Airlines Have to Ask Permission to Fly 72 Hours Early 596
twitter wrote to mention that the TSA (Transport Security Administration) has released a new set of proposed rules that is raising quite a stir among groups ranging from the ACLU to the American Society of Travel Agents. Under the new rules airlines would be required to submit a passenger manifest (including full name, sex, date of birth, and redress number) for all flights departing, arriving, or flying over the United States at least 72 hours prior to departure. Boarding passes will only be issued to those passengers that have been cleared. "Hasbrouck submitted that requiring clearance in order to travel violates the US First Amendment right of assembly, the central claim in John Gilmore's case against the US government over the requirement to show photo ID for domestic travel. [...] ACLU's Barry Steinhardt quoted press reports of 500,000 to 750,000 people on the watch list (of which the no-fly list is a subset). 'If there are that many terrorists in the US, we'd all be dead.' TSA representative Kip Hawley noted that the list has been carefully investigated and halved over the last year. 'Half of grossly bloated is still bloated,' Steinhardt replied."
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:1, Insightful)
say goodbuy (Score:5, Insightful)
oh boy (Score:5, Insightful)
Completely impractical? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Your payperz, plezz (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:say goodbuy (Score:5, Insightful)
They're really gonna expect people to get cleared 72 hours in advance to go to their mother's funeral (to pick an example)?
Well, I guess they (TPTB at the TSA) continue to demonstrate how utterly clueless they are.
Missed flights? (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine being stuck 3 days before you can go home.
Re:Completely impractical? (Score:3, Insightful)
What about if your flight is delayed.
I am sorry but you missed your connection. It will take a three days to get you on a new flight. Have a nice day.
This is just what Bin Laden wants (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure bin Laden is laughing in his cave right now. He's used a classic martial arts move -- using the strength of the opponent against the opponent. Bin Laden wants to the isolate the U.S. from the world and the TSA is doing a great job of that.
I'll Defund TSA, if Elected. (Score:5, Insightful)
Send a Message - Don't Fly (Score:5, Insightful)
I REFUSE to be afraid (Score:5, Insightful)
I refuse to be afraid of this. I refuse to support any measure that would protect me 1% more if it took away my rights. This does that. I refuse to live my life afraid of dying when it takes me 2 hours to get through airline security when it should take 20minutes max.
I don't travel by plane at all anymore because of this. I go to Canada once per year and now I HAVE to get a passport because of paranoid people.
Stop being afraid, start defending your rights or we're going to end up needing permission to travel between states.
500,000 to 750,000 Terrorists in The US? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are 300M people in the US. Are you seriously telling me that at least 1 in 600 is on a terrorist watch list?
Something tells me that getting onto a terrorist watch list involves something other than being a terrorist. Otherwise, this just doesn't make any sense.
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I can see it now! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:say goodbuy (Score:5, Insightful)
but they did manage to sneak in additional papers-please wording:
It's still bad, and hasslesome, and invasive of privacy, but not outright bullet-in-foot material.
Re:Sensationalist Headline (Score:5, Insightful)
The point is that now is the time for feedback. You can't give feedback on something you don't know about.
Say, you don't work for the government do you? Sure don't want those pesky private citizens allowed to influence potential new regulations or laws that affect them, right? I mean the NERVE of some people - thinking that the government works for the citizens...
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Shit like this will cripple America...
What are they really up to then? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:say goodbuy (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep - totally clueless. And before someone suggests it, I should not have to provide the government a REASON why I want to travel on a moment's notice. We should not have to make exceptions for something so wrong.
Mod Parent down - author has too much common sense (Score:4, Insightful)
Too bad for derieved relatives (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems like time to write to Congress.
Get over it. The terrorists have won. (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact remains that the very thing we keep hearing those 'trrists' hate, freedom, is essentially dead in this country. For all the talk of how we're supposedly spreading freedom to an occupied country, it's just that, talk, since this administration is hell bent on destroying those very same freedoms in this country.
