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United States Science

State of US Science Report Shows Disturbing Trends 574

coondoggie writes to mention that the National Science Board is concerned about certain indicators in the science and engineering fields for the United States. "For example, US schools continue to lag behind internationally in science and math education. On the other hand, the US is the largest, single, R&D-performing nation in the world pumping some $340 billion into future-related technologies. The US also leads the world in patent development."
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State of US Science Report Shows Disturbing Trends

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  • Sooo... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by calebt3 ( 1098475 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:18PM (#22095722)
    ...we spending the most money, on the dumbest researchers?
  • Patent Devlopment? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Serenissima ( 1210562 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:20PM (#22095762)
    Are we saying that Patent Trolling is the same thing as Developing?
  • by jgarra23 ( 1109651 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:21PM (#22095780)
    This is a natural cycle of markets. (or greed, or laziness or whatever...) now the US is resting on their laurels, reaping the benefits of engineers past and eventually will pay dearly economically for this culture's unwillingness to churn out better engineers.... and 70 years from now you'll probably see another surge of ingenuity and wonder in western-hemisphere technology.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by __aaclcg7560 ( 824291 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:23PM (#22095826)
    Nope. We're spending the most money on smart researchers hired (and sometimes better educated) from outside of the United States. It's just not economical to grow smart talent at home.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cozziewozzie ( 344246 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:24PM (#22095856)

    ...we spending the most money, on the dumbest researchers?


    Hardly, as many of the world's brightest researchers end up in the US.

    A more interesting question is how much all that patent business is increasing the costs of R&D in the US and the West in general. Because one of the unlucky consequences of patents is that once a wheel is patented, it has to be reinvented 20 times, carefully treading around the patent each time.
  • Hypocrisy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Raul654 ( 453029 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:26PM (#22095890) Homepage
    It seems to me to be the height of hypocrisy that business leaders (Gates and company) complain about a lack of scientifically/technologically trained Americans, and thus we need to increase H1-B visas. These same leaders then turn around and support republican candidates who don't believe in evolution and want to water down the science curriculum by introducing Intelligent Design.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Znork ( 31774 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:26PM (#22095902)
    Well, at least the US has the worlds most expensive research. Which may, perhaps, be due to the costs of having such a high number of patents.

    Nothing drives costs like lawyers.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by clampolo ( 1159617 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:29PM (#22095954)
    This is bullshit. If foreigners are so smart, why do they have to come to the US for jobs?
    Why are people surprised noone wants to go into engineering in the US: stagnant wages, offshoring, age discrimination, long hours. It's a shitty way to waste $100k on an education.
  • No wonder.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by necro2607 ( 771790 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:29PM (#22095958)
    This is going to sound really cynical, but I feel inclined to say: No wonder current tech is not forward-thinking and is only innovating at a "comfortable" pace. You know, the kind of pace that enables companies to really milk as much as they can out of products without having to do very much R&D to improve the tech.

    This is why we are still using countless seperate devices for our various everyday communication/information needs that can't communicate with each other, and why the concept of "integration" of the technological extensions of ourselves is largely overlooked. Oh, it's also why we pay $50+mo for, frankly, the most basic of cell phone and internet connectivity, for example. Companies that have the funds to do amazing R&D and amazing advances in the "human" aspects of technology aren't bothering, because they're rich as hell one way or another - they can crawl along at a comfortable pace with no problem (especially because "everyone else is doing it too").

    Yeah, a bit of a tangent there, but I've been thinking about this stuff a lot lately. You know, we 100% have the means for technology to be so much more, but it's as though no one cares.
  • by mu51c10rd ( 187182 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:30PM (#22095980)
    Is this truly a good thing. Are US patents even valid outside the US (ie international treaties that govern patents)? There seems to be a big difference between using R&D to come up with commercially-viable products and generating patents of ideas that may or may not be viable.
  • by nerdonamotorcycle ( 710980 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:30PM (#22095988)
    This is what happens when a culture has a profound anti-intellectual streak, and when those who epitomize dogma and religious faith start winning out in the court of public opinion over those who believe in science and empiricism.

    Consider:

    • creationism vs. evolution
    • abstinence-only sex education
    • the war on drugs, which emphasizes prohibition (based mostly on dogma) over harm reduction (based on empiricism--"what works")
  • "It's so hard!" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ProteusQ ( 665382 ) <dontbother@nowDE ... om minus painter> on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:30PM (#22095990) Journal
    That's what I hear from my freshman-sophomore math majors nearly every day. Sorry to pass the buck, but I suspect that HS math is either dumbed down or grade inflation prevents the kids and their parents and their parents' lawyers from complaining too much. So, they get A's in a "hard" subject, get lots of kudos because this must indicate that they're smart, and so some decide (quite logically) to choose math as a major in college.

    Then if you get a prof who expects excellent performance for an A, average for a C, and F if you never did work enough to catch on, and then their world turns absolutely upside-down.

