I have been unhappy with the most recent books myself, but I still wanted to find out what happens nonetheless. I probably speak for the majority of his readers in this. I'm saddened by his passing, and it would be even sadder if the story were never finished. It's almost certainly what he would have wanted.
I hope his notes at least reveal the outcome to whomever picks up the story. (Orson Scott Card, are you available?)
Card is an author that started out great and somewhere decided to market to the lowest-common denominator and churn out endless sequels. It was certainly that way with the Alvin Maker series. Red Prophet [amazon.com] is one of the finest fantasy books I've ever read, but all home that the Alvin Maker series would continue at such a high level were dashed when Alvin Journeyman came out, and it only got worse from there. Perhaps Card's turn for the worst happened around 1994-1995 when he was at work on both Alvin Journeyman, the last Homecoming book, and the fourth Ender novel, all of which were very disappointing. Now, this author who started out making real contributions to science fiction as legitimate literature is just an airport paperback writer.
Similarly, Jordan started out very fine, but around the fourth book of The Wheel of Time, when the series really took off and every high-schooler was reading it, he started to meander and stretch things out. One does wonder if Tor, the publisher of both Card and Jordan, put any pressure on them to produce unnecessarily long material.
I have only read the first book of the series and found it quite great. Does it get worse later on? Why are you saying this?
Yeeeeeep. The first three are pretty good, they probably could have stood on their own as a quite decent, though incomplete, trilogy. The fourth one is usually when people feel it starts to dip in quality, and the nadir is about the ninth book. I understand that the eleventh book is something of an improvement, but then you've got to get through the increasing amounts of filler from four through ten.
As the series progresses, the books get progressively slower up until book 11, when he starts really wrapping things up substantially. You could probably completely skip book 10 and not even notice it; at least book 9 something happened in the plot, even if it wasn't very much. Been a while since I read them, but I think the only significant plot advancement in book 10 was the rescue of someone (saving names so I don't spoil anything) from some Aiel, whose capture had happened somewhere in book 9. Their capture itself was not a significant plot element, and so far as I can tell has no outcome on the entire series other than to have given one of the major characters something to work on for book 10, which is good, because it's the only thing that happened.
Like I said, it's been a while since I read that book, and it could be that I'm missing something, after so many books over so many years (and many re-readings of them, including most recently listening to them as audio books), what happens in which book gets blurry.
I'm not trying to knock the series, just saying he seemed like he was stretching it out. I still think of the series fondly for all of that. I was eagerly awaiting the 12th book, and I do sincerely hope that a ghost writer is able to finish it. It's fairly epic, but the series would have been even better as 9 books.
There are thousands of people who have hung on for 17 years to reach the end of the tale
The curse of buying from a supplier with a single-source. If you're smart enough to buy a plain beige box made of parts from 30 low-bidders, that can run a variety of operating systems, you should be smart enough to buy novels written the same way. That way, if once of the writers dies, any number of other low-bidders can just pick up where he/she left off
Honestly, buying a novel from a series written by a single writer is like buying a Mac. Sure, the writing might be a little better than if it were written as a collaboration, but it's TOTAL VENDOR LOCK-IN!
Never buy a book from a series unless it has at least 3 authors!
IIRC you are correct about the WOT being a trilogy.
Jordan's passing is all the more disheartening for this. He could have been an epic figure in fantasy lit, but he gave in to the marketing drones.
I absolutely loved the series until the last chapters of book three. His legacy is fucked now. The later books in the WOT series are as unreadable as his work on the Conan series.
Anyhow... RIP Jordan. You wrote more good lit than I ever did, even if the good material was the vast minority of your output.
It's so true. He should have done what R.A. Salvatore has done. Rather than taking his trilogy and making it 12 books long, he just wrote another trilogy using the same characters and then another. Then he wrote a prequel trilogy and so on ad infinitum. The end result is a story-line that is nearly as long as WoT, but is manageable because you take it in chunks. Each series of books is fairly self-contained, and tells a story in itself while still leaving enough loose ends on which to base another series of books.
Actually, now, as I am writing, I am reminded of the best at this, Terry Pratchett. You don't even have to read the books in order. He really is a genius at making every book completely self-contained, yet having them still sit in a larger story line. In many of his trilogies I have actually read the second or third before the first, and it made complete sense.
