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Music Media The Almighty Buck

Must a CD Cost $15.99? 586

scionite0 sends us to Rolling Stone for an in-depth article on Wal-Mart and the music business. Wal-Mart is the largest music retailer selling "an estimated one out of every five major-label albums" in the US. Wal-Mart willingly loses money selling CDs for less than $10 in order to draw customers into the store, but they are tired of taking a loss on CDs. The mega-retailer is telling the major record labels to lower the price of CDs or risk losing retail space to DVDs and video games. (Scroll to the bottom of the article for a breakdown of where exactly the money goes on a $15.99 album sale.) "[A Wal-Mart spokesman said:] 'The record industry needs to refine their business models, because the consumer is the ultimate arbitrator. And the consumer feels music isn't properly priced.' [While music executives are quoted:] 'While Wal-Mart represents nearly twenty percent of major-label music sales, music represents only about two percent of Wal-Mart's total sales. If they got out of selling music, it would mean nothing to them. This keeps me awake at night.' [And another:] 'Wal-Mart has no long-term care for an individual artist or marketing plan, unlike the specialty stores, which were a real business partner. At Wal-Mart, we're a commodity and have to fight for shelf space like Colgate fights for shelf space.'"
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Must a CD Cost $15.99?

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  • 2004? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DigitalisAkujin ( 846133 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:42PM (#22861696) Homepage
    Hardly news considering the article was posted on Oct 12th, 2004!

    Who the hell approved this?
  • Commodity? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jawtheshark ( 198669 ) * <slashdot@nosPAm.jawtheshark.com> on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:43PM (#22861710) Homepage Journal

    At Wal-Mart, we're a commodity and have to fight for shelf space like Colgate fights for shelf space.

    And you expect sympathy somehow? I mean, let's be serious: the music industry did all it could to make music a "commodity and throwaway product". I sorry, but what did you expect? You wanted to sell a commodity product, then you live by the rules of commodity products. Geez.... These people are obtuse...

  • The breakdown (Score:4, Insightful)

    by SatanicPuppy ( 611928 ) * <Satanicpuppy.gmail@com> on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:43PM (#22861724) Journal
    $0.17 Musicians' unions *Typical
    $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing
    $0.82 Publishing royalties *e.g The rights to the song itself
    $0.80 Retail profit *Poor bastards. No wonder they're going out of business.
    $0.90 Distribution
    $1.60 Artists' royalties
    $1.70 Label profit *Hmmmmmm.
    $2.40 Marketing/promotion *So why don't 20 year old albums cost any less?
    $2.91 Label overhead *Upgrade your equipment, jesus.
    $3.89 Retail overhead *Because if it weren't for music, they'd be selling crack in that space.

    Oh yea...No scam here. I'm not sure if it's just the bloated nature of the business or what, but this is a steaming pile of crap from my perspective. It's a fricking dollar seventy to make it and get it to the store, but the "price" is fifteen bucks?

    Breaking down the rest, we notice that all the combined "profits" amount to twice the cost of manufacture and distribution, and that the combined "overhead" is equal to more than all the profit, cost, and distribution combined...I imagine that's calcuated on the costs to maintain the machinery, the retail space, etc, that makes all the stuff possible.

    The whole thing screams bloated industry to me. Overhead is 50% of the cost? There is something wrong with your model. Fricking newspapers do better than that.

    Nice to see the evil of Wal-Mart being turned to a good purpose (subjugating the recording industry). Something nice about the world when two wrongs do make a right. One choice quote: "For the music industry, having such a dominant retailer is like being stuck in a bad marriage." Doesn't that sound like everyone elses relationship with the RIAA?
  • by davidwr ( 791652 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:44PM (#22861744) Homepage Journal
    If a very large retailer prices something at a loss for a very long time, consumers expect that will be the "market value" and will balk at paying more. They will assume, usually correctly, that if it can be sold for $10 over the long haul, it can be sold for a profit at that price or that anyone selling it at that price can continue to do so indefinately.

    You see this with cars and "free with rebate but only once or twice a month" computer software, where consumers won't buy when incentives are removed.

