$5 Per Month Fee Proposed For Legal Music P2P

sneakyimp writes "Both Wired and Ars Technica have reports on Jim Griffin's proposal that ISPs charge each broadband customer $5 per month to subsidize the ailing music industry. The resulting fund would ostensibly 'compensate songwriters, performers, publishers and music labels.' Although no specific version of the proposal has been referenced, a number of controversies are inherent to the plan: How is the money really divided? What happens when the MPAA, the Business Software Alliance, and various other industry groups want their own surcharge added? What about the supposed majority of broadband customers who never download illegal music? Griffin discussed the plan further at SXSW . We've previously discussed a similar proposal from the Songwriters Association of Canada.

This is ridiculous.

[Dice]

So, if I'm charged this $5/mo fee does that mean they can no longer prosecute me if I download music? Or are they going to do that as well?

Now, if we were talking about a $5/mo (or even $10/mo) fee to be able to download and listen to, burn, copy, whatever as much high quality DRM-free music as I want.... well, suffice to say that I'd be too busy clicking links and breaking out my credit card to make this post.

$4.99 for RIAA

[eightball01]

$0.01 for everyone else.

If I'm paying an 'illegal download tax'...

[Anonymous Coward]

...then you'd better fucking believe I'm gonna be illegally downloading some goddamn music.

ADAPT YOUR BUSINESS MODEL, you greedy fucking cockknockers! Don't keep trying to prop up the old one!

Apple won't like it...

[psychodelicacy]

Who'll pay extra for iTunes if they're already paying to use P2P whether they like it or not?

This is an utterly ridiculous idea. It taxes those who don't download copyright-infringing files to pay for those who do - and who will probably continue to download much more than $5-worth of tracks, subsidised by others.

Illegal downloaders need to stop freeloading off the rest of us and pay for the things they want.

How about. . .?

[MistaE]

Give everyone that doesn't download music a $5 discount? They already charge most of us up the ass and throttle d/l and u/l speeds as it is. Why should we pay anything additional?

Re:Stupid.

[omeomi]

They've pulled this BS before. It's why there's a surcharge on "Music" CDRs. It's not actually legalizing it, it's just their way getting more money. And any time you see a list regarding compensation in this order: "songwriters, performers, publishers and music labels", you know for sure it's exactly the other way around. Music labels will take almost all of the money, then the publishers, then the performers, and last but not least, the songwriters.

Well

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

I see this as their new business model. They may not make mega-millions with a flat tax like this, but they will always have the bare minimum to survive.

Ridiculous idea

[eebra82]

It may sound like a noble and interesting idea to some, but there are other issues besides the fact that it will be nearly impossible to divide the money correctly.

The real issue here is the morality of the fee. Those who are pirates download content worth significantly more than $5. This fee would be no problem to a person who downloads hundreds of songs per month, but a technologically impaired senior who wants to communicate with his children who live in another state/country will also have to pay.

If such fee would pass, then I say we should pay $1 to reimburse victims of pedophilia, who were victimized over the internet. And many other types of victims, of course.

My point is obviously that the music industry should have no say in this matter, nor any other industry or company. Or we could flip the coin and make the music industry pay for the rehabilitation of all drug users who snorted coke while listening to Kurt Cobain, or small girls who cannot handle the pressure of looking like Christina Aguilera.

Surcharge

[MBCook]

The "what if I don't want to" argument is a little weak in my opinion. If you are forced to pay it, I'm guessing you would end up using it (since you are already paying). If I had access to all of the songs on the iTunes Music Store, you can bet I would take advantage of it. I don't now because I don't want to pay for the tracks.

The "what about other groups" argument is fantastic. I don't know how someone could reasonably question how something like this become a precedent, causing every group under the sun to suddenly jump out and demand the same thing.

What I worry about is what happens if this goes into effect and gets challenged. I think it's safe to say that someone could mount a good challenge here in the US based on some law. So if I "take advantage" of this forced fee then it gets ruled illegal, do they get to come after me for all the music I "stole"? Do I have to give up everything I downloaded under the plan?