Between this newest revelation to track when people go on flights, requiring a national ID card, listening to our phone conversations without a warrant to preventing people from paying their bills [shns.com] until the source of their money is ok'd, we no longer live in a truly free society.
Oh sure, I can write this without fear of being arrested, but can I go on a flight without being classified as a threat? What does the file the FBI (and at least one other three-letter agency) have on me (and they do) say?
Bin Laden and his cohorts are probably laughing* in their cave at how they've succeeded in their first goal of undermining our society. How many times a week do we hear about law enforcement going into apoplectic seizures when someone thinks they saw some shifty character hanging around somewhere or an innocent package left behind shuts down some place?
It's a sad state of affairs when the people of this country don't care that their right to be free has been taken away from them. After all, there's those un-reality shows to watch. That the people who only a decade or so ago were crowing about how America is the greatest country on the planet, with all kinds of freedoms not enjoyed by many other countries, are now so willing to go along with this administration's excuses about why the rights enshrined in the Constitution must be taken away to protect them.
The quote about give them an inch and they'll take a mile certainly applies to this administration. Even worse, whoever comes into power next won't have the balls to undo the vast majority of wrongs being perpetrated against society but will instead be more concerned about getting re-elected than serving the people.
The rights of the Constitution had a good run of what, over two hundred years? Not bad all things considered. Now though, we are moving into a new era which will require citizens to involuntarily give up rights which have existed since the founding of the country in an effort to defeat terrorism. It will be a long, never-ending battle but by giving up our rights and acquiescing to the newest form a facist police-like-state, we can be assured that we will be safe and secure in our wiretapped, surveillanced, dwellings.
* I'm assuming that like most leaders, the rules they want to impose on others does not apply to them
Re:May I suggest.. (Score:2, Insightful)
For all the liberties that have been removed, how exactly have any of the new "security" measures helped prevent any threat coming from outside the country. Anyone intent on doing harm, will find a way through. Terrorism indeed, the U.S. (government that is) is truly terrified. The bad guys are winning.
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
We should just mark all patriotic Am3rican$ with a simple mark. Something simple like...oh, I dunno', maybe a six, three score, and six.
Without this mark, no one would be allowed to travel. Besides curtailing the nefarious schemes of terrorists it would also help with the large immigration problem. In time, as the populace surrendered to the most excellent goals of this process, it could easily be extended to other activities such as the buying and selling of goods.
I hate to throw a brink in the arguement... (Score:5, Insightful)
That being said, its still bullshit, without a doubt. But its NOT going to stop last-minute fliers from being able to fly.
And again, its not that this isn't complete horseshit, but they're already passing your infromation to the TSA - they're just doing it within 15 minutes of departure now (or 15 minutes after departure for international flights).
Re:Requirement is 30 min before flight (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, either A. the TSA really needs three days for clearance because they do hand checking, or B. they do an automated check and don't need that time. Let's examine each case.
If it really takes 72 hours to check someone out thoroughly, then they can't realistically let people be added to flights after that. Otherwise, the terrorists will just book at the last minute and will be checked more quickly and will have a much greater chance of getting missed in the rush.
If it doesn't really take 72 hours to check somebody out, then the TSA is just bullying the airlines into doing extra work, thus raising the cost of travel for everybody with no actual benefit.
I fail to see the upside here.
Kinda pricey (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you priced it? I have. $500 for a commercial flight, or $3500 for a charter from the Chicago area to North Carolina. Which do you think most people's budgets will let them choose?
Kinda makes the market for that type of service a little small. Anyone who can afford to spend that much on a flight, already does.
Re:say goodbuy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Requirement is 30 min before flight (Score:5, Insightful)
The upside is it helps break the expectation of freedom and get people used to the idea that every action must be pre-cleared by the government, which reduces the probability of strenuous objection to future intrusive policies.
Admittedly, though, that's only an "upside" from a certain perspective.