    Should students study harder? Absolutely. And _13 years_ of public education ought to provide adequate training in how to study. If not, we'll get more of these "disturbing" trends.
  • by Alain Williams ( 2972 ) <addw@phcomp.co.uk> on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:37PM (#22096120) Homepage
    That is an indication that the USA leads the world in the number of lawyers in employment, doesn't say much about the number of scientists.
  • by Kenrod ( 188428 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:37PM (#22096144)
    The greatest challenge in education is the disintegration of two-parent families and strong communities. This is particularly pronounced in minority communities. The very occasional teaching of ID in public classrooms is probably not even a factor. But I guess confronting real problems isn't as much fun as kicking religious people, is it?
  • by buddyglass ( 925859 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:38PM (#22096150)
    U.S. students don't underperform their international peers because the school system sucks (although, it does suck). They underperform for two reasons. One is demographics. The U.S. has a much larger lower class than do most other nations to which it is compared. Kids who grow up in poverty with terrible home situations will, surprise surprise, not shine when it comes to academic performance. The second reasons is cultural. If you look at kids not from this underclass, a disproportionate number lack the desire to acquire math/science skills, or, really, the desire to excel academically in any field. One possible contributor to this is that students in the U.S. needn't pass an exit exam in order to graduate high school and enter college. The other is general cultural malaise, but it's harder to define that in any exact sense. There is a "culture of achievement" present in some countries (Japan and Germany come to mind) that is simply lacking in the United States.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:39PM (#22096164) Journal
    They come because there's a market here, and one that isn't being filled domestically. This is pretty simple economics.
  • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:43PM (#22096272) Homepage Journal
    I'll be devil's advocate here and suggest that the average scores don't mean much.

    Does it matter that somebody with the median score in high school math isn't particularly good at it, if he's working as a salesman or a mechanic?

    Now, I could argue in a liberal arts kind of way that it does matter, because with a better grasp of science these people will be better informed citizens. But from a vocational standpoint, you want to know that if there are N slots for graduates with science skills, the top N science students are very good indeed. And since every job that requires science skills requires strong math skills (but not necessarily vice versa), you want more students to be good at math, but not necessarily every student.

    The trend is towards business giving up on American science, engineering, and know-how in general. So why spend four years after high school gaining skills that aren't wanted? Why spend the money to increase student performance when we can enjoy the use of that money today, and it won't make any difference to their lives except maybe in some kind of woolly headed liberal notion of citizenship? If we were really concerned about the future of our students, it'd be like beating the Soviets in the Cold War, no effort to improbable of success to try, no cost to outrageous to bear.

    It doesn't pay to be better than the rest of the world but get paid more as well. You've got to be a better value. Therefore by in the name of business efficiency, Americans deserve to see their incomes drop until they're on a par with India and China. When the few Americans who, despite economizing on our schools, have attained some level of scientific or engineering skill look like an incredible bargain, the jobs will come back.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by clampolo ( 1159617 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:44PM (#22096280)
    That's kind of my point. The market here is being filled domestically because it's a crappy career choice. When people were being paid well and treated well in the late 90's people were flocking to engineering. Now there are less and less engineering majors because people know they are much better off with a medical degree, law degree, or going into finance.
  • by Joce640k ( 829181 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:44PM (#22096282) Homepage
    Is the R&D figure still bigger than other countries when it's expressed as a percentage?

    How much of the "R&D budget" is spent developing new weapons?

  • "Basic" Reasearch (Score:3, Insightful)

    by omris ( 1211900 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:45PM (#22096304)
    what i see as most disturbing not only in the article, but in the responses, is that no one seems to worry about what is referred to as "basic" research anymore. basic research is the research you do to figure out what is happening in a system normally, figuring out how it's supposed to work. this is the first step in ANY major breakthrough, no matter the field.

    but it's the least funded.

    i work in basic research in the medical field. the NIH is currently funding between 9 and 10 PERCENT of the proposals handed to them. hopefully they are picking the cream of the crop. we don't lack the manpower. there are LOTS of capable people to do the work. it's funding. there is VERY little funding for research unless someone stands to make a great deal of money from it. the problem is, most of the important things we need to figure out are not going to make anyone a pile of money. they may, down the line. but it isn't that likely.

    call me a socialist, but the government needs to get the act together and push their funding toward basic research, and let industry pay for R&D.
  • by peragrin ( 659227 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:45PM (#22096308)
    Actually look to europe first for the next big technology group. China is still only copying ideas.

    The first big sign of the downfall of the USA is when OPEC switches Oil from Dollars to Euros to make more money.
  • Re:"It's so hard!" (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 192939495969798999 ( 58312 ) <info AT devinmoore DOT com> on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:46PM (#22096318) Homepage Journal
    The problem in the US is that we stopped teaching how to study/learn, and only teach how to memorize for some SAT and then forget...or rather, that's the emphasis. You can still learn, but you have to want to learn... and since peer pressure in HS says that knowing things is "dumb"(!), you can guess the outcome. Yay!
  • Re:Hypocrisy (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rucs_hack ( 784150 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:46PM (#22096322)
    It seems to me to be the height of hypocrisy that business leaders (Gates and company) complain about a lack of scientifically/technologically trained Americans, and thus we need to increase H1-B visas. These same leaders then turn around and support republican candidates who don't believe in evolution and want to water down the science curriculum by introducing Intelligent Design.

    True, but those very same republicans are big business friendly, and few systems that fail are able to detect or admit that failure themselves, it usually takes an outside observer to say something first, which they either deny and fail, or accept and change.