The "how do we divvy up the loot" question is the worst one. Do we put one group in charge (like the RIAA)? Do we really expect them to be fair to all the artists who aren't a member of their group? Or do only they get paid, thus effectively making the a de-facto monopoly? Does that mean there are "good" artists (who my fee pays for) and "bad" artists (who my fee doesn't, thus I can't download their stuff)? Should we let the government run it, thus making it an entitlement bureaucracy? Does every artist get an even share (good for little guys), or do the big artists get more (they are more popular... after all). Does the medium matter? Does my fee pay for me to have the rights to get free sheet music? Why not? If I'm an artist, can I opt out of this saying "no one downloads my music, despite the fee"?

There are so many unanswered/unanswerable questions for this. I don't know how they can push this with a straight face. I'm guessing most of their answers would be something along the lines of "don't worry about it".

The Canadian media tax doesn't seem to have helped much, or solved any of these questions. Why would the US be any different... just because it's a different medium being taxed?

They see $$$, they want in. They could build a subscription MP3 store (real MP3s), band together, and create a de facto (optional) "music tax" that people could pay and use. They don't need to force it through regulation... unless they aren't really looking out for our interests. That can't be true...

What happen to free market economy?

[Opr33Opr33]

Make a good product and it will sell. Don't charge me when I avoid your product.

Re:Stupid.

[pizpot]

If this goes down we'll shut our internet a couple months per year. I'd rather suffer than pay the RIAA for nothing. I already pay them for music cds I buy.

Illegal downloaders?

[Khyber]

"Illegal downloaders need to stop freeloading off the rest of us and pay for the things they want."

Sorry, you shouldn't blame the downloaders, blame the uploaders, as they are the enablers of the whole thing.

Did you just arrive from Digg?

Re:Make it voluntary??

[MBCook]

P2P nothing.

If I'm paying you a monthly fee, you are going to be hosting a reliable service. You will have an iTunes music store/Amazon store/whatever.

If I pay you, I'm not putting up with random qualities, names, ID3 tags, missing seeders, etc. I don't care how obscure my tastes, you have to host it for me. That's our deal: I pay, you let me download.

I expect better service than P2P for $5 a month.

Re:Ridiculous idea

[klapaucjusz]

The real issue here is the morality of the fee. Those who are pirates download content worth significantly more than $5.

What you are raising is the issue of the morality of taxation. We pay taxes for education, whether we have children or not, because we believe that society as a whole benefits from schools.

a technologically impaired senior who wants to communicate with his children who live in another state/country will also have to pay.

That's why taxation is usually progressive.

Re:Stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Music labels will take almost all of the money, then the publishers, then the performers, and last but not least, the songwriters.

In this case I think it's safe to say "last AND least".

Anyone Surprised at Their Logic

[zentec]

I'm not surprised that the proponents of the music industry would come up with concepts such as these. I'm sure they rationalize that people already subsidize shoplifters through higher prices at the store, so since broadband is used to pilfer their product, every one who uses broadband should pay. While it's true, we all pay higher costs due to shoplifters, the store has an incentive to reduce losses or the prices will become prohibitive and customers won't shop there any longer. This surcharge does nothing to cause music producers to change their ways to prevent losses, it forces the liability of bad business decisions upon non-customers.

Those who think this is a good idea should take note that nowhere in this Jim person's argument does it stipulate that the $5 per month surcharge is blanket authorization to download everything and anything. Your $5 gets you the privilege of still paying $.99 at iTunes, or a $12 per month Rhapsody account or running out to Wal-Mart and plunking down $20 for a CD. The music industry will continue to label the internet the tool of choice for music "thieves", because doing so is necessary to justify the $5 per month stipend.

I'm hopeful that the ISPs will tell these people to go get bent. There is a very real possibility of a consumer boycott over this issue, especially from the honest customers who do not download music. If my ISP proudly proclaimed they were collecting this fee, I'd go without broadband.