Actually, now, as I am writing, I am reminded of the best at this, Terry Pratchett. You don't even have to read the books in order. He really is a genius at making every book completely self-contained, yet having them still sit in a larger story line. In many of his trilogies I have actually read the second or third before the first, and it made complete sense.
There are two author's that I have almost all their books: Terry Pratchett and Lois McMaster Bujold. Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles books (http://www.baen.com/author_catalog.asp?author=lmbujold) aren't usually as funny as Terry Pratchett, but if you are into space opera scifi at all you can easily pick up any of the Miles books and be enjoyed without having to worry about entire back stories of characters. Oh, the books are much better if you have read them all and do know all the ins and outs of the backstories, but you can lend any book of the series to a friend and usually get them hooked.
But there's a difference between writing multi-volume epics that cover multiple story lines and padding out the books with ad-nauseum descriptions of camps/jewellery/men and women arguing.
Robert Louis Stephenson once wrote that his motto was "Death to the optic nerve" meaning that he wanted books where the situation of the protagonists were presented as the story went along, doing away with the need for large chunks of descriptive exposition.
Jordan wasted his story-telling abilities with huge (try 11 pages of description of walking from one side of the camp to the other) tracts of petty details and description that did nothing to further the story or enrich the characters. This was the blatant padding that pissed of so many people that were huge fans of the first 5 or so books and then became disenchanted with the rest. It wasn't the multiple story lines or the massive number of characters - it was this repetitive (here's a camp description, here's another camp description, and here's another camp description) rubbish that polluted the later books. Winters Heart could probably be replaced by a 20 page synopsis and the first 400 pages of Crossroads at Twilight is just the rehashing of the last (admittedly important) chapter of the previous book. This isn't a stylistic style but a a plea - don't waste my time and my money.
It is a great shame that he is no longer with us but I wonder how successful the series would be if a real editor was let loose on it? It would be condensed to about 6-8 books and may well be the greatest piece of sci-fi fantasy ever written.
I love this classic argument [somethingawful.com]. Anyone who's never made a successful movie can never say Uwe Boll movies are crap. Anyone who's never been Miss Missouri can never say that chick gave an air-headed response. Anyone who's never written a #1 best-selling book can never say the Wheel of Time series is tedious.
Aha, but he didn't. I personally, and all my friends who read Wheel of Time, loved it. Including the later books that are being reviled here. I also am reasonably certain that we aren't alone. Just because not everyone liked the whole series, doesn't mean he failed to make his books enjoyable.
Completely agree with you. I do agree with some of the critisism of the later books - when you wait for 18 months, only get about 5 days further in the story and mostly deal with minor characters you've forgotten about in the intervening time, it does get a little annoying. But having recently reread all 11 books back to back, I enjoyed it a great deal more. I *like* long books with multiple sub-plots. I will read and I'm sure enjoy book 12, and the longer and more comprehensive it is the better as far
That's what I was thinking, and I haven't even read any of the books (my bro has so maybe that's how I got the impression that they were fantasy rather than SF). This guy obviously hasn't read the books either, though he is trying to defend this guy's honour in his death. I still found the original joke kind of funny, though ever so slightly distasteful.
If all critical remarks should have been withheld until at least a week after his death, then where would they be expressed? This thread will be well over by then. Is Slashdot planning to start a new thread in a week or so? (And how could they announce it, if that itself might be taken as critical? "{Please hold all negative comments about Mr. Jordan for next week, when Slashdot will re-open the thread." Oooh! that sounds pretty critical, implying that not everyone has a high opinion of Robert Jordan's works!). So, we're in a thread where some people can post their opinion, free from any criticism, because criticism of each other's posts becomes criticism of the deceased? Handy for one side!
And seriously, the attempt to stifle one poster you're referring to (by resorting to negative personal comments) was not just illogical, it was mean spirited, petty, and vindictive. For a moment, it made me personally think less of Mr. Jordan, that he was attracting the sort of fans who would stoop so low. You resorted to the same technique by labeling people hyperactive. Apparently, there is an ad hominem fallacy in your argument for decency, so excuse me if I don't just take your word that the previousl referenced post was free of them.
That part of the thread where you joined in doesn't just concern Mr. Jordan, although I grant he's certainly central to it. By the time you posted, there was also a living person who was being insulted and abused. Your defense of this act shows you may think well of the dead, but have less respect for the living.
