Legalize File Sharing, Say Swedish MPs 545
CrystalFalcon writes "In the past week, the file sharing debate has exploded in Sweden, with numerous mainstream politicians finally having understood the issue. Last week, seven Swedish MPs wrote a prominent opinion piece saying that fully legalized file sharing is not just the best solution, it's the only solution. Now their number has increased to 13, and the issue continues to grow. Good summaries at TorrentFreak and P2P Consortium. Original opinion piece in English here."
Erhm... Astonishment, Joy, Eyebrow-rising... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Erhm... Astonishment, Joy, Eyebrow-rising... (Score:5, Funny)
Accepting immigrants ? (Score:2)
How can I... (Score:2, Funny)
offtopic grammer nazi (Score:5, Funny)
Offtopic spelling nazi (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:offtopic grammer nazi (Score:4, Informative)
Re:offtopic grammer nazi (Score:4, Funny)
Whether he used it correctly or not is neither here nor there.
--Rob
Re:How can I... (Score:4, Informative)
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I've been wondering in similar lines, how they seem to get s
Proud of Sweden (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Proud of Sweden (Score:5, Insightful)
--- SER
Re:Proud of Sweden (Score:5, Funny)
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Hmm, maybe.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Hmm, maybe.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a bit confused about what you mean here.
Who is ignoring copyright infringement and should be penalized for it?
The pirates today are _performing_ infringement.
The Swedish MPs in question want to change the law so that it is _not_ an infringement.
In free countries it is not normal to punish civilians for ignoring the petty crimes of their fellow citizens.
Is it the law enforcers you want to punish, than, if they fail to crack down on file-sharers?
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Re:Hmm, maybe.. (Score:5, Interesting)
a) Force the party suing people to first prove they know the exact person who infringed the copyright - it's kind of like those speed cameras. Since they can't tell who was driving, the fine is $40, no points, and by law they can't be used by insurance companies to raise fees.
b) The punishment matches the crime - If you share a electronic copy of a CD, the retail price is about $8-10, as determined by the market. That would be the maximum punishment. If this is someone who has never been convicted of sharing copyrighted materials, there would be no punishment for a "first offense".
c) The fines/fees from any punishment would be used to fund the arts - this allows the RIAA/MPAA to put their money where their mouths are. They keep saying they're protecting the artist (RIAA), or that every time a movie is copied, then a stuntman or gaffer is put out of work. Well, this allows the arts to flourish, and deters people from sharing copyrighted material.
d) so-called "intellectual property" will be treated as real property, including the levy of "property tax" on the fair market value of the so-called "intellectual property". This would encourage artists and companies to maximize the value of productive property and abandon property that is not productive.
Re:Hmm, maybe.. (Score:5, Insightful)
OMG. This is one of the most insightful ideas concerning copyright since its conception. If anything, this would be a huge leap towards more balance between those that create and those that use that creation, either to consume it or to create something new out of it.
I wouldn't do a "property tax", I'd rather have IP holders pay an annual fee for their creations to "keep" them. That would immediately eliminate all discussions about whether copyright should be 10 years, 20, 50, 70 or infinitly. The IP holder himself could determine how long his property is valuable to him, and release it into public domain as soon as it becomes "worthless". There is so much IP lying around, because it's "worthless", but cannot be used sensibly by anyone because it is still kept under lock by the one holding the rights to it. It could be reused, recycled, in art as collages or music as remixes, and new art could arise out of old. A new art form could emerge out of it.
You, sir, single handedly shaped an idea that could revolutionize the way we handle IP. Please write to your congressman (or whatever similar entity exists in your country)!
Peronal Property Tax (Score:3, Informative)
Total and utter BS. Educate yourself.
Have you never heard of the Personal Property Tax? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax [wikipedia.org]
"In the United States, another form of property tax is the personal property tax, which can target
* automobiles, boats, aircraft and other vehicles;
* other valuable durable goods such as works of art (most household goods and personal effects are usually exempt);
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Re:Hmm, maybe.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Kindly explain why you think it is a bad idea for people to share what they have, and that we should stop them from doing this. Note that this is the exact opposite of what most children are taught is the "right" way to behave.