As far as seeking legislative relief, I don't think too many legislators are going to want to be seen with the hot potato of asking consumers to fork over $5 to help the music industry. It's an election year and a down economy, what fool would suggest...aside from Ted Stevens, Pelosi...well, maybe seeking legislative relief isn't such an idle threat. Get ready to write a lot of letters.

Re:Ridiculous idea

[eebra82]

What you are raising is the issue of the morality of taxation. We pay taxes for education, whether we have children or not, because we believe that society as a whole benefits from schools.

Except for the vital point that your government taxes you, not corporations.

Re:How is this different from taxation?

[icegreentea]

In Canada we already subsidies "Canadian" content/culture from public funds. And it's different from a tax, since in a tax the money goes to the government. In this case the money goes to artists (supposedly). Functionally (to the end user) there is no difference at all. On the note of subsidizing culture with public funds, I totally think that government should be doing that. Museums, art galleries, stuff like that are a wonderful resource for the people.

Sounds Great

[onkelonkel]

I pay my 5 bucks, and now Steve Jobs will let me download as much as I want from iTunes for free!!! Same with Amazon. Right?

Or do you expect me to pay twicT?

Re:How is this different from taxation?

[darjen]

You can choose not to have broadband. You can't choose to not pay taxes.

Minority/Majority

[techstar25]

They've been repeatedly telling us that the minority of users use the majority of the bandwidth (for P2P). So why would they tax the majority of users then? Of course it makes no sense.

What about non-RIAA music?

[urbanriot]

None of the bands I listen to and download are RIAA members. How will my money get to them?

RIAA will never go for it.

[jrhawk42]

The music industry is moved by a few major labels, and those labels hate variety which is exactly what p2p provides (and for free). If people are given a free run of the artist they can listen to their choices will expand a lot, and to be competitive major labels would need to sign a wider variety of acts thus cutting in on the corporate profit. Not to mention all the other problems with how reimbursement is going to work with this system. Personally I think artist will give up trying to sell the music, and focus more on property rights, merchandise, and concerts.

I thought of this back in the days of Napster

[dcavanaugh]

Everyone who wants legal music pays $5/month, and the money is pooled, with the entire pot allocated to artists proportional to downloads. It would bring the underground P2P industry "above the radar" and the artists would get a tiny share of a huge pie instead of a big share of nothing. Honestly, I spend even LESS on music now, but $60/yr is about as much as this is worth to me.

Even by the most conservative estimates, it would produce hundreds of millions of dollars per year in royalties. Or they can maintain the status quo and get nearly nothing. If it were me, I would take the money. But what do I know?

Back when the original Napster was under attack, I suggested this as a reasonable plan. Nobody thought the music industry would accept an "all you can eat" plan at such a low price. But today's P2P reality is exactly that at a price of $0. When the music industry finished overplaying their hand, $0 was the only price left on the table. It's like playing "Deal or No Deal", turning down all the offers, holding out for the $1M prize, only to watch the entire board clear, leaving the $.01 prize. Considering where the music industry is today, $5/month from a huge population is no longer a lowball offer.

If it were ridiculously cheap, I would have no problem with throwing some coffee money into music. It would probably renew my interest in the product. As it stands today, I have an Ipod full of ripped CDs I bought over the last 20 years, and I can listen to the classics indefinitely. At $18.95 per disc, I won't be seen in the music store anytime soon.

Re:Stupid.

[EmotionToilet]

So now they expect us to buy our freedom and pay off the bullies. Seems like a terrible plan to me. How about they produce music worth paying for, and I'll cough up the $5 on my own accord.

How much for movies?

[Wildclaw]

How many dollars per month for

Movies
Games
Software Applications
TV
Books
Comics
Anime
Audiobooks
Pictures

It adds up. And how are they going to determine who gets how much? Oh I guess I know the answer to that. The collector agency gets the bigger part, and the rest is distributed based on some kind of algorithm that favors the current big coorporations.

Re:Ridiculous idea

[sempernoctis]

What you are raising is the issue of the morality of taxation. We pay taxes for education, whether we have children or not, because we believe that society as a whole benefits from schools.