    As for not believing in evolution, well thats a political stance designed to keep them in with the religious bods who provide a lot of funding. I seriously doubt an Atheist would get selected for high office. For a country where religion and state are seperate, there sure is a lot of religious posturing among your leaders.
  • by gardyloo ( 512791 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:46PM (#22096344)

    The very occasional teaching of ID in public classrooms is probably not even a factor.
    But I guess confronting real problems isn't as much fun as kicking religious people, is it?
    I doubt anyone would really argue that support from home is not a strong factor in a child's educational success. However, why not confront all the problems we can, including the mindset that comes along for the ride with ID?
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by CodeBuster ( 516420 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:47PM (#22096358)

    If foreigners are so smart, why do they have to come to the US for jobs?
    They come here precisely because they are smart. As bad as the US government is in terms of taxation and economic policy it is still easier for a smart individual to get ahead in the United States than it is in many other parts of the world. Thus, in light of the higher pay, lower taxes, better recognition for intellectual accomplishments (i.e. bonus, raises, and promotions) it is easy to see why many smart people, particularly in medical research for example, choose to work in the United States, if possible, rather than remain in their native country where they will take a bath in taxes and generally receive less financial reward for their work. Does this answer your question?

    Why are people surprised noone wants to go into engineering in the US: stagnant wages, offshoring, age discrimination, long hours.
    Perhaps, but even so it is still better than many of the alternatives. I often hear the lament, particularly from new college graduates, that offshoring is killing their job opportunities or that their wages are stagnant and any number of other gripes with the possible exception of age discrimination. Personally, I think that these perceptions have more to do with the so called "praise generation" which was raised by their parents with statements like "you're special", "award for participation", and "it's not important what other people think, but only how you feel about yourself". Is it any wonder that we have raised a generation of young adults who have a highly inflated opinion of themselves with insatiable egos who think that the world is their oyster and should dance to their tune? Many of these praise generation youths are getting their first taste of the real world now and they are shocked with the realities of not making 100k right out of college, not having the luxury car and the fancy house, and generally not being the all important center of attention. All I can say is, "welcome to the first day of the rest of your life".
  • by Silicon_Knight ( 66140 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:48PM (#22096388)
    As an immigrant kid that went to high school here, I'll define that "culture malaise" for you. Academics just isn't given as high a recognition in American schools. The HS football game, the HS football team, the cheerleaders get paraded, and it's cool to be a jock. When's the last time you see the Math team, the Chess team, or the Academic Decathlon team get that sort of "hero's welcome"?
  • by HungSoLow ( 809760 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:49PM (#22096394)
    I agree that the parent / community plays an integral role in intellectual development. That being said, if a community does not place great importance on truth and consistently uses baseless arguments to critique well-founded theories in science (evolution, big bang, etc..) then why would any child in this environment that develops into an adult want a career in science?

    You're right, parents and strong communities are critical - but it's distortion of truth by said people that is the REAL problem.
  • by Tsiangkun ( 746511 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:54PM (#22096532) Homepage
    The religious have been used as a pawn for the party of big business. Maybe if they voted in their communities best interests, and left religion in thier chruch and private homes, we wouldn't need both parents working 6 days a week.
  • by Micrope Rex ( 960359 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @01:56PM (#22096558) Homepage
    The problem also lies with legal immigration. As someone with experience in and published a thesis on control systems, I find it impossible to get a dream job without having at least a Greencard. The problem is applying for a Greencard will rob me of at least, at least 5K$ if not about 10K$ (all about the right lawyer, you see). After that, comes the waiting game. How long? About 4 years at least! Longer, normally. So you see, after a couple of years, I am thinking! Heck! Screw this. I am going home. After all research opportunities are much better than what they used to be a decade ago. This reverse brain drain (Trust me, the home country has been lamenting about brain drain for decades) is going to further affect the R&D scope here.
  • by TastyCakes ( 917232 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:02PM (#22096674)
    I'm sorry... Is this a troll? American freedoms "vastly outclass the rest of the world"? Centralized education is a mighty fist of the state? Have you been reading a bunch of captain america comics or something? Exactly how ass backwards do you think the rest of the world is? "Freedom" doesn't generate research, money does and America is a large portion of the world economy. That's about all there is to it. China is a rapidly growing competitor in research, are new "freedoms" there responsible for this? The USSR had a massive research infrastructure, was that due to freedom of any kind beyond the government having the idea that technological advancement is a good thing?

    As for your second statement, centralization isn't the issue with education, the fact that a huge number of highschool students are coming out of american schools largely uneducated is. I should think the last thing we would want is to continue churning out increasingly economically uncompetitive students, whether that's done through centralized means or other (what do you even mean by "centralized"?) seems secondary.
  • by bcattwoo ( 737354 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:03PM (#22096706)

    This is what happens when a culture has a profound anti-intellectual streak, and when those who epitomize dogma and religious faith start winning out in the court of public opinion over those who believe in science and empiricism.
    If anything the U.S. has gotten more and more secular as science and math education and achievement have declined. The religious have gotten more outspoken but really religion's influence over people's lives has gotten less and less. The current resurgence of religious sway probably has not helped, but the U.S. has been backsliding for a while now. I think that there are other cultural/socioeconomic factors at work here.
  • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:04PM (#22096736) Homepage
    Also consider....

