NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The University of Oregon has filed a motion to quash the RIAA's subpoena for information on student identities in what is believed to be the first such motion made by a university with support from the state Attorney General. The motion (pdf) explains that it is impossible to identify the alleged infringers from the information the RIAA has presented: 'Five of the seventeen John Does accessed the content in question from double occupancy dorm rooms at the University. With regard to these Does, the University is able to identify only the room where the content was accessed and whether or not the computer used was a Macintosh or a PC ... The University cannot determine whether the content in question accessed by one occupant as opposed to another, or whether it was accessed instead by a visitor.' The AG's motion further argues (pdf) that "Plaintiffs' subpoena is unduly burdensome and overbroad. It seeks information that the University does not readily possess. In order to attempt to comply with the subpoena, the University would be forced to undertake an investigation to create discovery for Plaintiffs — an obligation not imposed by Rule 45. As the University is unable to identify the alleged infringers with any accuracy, it cannot comply with its federal obligation to notify students potentially affected by the subpoena. One commentator has likened the AG's argument to saying, in effect, that the RIAA's evidence is 'rubbish'."
UofO doesn't have unsecured wireless. They have a captive portal that requires you to login. Their argument for the wireless is that they can't tell if the person logging in is the same person as the one that is using the computer.. (IE, you give your GF your laptop and password for the day). In fact, with the issues cropping up from the CALEA act, (can't remember the exact spelling this early in the morning) schools can soon get in trouble for not authenticating their wireless, in case terrorists want to use it. No joke, thats what the feds say!! Most of the schools are pretty ticked about that act, since it opens up all sorts of possibilities for abuse, like this story.
Well of course. Everyone knows that lolcats is a famous terrorist haunt simply by looking at all the secret messages steganographically encoded in the cute-ickle-puddy pictures.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but rule 34 applies strictly to parties to an action (meaning, the plaintiff(s) or defendant(s)). University of Oregon is neither, so they have to be subpoenaed per rule 45.
If the colleges won't help the RIAA with their "Investigations" could this be the beginning of the end of the RIAA going after college students? Let's hope so. They already gave up on Harvard, too many students and professors that actually understand the law.
No, nowhere near the beginning. The RIAA labels' suicide started years ago and is still ongoing. Now, if you're scratching your heads and are wondering WTF I mean by "suicide", the established industry is dying from its own actions.
The year the old "pirate" Napster was being sued, CD sales (IIRC) were at their peak and have been dwindling since. The RIAA boycott (that you have never even once heard about in the mainstream media - hmmm....) must have had some slight effect on the industry.
Their first mistake was to think CD burning technology wouldn't, like all computer technology before it, be affordable for the serfs.
Their second mistake was to try to kill their competetion, the indies, by killing P2P.
Their third mistake was seeing MP3s as "product" rather than "advertising". They have always been known as "record companies", and they sold records. Now they're trying to sell music, and music is a non-tangible item. Note that the indies actually do this, giving away MP3s and selling CDs at their shows.
There were other mistakes - overpricing their wares (an indie CD is usually $5-$10), only having one good song on the CD (my generatiuon was damned lucky, have you ever heard a Led Zepplin song that sucked? There aren't any!), suing their paying customers (DUH!!!!!!) etc.
All their woes are self-inflicted. Now by "suicide" I'm assuming that you'll agree that if a mosquito lands on your foot and you try to kill the mosquito by firing five shots from a sixteen guage shotgun at it and you bleed to death, it's suicide.
I'm sorry, but while Led Zeppelin is good (I'm sure not going to argue), there are a certain percentage of their songs that I am convinced one must be stoned/high/drunk/etc in order to enjoy them properly. Since I am an abstainer, I don't really ever enjoy those songs. Not that they are bad songs, but they are not as good as the rest to those of us who don't use drugs of any type other than medicinal purposes. The rest of your argument is unaffected by this, however, and I agree.
IANAL. The U. of Oregon is right that the IP address is insufficient to identify the infringer. But I don't think that is a valid reason to deny a subpoena. Currently, the RIAA knows the alleged infringement came from university. If they can subpoena information that reduces that down to 2 likely suspects, then that is perfectly valid. The fact that this evidence alone cannot identify the individual precisely doesn't mean that they don't have a case.
IANAL, but I don't think you can sue "suspects". You need to identify the person or entity you're suing. If you could sue suspects, the RIAA could just sue every college student.
You have to have evidence that the person you're suing has committed the copyright infringement before the Court can permit discovery of his identity information. As Oregon's AG pointed out, the RIAA doesn't have such evidence.
by Anonymous Coward
on Friday November 02 2007, @09:23AM (#21211365)
Wow, many people don't RTFA and get slammed for it, sounds like you didn't read anything except the headline!
Even the summary clearly indicates that the only thing the University can state with any accuracy is the room that was used, and whether the computer was a PC or a MAC.