And look how the public education system has turned out. If this were to happen, not only would consumers not be paying according to how much they consume, but the artists (and record labels and everyone else on that side of the equation) can't be compensated based on the value of their product. The MAFIAA and its members would work out a disbursement system among themselves based on who can waive the biggest proverbial stick at the negotiating table, and that would be that.

Re:Distribution

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

I don't think you can blame iTunes for screwing the artists. iTunes needs access to music more than the labels need access to iTunes, so Apple doesn't really have the leverage to argue for better terms on the artists' behalf yet. I think this will change rapidly soon, though. Radiohead and NIN won't be the first or the last high-profile artists to tell the labels to fark off, and when more high-visibility groups find out what Prince learned (self-publishing = many more times the revenue, even if you only sell a fraction of what you used to) I think we're going to see a sea-change in the industry. The other thing that I'm waiting on is the music version of a Tila Tequila, but with talent. I want to see a singer / band that attracts a huge following and provokes a bidding war, then signs with iTunes or some other electronic distributor, bypassing the labels entirely. And before the Bonnaroo crowd starts yelling about Phish or DMB or some similar group, I realize that they've already attracted huge followings before going with labels. What I'm talking about is someone who isn't from the tour-tour-tour to build a following mold, but a group that goes straight from recording in their basement to being the next U2 or Smashing Pumpkins or Public Enemy, all without ever going near a traditional label. Once we get the first one of those, I think the old model will finally be destroyed and we'll see the new way of distribution become the way it is, as opposed to the way it should be.

Bullshit

[Phoenix666]

I do use my broadband connection every day to get the news, read scientific journals, waste time on /., what-have-you.

I don't listen to RIAA music any more, much less download their crappy tracks, buy them from iTunes, or heaven forbid buy CDs, because I want nothing to do with them whatsoever.

Assessing a $5/mo. fee to every broadband user is the last thing that should happen. 10 years ago, OK, that was something we could have talked about. And did talk about. But the music industry wanted no part of it.

Now it's too late. The world and its musicians and its fans have all moved on.

Let the RIAA die, and rot.

Re:This is ridiculous.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately it won't work. Participating in such a scheme would be tantamount to an admission of guilt. The RIAA would prosecute to the fullest any person with this insurance instead of extending settlement offers like they do now, so calculating the insurance based on current settlement values would not work. Judges would not look kindly on it either and would likely approve the maximum possible penalties, which as I'm sure you know are ludicrous and could probably easily bankrupt the insurer.

Also, it would not surprise me if there were already laws prohibiting insurance for illegal acts.

Re:Stupid.

[rbphilip]

$5/month for copyright infringement I don't participate in, on top of the monthly $60 I pay for broadband. That's fine, if the RIAA/MPAA are also going to put high-quality DRM-free versions of *all* music and movies up on a public server for me to download. If not they can stick it in their collective dark places!

NOW they get it

[fahrvergnugen]

Seven years ago, Napster offered to partner up with the music companies, charge a monthly fee, and go legit. They had a beautiful, efficient 'walled garden' infrastructure, selection surpassing the iTunes store, nearly 15 million active users, and even though there was openNap and Gnutella, these were fringe tools. Napster had no *real* competition, they were a de facto standard. The market was sewn up.

Napster offered multiple times to partner up with the RIAA labels to create a subscription-based model. If they'd have kept just 1/3 of their userbase at $10 a month (highly reasonable) and growth had remained flat (highly unlikely), they'd have pulled in $600mil in the first year, without ever having spent a dime on marketing or distribution. $600mil a year in free money with incredible growth potential, and the RIAA wouldn't have had to lift a finger.

$600mil in revenue in just the first year, for doing nothing. And they said no, shut down Napster, and unleashed the unkillable hydra of gnutella/bittorrent/FastTrack/etc.

NOW the RIAA wants a surcharge? No. You had your chance at the golden egg, and relevancy in the future of music, and you chose instead to cut the goose's throat. We're not going to subsidize you now.