Now I'm going to have to read at least one of the WoT series. To do otherwise would be to commit a logical fallacy myself and judge the man by the quality of his fans.
Speaking as a writer, I would have no objections to someone making the same comment as the grandparent about me, after my death. It's funny, and if you can't take a joke at your own expense then being dead is the least of your worries. The 'give the family time to grieve' argument doesn't make much sense. This is Slashdot. If members of the family read this site, they will know what kind of comment to expect, and delay reading it for a bit if they think it will upset them.
That's a pretty rough criticism of a man who wrote a story that would humble Tolkien himself.
I doubt it. Tolkien knew how to tell a story. In particular he knew that not everything that he ever envisioned happening on the face on the face of middle earth should be puked out into the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Tolkien could let characters like Gandalf go off on side quests without covering every detail. We only knew Gandalf was rescued by the eagles - that's about all that's in the book. Jordon would have taken us on that flight. We know he found his way back to Rivendell; Jordon would have taken us on that walk. At one point Sam is cooking some rabbits he caught - Jordon would have made damned sure we knew exactly how and where they were caught. And gollum? Jordon would have been sure to cover everything he did too... from leaving the mountains, to being captured and tortured, to his release, and tracked him all the way back to Moria. When the sword that was broken was remade, we didn't have half a book dedicated to the tale, nor the tale of its delivery.
Tolkien's world is famous because of its immense depth and detail. Lord of the Rings is good writing because while you get a sense of all the depth and detail, its history, and its complexity. Very little of it is actually in the book; you know its there because you can see its 'edges'; but Tolkien didn't try to tell EVERYBODY'S story. He knew better.
Consider that Tolkien had the fellowship break up. He elected to chase essentially 3 paths, not ALL of them. We could have had books dedicated to what Gandalf was doing, we could have followed Boromir's boat over the falls and into the hand's Faramir, and followed Faramir from there. We could have followed Wormtongue after he was cast out of Theoden's throne room back to Isendgard, or followed the Ents after they were roused... but we didn't.
And had we done so, it would not have improved the book.
At the other end of good 'epic' writing is the Foundation Trilogy by Asimov. Its the complete opposite of Tolkien - Asimov tells the story of the galactic empire seen through shifting perspectives at critical turning points. The effect works. You see Seldon's vision unfold, and though the vignettes are character driven and you connect with the characters, at the end of each vignette you see the big picture take another step forward.
While it may be difficult to follow the individual plots of dozens of major and semi-major characters, that is a shortcoming of the readers mind and not the author.
What is the Wheel of Time about exactly? Its not really about anything because its about everything. And its not about everything because its spends to much time focused on the minutia of individuals. It tries to paint a forest by telling you the story of every tree. And in the end you have neither a good sense of the forest, nor any decent connection to any particular trees.
That's not the failure of the reader, that's a failure of the author. Because its a poor way to tell a story.
Well, to be more accurate, Tolkien knew how to construct a plot. As far as actually "telling a story", the man pretty much stunk up the page. His prose is so dry and boring and hard to read that I've never been able to finish the books. I know I'm not alone in finding his writing unbearable.
I used to feel the same way till I found out that his poetry (and his prose) was an immitation of ancient styles. From that perspective, it's all very well written.
The Lord of the Rings is a book I can reread every decade and it grows on me each time, I learn knew words, passages that I skimmed over or thought were boring become my favorites, old characters I thought I knew appear in a different light, some subtlties take on new meaning for me, I come to enjoy this poem or that.
I believe now that the Lord of the Rings is a truly incredible feat of literature. Despite many surface similarities, it is wholy different than any other fantasy I have read, almost none of which could be called great literature.
That's a pretty rough criticism of a man who wrote a story that would humble Tolkien himself.
Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time? Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time?!? Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time!?!?!?
You have got to be kidding (or on some extremely high-quality intoxicants). If Tolkien had the patience to finish TWoT, humility wouldn't be the emotion he'd feel. Annoyance, probably. Disgust, possibly. Pity, very likely. Here's a comparison of the two writers:
Tolkien
invented roughly two dozen different languages, with free borrowings from one another and a historical development of language and dialects over time
invented the history of a world on a grand scale from its very beginning
wrote some detailed stories covering very small periods within the above
finished each individual story
could write
Jordan
wrote three or four good books
kept on putting huge amounts of words on paper ('writing' is hardly the term) long after his fans had decided he was insane and would never finish
never finished
I too enjoyed the first several Jordan books. I was in grade school when they came out. I'm nearly thirty now.