This in no-way limits the pool of potential "defendants" to two, (which was also stated in the summary), it simply says that it could have been on-or-the-other of the two room-mates, or any guest they may have ever had, or anyone else who may have had access to the room (i.e. janitorial staff, friends, friends' friends, party guests, etc.).
The University seems to be essentially saying that the scope of the investigation that they would have to undertake in order to comply with the subpoena exceeds the burden the litigant is (or should be?) permitted to impose on them.
Okay, well I do wish you luck if you try to argue that someone snuck into your dorm room (and no one else's!) without your knowledge, carrying bootable equipment, opened the P2P programs on your OS, downloaded copyrighted files, and then vanished with no clear benefit to himself, without creating any witnesses or appearing on any video cameras.
Umm, hell people don't notice much larger things than someone (say, another student) wandering into someone else's dorm room and futzing with their computer for a whi
Who's to say they "snuck" in? There are probably a thousand valid reasons why you'd *let* someone use your computer - and you don't stand over their shoulder to make sure they're not doing anything they shouldn't. And yes, the same arguments could *and should* be used in child porn, etc cases. Otherwise you are prosecuting people without having proven *beyond all reasonable doubt* that it was them.
Quite right, too. If you're going to prosecute someone for child porn and ruin their lives, you better be *da
This may be something unique to the University of Oregon, but I would be curious to see if the challenge of the subpoena would stand when applied to other universities.
The network architecture at my college was similar. However there were more specific rules involved. In the case of my dorm, each student was assigned a particular IP address, even a physical port in the room. There is also an agreement that is signed by the student that they agree to control access to that access point. (Lots of other nitty details, no routers...etc)
Without us falling into the trap of confusing what a judge would decide vs what we as a tech savvy community would want, would it be possible for a University's own access policies to be used against it in a refusal.
For UoO, they do appear to have valid claim to deny the request, but it seems that if they were more 'precise' in delivering internet access then they would not be able to refuse the subpoena.
Actually, the holes in the RIAA's "identification" process are not only applicable to all of the other colleges and universities targeted, they're applicable to all of the "John Doe" cases, even those dealing with commercial ISP's.
I think the issue all along has been that IP addresses are not persons. Yes, you can argue that the address has a responsible person behind it, and perhaps that's all the law cares about. But the RIAA needs to prove the infringing party is the same one who owns the IP address- not trivial. They are asking the ISP or University to decide who that is. All it takes is an uneducated person with an unsecured WAP and a savvy and unscrupulous wardriver and suddenly the ignorant have become copyright infringers. Leave your dorm room open and unattended or be unlucky enough to share an address with a dishonest roommate who points the finger at you could be enough to cause heaps of trouble.
I think the issue all along has been that IP addresses are not persons. Yes, you can argue that the address has a responsible person behind it, and perhaps that's all the law cares about. But the RIAA needs to prove the infringing party is the same one who owns the IP address- not trivial. They are asking the ISP or University to decide who that is. All it takes is an uneducated person with an unsecured WAP and a savvy and unscrupulous wardriver and suddenly the ignorant have become copyright infringers. Leave your dorm room open and unattended or be unlucky enough to share an address with a dishonest roommate who points the finger at you could be enough to cause heaps of trouble.
You have hit the nail on the head. The RIAA's investigation, at its best, only takes them to the dynamic IP address. That is not "all the law cares about". In copyright infringement, one cannot be held responsible for another's copyright infringement under 'secondary infringement' theory unless one affirmatively induced it.
It still does not reduce the poool of people by any reasonable amount....
If the room is dual occupancy, and there is evidence that the law was being broken using a PC in that room, and only one occupant of that room has a PC, then I'm sorry, but on balance it's looking like that person was the one breaking the law. Moreover, this is only 5 of the 17 Does. For another 9 of them, they do have the identity of the person whose credentials were used to access the wireless networking facilities, and apparently the argument is just that they can't prove the person who actually access
Except you're overlooking the fact that under the law the RIAA is not entitled to the identity information unless it has evidence, in a form that would be admissible at trial, sufficient to established that the "John Doe" whose identity is being sought has infringed the plaintiffs' copyrights. And the AG is so delicately and so accurately pointing out that the evidence does not so indicate.
The bullying tactics the lawyers have used in the suits typically reside under the term of "unduly burdensome".
I am glad that the U. of Oregon stood up to these guys but it seems that the idea of a warrant or getting this information as being "unduly burdensome" seems pretty broad.
Is there a solid definition in these types of cases for what is really unduly burdensome?
If they can't identify "subscribers", how can they pass along DMCA complaints or terminate the accounts of repeat offenders? If they can't do those things, does that eliminate their Safe Harbor status?
If I were an RIAA shark, I'd smell blood in the water.