The internet has finally brought these two fundamentally opposed notions into direct conflict. There can be no compromise between those who want to base society on taking/withholding and those who want to base it on sharing, and that's what we're looking at here.
Do you share your ball with the other kids on the playground, so that you can all enjoy the game, or do you reserve it for the few who can afford to pay you, which means there aren't enough players for a good game but you'll benefit more from it? It's all the same ethical decision at the bottom of it.
Re:And there you have it... (Score:5, Insightful)
That is the democratic way of dealing with it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:That is the democratic way of dealing with it (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the time, the existing politicians sense this is about to happen ahead of time, and change the law themselves.
That's how democracy works. Or at least, how it's supposed to work.
Re:That is the democratic way of dealing with it (Score:4, Insightful)
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You're right, but I'd say you have to consider the [manipulation | omission]-of-information factor in cases like this. I'm not about to go on a "conspiracy" tirade, but I'd doubt the average american knows much more about the Patriot Act than what Bill O'Reilly told them to think about it.
Re:That is the democratic way of dealing with it (Score:4, Interesting)
I actually thought the same and started asking people. Not just friends. I went out on the street, posed as a "survey man" and started asking. It helps when you studied statistics, you know the drill. And you know how to word questions without leading people to answers.
Interesting enough: 63.4% of the people I asked (sample size 1000, taken in a city of about 2 million inhabitants) did not agree with the anti-terror laws that were created (compared to 8.2 percent thinking we need more surveillance, 23.1 percent saying we have adequate laws and 5.3 percent refusing to answer).
Now tell me again, who wants those laws? Barely a third of the people I asked think they're ok or not going far enough, two thirds are telling me they go too far and they don't want them. What "public demand" do you see?
Because it's the right thing to do (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree, but not only because there are so many people pirating, but simply because this is the right thing to do. It's not about pirating or saving a few bucks: one of the primary reasons for the existence of nations is to contribute to the diffusion and development of culture (I live in Italy and here we have this clearly written in one of the first articles of our constitution; the proposed European constitution says pretty much the same thing).
Copyright was established as a state-created monopoly, for a limited time, to encourage the creation and diffusion of artistic works. Not to guarantee an endless stream of money to the MAFIAA lawyers. It's pretty clear that the creation and diffusion of art, music, movies, books, etc. is doing pretty well today (probably better than any other period in human history!) despite, and sometimes thanks to, the huge diffusion of filesharing and piracy.
So there's no need to outlaw it. It's that simple: copyright isn't a law of nature, it was accepted as a compromise to achieve an end and can be changed if necessary.
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1. I dont know it was _ever_ really accepted by the wide public its enforced upon. There never was any kind of a democratic process that yielded and then adopted copyright. It was mandated by kings and emperors hundreds of years ago when most of the people probably didnt even know the word "democracy". Even the often cited Berne convention took place somewhen in the 19th century which you probably wouldnt call all that "democratic" by todays standards. And even if it were
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Re:That is the democratic way of dealing with it (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't mean they don't support the laws against speeding. They usually accept that there has to be a law against it, they just choose to violate it and accept the penalty.
With filesharing people do not agree they are committing a crime.
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and in most instances, so think people who speed. I, for one, don't agree that 60km/h is the proper speed limit for a specific deserted, uninhabited, perfect conditions, three-lane each way avenue in my hometown. The only reason for it to be 60km/h is that it is maintained by the municipality (as opposed to state or union roads). And yeah, they love radar'ing people there.
Re:That is the democratic way of dealing with it (Score:5, Interesting)
People who fileshare will probably agree there is a law against it (you can't argue with fact), but are also probably certain that the law doesn't make any societal sense, and that they are morally fine.
Exactly the same in my view.
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Sure it does, if said speed limits are artificially low. There's a stretch of highway in my town where the posted limit is 55 and the average speed is 70. There isn't an abundance of accidents due to this higher speed and even the cops won't bother pulling you over until you exceed 70. So why is it posted 55?