I will grant that Tolkien was actually humble despite his great talents and that Jordan was proud despite rather limited ones.
Did you just say that the writer dying is a blessing? How fucking offensive, especially to those of us who were as close to him in the end [dragonmount.com] as we possibly could be as fans. I hope the death of no-one you care about is called a fucking blessing.
These books were kind of like the literary version of Zeno's Paradox. In every book, less happened than in the previous book. And extra plot lines were introduced all the time. At that rate it would have never finished. Things started to pick up a bit later, but I too stopped reading. And when I heard he was sick I vowed I wouldn't read anything else until he was done with it.
Death took him. (Score:5, Funny)
What really happened (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What really happened (Score:5, Insightful)
Robert Jordan wrote some great books. Then he turned 1 great book into 4 shitty ones, and unfortunately died before the end. Sucks. But if you can't laugh about shit, what's the point?
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A real pity (Score:5, Interesting)
It would have been nice for him to be able to finish the series. True, a certain amount of foot-dragging in the middle of the series got him into this fix, but still I think somebody undertaking such a large venture, and mostly sucessfully, should have the satisfaction of seeing it finished.
It will be interesting to see how this is going to be finished. The material should be there, but writning style is a major part of these books and not too easily emulated. There are layers within layers.
Re:A real pity (Score:5, Insightful)
If it is just another author filling in the gaps and answering - me I'll read it at least for the parts that he wrote. However the other stuff I'll just pick my own conclusion and assume it is as much cannon as what is in the book. This is why I tend to not read large multi-volume stories until they are done, I have read some where they just end right in the middle.
It feels kinda crass to feel that sorta thing about some guys death, but if he is like any other artist I would bet he is happy that many people are disappointed that they didn't get to see the end of his works. Especially given the scope and amount of time he put into the series.
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age (Score:3, Informative)
Site has been slashdotted... (Score:5, Informative)
The Google cache is old.
Rather than overwhelm the dragonmount.com servers with slashdotters (let other fans have a chance to see it), here's the full text from the blog post. I hope that I'm not overstepping by reprinting it here.
Sunday, September 16th, 2007
It is with great sadness that I tell you that the Dragon is gone. RJ left us today at 2:45 PM. He fought a valiant fight against this most horrid disease. In the end, he left peacefully and in no pain. In the years he had fought this, he taught me much about living and about facing death. He never waivered in his faith, nor questioned our God's timing. I could not possibly be more proud of anyone. I am eternally grateful for the time that I had with him on this earth and look forward to our reunion, though as I told him this afternoon, not yet. I love you bubba.
Our beloved Harriet was at his side through the entire fight and to the end. The last words from his mouth were to tell her that he loved her.
Thank each and everyone of you for your prayers and support through this ordeal. He knew you were there. Harriet reminded him today that she was very proud of the many lives he had touched through his work. We've all felt the love that you've been sending my brother/cousin. Please keep it coming as our Harriet could use the support.
Jason will be posting funeral arrangements.
My sincerest thanks.
Peace and Light be with each of you,
Wilson
Brother/Cousin
4th of 3
To Catalyst: Never, never loose faith. RJ did not. Harriet hasn't. I haven't. Going through what we have, our faith is only strengthened. Besides, if God didn't exist, we would have never had Jim. We did. God does. Remember my Brother/Cousin, my friend, think of him fondly and glorify God's name.
Editor's Note:
The entire staff of Dragonmount.com would like to extend its most deepest sympathies to Robert Jordan's family. He touched all of our lives in some way and we wish him the rest and peace he deserves. We will be posting information in the near future about where you can send condolences. Please check the News Section for these updates.
Re:Site has been slashdotted... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Site has been slashdotted... (Score:5, Informative)
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First David Gemmell, now Robert Jordan (Score:3, Interesting)
It seems like yesterday that David Gemmell passed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gemmell [wikipedia.org]), although it has been a year at this point.
And now Robert Jordan passes. Say what you will about the quality of the later installments of the Wheel of Time, but the first five or six books (at least) are some of the most enjoyable and well-written fantasy I've read. Growing up, he was one of the authors who introduced me to fantasy, along with David Eddings, Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, Anne McCaffrey, and Tad Williams. I'm grateful to them all.