No. If they take down material and neglect to take "reasonable steps to notify the subscriber" (i.e., the person who posted the material in the first place), they lose the legal protection against any damages that the takedown causes to the subscriber. The RIAA would not benefit from this even if the university never notified anybody of a DMCA takedown.
Unless the person lives alone, has a completely secured wireless/wired connection, is free of bots, trojons, and a thousand other things, you can never be entirely sure who was using the machine. It's a fundlemental failing of the law, IMHO, which is a result of bad lobbying, and a lack of technical understanding by those who passed the law.
> If they can't identify "subscribers", how can they pass along DMCA complaints > or terminate the accounts of repeat offenders? If they can't do those things, > does that eliminate their Safe Harbor status?
Short answer, "no".
Slightly longer answer, many services can't do that. Requiring them to would place an impossible burden on anonymous speech.
"If I were an RIAA shark, I'd smell blood in the water."
Well, yes. But the question is, whose blood?
As I said elsewhere, the U.O. President is a former dean of the U.O. Law School, and a former Attorney General of the State of Oregon. His university bio says he argued seven cases before the US Supreme Court as state AG and won six, and goes on to say that's more cases and a better record than any other contemporary State A.G. Its almost impossible to imagine that the University took this step without consulting him, and it's equally difficult to imagine he's misjudged the strength of their case or that he's afraid to take it all the way to the US Supreme Court.
I think the RIAA's sharks have just bitten a much bigger shark. If they aren't looking for a way to swim away quietly, they're in for a hell of a fight.
everyone still keeps acting like the riaa can be defeated with reason and legal leg work. as the recent jury trial showed, reason and legal legwork cannot defeat legions of well-funded lawyers. the only way to defeat the riaa is to wait them out
once there was a time when we were nothing but small mammals, and the world was ruled by terrible lizards. in the realm of intellectual property, this is that time. the internet, of course, obliterates the old economic models of distribution. the old economic models are the riaa's sustenance. so you defeat the riaa by waiting for it's food source to dry up
in the meantime, do what little mammals do best: be nocturnal, be quick, be small, be quiet. mask yourself, use proxies, do all manner of obfuscation and security through obscurity. the internet has no legal jurisdiction. don't fight them head on. just hide
there will be of course casualties, even a dying lizard can swing it's tail mightily. but in the end, it will be dead, and we shall inherit the earth. patience my friends. you cannot defeat the terrible lizard head on. just wait for it to die of starvation
it's economic model is history. the only one who doesn't know it is the riaa. there is no reasoning with the terrible beast, it's behaviors are not, and never have been, and never will be rational. you do not reason with a legal attack dog
wait, and the riaa will die. stop trying to reason with the unreasonable
suing soccer moms and grandmothers for thousands of dollars is not the actions of a rational entity. it is the mark of a last desperate stand, and the end is in sight
everyone still keeps acting like the riaa can be defeated with reason and legal leg work. as the recent jury trial showed, reason and legal legwork cannot defeat legions of well-funded lawyers. the only way to defeat the riaa is to wait them out
You've got to be kidding.
1. You can't "wait them out" if you're the one that's being sued (or, as in this case, the university that's being put in a position in which it's being forced to violate the law)
2. If you think this motion doesn't have enormous impact, you're wrong.
but i would assert that sea changes in business and culture can render your entire legal argument moot
for example, in a world where no artist signs with any music label, because they can get more money putting their own shingle on the internet, then the rights of labels that don't exist economically anymore don't have any meaning
it will take time to arrive at this new world, so perhaps we have to wait a lot longer than i might wish
to put it another way: there is a great legal framework in place concerning the rights of player piano music roll manufacturers
but in world where there are no player pianos, except in museums, then what does that legal framework mean?
likewise, i am not going to counter your legal arguments, your legal arguments are 100% correct
but i am going to say that over time, the entire legal realm the arguments you are making exist in will become defunct
it will take awhile, but you have an entire generation of young people who know what i am talking about. when such children are in their 40s and 50s, and are running whatever dried up remains of bertelsmann, coumbia records, etc. still exists, then what will any of this sound and fury really mean anymore?
I believe you are wrong on the point that anyone can derive revenue from recorded music. We have spent the last 10 years or so proving that everything on the Internet is free. All micropayment and subscription plans for the general public have failed. Nobody is interested in paying for something from site A when they can have the same (or at least similar) content from site B. There are no barriers to entry on the Internet that prevent site B from starting up and offering something similar to site A. T
I see some bad guys picking on some defenseless people, I jump in and try to help. Whether I will ultimately win or lose is a matter of indifference to me, because I have no control over the ultimate outcome. What I have control of is that I am fighting on the right side.