    It's uncool to be smart.
    Black kids getting good grades are assaulted and told they are "acting white"
    Schools cut science programs but fund additional athletic programs.
    Society rewards and promotes the stupid jock and vilifies and puts down the smart geek.
    Media further promotes the above stereotypes and problems.

    THERE's the start of your problem. Kids are not smart because you are a dork for being smart. fix that and you fix almost everything else.

    BTW: this problem started in the 60's.
  • by Tsiangkun ( 746511 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:05PM (#22096740) Homepage
    Science is not anti-religion. We don't waste our time trying to prove religion is false.

    Religion is anti-science. The religous do pick fights with existing scientific explanations, but in a non-testable "god did it" kind of way.

    I don't hate the religious, I pity the ignorant. I see ignorance and lack of education as a more serious threat to this country than any foreign terrorist organization.
  • Re:No wonder.. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jbeaupre ( 752124 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:05PM (#22096754)
    You're always welcome to start your own company to provide the devices and services you crave. With blackjack and hookers if you want.
  • by Monsuco ( 998964 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:06PM (#22096774) Homepage

    Wait, you mean in a nation where whole chunks of the population teach their kids that the world was created by an invisible sky daddy in six days isn't leading the pack in science education? We'd better pray harder!
    Putting your anti-religious bigotry aside I would like to point out that more than 90% of the world's population believes in a religion. This figure has remained pretty high all through world history, and science has continued. Any one who believes religion is blocking science has clearly paid more attention to the 1% of the time when it has instead of the 99% of the time it hasn't.
  • by Quadraginta ( 902985 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:07PM (#22096802)
    It's not a paradox. Look, do we imagine that everybody is capable of being a first class brilliant scientist or engineer? Clearly not. Therefore, if you have a system where the difference between the best and the worst (in any field) is small, then you have a system which fails to promote the best. You have a system where everyone is at the "average" level, and the people who ought to stand out, don't, for whatever reason.

    On the other hand, if you have a system where the difference between the best and the average is high, what does that tell you? It tells you the system works well to promote the best and give them the tools they need to produce. Fact is, there is a natural heirarchy of ability among human beings in any field. Most are at some ordinary level, and only a few are very good. If you don't see the natural ability heirarchy reflected in the accomplishment heirarchy, then something is wrong. Since it's impossible to bring ordinary folk up to the extraordinary level, what must be happening is that the extraordinary folks are being held down (which is fairly easy to do).

    Compare to sports. The difference between your average high-school athlete and Olympic or world-class athletes has never been greater, and the very few at the very top are amazing. Do we look at this pyramid of accomplishment and say, gee, there must be something wrong with how we promote and train people in sports, because there are so few at the top? Because the average 35-year-old pick-up basketball player, measured on the same scale that includes the championship Los Angeles Lakers, sucks? Not if we have any brains, we don't. We realize that the better a system is at sifting and placing people according to their abilities and motivation, the more pronounced the heirarchy, the greater the difference between the best and all the rest. Only in some doofus Lake Wobegon mode of (non)thinking do we imagine that a successful system would look non-heirarchical, with everyone above average.

    The fact that heirarchies of accomplishment are more evident in the United States than elsewhere is no proof that the mass of people are being held down. It may well be evidence that in the United States the best are better able to rise to the top, to find their natural level of achievement, whereas in other places considerations of social class, restrictive groupthink education, or cultural barriers to personal ambition and radical innovation tend to keep the best from ever showing their stuff and emerging above the sea of average folk.
  • by rhakka ( 224319 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:09PM (#22096834)
    wow, nice try.

    Religion has been omnipresent for most of human history. By that definition, nearly everything humans have ever done have been done "when religion and religious influence where strong". Including our greatest atrocities, the dark ages, pogroms, crusades, witch hunts, etc...

    However, the fact that the last 50 years has seen a diminishing influence of religion and also the greatest period of social and technology progress that humanity has ever seen, if you chose to be intellectually honest rather than extremely selective, would seem to indicate that perhaps religion and religious influence are not quite as helpful as you might seem to think. At best, you would be forced to conclude that it is irrelevant when considering its impact on progress, and more honestly you might have to conclude that it might actually be harmful to progress.

    But, keep clinging to that fantasy, troll.
  • by JustNiz ( 692889 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:10PM (#22096846)
    >> with a better grasp of science these people will be better informed citizens.

    No, these people are a threat and exactly the type of people the US government are trying to stamp out.
    What most governments are working hard at is to turn the whole of society into sheeplike ill-informed taxpayers that fill their days with harmless trivia (paris hilton, religion, consumerism, etc) as they are the easiest to control.
  • by moosesocks ( 264553 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:10PM (#22096872) Homepage
    Perhaps.

    Over the past few decades, most US firms have found it beneficial to decouple development from manufacturing. Consequently, intellectual property rights must be respected and protected, in order to prevent the manufacturing firms from raping the R&D guys.

    In the current US economy, we do have a legitimate need for a good patent system given these circumstances. It also does have various other beneficial effects, as it makes it considerably easier for small/new companies to develop and market products that would otherwise require considerable infrastructure to manufacture.