    When is the last time Joe Sophisticated Consumer paid full price or for that matter anything more than sales tax for Acme Antivirus?
  • by johnny cashed ( 590023 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:44PM (#22861748) Homepage
    Let us price it like one. Whoever thought that it would be Wal-Mart to break the industry.
  • surprise, surprise (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Red Flayer ( 890720 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:46PM (#22861774) Journal

    'Wal-Mart has no long-term care for an individual artist or marketing plan, unlike the specialty stores, which were a real business partner. At Wal-Mart, we're a commodity and have to fight for shelf space like Colgate fights for shelf space.'
    Why are people constantly surprised by the fact that at some point, they need to pay the piper?

    When you do business with Walmart, you should know that you're going to be asked to reduce your price. When you stop supporting mom-and-pop shops by not giving them the volume discounts you give to Walmart, to the point where Walmart has a potentially sufocating grip on your retail pipeline, then you're in trouble.

    This is what happens when you dance with the devil... you find out he's clumsy and steps on your feet, and has bad breath to boot.

    There's an op-ed piece written by the founder of Snapper that sheds a lot of light on why/how a manufacturer should choose not to do business with Walmart. Too busy to dreg up a link, but well worth the read, for anyone who cares enough to do a google search.
  • by inode_buddha ( 576844 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:47PM (#22861790) Journal
    Memo to record labels: What's wrong with having to fight for shelf space like everyone else? Competition? Has it occurred that maybe Wal-Mart would like to sell even more?
  • Boo-fucking-hoo (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Gay for Linux ( 942545 ) * on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:48PM (#22861804)
    Am I supposed to feel sorry for the music labels? The article wanks them off and swallows every last drop.

    Tough shit if they have to do business with a smart retailer- if people wanted to pay $16 for CDs at Tower Records and Music Land, those places would still be in business.

    RIAA, wake up to the internet already. There's a reason iTunes sells songs and Amazon sells lots of books- they can have a huge catalog without the need for retail space, you don't have to pay that $3.89 retail overhead charge to stock independent artists that only five people want to hear.

    This is the way all brick and mortar is going- stores are a convenience. They keep the latest and biggest in stock and you can pick up and buy something there immediately. Otherwise, you go to the net and buy it for cheaper. The problem is their model, not Walmart.
  • by SatanicPuppy ( 611928 ) * <Satanicpuppy.gmail@com> on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:48PM (#22861808) Journal
    Seems arbitrary. I notice you stuck up for the union...God forbid they feel the pinch of the industry.

    All this tells me is that artists should market aggressively with digital format music, and keep CD sales as a small-time sideline; they could charge 5 bucks plus shipping and handling and make a ~3 bucks a pop.
  • Re:Commodity? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jawtheshark ( 198669 ) * <slashdot@nosPAm.jawtheshark.com> on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:50PM (#22861824) Homepage Journal
    Of course, but *my* point is that they dug their own grave. They made it that way themselves instead of favouring diversity and art, they favoured run-of-the-mill-pop-starlets. They could have had a business respected by everyone, being fair to the artists and customers (not comsumers!) and promoting art... but noooooo.... Quick buck was better, because the alternative means hard work.
  • by pembo13 ( 770295 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:54PM (#22861862) Homepage
    Or the artists won't be able to have gold cutlery in their private jets (/me remembers south park episode)
  • by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:56PM (#22861882) Homepage
    What amazes me most about that breakdown, is if you look at it, it's hard to figure out why the labels are whining about the iTunes pricing model.

    It seems like they'd get just as much money per track, and cut out a lot of overhead. That sorta seems to support this push to get higher pricing on iTunes tracks is just a cash grab (surprise) by the labels.

    Cheers
  • Re:The breakdown (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gEvil (beta) ( 945888 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:57PM (#22861894)
    Somehow I knew that this would be the first response. "But making a video game costs money! It doesn't cost anything to produce a record!" I'm not saying that I agree with how the major labels operate (I worked in the music industry for a number of years, FWIW. And part of that was for a major label.), but it's disingenuous to say that it only costs a coupla grand to make an album that will sell millions of copies. Or should we also base the entire software world on the success and relative costs on something like, say, Geometry Wars?
  • by Rinisari ( 521266 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:58PM (#22861904) Homepage Journal
    The artists should be making the most profit. If it's not like that, then the system is broken. The producer of an item should always make more money than any other person involved in the process.
  • by SatanicPuppy ( 611928 ) * <Satanicpuppy.gmail@com> on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:58PM (#22861912) Journal
    17 cents per CD...I missed where they contributed anything there...Are they singing backup?