All I know about the motion the Oregon State Attorney General made on behalf of the University of Oregon is this:
-it is legally right
-it is morally right
-it's the first time a university or an AG has stepped into this business since it began in February
-the RIAA lawyers can make no intelligible response to it, since it is based on facts which the RIAA's own witnesses have already admitted under oath, and
-it's a terrible blow to the RIAA, once which they never anticipated.
It's not the RIAA that's doing this, it's 4 large record companies who are hiding behind the RIAA as a way of concealing their antitrust law-prohibited conduct. I have never seen any plaintiff who is not a label owned by the big 4. There are hundreds of other record companies who are RIAA members who have not been a part of any of these lawsuits. If I were an RIAA member I would be asking law enforcement authorities to investigate.
With Phil Knight's money behind them, a former State Attorney General as the head of the school, and a liberal-leaning state, this could really spell out some issues for RIAA.
A subpoena for an IP trace ("tell me who owned this internet access account on this date") is not normally a burden.
If the subpoena instead requested the school "identify who was using this computer at this time", the school's response fits.
The subpoena requires the school investigate, not just disgorge a few records.
Maybe all the students in the dorm could each claim they were the guilty party? ("I'm Sparticus!")
IANAL, but nonetheless, I think you're got the wrong idea here...
A subpoena for an IP trace ("tell me who owned this internet access account on this date") is not normally a burden. If the subpoena instead requested the school "identify who was using this computer at this time", the school's response fits.
From the fine document:
On September 17, 2007, Plaintiffs served the University of Oregon ("University") with a subpoena under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 45, commanding the University to produce
the University is able to identify only the room where the content was accessed and whether or not the computer used was a Macintosh or a PC... The University cannot determine whether the content in question accessed by one occupant as opposed to another, or whether it was accessed instead by a visitor
Back in the day, we used to tape tapes and albums with absolutely no consequences. And we still bought new tapes and albums anyway. Today, we are assumed to be criminals for doing the same thing, only now in digital format. What is a person to do?
I'll think I will stick to used CD stores for now. Reduce, reuse, recycle.
growing up in the 70's and 80's I remember radio stations having special 'whole album sides' plays. they'd even give you a count-down before they started the first uninterrupted track.
can't get much more blatant than THAT, can you?
if it was ok then - and the sony/betamax case already established our right to make personal copies of 'media' - what's changed?
what's changed is that media companies see the signaling of the end for their business model. they see they have 5-10 yrs left, if even that. they are trying to milk the system for all its worth, ONE final time.
I was waiting to hear about this, RIAA/MPAA and other have been doing a lot of finger pointing and taking advantage of the legal system to do a lot of their work and people are realizing that RIAA/MPAA is collecting the money bot not necessarily paying the bills for investigation and enforcement.
I have been expecting the pendulum to swing the other way to either strike down these things due to the financial burden on the enforcement/ judicial/ corrections or to start taxing (rightly so) all those poor artists of which they have been protecting their rights.
I have been expecting the pendulum to swing the other way
In reality the pendulum had not swung in the RIAA's direction, it just seemed that way because almost no one was fighting back. Our adversary system of justice requires adversaries. The only difference now is that more people are fighting back. I think the RIAA made a big mistake taking on colleges and universities.
Yeah, that's my college there. My RA got a notice for infringement so his internet was shut off. He's in a room by himself, so he maybe be screwed.
UO is a very progressive school in a liberal town, it's great to hear they're standing up for students. From the article it doesn't sound like they're protecting any of our rights, just complaining that it's difficult for them... Oh well, either way it protects the students.
Yeah, that's my college there. My RA got a notice for infringement so his internet was shut off. He's in a room by himself, so he maybe be screwed. UO is a very progressive school in a liberal town, it's great to hear they're standing up for students. From the article it doesn't sound like they're protecting any of our rights, just complaining that it's difficult for them... Oh well, either way it protects the students.
Yeah, but if you read the litigation documents carefully you'll see they ARE sticking up for the students' rights. They're saying "we're not going to give you someone's name if you don't have evidence that that person did in fact commit a copyright infringement".
When they say "this subpoena would require us to conduct an investigation" they are in effect saying "the RIAA hasn't conducted an appropriate investigation".
In fact, I'll go one step further: when they point out to the Court that the RIAA's evidence doesn't point to a copyright infringer,
-they are saying something that is fully applicable to all of the RIAA's lawsuits, both those against college students and those against the general populace,
-they are only saying what the RIAA has admitted under oath at the Capitol v. Thomas trial and in the deposition of Dr. Jacobson in UMG v. Lindor, and
"The University of Oregon has filed a motion to quash the RIAA's subpoena for information on student identities in what is believed to be the first such motion made by a university with support from the state Attorney General."
Amusingly enough, the University of Oregon's President [uoregon.edu] used to be the state Attorney General. I suspect he had an easier time getting the current AG's support than most university presidents have.