(Perhaps) an appropriate Gemmell quote:
The series WILL go on (Score:4, Informative)
As for the story, the author may change, but book twelve will come out, and have exactly the content that he originally intended. If the storytelling style changes a little bit, it may be a refreshing end to a fantastic saga.
A Great Series (Score:5, Insightful)
Why the book world needs good editors (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously and unsurprisingly the Wheel of Time series dominates our impression of Mr Jordan. I'll start with saying that stand alone the first book is one of the best fantasy fiction books out there as far as I am concerned. I found the style and story imaginative and compelling, which is difficult to do in a heavily cliched genre.
However, like many others I went along for the ride with the rest of the series up until a point where I became frustrated with the author and I personally gave up at about book 9 though I had effectively given up on the series a couple of books before that.
I don't really know what Jordan's rationale for the length of this series was, I'm not a fanboy and don't follow any of the WoT forums for any insight into this, maybe I will do one day. I generally assume that he felt he had a story to tell and as far as he was concerned if it took many books to tell it - he would do so.
The lessons of the 'Wheel of time' series are that you need to bring all your readers with you, and that the value of literature isn't in the weight of paper. Readers are frankly puzzled that after 4 to 5 thousand pages why Jordan left his main characters in stasis whilst opening up new plots and new characters in the later books. The publisher and editors have a responsibility to help authors in this regard even if it causes tension. I'm left wondering if Jordan had a more focussed approach he would have been the top fantasy writer of his generation, but now I suspect he will be remembered as a curiousity.
RIP Robert Jordan
Ten years ago, I said... (Score:4, Funny)
My thoughts go out to those who have lost more than a good author.
Tarmon Gai'don has come and gone (Score:5, Interesting)
I have recently finished the sixth book, and I can begin to see a downward trend. But I so thoroughly enjoyed the first few books, I have to go on. Honestly, the first three books are amazing in my opinion, and you can always count on Robert Jordan to deliver a fantastic final 100 pages, even if the 600 before that were worth speed reading.
Even though I've only been in Robert Jordan's universe for a few months, I still feel his loss. It saddens me to know the series may never be complete, and if it is, it won't be completely his vision. Whether this is for better or worse, it still bothers me. I will continue to go on with the series, maybe at a slower pace so I can time the final release better if we ever hear a date.
Here's to you Robert Jordan, thank you for the little time we had together, I still look forward to the future.
Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, here's hoping he left enough notes (and by all accounts he would have) for the story to be finished off 'correctly'. I threw in the towel at the end of book 10 after none of the vital plotlines from book 9 were measurably advanced - in retrospect I should have stopped at book 7. Nonetheless, if it IS brought posthumously to some kind of conclusion it'd be nice to know what happens. A lot of wonderful storylines in an excellent fantasy world, if only he could
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Zeno's Paradox (Score:4, Insightful)
My friends who read the WoT series and I always had a theory that he'd written the ending years ago, and that in some strange, literary mockery of Zeno's Paradox, he just wrote the plot half-way there each time he churned out a new book.
It certainly seemed like some sort of plot time-dilation was happening in the last few books by their accounts.
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Re:Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Insightful)
There are thousands of people who have hung on for 17 years to reach the end of the tale, regardless of how much it had deteriorated in the later books. I have been unhappy with the most recent books myself, but I still wanted to find out what happens nonetheless. I probably speak for the majority of his readers in this. I'm saddened by his passing, and it would be even sadder if the story were never finished. It's almost certainly what he would have wanted.
I hope his notes at least reveal the outcome to whomever picks up the story. (Orson Scott Card, are you available?)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Insightful)
Card is an author that started out great and somewhere decided to market to the lowest-common denominator and churn out endless sequels. It was certainly that way with the Alvin Maker series. Red Prophet [amazon.com] is one of the finest fantasy books I've ever read, but all home that the Alvin Maker series would continue at such a high level were dashed when Alvin Journeyman came out, and it only got worse from there. Perhaps Card's turn for the worst happened around 1994-1995 when he was at work on both Alvin Journeyman, the last Homecoming book, and the fourth Ender novel, all of which were very disappointing. Now, this author who started out making real contributions to science fiction as legitimate literature is just an airport paperback writer.