This whole idea sounds familiar

[symbolset]

RIAA wants the government to mandate payments to them from essentially everybody?

That would be like insurance companies wanting auto insurance to be mandatory.

Or hospitals being in favor of mandatory medical insurance.

Or Microsoft insisting on Windows installed on every PC

Or sports teams wanting every citizen to subsidize their business.

or... wait... what were we talking about again?

Re:Illegal downloaders?

[skeeto]

Downloaders are just as in the wrong as uploaders are.

Or maybe breaking the law has nothing to do with right and wrong. Copyright, in its current form, is a corrupt and unjust law that actually causes the opposite of its original purpose as defined by the constitution. No one should feel any qualms about breaking it.

Re:Thanks for nothing. Just say no.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let p2p run rampant. Don't sue anybody. Then watch and see if the music/movie industries up and die. If they do, then consider whether or not legislation is needed to revivify them. If they do not die, then admit that the legislation was never needed in the first place, and just don't bother with it.

Personally, I am tired of this zero-evidence notion that file sharing will kill the industry. Every time we have heard this line in the past (for video cassettes, cassette tapes, CD-R, etc.), it has been proven false. Let's try it and find out. Once the real evidence is in, then I will be interested in discussing responses.
 

Re:Thanks for nothing. Just say no.

[LifesABeach]

I am thinking of the "Slippery Slope" that this article presents. Here we have a very eloquent speaker stating that the multi billion dollar recording industry is taking a hammering for lack of sales. So the sweetest thing, the nicest thing to do is that all of us donate money to this industry; Right? Then when this happens those people that were affected by the "Globalization" of the U.S.Economy from everything manufactured, to services rendered can now sue for monetary damages. One can argue that the flooding of manufactured goods has been handled fairly. Also one could argue that the service sector has not been hammered at all, because, well there are plenty of jobs to go around.

I am kind of confused right now, nothing is making sense. Corporations, and Narrowly defined businesses running the government does not seem to be working very well.

Re:Stupid.

[dbIII]

I presume all media companies are criminal tax evaders and should pay $5 of the tax bill of each citizen to even things out.

They certainly get a lot of representation without taxation, for example the blockbuster movie "Forest Gump" made a loss as far as the IRS was told.

Re:Stupid.

[Dan541]

Well since your paying for the music you might aswell download it.

Re:Thanks for nothing. Just say no.

[hitmark]

hmm, was there not some USA bigwig that ones stated something to the tune that no market had the right to exist for eternity?

the thing about the net and the computer is that in one box and connection one have (to go back to about the industrial age) a telegraph, a printing press and a gramophone all hooked together so that the telegraph can feed of stuff to the other ones.

at that time, with a printing press being a room sized device operated by 1 or more person as a full day job, that would be unthinkable. but today, thanks to the wonders of the microprocessor, thats not only possible, but increasingly common place.

thing is that we are still operating with industrial age laws, when the tech have moved on like no-one at that time could have foretold.

yes, riaa and the rest keeps a whole lot of people with work. but was there not cries about loss of work when the assembly line came to be, and continued on to become increasingly automated?

maybe its time we think about alternate ways of distributing resources? ways not hooked on the idea of scarcity in some form or other for other things then physical resources?

maybe the net, and all that it can contain, should be put under some kind of operation similar to a public library? only that said public library to is a creation of a age where books where a scarce resource, turning their content scarce as well. but today the physical book may be scarce, but the content of it do not have to be. the creativity of the human mind, when not directed towards creating a physical construct, have been set free like no time before.

question is, how are those creative minds supposed to live on? as is, we are so used to the physical media that we cant really imagine a world without it. but if one manage to distance oneself from that idea, then what? what alternate paths do then appear?

to re-imagine the way to launch programs in kde, the developers had to stop referring to the launcher as a menu, this because the very word was loaded with images of ordered lists of items, and one could not shake it.

so it may well be that we have to stop talking about copyright, or any other kinds of rights, as these are now loaded words. words that force our minds into preset paths.