Re:say goodbuy (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe when we all have Cisco Telepresence things will be better. But we don't have that now (not to mention that it is VERY expensive.)
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Deaths in the U.S. in 2001 due to
heart disease - 700,000
cancer - 553,800
stroke - 164,000
accidents - 102,000 (Car accidents - 42,000)
influenza - 36,000
terrorism - 3,000
Where is the war on cancer, or the war on drunk driving? You're more likely to die driving to the airport than on the plane.
Re:Requirement is 30 min before flight (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Your payperz, plezz (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, you can't. You have to have a valid driver's license to drive.
As they say in the document... (Score:3, Insightful)
Again, all they are asking is for airlines to send what they can three days before, and then send updates - hardly onerous!
Re:I hate to throw a brink in the arguement... (Score:4, Insightful)
You think anybody in Congress has ever flown standby?
Or even knows what it is?
Re:Get over it. The terrorists have won. (Score:2, Insightful)
No, you're not an innocent bystandard, or a spectator, or someone who is "too busy", or "too lazy", or "doesn't care enough", or whatever the excuse. You are all involved and impacted whether you like it or not. Therefore, this is about personal integrity.
I submit to you that you are by now aware of the crises in this country. You are all educated. You are also aware that this is a fixable problem. It may be difficult, but its fixable. To a person of integrity, the choice is clear. Such a person takes action and does her best to be part of the solution. So what have you done to help?
If you refuse to stand up for your own values(which requires action), what good are you?
What useability - in fact, what security? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No need to write to Congress. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:4, Insightful)
The fallacy in your argument is that deaths from heart disease are not concentrated in a single time and place. No one community has bear the burden of 700,000 deaths in 102 minutes.
Heart disease, cancer, stroke, etc., can be more or less defined as diseases associated with aging and old age.
These deaths consequently rarely comes as a complete surprise - and the shock can be absorbed through mechanisms that have evolved over thousands of years.
But, as a society, we have often failed miserably in managing the single incident - the defining moment - that erodes confidence in the government and other social institutions, is marked by massive loss of life, property damage, economic losses that ripple through the entire economy - the WTC and Katrina continue to cast a very long shadow.
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Why the hell are you trying to make excuses for the terrorists? You're no true patriot. We can only hope that in a few years, spreading misinformation like this will be outlawed.
When I was a kid, 20 years ago, my world view was that the only country in the world where people would be stopped because of their papers and turned back with no reason, - was the Sovjet Union and its vassal states.
Submit my name 3 days before travel and maybe be refused on short notice? Sovjet. Hearing stories about small issues in immigration escalating and you ending up being sent back? Sovjet.
You're still a good country. Please don't become a bad one...
Re:forget about back in the day... (Score:3, Insightful)
3 days or 3 hours (Score:3, Insightful)
Three days? That'll never fly. MAYBE three HOURS, but not three days.
Forget that. Three minutes is 3 minutes too much. If I want to I should be able to to drive to the airport, pick a flight going where I want and buy a ticket with cash then and there without any "Papers please"!
Falconas a Canadian, let me say... (Score:2, Insightful)
So, if I'm on a flight from Vancouver to Cancun or (gasp!) Havana, (you guys south of us should really try vacationing in Cuba, it's dirt cheap, and you can drink the water, so I'm told...) the US wants to know about it.
Or, in other words, they want to be able to extend their ridiculous no-fly list to include people who don't live in the US, and who don't plan on setting foot on American soil, flying on Airlines that might not even do business to the US.
The fundamentally ridiculous part of this "data mining to catch terrorists" is the idea that, OK, we're looking for a needle in a haystack. So, if we make the haystack bigger, then somehow the needles we're looking for will magically appear.
Never mind that the false positive rate is going to be several orders of magnitude greater than the actual incidence rate of "being a terrorist" or "planning a terrorist attack on the US".
So this only sounds like a good idea to those people who don't care about arresting/detaining/harassing innocent people.