Similarly, Jordan started out very fine, but around the fourth book of The Wheel of Time, when the series really took off and every high-schooler was reading it, he started to meander and stretch things out. One does wonder if Tor, the publisher of both Card and Jordan, put any pressure on them to produce unnecessarily long material.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Informative)
Yeeeeeep. The first three are pretty good, they probably could have stood on their own as a quite decent, though incomplete, trilogy. The fourth one is usually when people feel it starts to dip in quality, and the nadir is about the ninth book. I understand that the eleventh book is something of an improvement, but then you've got to get through the increasing amounts of filler from four through ten.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:4, Insightful)
Like I said, it's been a while since I read that book, and it could be that I'm missing something, after so many books over so many years (and many re-readings of them, including most recently listening to them as audio books), what happens in which book gets blurry.
I'm not trying to knock the series, just saying he seemed like he was stretching it out. I still think of the series fondly for all of that. I was eagerly awaiting the 12th book, and I do sincerely hope that a ghost writer is able to finish it. It's fairly epic, but the series would have been even better as 9 books.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Funny)
The curse of buying from a supplier with a single-source. If you're smart enough to buy a plain beige box made of parts from 30 low-bidders, that can run a variety of operating systems, you should be smart enough to buy novels written the same way. That way, if once of the writers dies, any number of other low-bidders can just pick up where he/she left off
Honestly, buying a novel from a series written by a single writer is like buying a Mac. Sure, the writing might be a little better than if it were written as a collaboration, but it's TOTAL VENDOR LOCK-IN!
Never buy a book from a series unless it has at least 3 authors!
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:4, Insightful)
Jordan's passing is all the more disheartening for this. He could have been an epic figure in fantasy lit, but he gave in to the marketing drones.
I absolutely loved the series until the last chapters of book three. His legacy is fucked now. The later books in the WOT series are as unreadable as his work on the Conan series.
Anyhow... RIP Jordan. You wrote more good lit than I ever did, even if the good material was the vast minority of your output.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, now, as I am writing, I am reminded of the best at this, Terry Pratchett. You don't even have to read the books in order. He really is a genius at making every book completely self-contained, yet having them still sit in a larger story line. In many of his trilogies I have actually read the second or third before the first, and it made complete sense.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Interesting)
There are two author's that I have almost all their books: Terry Pratchett and Lois McMaster Bujold. Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles books (http://www.baen.com/author_catalog.asp?author=lmbujold) aren't usually as funny as Terry Pratchett, but if you are into space opera scifi at all you can easily pick up any of the Miles books and be enjoyed without having to worry about entire back stories of characters. Oh, the books are much better if you have read them all and do know all the ins and outs of the backstories, but you can lend any book of the series to a friend and usually get them hooked.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Interesting)
But there's a difference between writing multi-volume epics that cover multiple story lines and padding out the books with ad-nauseum descriptions of camps/jewellery/men and women arguing.
Robert Louis Stephenson once wrote that his motto was "Death to the optic nerve" meaning that he wanted books where the situation of the protagonists were presented as the story went along, doing away with the need for large chunks of descriptive exposition.
Jordan wasted his story-telling abilities with huge (try 11 pages of description of walking from one side of the camp to the other) tracts of petty details and description that did nothing to further the story or enrich the characters. This was the blatant padding that pissed of so many people that were huge fans of the first 5 or so books and then became disenchanted with the rest. It wasn't the multiple story lines or the massive number of characters - it was this repetitive (here's a camp description, here's another camp description, and here's another camp description) rubbish that polluted the later books. Winters Heart could probably be replaced by a 20 page synopsis and the first 400 pages of Crossroads at Twilight is just the rehashing of the last (admittedly important) chapter of the previous book. This isn't a stylistic style but a a plea - don't waste my time and my money.
It is a great shame that he is no longer with us but I wonder how successful the series would be if a real editor was let loose on it? It would be condensed to about 6-8 books and may well be the greatest piece of sci-fi fantasy ever written.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:4, Insightful)
And seriously, the attempt to stifle one poster you're referring to (by resorting to negative personal comments) was not just illogical, it was mean spirited, petty, and vindictive. For a moment, it made me personally think less of Mr. Jordan, that he was attracting the sort of fans who would stoop so low. You resorted to the same technique by labeling people hyperactive. Apparently, there is an ad hominem fallacy in your argument for decency, so excuse me if I don't just take your word that the previousl referenced post was free of them.