    They're certainly not doing ~20% of the work that the retailer is doing, or ~13% of the work the artist is doing...Just irritates me. Artists are getting fricking screwed all the time; why do they even have a union?
  • News for .. ? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by BendingSpoons ( 997813 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @03:59PM (#22861936)
    I hate to be the curmudgeon that wonders why this made Slashdot, but really: what makes the relationship between the recording industry and a retailer "news for nerds"? Does every story that implicates the greed of the RIAA become newsworthy, even if it has nothing to do with technology? Even if it's four years old?

    Sincerely,

    That Guy
  • Re:2004? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by The-Bus ( 138060 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:00PM (#22861946)
    Well, it's been brought up again recently [yahoo.com].

    All Wal-Mart needs to succeed with this is to have one record company break off and decide to join them and have $5 to $10 CDs. Which brings me to this point:

    Maas referenced the DVD business as a model for tiered pricing. "(It) has been around for years and has worked very well," he said.
    DVDs weren't always so dirt cheap. Aside from dot-com era startups selling DVDs for $1, DVD prices were extremely high for a long time. Even in 2000, it was difficult to find a lot of DVDs for much under $15-$20 at your big-box discount stores like Best Buy, etc. I remember reading an article around that time that one of the executives at Warner Bros. wanted to make a DVD an impulse buy, with a price matching that of a magazine ($6 or so). At the time, it sounded insane. A few years later, it was a reality: bins of $5 titles at Wal-Mart. Two-for-$5 titles on Black Friday. Even at corner drugstores, $10 DVDs.

    Record companies have done this. They usually repackage artists into a new "best of" and sell it for $11 or less. And Best Buy has had new releases of artists for $7 and below for many years, although that's usually limited to a single week and a handful of new untested artists.

    If one of the majors breaks off and starts offering discs at below-iTunes prices, the others will have to follow. They can still follow what they've been doing by mirrorring the DVD market: sell the basic CD for peanuts, sell the enhanced CD+DVD with a t-shirt or a poster or more tracks for $20.
  • Re:Costs too much (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hanshotfirst ( 851936 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:00PM (#22861952)
    While I agree with you, this reasoning may not hold up very well, since the movie more than paid for itself and DVD production at the box office - the DVD is gravy. (Assuming a movie worth getting the DVD for.)

    The CD on the other hand doesn't have that - maybe there's a concert tour, but the tour usually makes money on merch and CD sales, so we're back to the CD being the main profit center again.
  • by Animats ( 122034 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:02PM (#22861970) Homepage

    Distribution, $0.90? $900 for a thousand CDs? No way, not for WalMart.

    This is WalMart you're shipping to. You ship to them by the truckload, not one CD at a time. Any in-store costs come under retail overhead, not distribution.

    The promotion costs need to shrink. Maybe we'll see the labels begging for time on webcasts. Label overhead is far too high. The labels don't really do much today except promote; they don't directly employ artists, they don't run recording studios, they don't manufacture CDs, and they don't do physical distribution and warehousing. That's all outsourced. But management overhead hasn't been cut accordingly.

    As the WalMart VP says: "The labels price things based on what they believe they can get -- a pricing philosophy a lot of industries have. But we like to price things as cheaply as we possibly can, rather than charge as much as we can get. It's a big difference in philosophy, and we try to help other people see that."

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:04PM (#22862006)
    As someone who used to consult for media companies, let me just say that the article breakdown is craptastic.

    If wholesale price is $12 then that only leaves $4 for retailer expenses and profit. However, that's not what the quoted numbers add up to. So right of the bat, we see there is some creative license going on in these numbers.

    Now that 17 cents to a union, that union is RIAA, ASCAP, et el.

    The 80 cents for packaging and manufacturing seems high but we can leave it be.

    The 160 cents ot the artist is probably also high but let's assume it is also true.

    The remaining $9.43 goes to the labels/publishers. That includes the distrubtion costs, after all the publishers do most of their own distribution in the US, so that 90 cents really flows back to the label. Also, do you really think it costs 90 cents to truck a cd to the Walmart wharehouse. They can dice the $9.43 up anyway they want to, but the majority of the money is going to the label/publisher. The breakdown is just a matter of creative accounting.
  • by Shados ( 741919 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:04PM (#22862012)
    It should, though we have to agree: writing and singing a song isn't much compared to all of the processing that has to be involved to print thousands of CDs, handle all of the stuff with the retailers (thats one of the worse parts), all the marketing, etc. Its 1 person's work vs hundreds, who will also most likely spend douzans of time more man hours on it than the artist.