I hate to make a 'slippery slope' argument, but one of the hallmarks of a police state is keeping a file on your citizens, even if they're not suspects in a criminal matter.
Re:What useability - in fact, what security? (Score:3, Insightful)
If this sort of thing is so good at screening out 'bad people' or 'terrorist attackers', where are all the genuine terrorists they've caught?
Surely to god if they caught someone, they'd shout it from the rooftops. The fact that NO ONE has been announced suggests that NO ONE has been caught.
Never mind the fact that this type of 'pre-screening' measure only works if you assume that the average garden-variety terrorist isn't smart enough to come up with a fake ID.
When I was in high school, some friends of mine and I figured out a way to get "genuine" government-issued with a hologram and everything, fake IDs. Basically you start with a phony birth certificate, then take the driver's license learner's test with it.
Surely to god we ought to assume that terrorists planning attacks (if they actually exist - currently the US is doing EXACTLY what Al Queda wants them to do in Iraq, so why bother attacking the US?) are at least as smart as I was at age 16?
You probably don't need to leave your basement (Score:4, Insightful)
It's a pretty interesting world out there. Whether experiencing one of the many wonderous things man has achieved or being within a meter or two of a herd of wild elephants while they bath and play in a watering hole there's an awful lot of great things to experience in the world.
You don't need to do it. But it's a bit of a pointless life if you are contented by mere survival.
Re:Let's do the same in Europe (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Agreed, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
You have to start somewhere, name's as good as anything and better than most. Would you rather they require a full headshot to make a reservation? Or perhaps a blood and stool sample?
Yea, there's a starting point. In the USA it's called the Constitution of the USA, and nowhere in it does it give the government any power to require people hand over their id, for any reason!
FalconRe:What useability - in fact, what security? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:say goodbuy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I hate to throw a brink in the arguement... (Score:3, Insightful)
Or even knows what it is?
Sure. For the majority of states, flying back and forth every time Congress is in session ain't cheap. $165K goes a long way in a lot of places, but when you're making at least 10+ round-trip trips a year and maintaining a second residence in Wa$hington DC it doesn't go nearly as far as you'd think for congresscritters who aren't independently wealthy.
Sure, a lot of them are independently wealthy, but many of them are not. Financial disclosures are nifty-keen.
Re:What useability - in fact, what security? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is just what Bin Laden wants (Score:3, Insightful)
Our president is fighting the war on terror. Bin Laden is WINNING the war on terror.
I love being treated like a criminal/terrorist, under the government's constant scrutiny, in my own "free" country.
Re:balance (Score:2, Insightful)
The earlier post of statistics comparing death by accident or health to death by terrorism was something to build on. We should build a society that is much more tolerant of death by "terrorism" (or maybe it is death by "ideology" since the whole point is not to be terrorized).
3,000 people killed in the USA? That is virtually nothing! They should be honored as martyrs to freedom and open society. What good does revenge do for an open society? Are we better off for killing 100,000 in Iraq as retribution? No. We have to learn to absorb these blows while modeling free society. The price of being such a beacon will be that we are also a target. The reward for patience and courage in the face of attack will be, I believe, a real change in the world, a respect that leads other societies to wanting to be more like us. In any event, it is unlikely to that this course would lead to the kind of carnage that revenge has lead to, much less its echos through coming decades.
We have been cowards in the face of attack. And we suffer the fate of cowards: we cower. We remove our shoes. We speak in whispers as we wait in line. We hope we won't be singled out. Our freedom fades away.
Re:FUD - can transmit data up to 30 min before fli (Score:3, Insightful)
It's a simple question: Is freedom of movement a RIGHT? I believe it is. For the record, I have a problem with DRIVER'S LICENSES as I think the rationale that the government has a right to restrict travel on PUBLIC roads is crap. This doesn't mean I have a problem with traffic laws in general. If someone violates traffic rules restricting their travel *IS* appropriate. I just don't think there should be prior restraint.
Our tolerance for this nonsense the problem, not the imaginary terrorists.