That part of the thread where you joined in doesn't just concern Mr. Jordan, although I grant he's certainly central to it. By the time you posted, there was also a living person who was being insulted and abused. Your defense of this act shows you may think well of the dead, but have less respect for the living.
Now I'm going to have to read at least one of the WoT series. To do otherwise would be to commit a logical fallacy myself and judge the man by the quality of his fans.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Speaking as a writer, I would have no objections to someone making the same comment as the grandparent about me, after my death. It's funny, and if you can't take a joke at your own expense then being dead is the least of your worries. The 'give the family time to grieve' argument doesn't make much sense. This is Slashdot. If members of the family read this site, they will know what kind of comment to expect, and delay reading it for a bit if they think it will upset them.
The most depressing funeral
Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Insightful)
I doubt it. Tolkien knew how to tell a story. In particular he knew that not everything that he ever envisioned happening on the face on the face of middle earth should be puked out into the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Tolkien could let characters like Gandalf go off on side quests without covering every detail. We only knew Gandalf was rescued by the eagles - that's about all that's in the book. Jordon would have taken us on that flight. We know he found his way back to Rivendell; Jordon would have taken us on that walk. At one point Sam is cooking some rabbits he caught - Jordon would have made damned sure we knew exactly how and where they were caught. And gollum? Jordon would have been sure to cover everything he did too... from leaving the mountains, to being captured and tortured, to his release, and tracked him all the way back to Moria. When the sword that was broken was remade, we didn't have half a book dedicated to the tale, nor the tale of its delivery.
Tolkien's world is famous because of its immense depth and detail. Lord of the Rings is good writing because while you get a sense of all the depth and detail, its history, and its complexity. Very little of it is actually in the book; you know its there because you can see its 'edges'; but Tolkien didn't try to tell EVERYBODY'S story. He knew better.
Consider that Tolkien had the fellowship break up. He elected to chase essentially 3 paths, not ALL of them. We could have had books dedicated to what Gandalf was doing, we could have followed Boromir's boat over the falls and into the hand's Faramir, and followed Faramir from there. We could have followed Wormtongue after he was cast out of Theoden's throne room back to Isendgard, or followed the Ents after they were roused... but we didn't.
And had we done so, it would not have improved the book.
At the other end of good 'epic' writing is the Foundation Trilogy by Asimov. Its the complete opposite of Tolkien - Asimov tells the story of the galactic empire seen through shifting perspectives at critical turning points. The effect works. You see Seldon's vision unfold, and though the vignettes are character driven and you connect with the characters, at the end of each vignette you see the big picture take another step forward.
While it may be difficult to follow the individual plots of dozens of major and semi-major characters, that is a shortcoming of the readers mind and not the author.
What is the Wheel of Time about exactly? Its not really about anything because its about everything. And its not about everything because its spends to much time focused on the minutia of individuals. It tries to paint a forest by telling you the story of every tree. And in the end you have neither a good sense of the forest, nor any decent connection to any particular trees.
That's not the failure of the reader, that's a failure of the author. Because its a poor way to tell a story.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Insightful)
Tolkien knew how to tell a story.
Well, to be more accurate, Tolkien knew how to construct a plot. As far as actually "telling a story", the man pretty much stunk up the page. His prose is so dry and boring and hard to read that I've never been able to finish the books. I know I'm not alone in finding his writing unbearable.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:4, Informative)
The Lord of the Rings is a book I can reread every decade and it grows on me each time, I learn knew words, passages that I skimmed over or thought were boring become my favorites, old characters I thought I knew appear in a different light, some subtlties take on new meaning for me, I come to enjoy this poem or that.
I believe now that the Lord of the Rings is a truly incredible feat of literature. Despite many surface similarities, it is wholy different than any other fantasy I have read, almost none of which could be called great literature.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:4, Insightful)
Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time? Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time?!? Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time!?!?!?
You have got to be kidding (or on some extremely high-quality intoxicants). If Tolkien had the patience to finish TWoT, humility wouldn't be the emotion he'd feel. Annoyance, probably. Disgust, possibly. Pity, very likely. Here's a comparison of the two writers:
I too enjoyed the first several Jordan books. I was in grade school when they came out. I'm nearly thirty now.
I will grant that Tolkien was actually humble despite his great talents and that Jordan was proud despite rather limited ones.
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:One of the best (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you prefer to measure quality, not kilograms.
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