Many speed limits are set artificially low. They should be raised.
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Most of the time, it is because the speed limit is based on sub-optimal conditions. It is a no-brainer to most drivers that in ice or snow that you should go less than the posted limit (and it is an offense in most jursidictions for driving faster than conditions allow). However, other conditions are not as obvious to most drivers such as rain (which can reduce stopping distance depending on the tire). That is when the cops will care if you are doing more than 55.
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After all, in a democratic country, if a very large percentage of the population willingly infringes a law, there is a very strong case that the law is wrong, not the people.
Truth by majority? Is that how we define truth these days? The fact that the majority infringes a law only says that people ignore the law. It doesn't influence it's validity.
People drive too fast all the time. I mean, who hasn't had a ticket for speeding? However, that doesn't mean that they aren't doing the right thing. They are putting people in jeopardy this way. I can't count the times that I have been nearly hit by a car that was driving WAY too fast and too reckless.
Re:That is the democratic way of dealing with it (Score:5, Interesting)
There are many reason (that have nothing to do with morality) why slavery is not a good idea. Same about many other "morality" related issues. Many times, morality is just a guise, and there are other reasons. The same applies about copyright. I'm sure most
What percentage of people share files? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have never, once, found someone who actually states that they have a moral principle against it.
The whole "piracy is theft" campaign seems as empty as the "don't smoke pot" campaign. People will do it, and just find ways of not getting caught.
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There you go.
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I think I can safely add this to every comment in this thread: the fact that most people do activity x is not really a good argument for legalizing said activity. The reason is that there may be externalities, i.e. third parties suffering from said activity. In most cities in the Middle Ages, garbage was "handled" by thoring it out the window. E
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You can charge for your work even when people are allowed to share files. See radiohead. No, what you want is a right to prevent some six billion people to share something you published until they pay you and you want the state (all of them) to punish everybody who shares it anyway. Your swedish counterparty (and not only they) obviously want to even to force ISPs to snoop on peoples private communication and report them if they share a information you "own", to ea
Not surprised (Score:5, Insightful)
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The most depressing part is that, as far as I've seen, this has been a completely mono-partisan move by dissident memb
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Re:Not surprised (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice strawman. You're conflating privacy issues with copyright issues. The data you mention is generally kept private, out of the public eye. Personally, I actually spend money on keeping that information private.
Data like the latest American Idol hit single is made public, and people spend a lot of money to make it as public as possible.
It's a shame you don't understand the difference between those two sets of information. It makes it impossible to take your argument as anything but the snide remarks of someone who has no clue.
Carefull sweden, you got WMD (Score:5, Funny)
Anyone else think that some one at the media forgot to pay swedish politicians? Don't worry, it will soon be corrected when the politicians all of sudden find they aren't invited to any media social events.
Why Don't More Understand It? (Score:5, Insightful)
It boggles my mind that there aren't more politicians who have figured out this gem of wisdom. Restricting the rights and freedoms OF YOUR VOTERS for the benefit of a corporation or trade organization, who will never be happy and will continue to push for more and more restrictions and limitations, is a sure way to decrease your chances of being re-elected...
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No you have that backwards. The RIAA have deep pockets. They can buy politicians by the barrel full. Politicians will continue to flock to the RIAA banner as long as they pay. The political system runs on money not votes. Get that straight and it will all make more sense.
In this case the RIAA apparently failed to make a timely donation to the politicians in question. That will be rectified soon.
Attn: Sweden (Score:5, Funny)
Are we all singing off the same songsheet (Score:5, Informative)
FTA:
That's not the same as the synopsis:
Now, I RTFA and it reads to me that he feels that the media/IP industries will never be satisfied with what the state does and that he doesn't feel it's the states place to police the Internet. Both of these are admirable and sensible statements, in line with what many people actually think.
But I really don't think he is advocating Sweden as some sort of torrent haven as some posters seem to be suggesting.
Re:Are we all singing off the same songsheet (Score:5, Informative)
As I have met the man in question, I am well aware of his points and arguments.