    That being said, they are still pushing it a lot, as artists don't even get that.

    Also a note of interest, in other fields, such as the gaming industry, the developers/artists get a lot more. But there's also WAAAAAAAY more people involved in making a videogame, than there is making a song. (Same deal with movies). So there is something to keep in mind here.
  • Re:The breakdown (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ivan256 ( 17499 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:07PM (#22862048)
    If the studios spent some of that "label overhead" for artist development instead of treating it as another "profit" column without labeling it as such, you could bring the average marketing costs *way* down. Think $0.10 instead of $2.40.... After all, if 90% of pop hits weren't from one-hit-wonders you wouldn't have to spend all that money introducing a new face every month.

    Of course that requires a business plan with a greater than 3 month outlook, and if they did that they may realize suing their customers wasn't such a good idea either... Even less overhead!

    Additionally, publishing royalties + label profit should be less-than or equal to artist's royalties. If copyright law needs to be adjusted to help this change along, so be it.
  • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:21PM (#22862252) Homepage Journal
    The problem with the cost plus model for pricing is that prices aren't fixed.

    One of the biggest determiners of cost is volume of sales; for the most part your costs go down as you sell more -- you share fixed costs like your factories over more units sold of course, but even your unit costs tend to go down with sales volume. Of course in special cases you may have per unit costs go up with volume, for example when you've bought all the plastic available at a certain price for your CDs...

    When it comes to pricing, what keeps greed in check is supposed to be ... greed. If a label is selling a CD at $15.99, it means that they think pricing it a penny higher or a penny lower will cost them net profits, either through inflating per unit costs (which trims profit on each unit sold), or cutting into volume.

    At least that's the way it's supposed to work.

    I think the problem with the music industry is not greed -- or at least it's not just unenlightened greed. The problem is imagination.

    Think about this: people sashay into Starbucks every day and plunk down $3.99 on a cup of coffee. Not that has anything to do with the price of tea in China, but it means that people do have money to throw around $20-$30 bucks a week absolutely mindlessly. In that context a $15.99 music CD is one of the greatest bargains imaginable provided that you like it enough to play it quite a bit. I have CDs from a decade ago I still play quite a bit.

    The problem is in the market demand end of things. People aren't plunking down $15.99 for CDs on a whim, even though they very well could. They can blame it on P2P if they like, but if they can't manage a half dozen or so impulse buys for the average consumer over the course of a year, they've got a serious marketing problem. Even in the world of widespread "piratical" downloads, people will fork over $15.99 for a CD if it contains music they really, really want to listen to. It's not enough money to deter fans from buying a physical token of ownership. It's true that houses burn down, but people lose computer data much, much more often. If music has to be free for people to listen to it, something is wrong with the content they're selling.

    So we have a marketing problem, and that includes pricing, but it also includes product definition and promotion. If $15.99 is the wrong price, but $11.35 is the "right" price, they industry is either failing to promote music people want to hear, or failing to reach people who want to hear the music they are producing, or both. I suspect both. I suspect that $11.35 might be more "right" than $15.99, but only because the industry doesn't know how to find, produce and promote music that people want to hear. It's really important to keep people in the habit of buying your product, and that's where the music industry is falling down. They'll have to accept that its not as profitable a business as they imagined it to be, at least until people are back in the habit of buying.
  • Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sm62704 ( 957197 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:22PM (#22862260) Journal
    I thought all you guys stole all your music.

    Well, stealing music [wikipedia.org] is only a misdemeanor with a few hundred dollar fine if you get caught. copyright infringement [uncyclopedia.org] is a civil matter that can cost thousands upon thousands if you get caught.

    So is it any wonder that those guys steal it rather than infringe copyright?

    Myself, I'd rather buy indie music on CD from the bands themselves. $15.99? Hell, $10 is too much, most of the time they'll sell me two or three CDs for ten bucks. And it cost them a hell of a lot more to get them recorded, stamped, and packaged than it costs the major labels.

    No matter what you think about WalMart, they're in the right on this one. As evil as WalMart may be, the major record labels are far more evil.