    Whether or not the current patent system is good or not is another debate entirely, although I'm personally of the opinion that it needs to be seriously reformed to better balance the needs of the patent holders with consumers, cut down on the number of junk patents being filed, prevent exorbitant licensing fees, etc....
  • by sydbarrett74 ( 74307 ) <<sydbarrett74> <at> <gmail.com>> on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:16PM (#22097008)
    Anti-intellectualism has been an attribute of American culture since colonial days. In Democracy In America, Alexis de Tocqueville states that whilst Europeans value erudition, Americans value wit and cleverness. Here is an exact quotation:

    Taken as a whole, literature in democratic ages can never present, as it does in the periods of aristocracy, an aspect of order, regularity, science, and art; its form, on the contrary, will ordinarily be slighted, sometimes despised. Style will frequently be fantastic, incorrect, over- burdened, and loose, almost always vehement and bold. Authors will aim at rapidity of execution more than at perfection of detail. Small productions will be more common than bulky books; there will be more wit than erudition, more imagination than profundity; and literary performances will bear marks of an untutored and rude vigor of thought, frequently of great variety and singular fecundity. The object of authors will be to astonish rather than to please, and to stir the passions more than to charm the taste.
    Keep in mind that the first edition was published in 1835, so this phenomenon is hardly new.
  • Re:"It's so hard!" (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Black Art ( 3335 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:20PM (#22097114)
    It is worse than that. You are punished for taking hard courses.

    If you expect to get into a good college, you have to have a pristine GPA. In order to get that, you have to cut back on courses that are hard. If you take hard course you will learn more, but you may not score as well. So doing hard things loses out.

    I had a crappy GPA in high school. I took the hardest courses I could find. I learned a lot, but it made getting into a good college next to impossible.

    The system is rigged against those who want an intellectual challenge. Until we change that, the rest is a foregone conclusion.
  • by tknn ( 675865 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:21PM (#22097140) Homepage
    That is why countries like Finland, which has a higher divorce rate than the US, top the rankings? Stop pushing your "morality" based agenda without facts to back it up.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by drooling-dog ( 189103 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:36PM (#22097464)

    They come here precisely because they are smart. As bad as the US government is in terms of taxation and economic policy it is still easier for a smart individual to get ahead in the United States than it is in many other parts of the world.
    Taxation and economic policy is only a small part of it. A bigger part is that the U.S. still has the best research infrastructure in the world, and if you want to do state-of-the-art science, it is still where it's at. If you're in a scientific career, that's far more important to you than how much you'll pay in taxes.

    Flip through any professional scientific or engineering journal, and look at the names of the authors of the papers. You may see U.S. institutional affiliations, but the names will be from all over: Europe, China, India, etc. The U.S. benefits greatly from this influx of talent and brainpower, so let's not keep screwing it up by needlessly harrassing foreign scientists at the border just because we can. The de facto War on Science and Reason being waged by certain political elements in this country doesn't help much, either.
  • by GreatBunzinni ( 642500 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:37PM (#22097478)

    Perhaps our freedoms, which while not spectacular, vastly outclass the rest of the world, allow our best and brightest to vastly outperform the best and brightest of more nations?

    That's a nice view and all and it may even give you that fuzzy feeling in your tummy but unfortunately it doesn't have anything to do with reality. At all. The US's R&D success was accomplished and is maintained through a single factor: money. Lots of money. It has absolutely nothing to do with freedom nor other patriotic drivel. The US is a very rich nation that dumps loads of cash into research. If you happen to be a talented researcher who happens to like receiving recognition in the form of cold hard cash then you will find that combination attractive, specially if your current job doesn't offer you the research funding you need and your current salary is less than 2000 dollars a month.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:39PM (#22097532)
    I don't know what America you grew up in, but in my part of America, I knew plenty of kids who were raised in single parent households and did just fine. "Strong communities" and "two-parent families" are and have always been myths perpetrated by religious and social organizations as tools to increase their power.

    Religious organizations benefit when everybody is dropping by on their pre-determined day and putting money in the collection plate. Their monetary power increases. Their social power increases too because maybe, just maybe some of those who attend will listen and follow the precepts and guidelines of that religion and support policies and causes that the church wants. One of the tools that these religious organizations use is the spiritual myth of marriage and the talking point that only sanctioned (who performs the weddings?) and married people are socially, spiritually, and monetarily qualified to have children. Hence the myth that two-parent households are better.

    Social organizations benefit from strong communities as well, but not in the same way as religious organizations. Social organizations, led by people who have a personal agenda, want members. Members are votes to them, and dues are more money in the coffers to fight for what the head of the organization wants. The more people they have listening to them, the more money they have coming in, and the more votes they can drum up to support their leader's personal agenda. These organization benefit from a strong, tightly knit community who all belong one or several of these organizations. It makes their power grab easier to pull off. Hence the myth that strong communities are better.

    Both of these systems are wide open to manipulation and are tools to control you. Education is to free you. These organizations are the opposite of that freedom. Their impact on education is the opposite of what you claim - they stifle personal freedom and destroy the environment of learning and education that they claim to promote.