Re:Are we all singing off the same songsheet (Score:4, Informative)
Berne Convention (Score:2)
Wouldn't the Berne Convention make it hard for Sweden to implement this?
I guess they could always withdraw from the Convention, but almost certainly not without international political consequences.
Re:Berne Convention (Score:4, Insightful)
The Berne convention leaves a lot open to interpretation.
Rick Falkvinge (the leader of the Swedish Pirate Party) has written a great analysis of this on his blog -- unfortunately it's in Swedish
Rick Falkvinge: Sverige kan legalisera fildelning imorgon [falkvinge.com]
There are a lot of nice quotes from various treaties that show just how much flexibility a signatory to a treaty is -- some of them in English.
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The existence or even the prevalence of authorised copies on the Internet do not make it impossible to sell authorised copies. Whether that is hurting or helping the market for authorised copies is debatable -- clearly not "destroying the commercial market for private copies" "beyond a shadow of a doubt". The market for copies is n
Supporting Argument (Score:2)
13 MPs are not enough (Score:3, Informative)
I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open for updates on this, though.
And in closing... (Score:3, Funny)
More Laws... (Score:3, Interesting)
Q: Is there a problem with our laws?
A: Our laws are perfect.
Q: Then why do people disobey them?
A: Because our laws will only lead to one possible outcome.
Q: What outcome?
A: Revolution.
And that leaves us with today: It's a revolution, starting slowly, one country at a time.
People wont adhere to the laws that confine us. When people view what they do as perfectly natural, perfectly legal, it becomes harder and harder to keep them from doing it. Information *wants* to be free. And all the laws, all the digital locks, all the copyrights in the world will not stop it.
So why not let it be free?
Revolution my friends, mark my words.
Re:Sure, (Score:5, Informative)
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The claim is that many hookers are not selling sex out of their free will, and that given an alternative, they would stop selling sex. Thus, the legislators did not feel like coming down hard on a group that already has a difficult time.
Re:Sure, (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Sure, (Score:5, Insightful)
A CD here in stockholm cost more or less 150 SEK, of that about 10 SEK go to the copyright holders. If I want to buy a song online, the price at www.ahlens.se is 12.90 SEK.
From that I can easily see that although the distribution-cost practically has vanished, the media industry still want the same price for the music. They are ripping us of. A fair price for an album would be 30 SEK, 10 SEK for the distributor and 20 SEK for the artist. And a fair price for a song would be 3 SEK.
The problem with the copyright law is that it allow these abuses, and it enables the media industry to undermine our integrity and rights society through spending vasts amount on lobbying.
That is why copyright is Evil.
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Not the artists, us! (Score:3, Insightful)
It is not, it is allowing US to get screwed over by the recording labels/Hollywood. Think about it: copyright is very much like a patent in that it grants a monopoly for a limited period of time in order to encourage creativity. The difference is that the "customer" for patent holders are often other firms and it is certainly other firms which have their rights limited most by patents. Now compare the
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It is my freedom that they are stealing, with the legal structure of copyright as an excuse. I am not saying that they should take away protection from copyright-holders, I am saying that copyright law is being abused and it has to change.
Re:Sure, (Score:5, Insightful)
a) worked on many different TV shows
b) worked for a record company
c) have a couple of patents
and d) I write.
Of course, you'd know of d alrady - I wrote the piece for TorrentFreak.
The point of the pieces through, isn't abolishing copyright, returning to anarchy, but instead that attempting to criminalise a large section of the population, because an industry hasn't moved on, nor learned from past attempts (with the VCR and MP3 players specifically mentioned).
I just hope your writing is a damned sight better than your reading comprehension.
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Re:Sure, (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sure, (Score:5, Insightful)
Now here's my perspective:
I have not created anything that I have been paid for, but that is not for lack of trying. I have wanted to create comic books since the 1970s.
To get the @$$-holes out of the way, let's just agree to say that my work sucks and is not worth publishing. There, now we can probably discuss this as adults. :)
Here is the situation after a few decades:
I was NOT willing to travel to New York to work for slave wages in the offices of Marvel or DC; therefore, I stayed in sunny California, got a real job that paid my bills and allowed me time to work on my "hobby".