This is all well and good when the party wanting the info happens to be the Bad Guy du jour. I wonder if there's any possible network abuse (spamming, sending death threats, any of the 4 horsemen (terrorist|drugdealer|kidnapper|childpornographer), etc) that might make people question the sense in not having a person accountable for a node's actions.
Also, I suspect that if the university can't find someone to pass the buck to, then it's going to stop with them.
I want to see some media with an "RIAA Free" sticker on it so I know where to spend my money. I recently left grad school for a job that actually pays money, and now I don't really mind paying for records. I just want to know where to plop the cash so that I'm not feeding the beast that would have loved to attack me a year ago.
More and more organizations and people are starting to come around to the realization that the *AA's bullying is just that, basically the schoolyard thug taking the little guy's lunch money (and unfortunately here, much more) on a larger scale.
Agreed. However, when someone says, "We would like to help you bully people, but we just don't have the information you want." they're hardly taking a stand.
I read it as "your evidence doesn't show that the person to whom the IP address is registered is a copyright infringer, and we are prohibited by law from divulging any identity information about anyone else".
RICO is so often brought up in these discussions that I finally went looking to see what it would take to get a RICO indictment and eventual conviction. I'm not so sure that it applies.
Note: I got my RICO information from Wikipedia [wikipedia.org], so take it for what it's worth.
First off, RICO requires that the individual or groups commit two of 35 different crimes. Extortion is in the list, but not many of the other crimes could apply to the RIAA no matter how far we stretch them. I think even extortion is a bit of a stretch. The ones that are even worth considering are:
Extortion
Fraud
Blackmail
Obstruction of Justice
Racketeering
I think we can ignore things like murder-for-hire, slavery, etc.
There's a fine line between extortion and blackmail. In both cases, there's a threat for gain. "Pay up or else!" In extortion, the threat is generally something illegal; for blackmail, the threat is normally something that would be legal, if it weren't being done as part of the threat for gain. Certainly, the RIAA is well within the bounds of legal behavior to bring lawsuits, and the courts are very reluctant to limit access to the courts under any circumstances.
To show extortion, one would need to demonstrate that bringing the suits is, itself, improper. That's not impossible, particularly if we can prove that the RIAA threatened litigation that it knew it couldn't win, but there are other rules for dealing with threats of frivolous lawsuits. My knowledge of that end of the law is pretty shaky — does anybody know what those rules are? Does anyone know if one can use them to demonstrate that the legal threat was, in fact, extortion?
For blackmail, one merely needs to demonstrate that the threat was used for gain. Unfortunately, once again, the courts like to encourage parties to settle. Settlement negotiations are almost impossible to characterize as blackmail.
RICO was written with obstruction of justice in mind. The idea was that organized crime would threaten witnesses, suborn testimony, etc. Some of the things that I've heard in a few RIAA cases do push this line, but I don't think they cross it. There's a big difference between trying to subpoena a minor and depose her outside the presence of her guardian, versus saying "If you testify, I'll kill your pets, your kids, and your grandparents, in alphabetical order."
Fraud only seems to apply if the letters they send out contain fraudulent offers. I'm not sure how this could apply, but it's worth examination.
Racketeering refers to a completely illegal business model - e.g., a "Protection Racket," where you pay for "insurance" against bad things happening to your business — where the bad things are the insurer actively trashing your business. If extortion applies to a large proportion of lawsuits (enough to show a clear, deliberate pattern), then racketeering probably applies as well. However, I don't think extortion could be demonstrated.
Ultimately, much as I'd personally love to see RICO applied, I don't think it does. They key point is that the courts don't like to limit access to the courts, even by a chilling effect. Everybody has a right to their day in court. That, in turn, leads to the abuses we see where a big corporation can afford more and bigger lawyers than small mom-and-pop businesses, who settle cases that they could win because they'd lose more money in legal fees than the settlement.
What we need is a revamp of this part of the legal system. Frankly, I don't see how that can be done without free, government-appointed counsel in every case, which is even less workable than the current system.
If this works... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:If this works... (Score:5, Interesting)
PS.. GO DUCKS!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Rule 45? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Rule 45? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Rule 45? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The beginning of the end? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:The beginning of the end? (Score:5, Insightful)
The year the old "pirate" Napster was being sued, CD sales (IIRC) were at their peak and have been dwindling since. The RIAA boycott (that you have never even once heard about in the mainstream media - hmmm....) must have had some slight effect on the industry.
Their first mistake was to think CD burning technology wouldn't, like all computer technology before it, be affordable for the serfs.
Their second mistake was to try to kill their competetion, the indies, by killing P2P.
Their third mistake was seeing MP3s as "product" rather than "advertising". They have always been known as "record companies", and they sold records. Now they're trying to sell music, and music is a non-tangible item. Note that the indies actually do this, giving away MP3s and selling CDs at their shows.