    -mcgrew
  • by merreborn ( 853723 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:24PM (#22862284) Journal

    Artists are getting fricking screwed all the time; why do they even have a union?
    The RIAA and its members would steamroll 99% of artists into taking *less* than the 10% royalties they're getting now, if they were unionless. If anything, musicians need a stronger union.

    I'd hate to be a small time, MTV2 band without a union to back me up against a major label.
  • Re:Costs too much (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sheldon ( 2322 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:29PM (#22862350)

    The CD on the other hand doesn't have that - maybe there's a concert tour, but the tour usually makes money on merch and CD sales, so we're back to the CD being the main profit center again.


    That depends.

    For a small band... touring helps to promote the CD sales.

    But for a mega band like U2... CD sales help to promote the tour.

    As CD sales increase, you get more radio airplay, or at least more attention which means more people come to the concert, which means you can fill all the seats and charge more for tickets. They feed upon one another.
  • by SparkleMotion88 ( 1013083 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:37PM (#22862472)
    Sorry, the person who risks his own money should get more reward than everyone else. In this case, the record labels pay to produce records that may not make any money. The artists risk nothing. In more familiar terms, the artists are employees and they don't get to make the rules. If they don't like their deal, they can try to negotiate a better one or take out a loan and produce their next album themselves.

    The burden of risk is the most expensive thing thing in the economy. It is more expensive than talent, education, good looks, and everything else. In my opinion, the system is broken if the people taking the risks don't get the most reward.
  • by sm62704 ( 957197 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @04:38PM (#22862482) Journal
    The promotion costs need to shrink.

    I agree with that, but it seems that promotion (getting airplay) is the only thing a lanbel can do for an artist.

    they don't directly employ artists

    Actually they do. Under US copyright law, all phonorecordings are "works for hire" thanks to the RIAA labels buying congresscritters back in the 1950s.

    Does Lynard Skynard's Workin' for MCA still have the (intentional) hum at the beginning of the song on CD like it did on the LP? My CD was ripped from an LP.

    Seven years of hard luck, comin down on me
    From the florida border, yea up to nashville tennessee
    I worked in every joint you can name, mister every honkytonk
    Along come mr yankee slicker, sayin maybe youre what I want

    (chorus)
    Want you to sign your contract
    Want you to sign today
    Gonna give you lots of money
    Workin for mca

    9000 dollars, thats all we could win
    But we smiled at the yankee slicker with a big ol southern grin
    Theyre gonna take me out to california gonna make me a superstar
    Just pay me all of my money and mister maybe you wont get a scar

    (chorus)

    Suckers took my money since I was seventeen
    If it aint no pencil pusher, it got to be a honkytonk queen
    But Ill sign my contract baby, and I want you people to know
    That every penny that I make, Im gonna see where my money goes

    (chorus)
  • Ok, first of all the way the music industry was setup, and remains setup, recordings were/are not considered to be an artist's profit center. Recordings are setup to be promotional material. The artist is supposed to make their money from performing (concerts, gigs, shows, appearences, whatever you want to call it) under the original and existing plan. The problem is since the recording industry coam into being, the music industry as a whole has been trying to make this "continental" shift into making the recording the profit center and the concert the promotional method for the recording. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on point of view from which side of the whole arguement you are on) the recording industry has continued to structure costs and profits around the original intended model.

    The end result is you now have artists who never, or rarely ever perform live who want to make all their money on the recordings. You have artists who do short when we feel like it tours for a total of 20-30 dates every few years. Again do do these tours to support the recording. The model was setup the other way around.

    In the last 10 to 15 years we have seen the original true promotional vehicle of the "single" fade away. This as the tie breaker in the recording company artist tug of war. It wasn't ideal, the company still saw most of the profit, but it gave the artist someplace to make money. Now its all centered on the album sale, and that album sale wasn't structured to be the profit center for the artist, and was originally supposed to be the upsale from the single, which no longer exists.

    The up shot in th end is that the industry is s mess and we the consumer are getting cheated two and half times, high recording prices with attendant limited availability since older recordings can be had only at high prices due to not being available at the easiest to reach retailers. And we are being cheating in that artists don't perfrom as often. My fater tell stories of the acts when he was growing up 50's/60's that would perform multiple times a year at multiple local venues, not once every 3-4 years at the central huge mega stadium or ampi-theater which is what we have now if they perform at all.