After several decades I have a decent retirement account built up, I have had paid vacations, sick-time (that I have periodically abused), a real career, regular decent pay checks that have enabled me to buy a very large house in the not-cheap San Francisco Bay Area. I still work on my "hobby". I hope to one day publish my work.
On the flip side, I hear horror stories of some of the comic creators whose work I enjoyed as a child not having basic medical care in the older years. Some live in poverty!
True, a few have made out like bandits, notably the Image comics guys (they were all guys, weren't they?). By and large though, I seem to be better off NOT having "succeeded". I get a chill trying to imagine my life if I had gone to work for Marvel of DC in the seventies or eighties.
Copyright law did not protect the creators of my youth! In fact, the "Work For Hire" provisions FUCKED OVER people I admire and respect!
I do NOT want to eliminate copyright, I just want FUCKING POLITICIANS to remember that copyright is a benefit We the People grant to creators for a temporary time, not for FUCKIN' ETERNITY!
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I tried to purchase "intimate services" just a couple of months ago, and the only people who would offer it were Chinese immigrants (nothing wrong with that, I like asians) - and only under extreme secrecy.
Again, please remember that Europe isn't one big Eastern equivalent of the US - the countries in Europe are very diverse and have very different laws. And no, Sweden and Swit
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Sorry, my mind took things a bit further. The "one way" that I imagined involved more fallout across Europe than the aftermath of Chernobyl [wikipedia.org] and missile trails tracing back across the Atlantic!
Re:So much for Sweden (Score:5, Insightful)
Hi! Could you also tell me next week's Powerball numbers?
I'm sorry, that's just bullshit. If what you speculate was anywhere NEAR the mark, the **AA's would have already coerced ISPs to block sites like Pirate Bay. That they haven't should speak volumes about your theory.
Insightful indeed.
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Re:So much for Sweden (Score:5, Funny)
A word of warning before crossing the pond:
But if this is not too daunting, you're very welcome to join!
Third largest exporter of music (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Third largest exporter of music (Score:4, Funny)
That's a lot of Abba CDs.
Re:What took them so long? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:What took them so long? (Score:4, Insightful)
So yes, it would be a net gain. There would be at least one country in the world that values its citizen's privacy.
Re:What took them so long? (Score:4, Informative)
Ahrem... just because the country barely has 9 million people doesn't mean they have little IP. The cool thing with Sweden is that it has IP where it matters and LOADS of it.
ABB, Ericsson, Tetra Laval... I could go on.
That you got 5 mod points is insulting.
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Re:What took them so long? (Score:4, Insightful)
OTOH, you could argue that for music, most of the money will shift to live concerts, and for gaming, most of the money will shift to on-line gaming. This would mean that a not unlikely future would create huge problems for the movie industry (where Sweden has little to lose) but less problems for the areas where Sweden is comparatively strong.
That would be overthinking the issue from the point of view of the MP's. They just argue that civil liberties are more important than copyright infringements, and that's that. Quite reasonable, IMHO.
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Sweden produces very little IP of its own, and probably never will
Put down the Nokia, step away from the Volvo and stop taking those AstraZeneca drugs.
I think you'll find that Sweden has a HUGE number of companies that generate considerably more patents (and therefore IP) per capita than the US
source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pat_gra_percap-economy-patents-granted-per-capita [nationmaster.com]
Keep scrolling down, past Latvia... and Mongolia... and Kazakhstan... and you find the US in 40th position.
Now admittedly, you're actually talking about copyright IP, pertaining (mainly)
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Re:What took them so long? (Score:5, Funny)
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According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Economy [wikipedia.org]:
"Sweden is an export-oriented market economy featuring a modern distribution system, excellent internal and external communications, and a skilled labour force. [...] Telecommunications, the automotive industry and the pharmaceutical industries are also of great importance. Agriculture accounts for 2 percent of GDP and employment.
Re:Generous with OPM. (Score:4, Funny)
Is "erotica" the same as "culture"?
Re:Generous with OPM. (Score:5, Funny)
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Mods... (Score:2)
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