    The real problems are lack of parental involvement in education and a culture controlled by religious and social organizations. Parental involvement is important, but the elimination of the influence of social organizations and mass media is just as important. Systems that cannot be thrown off as of yet because of the lack of intelligence and the complete indoctrination of these organizations values and norms into children as a result of public education.
  • by goldspider ( 445116 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:45PM (#22097628) Homepage
    ...not just science and math.

    First of all, to the people who blame this trend on I.D., give it a rest. Our education system has far greater problems to confront, such as:

    1. Parents - more an dmore parents don't take an active role in their kids' education, and blame the schools for their kids' failure.

    2. Basic literacy - more and more kids cannot even read at grade-level. And we expect them to understand concepts like evolution??

    3. Critical thinking - thanks ot NCLB, kids are taught to take a test, not think for themselves.

    4. Qualified/dedicated teachers - thanks to unions, teachers have little motivation to actually give a shit about whether or not their students are actually learning anything.

    5. No Child Left Behind - the great unfunded mandate that promotes the fantasy that there is no such thing as a dumb, unmotivated kid. One-size-fits-all education only harms good students, and it sure as hell doesn't make the bad ones any better.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:45PM (#22097634)

    Mostly, you sound like a bitter old person who has faced a lifetime of disappointments and wants to tear others down to the same level. I'm not even sure why I even feel the need to respond to you. I guess I've got issues to work through myself.

    Anyway, it's subtle but there's a contradiction in your characterization of new college graduates. On one hand, you claim that the new college graduates have been raised to feel good regardless of their accomplishments. On the other hand, you claim that colleges graduates feel bad because they are unable to achieve a high level of accomplishments.

    Now that I think about it, maybe the reason I feel compelled to respond to you is my perception that people like you are going to destroy the economic success of the USA and I'd rather not get taken down with you.

    The thing is, fairly recently I did some traveling in Indonesia. Indonesia is poor. Not only is Indonesia poor but, even if you're not poor, there are nowhere near the opportunities available in the USA. Why is that? Size, perhaps? No, Indonesia has just about the same population as the USA? Too much communism, perhaps? No, Indonesia has been aggressively capitalist for decades. They even had regular communist purges for while. Lack of rich people? No, Indonesia has plenty of rich people. The thing about Indonesia is that most people lack the resources to have the productive jobs that people have in the USA. Instead, they engage in economically inefficient activities like subsistence farming and street vending. The rich people in Indonesia don't give back to their community. They just keep it all for themselves.

    Let's look back at the USA in the decades following WWII. The USA did pretty well economically. But, guess what, the USA had a ridiculously high tax rate. Some income tax rates were as high as 90% and a wealthy couple typically had 75% of their wealth taxed to the government when they died. This allowed all kinds of government projects - the interstate highways, public education, the infrastructure of scientific research, even the military.

    What I see from people like you is an attempt to turn the USA into something like Indonesia. An attempt to create a country where there are a few extremely wealthy people at the top and where most everyone else lacks the resources to be anything other than subsistence farmers and street vendors. Sure, in countries like Indonesia the rich people can afford all kinds of servants (maids, cooks, drivers, massagers, etc.) but the question we in the USA need to be asking ourselves is not whether we'd like to live like the rich people in Indonesia but instead whether we'd like to live like the poor people in Indonesia - because that's where the vast majority of us are going to end up if the middle class in the USA gets squeezed out.

  • Re:Sooo... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by I_Love_Pocky! ( 751171 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:50PM (#22097756)
    I hardly think it is fair to look at the average student's comprehension of math and science and think it has any relationship to the best and brightest among us. There are plenty of home grown Americans in the top tiers of research and development, and they are just as smart as their foreign grown counterparts. I believe that the real trouble with the decline in general knowledge of math and science, is that it has led a large segment of society to lose sight of the value of research. There is a growing trend towards rejecting the recommendations of our top researchers, and instead trusting our gut feelings on things. This is a disturbing trend indeed, as placing our faith in feelings over facts is wrongheaded and dangerous. It doesn't matter how good we are at research if the majority of people choose to ignore the research.
  • by MrMarket ( 983874 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:50PM (#22097780) Journal
    Want domestic job security? Get security clearance. I bet a lot of the "real engineers" are working on things that cannot be outsourced for national security reasons...
  • by Gat0r30y ( 957941 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:52PM (#22097808) Homepage Journal

    When did we all conspire to repeat the meme that the engineering job market sucks?