    I don't know the answer just stating the view I have developed. I definately think that artists should be performing more often, I see coming around on tour as thier job. Just as I go to a job every day they should be either working on the next album, or coming on by to perfrom in my town. I do also think that labels need to lower the price of CD's since they are still the promotional material for that tour I think the artist should be on, and lacking the singles that used to fill a larger protion of that roll the CD needs to fill some median space between old full album perpose, and the old single's purpose.
  • by tezza ( 539307 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @05:06PM (#22862870)
    The producer of an item should always make more money than any other person involved in the process.

    Your argument breaks down in so many ways. Here is one suitable to slashdot.

    Take the sale price of a computer. At what stage do you class someone the "producer"?? - who you say is the most important.

    * The miner who dug the silicon out of the ground
    * The refiner who turned that into wafers
    * The chip designer
    * The chip fabricator
    * The assembler
    * etc.


    It's not easy to assign who should get 'the most'. In fact it is impossible without arbitration.
  • by johnlcallaway ( 165670 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @05:09PM (#22862896)
    Musicians that fall on hard times can get a fucking job like the rest of us.
  • by TheLostSamurai ( 1051736 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @05:24PM (#22863080)
    Or they can plan ahead. Purchase insurance like the rest of us, have a savings plan like the rest of us.
  • Re:Wait (Score:2, Insightful)

    by geekoid ( 135745 ) <dadinportland&yahoo,com> on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @05:30PM (#22863154) Homepage Journal
    "...and packaged than it costs the major labels."

    Not when you take marketing the item into account.
    How much money do these indie artists pay to a marketing team? Have they spent money trying to get picked up by Wal-Mart?

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @05:30PM (#22863160)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dontmakemethink ( 1186169 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @05:35PM (#22863222)

    As an indie musician and producer, I can assure you that successful indie bands do not sell CD's for $10, much less several. Stage-side CD sales should be for $20 or more, partly because of the opportunity to get them signed by the band, also because it's an inelastic demand - anyone willing to spend $10 on a CD at a show will typically spend $20, so selling for less does not sell more copies. It's only when there is a selection of 100's of bands that purse strings tighten.

    I feel compelled to reply because I don't want folks to think they can talk any musician down to $10 on a CD. Some you can, but they probably recorded it in their garage.

    And while it does cost indies more per CD to manufacture them, major labels typically have much higher production budgets. I produce for between $3k-$8k, majors are typically $50k and up. There are many hits on the radio which cost over $1M for just the one song. And if it flops, the artist(s) gets the bill!

    Ironically, the least expensive component of a CD is pressing the content, the most expensive is printing the artwork. That's big motivation to go the iTunes route.

  • by sjbe ( 173966 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @05:52PM (#22863386)

    You're saying that it costs the music industry three times as much as the whole process of creating a single CD to maintain all the CD making equipment, and pay all the guys to run it.
    It wouldn't be as shocking as you think. I'm more familiar with software companies so I'll use their income statements as an example because they are similar in a lot of ways and it's hard to get clean financial numbers from the labels. Only 10-30% of the costs of ANY software company is in the actual engineering and manufacturing. The rest is sales, marketing and overhead. Varies a little depending on the company but it's pretty similar. Don't take my word for it, look [yahoo.com] it [yahoo.com] up [yahoo.com]. I expect the music industry has a similar cost structure with the added wrinkle of royalties. The cost of producing the actual music is relatively small compared with the cost of sales, distribution, marketing and overhead. I'm NOT saying their overhead isn't bloated (I think it is) I'm just saying I would fully expect overhead to be larger than production costs.
  • by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @05:52PM (#22863388) Homepage Journal

    I can get insurance for instruments and equipment through ASCAP without being part of any union.... Bear in mind, though, that the people in unions are not the artists. The folks in the unions are the studio session musicians, the composer/arrangers on hire by studios, etc. I see no reason that they should be a line item on the CD sales costs, though. They should be getting their money in the form of union dues from the hired musicians in question. That money should fall under the "label overhead" column. The only reason to break that out into a separate column is to make anti-union people see red. Unless, of course, the unions are actually getting money directly from each sale, in which case, the anti-union people should be seeing red.

  • Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mattack2 ( 1165421 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @05:57PM (#22863436)
    But commercial CDs are pressed. The CDs "pumped out in the basement" are burned CDs.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @06:06PM (#22863538)
    you pick a guy who died in 1945 as your example of how they're helping? how about something they've done in the last 50 years?
  • Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)

    by h3llfish ( 663057 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @06:07PM (#22863548)
    I agree that Walmart is the "hero" of this particular story, but to me, the real villain is the record buying public. We can't ask firms to not try to make a profit... that's communism! We needed to stand up to the major labels a long time ago by simply not buying their over-priced crap. But sadly, most of us are just too dumb to know better.

    That includes me, back in my teenage years, when I would spend darn near every cent that I had on "content", either as movies or CDs. Music meant so much to me back then, I would have paid 40 bucks a CD to get the latest Nirvana album if I had to. Thank the Lords of Cobol that today's teens have much better access to the true alternatives.

    Marketing (aka propaganda) is very powerful, especially on those who have weak or poorly developed egos (like teens). We need to do a better job as a culture of teaching young people how to spot it (not hard, it's ubiquitous), and how to spot the fallacious logic and appeals to insecurities. The vast majority of the time, marketing is trying to get you to do something that is not in your best interest... like pay 20 bucks for the new Nickleback CD! Ugh!
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @06:14PM (#22863610)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by sentientbrendan ( 316150 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @06:53PM (#22863978)
    >I agree that Walmart is the "hero" of this particular story, but to me, the real villain is the record buying public.

    How is Walmart the hero? This is another story in Walmart's long history of pushing competitors out of the marketplace and then squeezing suppliers. Walmart is the ultimate middleman in that they have more leverage than either producers, consumers, or even their own workers. That said, I don't even really think that Walmart is a villain exactly (most of the time), they are just an extremely well run business optimizing their profits.

    What I think is very wrong is the interpretation that anyone that screws the record industry, the movie industry, or the software industry is somehow a hero. Somehow the slashdot crowd has gotten the impression that these industries are composed completely of useless middlemen who don't deserve to make any profit from their work.

    However, this is less and less true since now artists can sell their work fairly independently. This was probably never true with the software industry, where even smaller publishers like Stardock can make it onto Walmart shelves, and the movie industry where actors, writers and directors all get paid pretty handsomely.

    The truth is that you can't take money out of the "record industries" pockets without taking money out of artists pockets, especially now that artists have access to smaller or self created labels and the ability to sell their stuff over the internet.

    Personally, I buy products at the lowest price I can get them, but I don't go around cheering when the producers get shortchanged.
  • Re:2004? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ProppaT ( 557551 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @07:19PM (#22864184) Homepage
    I would like to add that that $2.40 per album marketing can be figured something like this:

    Record label sends out 5k-10k copies of this cd to every radiostation, music store, and website under the sun to try and get exposure. The MSRP of the cd is $18.99 which, in the label's eye means they just spent $94.95k-$189.9k on marketing. Do the math. If they send out 5k discs, that means that a cd that sells around 250k copies would have had around $2.50 in "marketing" spent on it. There is actually no marketing involved on most of these releases except for the major mainstream ones. This is one of the reasons you constantly hear these horror stories of bands putting out albums and not making a red cent off of them. The contracts are padded with so much absurdity like this it's asinine.
  • Re:Wait (Score:4, Insightful)

    by h3llfish ( 663057 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @07:42PM (#22864416)
    I don't think that piracy is exactly a courageous stand against high prices. True, people would not be so nonchalant about piracy if they didn't feel ripped off by the record companies. But a more valid form of protest, to me, would have been to simply do without most or all major label records, in protest to the high prices.
  • Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @07:45PM (#22864438)

    As I said, if a bunch of kids in their basement can do it, why can't the professionals?