Re:This whole idea sounds familiar

[hitmark]

remind me, could not the rise or fall of a roman emperor be related to the events of the colosseum?

its interesting how far we have come technologically, but socially we are just differently dressed "romans".

Re:how about a compromise...

[DeadDecoy]

First of all, if you pay, doesn't that imply you'll be illegally downloading music? Secondly, doesn't this reek of paying protection money for doing virtually nothing wrong in the first place? I don't think they should be paid as a matter of principle because that would just show them you're willing to bend over and take it up the ass. It's like giving the school bully your lunch money to leave you alone. Acquiescing only emboldens him to come back for me.

Re:how about a compromise...

[arkhan_jg]

Unfortunately, paying the $5 fee won't protect you from legal threats. It'll be there to 'compensate the labels for their losses from piracy'. I.E. you and I end up paying for the exec's hookers and blow, and get nothing back for it whether we download infringing music or not. Just like the blank media taxes, or the zune fee.

The idea of us paying something voluntarily, and getting something in fair exchange from the music labels? Completely alien to them, no matter how many reasonable ways we come up with.

Re:Well

[Bug-Man]

Mind you, they've already paid RIAA tax on the blank CDs, so theoretically they're forcibly giving money away to their own competitors!

I'd like to see somebody who uses a large amount of CDRs for legitimate purposes write to the RIAA for a refund.

Re:Stupid.

[loganrapp]

Because, they, y'know, write the music.

Re:This whole idea sounds familiar

[Opportunist]

Basically the colosseum kept the roman empire afloat a bit longer. Bread and games worked well back then already.

The difference is just that today it's TV and "the mall".

Re:This whole idea sounds familiar

[Keith_Beef]

I don't believe the RIAA "broadband tax" is comparable to the other mechanisms you mention.

• insurance companies wanting auto insurance to be mandatory

Auto insurance of some kind is usually mandatory, in order to protect the victims of accidents.

• hospitals being in favor of mandatory medical insurance

In many parts of the world, the government runs or requires citizens to have medical insurance coverage. Managing the health of the country's citizens can be compared to managing the education of those same citizens, in order to maintain a healthy, literate, productive population.

• Microsoft insisting on Windows installed on every PC

This is just a contractual agreement between MS and the manufacturers.

• sports teams wanting every citizen to subsidize their business

Err... what do you think sponsorship of a team is, if not a form of advertising? The money to pay for the advertising comes from the price of the goods.

The broadband tax is an extortion disguised as a tax.

K.

Re:how about a compromise...

[Anonymous Coward]

about a decade? no, more like in the last 8 years. hm...that seems somehow significant...

Re:Thanks for nothing. Just say no.

[vuffi_raa]

Let p2p run rampant. Don't sue anybody. Then watch and see if the music/movie industries up and die. If they do, then consider whether or not legislation is needed to revivify them. If they do not die, then admit that the legislation was never needed in the first place, and just don't bother with it.

it already is rampant and the industry hasn't gone away-
seriously though I would love to see how much $ the industry spent on lawsuits vs. sales losses (that arent accurate anyways since it doesn't account for crap music, boycotting and poor judgement and marketing) since there has been nearly zero $ ever recovered from p2p lawsuits since... well people that don't have the $ to buy a britney cd in the first place won't have the $ to pay judgements or settlements.

Personally, I am tired of this zero-evidence notion that file sharing will kill the industry. Every time we have heard this line in the past (for video cassettes, cassette tapes, CD-R, etc.), it has been proven false. Let's try it and find out. Once the real evidence is in, then I will be interested in discussing responses.

the funny thing is that this will never happen since "piracy" is such a catch all claim for the industry- all of the propaganda can be directly funneled into it. People are boycotting> piracy, slow sales> piracy, poor marketing> piracy, bad economy> piracy - most average consumers do not have the economic knowledg to understand the ebb and flow of consumables to understand that there are other factors that go into PNL reporting and will just buy into it....