    I don't know, but I don't like it one bit. I remember when I had just graduated high school, and decided to go to into engineering I was thinking to myself "at least I'll get a job when I graduate". What do you know, at graduation I got a call for an interview. On graduation day, while at the ceremony no less I set up the interview for the job I have now. There will always be demand for engineers, and competition from overseas only helps.
    Contrary to all the mumbo jumbo about the US moving to a service economy, that isn't going to happen. We can't support our country by all doing each others laundry and making each other sandwiches. I think the first thing we need to fix is the rampant anti-intellectualism in our country. Since when did it become a Very Bad Thing to be educated? Its like we've decided as a society that its just too hard to compete in the global economy, so lets all just give up. I think thats just a tremendous load, and will do more to hurt us than help us. You know why the U.S. is such a dominant force in the global economy? Because were good at it. There are resourceful innovators here, in tech and in business. Now we are charged with developing the next generation of such innovators, and we are failing miserably. We have to ask ourselves, why?
    And more on point, how do we fix this?
    I don't believe that our education system is so broken as to be beyond repair. We need to fix it. We know we need to fix it. And B.S. standardized tests, No Child Left Behind, the laundry list of other federal and state crap isn't helping.
    You know what worked in the past might just work again. Maybe we should try another "space race" style program. There's nothing like a little healthy competition to get people pumped up about science education. Any ideas for what we could try this time? I don't think going back to the moon is gonna do it. I think we gotta get something new on the plate, and our little energy crisis might just be the problem to solve. We all know that global warming is going to be an issue, and we need to start curbing emissions just as soon as we can. So lets set a lofty goal, by 2050 lets cut the carbon footprint of the US by 1/2. Thats practically impossible. Were gonna have to get some wicked bad ass engineers on this one, and if we set this as a goal soon we might just see a push for more homegrown US engineers. This should put pressure on schools to improve science education, and students will be more engaged in science. Colleges would have more research money, especially in the basic sciences and engineering, allowing kids to get some more scholarship money so it might even be cheaper to become an engineer instead of a liberal arts major or finance grad (right now engineering is a little more expensive). Just a thought.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Facetious ( 710885 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:55PM (#22097874) Journal
    Or, I suspect, skipping college altogether. The ever increasing price of college just doesn't allow it to pay off like it used to.
  • Re:Two Big reasons (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Howler ( 17832 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @02:56PM (#22097886)

    I think you hit the nail on the head here. The answer is simple, its not the government, its the parents. How can we hold the government and teachers 100% liable for the education of our children if we as parents do not get involved on a daily basis with our children's lives and education? I personally believe this lack of involvement is the catalyst for a series of other disturbing issues.

    My wife is a teacher at a middle school, while lack of funding is an issue, the lack of interest displayed by a lot of parents is just down right scary. Seriously, if mommy and daddy don't care why should the child?

    With a lack of involvement, and doing things such as using the TV and video games as a baby sitter, its no wonder why the test scores of kids here in the US are so poor when compared internationally.

    From my observations, there are way too many kids who are extremely disrespectful to their parent, and will do anything to get there way. The parents of such kids, will do just about anything for the kids, and really just want to be their "friend". I call BS! Be a parent! If a kid mouths off to you don't hesitate to tan his hide! Now, I am not an advocate of "beating" kids, but I do support controlled and metered punishment. Spanking can and should be given when appropriate.

    I better get off my soapbox now.
  • by Omestes ( 471991 ) <omestes@gmail . c om> on Friday January 18, 2008 @03:11PM (#22098214) Homepage Journal
    I know I'm going to get bashed for this.

    I've always wondered why our (American) heroes are steroidal, semi-moronic, sports people, or idiotic pretty Hollywood people. I was reading a book on 20th century French philosophy, and Foucault was treated like a rockstar, and Sartre had a parade for his funeral. Sure, these aren't scientific (per se) figures, but they are intellectuals. Ask the average American to identify ONE thinker?

    Looking at our universities, 80% of the people are entering them as a trade school, getting their fast-track MBA or such, and completely ignoring the fields irrelevant to making money (science, the humanities, history). They want money, they want a career, curiosity come second to that. Greed over knowledge. They want application, and not the ability to think of new things, a ready made body of knowledge is safe, all you need to do is follow the steps.

    The problem, in part, is greed. The odds of you getting rich as a public scientist (the most valuable and productive, in my eyes) is pretty slim.

    We want the status quo and wealth, not innovation. Hell science doesn't even fall into the other American value, ambition. Sure you can be determined to find x, but really, you might not. It's up to nature to decide, not you. Science is too humble for our tastes. As we can see by the rise of scientism preachers (Dawkins and co.), science needs to be sexier.

    We also are a country that venerates morons. Not to enter the realm of flamebait, but look what got Bush elected. Not his wit, or astute knowledge of foreign affairs, but his "folksy" ways of expression.
  • Re:No wonder.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by RedHat Rocky ( 94208 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @03:12PM (#22098236)
    You probably meant this as a joke, but let's look at it seriously.

    To start a company means starting off on a basis that puts the system in place. You're dead before you started.

    We Need to Break the System.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18, 2008 @03:42PM (#22098754)
    I'm an actual high school student, and I can tell you from years of observation that ID and religious based scientific teaching is *not* the reason that science education is on the downward spiral. In fact, it's decidedly a non-issue - such teachings have been unfairly criticized to such a degree that they are not even mentioned once in a normal school day in most places.

    The problems are many -

    (1) People just don't care anymore. Kids are getting lazier and lazier.
    (2) Increasing problems at home due to the destruction of the nuclear family structure.
    (3) A general lack of support and enthusiasm in education.
    (4) The educational system as a whole being a massive failure to begin with, for a multitude of reasons.
    (5) Destruction of morality and values - Cheating is becoming unbelievably prevalent.

    I bet it's fun to bash religion, seeing as you atheists have nothing better to do and have a complete lack of hope in general. but maybe you should bash something that actually deserves to be bashed in this instance.

    Religion is a NON-ISSUE in the degrading scientific education system in America. Period!
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @03:58PM (#22099032) Homepage Journal
    Hmm...well, another thing might be if the general populace wasn't stupid and put themselves into HUGE credit card debt, and otherwise living beyond their means.