There were other mistakes - overpricing their wares (an indie CD is usually $5-$10), only having one good song on the CD (my generatiuon was damned lucky, have you ever heard a Led Zepplin song that sucked? There aren't any!), suing their paying customers (DUH!!!!!!) etc.
All their woes are self-inflicted. Now by "suicide" I'm assuming that you'll agree that if a mosquito lands on your foot and you try to kill the mosquito by firing five shots from a sixteen guage shotgun at it and you bleed to death, it's suicide.
-mcgrew [mcgrew.info]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The rest of your argument is unaffected by this, however, and I agree.
The RIAA is obselete on abo
Unfortunately, this is a valid subpoena (Score:2, Interesting)
The U. of Oregon is right that the IP address is insufficient to identify the infringer. But I don't think that is a valid reason to deny a subpoena. Currently, the RIAA knows the alleged infringement came from university. If they can subpoena information that reduces that down to 2 likely suspects, then that is perfectly valid. The fact that this evidence alone cannot identify the individual precisely doesn't mean that they don't have a case.
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Re:Unfortunately, this is a valid subpoena (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Unfortunately, this is a valid subpoena (Score:4, Insightful)
Even the summary clearly indicates that the only thing the University can state with any accuracy is the room that was used, and whether the computer was a PC or a MAC.
This in no-way limits the pool of potential "defendants" to two, (which was also stated in the summary), it simply says that it could have been on-or-the-other of the two room-mates, or any guest they may have ever had, or anyone else who may have had access to the room (i.e. janitorial staff, friends, friends' friends, party guests, etc.).
The University seems to be essentially saying that the scope of the investigation that they would have to undertake in order to comply with the subpoena exceeds the burden the litigant is (or should be?) permitted to impose on them.
-AC
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Umm, hell people don't notice much larger things than someone (say, another student) wandering into someone else's dorm room and futzing with their computer for a whi
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Quite right, too. If you're going to prosecute someone for child porn and ruin their lives, you better be *da
Re:Valid denial for Oregon, but what about elsewhe (Score:3, Informative)
This may be something unique to the University of Oregon, but I would be curious to see if the challenge of the subpoena would stand when applied to other universities. The network architecture at my college was similar. However there were more specific rules involved. In the case of my dorm, each student was assigned a particular IP address, even a physical port in the room. There is also an agreement that is signed by the student that they agree to control access to that access point. (Lots of other nitty details, no routers...etc) Without us falling into the trap of confusing what a judge would decide vs what we as a tech savvy community would want, would it be possible for a University's own access policies to be used against it in a refusal. For UoO, they do appear to have valid claim to deny the request, but it seems that if they were more 'precise' in delivering internet access then they would not be able to refuse the subpoena.
Actually, the holes in the RIAA's "identification" process are not only applicable to all of the other colleges and universities targeted, they're applicable to all of the "John Doe" cases, even those dealing with commercial ISP's.
Re:Unfortunately, this is a valid subpoena (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Unfortunately, this is a valid subpoena (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Of course it reduces the pool (Score:3, Interesting)
It still does not reduce the poool of people by any reasonable amount....
If the room is dual occupancy, and there is evidence that the law was being broken using a PC in that room, and only one occupant of that room has a PC, then I'm sorry, but on balance it's looking like that person was the one breaking the law. Moreover, this is only 5 of the 17 Does. For another 9 of them, they do have the identity of the person whose credentials were used to access the wireless networking facilities, and apparently the argument is just that they can't prove the person who actually access
Re:Of course it reduces the pool (Score:4, Informative)
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RIAA is rubbish. Question here for the law types. (Score:4, Interesting)
I am glad that the U. of Oregon stood up to these guys but it seems that the idea of a warrant or getting this information as being "unduly burdensome" seems pretty broad.
Is there a solid definition in these types of cases for what is really unduly burdensome?
How's their safe harbor doing? (Score:4, Insightful)
If I were an RIAA shark, I'd smell blood in the water.
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> or terminate the accounts of repeat offenders? If they can't do those things,
> does that eliminate their Safe Harbor status?
Short answer, "no".
Slightly longer answer, many services can't do that. Requiring them to would place an impossible burden on anonymous speech.
Re:How's their safe harbor doing? (Score:5, Informative)
Well, yes. But the question is, whose blood?
As I said elsewhere, the U.O. President is a former dean of the U.O. Law School, and a former Attorney General of the State of Oregon. His university bio says he argued seven cases before the US Supreme Court as state AG and won six, and goes on to say that's more cases and a better record than any other contemporary State A.G. Its almost impossible to imagine that the University took this step without consulting him, and it's equally difficult to imagine he's misjudged the strength of their case or that he's afraid to take it all the way to the US Supreme Court.
I think the RIAA's sharks have just bitten a much bigger shark. If they aren't looking for a way to swim away quietly, they're in for a hell of a fight.