    If parents worked lived within or slightly below their means, they could do as my folks did, and SAVE money for my college, so that I didn't have to take out loans and finish school with debt. If parents saved, and the kids saved (I was working soon as I was 16), and if you make good grades, between grants and scholastic awards and savings from all parties, you can go without a loan. You may not hit Harvard, but, I'd say most state public Universities will give you a great education too!

  • by wsanders ( 114993 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @04:18PM (#22099368) Homepage
    It single family parents where the parent sits on the couch watching TV and slurping Brawndo all day, vs Finland, where the parent (and maybe even the gov't) is much more involved in the community.

  • by yndrd1984 ( 730475 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @04:23PM (#22099472)
    Any one who believes religion is blocking science has clearly paid more attention to the 1% of the time when it has instead of the 99% of the time it hasn't.

    If you're just going to assert that without evidence, I can assert the opposite - 99% of the potential scientists for most of history got derailed by religion. Who knows how fast science could have developed if people had been taught to question, rather than obey, authority. If people hadn't been told that disease was caused by demons and God's curses, so prayer was the only answer. If the money for opulent temples had been spent on research. If the smartest and most educated people hadn't been pushed into being priests.

    If one ancient culture had torn themselves away from superstition, we could have had the Enlightenment thousands of years ago. It took 5000 years to get from wooden boats and riding horses bareback, to slightly better wooden boats and riding in saddles, all while the divine right of kings and religious explanations were virtually unopposed. Then in 2% of that time span, while civilization has been more secular, we've gone from the first real alternative to wind and muscle (steam) to nuclear submarines and spacecraft. To me, that says a lot.

    Now that I'm done with my rant, how do you reconcile your beliefs with the fact that scientists are the least religious segment of our society? Doesn't that suggest that there's some correlation between a lack of religion and success in science?

  • However, I assure you I am not.

    I honestly believe that the US would not be lagging so far behind in sciences if we finished converting fully to the metric system.

    An acquaintance of mine is taking his first college-level physics class, and the professor stated on the first day that since this was an exact science, there would be no use of US customary measure, only SI units. More than half of the class was simply unaware of what these non-customary units were, and as a result, they spent a week's worth of courses going over grams, litres, metres/kilometres, etc., all the while the students bemoaned having to learn a "foreign" unit of measure. I can even recall something similar happening in my high school physics classes. What a waste!

    If we're going to teach our kids to be proficient in math & science, the least we can do is give them a Base-10 system of measure with no fractions and simple conversions.
  • Re:Sooo... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Chosen Reject ( 842143 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @06:05PM (#22101356)

    I'd really love it if the mediocre talent...would have chosen something else.
    So long as it's not medicine, [palmbeachpost.com] or law, [wikipedia.org] or finance. [wikipedia.org]
  • by GreatBunzinni ( 642500 ) on Friday January 18, 2008 @07:51PM (#22102818)

    Yes -- and that's as high as you can (typically) rise in society. The biggest difference I see between the USA and Europe is that if you want to raise your class and become rich in the USA, it's encouraged, applauded, and most imporantly, perfectly possible. In Europe, it's very, very difficult to become independently wealthy. And if you do want to try, the society frowns on it. It does happen occasionally, but it's very rare.

    It seems that you inadvertently touched the point where the European and American perspectives clash. It's not how easy or hard it is to become wealthy but the very perception of what being wealthy means.

    What struck out from the beginning is your implicit obsession with money, as if it is the dominant objective in mind. Being successful means not only stockpiling the most money but also showing it off the most extravagant exterior signs of wealth. Another incomprehensible detail is how Americans perceive class as being showing off as many exterior signs of wealth as possible. That means that in america a character like Paris Hilton is seen as classy and successful, when the truth is that a character like that is nothing more than cheap white trash. Just because you can afford real diamonds instead of plastic trinkets or you live in a suite instead of a trailer it doesn't mean you are any more posh. Yet, somehow Americans perceive her, and others who emulate her, as successful, posh people. Even as role models. Europeans aren't obsessed with material wealth as Americans are. Europeans do enjoy consumerism and do buy a lot of stuff but Americans just act like that was their sole purpose in life. Well, that isn't healty at all.

    The most important freedom is economic freedom.

    Indeed and yet again Europeans do have more economic freedom. Europeans do pay a lot of taxes but those taxes are used to fund basic, fundamental services that benefit the entire fabric of society. The public health service is an European institution that pretty much defines if a society is civilized or not. The public education system is also an European institution. As soon as no citizen is barred from progressing academically (which does more to climb the class hierarchy than money) due to economic constraints or receives a de-facto death sentence due to being poor, the entire society benefits. It constantly amazes me how a society can accept the idea of success and even the concept of life and death can and should depend on the money you make.

  • by upside ( 574799 ) on Saturday January 19, 2008 @08:18AM (#22107580) Journal
    Nice try but no cigar. ;) I happen to come from a country with one of the world's highest gun ownership ratios. We get hand guns. We get silencers. A 15 year old can get a gun with parental permission. You can try guess which country.

The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the `social sciences' is: some do, some don't. -- Ernest Rutherford

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