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this is not how you defeat the riaa (Score:4, Insightful)
once there was a time when we were nothing but small mammals, and the world was ruled by terrible lizards. in the realm of intellectual property, this is that time. the internet, of course, obliterates the old economic models of distribution. the old economic models are the riaa's sustenance. so you defeat the riaa by waiting for it's food source to dry up
in the meantime, do what little mammals do best: be nocturnal, be quick, be small, be quiet. mask yourself, use proxies, do all manner of obfuscation and security through obscurity. the internet has no legal jurisdiction. don't fight them head on. just hide
there will be of course casualties, even a dying lizard can swing it's tail mightily. but in the end, it will be dead, and we shall inherit the earth. patience my friends. you cannot defeat the terrible lizard head on. just wait for it to die of starvation
it's economic model is history. the only one who doesn't know it is the riaa. there is no reasoning with the terrible beast, it's behaviors are not, and never have been, and never will be rational. you do not reason with a legal attack dog
wait, and the riaa will die. stop trying to reason with the unreasonable
suing soccer moms and grandmothers for thousands of dollars is not the actions of a rational entity. it is the mark of a last desperate stand, and the end is in sight
Re:this is not how you defeat the riaa (Score:5, Insightful)
1. You can't "wait them out" if you're the one that's being sued (or, as in this case, the university that's being put in a position in which it's being forced to violate the law)
2. If you think this motion doesn't have enormous impact, you're wrong.
3. The Capitol v. Thomas case is far from over.
Parent
well i would be foolish to debate you on legal pts (Score:5, Insightful)
for example, in a world where no artist signs with any music label, because they can get more money putting their own shingle on the internet, then the rights of labels that don't exist economically anymore don't have any meaning
it will take time to arrive at this new world, so perhaps we have to wait a lot longer than i might wish
to put it another way: there is a great legal framework in place concerning the rights of player piano music roll manufacturers
but in world where there are no player pianos, except in museums, then what does that legal framework mean?
likewise, i am not going to counter your legal arguments, your legal arguments are 100% correct
but i am going to say that over time, the entire legal realm the arguments you are making exist in will become defunct
it will take awhile, but you have an entire generation of young people who know what i am talking about. when such children are in their 40s and 50s, and are running whatever dried up remains of bertelsmann, coumbia records, etc. still exists, then what will any of this sound and fury really mean anymore?
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Re:i want to attenuate what said in my previous po (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a simple man.
I see some bad guys picking on some defenseless people, I jump in and try to help. Whether I will ultimately win or lose is a matter of indifference to me, because I have no control over the ultimate outcome. What I have control of is that I am fighting on the right side.
All I know about the motion the Oregon State Attorney General made on behalf of the University of Oregon is this:
-it is legally right
-it is morally right
-it's the first time a university or an AG has stepped into this business since it began in February
-the RIAA lawyers can make no intelligible response to it, since it is based on facts which the RIAA's own witnesses have already admitted under oath, and
-it's a terrible blow to the RIAA, once which they never anticipated.
So I'm smiling. And you should be too.
Parent
Re:this is not how you defeat the riaa (Score:4, Informative)
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U of O A Good Place To Start (Score:3, Interesting)
With Phil Knight's money behind them, a former State Attorney General as the head of the school, and a liberal-leaning state, this could really spell out some issues for RIAA.
IP Trace subpoena (Score:5, Insightful)
A subpoena for an IP trace ("tell me who owned this internet access account on this date") is not normally a burden. If the subpoena instead requested the school "identify who was using this computer at this time", the school's response fits. The subpoena requires the school investigate, not just disgorge a few records.
Maybe all the students in the dorm could each claim they were the guilty party? ("I'm Sparticus!")
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A subpoena for an IP trace ("tell me who owned this internet access account on this date") is not normally a burden. If the subpoena instead requested the school "identify who was using this computer at this time", the school's response fits.
From the fine document:
On September 17, 2007, Plaintiffs served the University of Oregon ("University") with a subpoena under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 45, commanding the University to produce
Recycle used CDs, save the planet (Score:5, Insightful)
Back in the day, we used to tape tapes and albums with absolutely no consequences. And we still bought new tapes and albums anyway. Today, we are assumed to be criminals for doing the same thing, only now in digital format. What is a person to do?
I'll think I will stick to used CD stores for now. Reduce, reuse, recycle.
Re:Recycle used CDs, save the planet (Score:5, Interesting)
can't get much more blatant than THAT, can you?
if it was ok then - and the sony/betamax case already established our right to make personal copies of 'media' - what's changed?
what's changed is that media companies see the signaling of the end for their business model. they see they have 5-10 yrs left, if even that. they are trying to milk the system for all its worth, ONE final time.
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Costs of enforcement (Score:5, Insightful)
I have been expecting the pendulum to swing the other way to either strike down these things due to the financial burden on the enforcement/ judicial/ corrections or to start taxing (rightly so) all those poor artists of which they have been protecting their rights.
Re:Costs of enforcement (Score:5, Insightful)
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GO DUCKS! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:GO DUCKS! (Score:5, Informative)
When they say "this subpoena would require us to conduct an investigation" they are in effect saying "the RIAA hasn't conducted an appropriate investigation".
In fact, I'll go one step further: when they point out to the Court that the RIAA's evidence doesn't point to a copyright infringer,
-they are saying something that is fully applicable to all of the RIAA's lawsuits, both those against college students and those against the general populace,
-they are only saying what the RIAA has admitted under oath at the Capitol v. Thomas trial and in the deposition of Dr. Jacobson in UMG v. Lindor, and
-they are in effect sticking up for ALL of us.
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Support of State Attorney General (Score:4, Interesting)
Amusingly enough, the University of Oregon's President [uoregon.edu] used to be the state Attorney General. I suspect he had an easier time getting the current AG's support than most university presidents have.
Anonymity good? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is all well and good when the party wanting the info happens to be the Bad Guy du jour. I wonder if there's any possible network abuse (spamming, sending death threats, any of the 4 horsemen (terrorist|drugdealer|kidnapper|childpornographer), etc) that might make people question the sense in not having a person accountable for a node's actions.
Also, I suspect that if the university can't find someone to pass the buck to, then it's going to stop with them.
RIAA free sticker (Score:3, Interesting)
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Agreed. However, when someone says, "We would like to help you bully people, but we just don't have the information you want." they're hardly taking a stand.
Re:Hopefully More Push-back Follows. (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Hopefully More Push-back Follows. (Score:5, Informative)
RICO is so often brought up in these discussions that I finally went looking to see what it would take to get a RICO indictment and eventual conviction. I'm not so sure that it applies.
Note: I got my RICO information from Wikipedia [wikipedia.org], so take it for what it's worth.
First off, RICO requires that the individual or groups commit two of 35 different crimes. Extortion is in the list, but not many of the other crimes could apply to the RIAA no matter how far we stretch them. I think even extortion is a bit of a stretch. The ones that are even worth considering are:
I think we can ignore things like murder-for-hire, slavery, etc.
There's a fine line between extortion and blackmail. In both cases, there's a threat for gain. "Pay up or else!" In extortion, the threat is generally something illegal; for blackmail, the threat is normally something that would be legal, if it weren't being done as part of the threat for gain. Certainly, the RIAA is well within the bounds of legal behavior to bring lawsuits, and the courts are very reluctant to limit access to the courts under any circumstances.
To show extortion, one would need to demonstrate that bringing the suits is, itself, improper. That's not impossible, particularly if we can prove that the RIAA threatened litigation that it knew it couldn't win, but there are other rules for dealing with threats of frivolous lawsuits. My knowledge of that end of the law is pretty shaky — does anybody know what those rules are? Does anyone know if one can use them to demonstrate that the legal threat was, in fact, extortion?
For blackmail, one merely needs to demonstrate that the threat was used for gain. Unfortunately, once again, the courts like to encourage parties to settle. Settlement negotiations are almost impossible to characterize as blackmail.
RICO was written with obstruction of justice in mind. The idea was that organized crime would threaten witnesses, suborn testimony, etc. Some of the things that I've heard in a few RIAA cases do push this line, but I don't think they cross it. There's a big difference between trying to subpoena a minor and depose her outside the presence of her guardian, versus saying "If you testify, I'll kill your pets, your kids, and your grandparents, in alphabetical order."
Fraud only seems to apply if the letters they send out contain fraudulent offers. I'm not sure how this could apply, but it's worth examination.
Racketeering refers to a completely illegal business model - e.g., a "Protection Racket," where you pay for "insurance" against bad things happening to your business — where the bad things are the insurer actively trashing your business. If extortion applies to a large proportion of lawsuits (enough to show a clear, deliberate pattern), then racketeering probably applies as well. However, I don't think extortion could be demonstrated.
Ultimately, much as I'd personally love to see RICO applied, I don't think it does. They key point is that the courts don't like to limit access to the courts, even by a chilling effect. Everybody has a right to their day in court. That, in turn, leads to the abuses we see where a big corporation can afford more and bigger lawyers than small mom-and-pop businesses, who settle cases that they could win because they'd lose more money in legal fees than the settlement.
What we need is a revamp of this part of the legal system. Frankly, I don't see how that can be done without free, government-appointed counsel in every case, which is even less workable than the current system.
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More like (Score:3, Insightful)
"Thanks"
"What's your father do?"
"Lawyer"
"Nice, What college are you going to?"
"Either Harvard or Yale"
Yeah, I'm sure they weep themselves to sleep at night.