    Because you guys probably had talent. The pros have to spend megabucks on marketing to sell crap.
  • Re:Wait (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Digi-John ( 692918 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @07:51PM (#22864494) Journal
    Rasputin Music here in the S.F. bay area is great... I've been able to get lots of my music quite cheaply (used) and in almost pristine condition.
    To me, to define music as "indie" is to declare, "Our only good point is that we're not signed to a record label", rather than calling it just rock or what-have-you. Indie music fans have not helped this perception, because as I said earlier, they seem to only like something when it's under a critical mass of fans; once a band gets too popular, they decide it's lame and move on to another indistinguishable set. And no, I didn't need that karma after all.
    You know, for great justice, you would have linked this [amazon.com] as an example of older music, thus Rickrolling me at the same time.
  • Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)

    by atrizzah ( 532135 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @08:06PM (#22864606)
    I don't know if I buy your logic on $20 pricing. That might work IF the band is the only act, and they're only selling one CD that contains most of the material they just played. But most of the time when I'm checking out a band I've never heard of, I've got at most 30 bucks in my pocket, and often times, the band has 4 CD's on the shelf for $20. Even if I had the cash, there's no way I'm gonna blow $80 on some unknown band's back catalog. So I pick a random one, which may or may not be representative of their best work. Whereas, at 10 bucks a pop, I might buy 3, and feel way better about it. After all, I'm taking a chance Not to mention, that I personally am highly inclined to buy a band's album at their concert anyway, which is pretty much the only avenue through which I buy music. Most of my friends would probably find the prospect of spending $20 to get an unknown band's CD ridiculous. I think for an indie band trying to gain a following, their best bet is to price their CD's to move, with the intention of gaining more exposure at the expense of immediate profit. It's a lot easier to play some band's music for a friend who didn't see the show than to try to describe it
  • Re:Wait (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ScrewMaster ( 602015 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @08:07PM (#22864614)
    The thing here is that the studios were, for decades, accustomed to dealing with record stores and other relatively small-time operators who could be pressured successfully. Now that the bulk of music sales are through two channels (Wal-Mart and iTunes) which are not controlled by or in any way beholden to the music companies, they're finding themselves in a difficult position. We consumers don't have a collective voice loud enough to be heard, smaller brick-and-mortar stores and chains have no power ... but the likes of Wal-Mart and Steve Jobs have put the fear of God into the music outfits.

    That's probably a good thing. Every king needs to be toppled from his throne now and then. It's good for the rest of us. Little rough on the kings, I suppose, but nobody cares much about them anyway.
  • Re:Wait (Score:2, Insightful)

    by mattack2 ( 1165421 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @08:26PM (#22864758)
    I'm not positive it does make a difference. But I thought that a pressed CD is somewhat more durable (esp to heat). I don't lose my CDs (often). That's largely why I buy CDs anyway -- they are the backup for my digital copy. (And they're cheaper, see my other reply.)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @08:56PM (#22864970)

    You're not really making $7.50/unit, because you're not accounting for production, distribution and marketing. If you leave those out, then of course it'll look cheap.

    And don't tell me that you can do your own production, distirbution and marketing, because that just misses the point: of course you can do those things, cheaper than the labels would, and maybe even decently well (and I certainly think more musicians ought to do it); but the numbers you're giving don't account for the cost of the time you spent, unless your time is free. You didn't make $7.50 of profit per unit; you made $7.50 minus the value of the time (and equipment, materials, etc.) that you spent on making and selling your CDs.

    Yes, I'm absolutely sure many people can make more money as indies than with a major label. But come on, be honest with the accounting.

  • Re:overhead (Score:3, Insightful)

    by h3llfish ( 663057 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @09:52PM (#22865274)
    >>What do you mean what is overhead? What kind of question is that?

    It was of the rhetorical variety.

    >>The answer is that the money goes to marketing

    No, it does not. It seems that you might not have read TFA. They break down where the money goes, and marketing is it's own huge chunk, as is distribution.

    So to restate my question in a way that might be a bit more pleasing to you, given that we've already accounted for profit, marketing, distribution, and manufacturing, why is the label overhead so gosh darned high? The answer is that it's the funny math that record labels use to deprive artists of income. When the movie studios do it, it's called Hollywood Accounting. Feel free to read all about it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting/ [wikipedia.org]

  • Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jedidiah ( 1196 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @10:01PM (#22865312) Homepage
    Yes, and what are those marketing costs exactly?

    What exactly is the flavor of the month getting out of their
    major label for all of this hot air?
  • Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)

    by h3llfish ( 663057 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @10:04PM (#22865332)
    All good points. It's interesting how the major labels have been losing their monopoly because of two separate music distribution revolutions: the p2p revolution, and the walmart/box big retailer revolution. The latter turned out to be not really a big deal. TFA is from 2004, and CD prices have not dropped, not like Walmart was perhaps hoping. But the p2p thing - that's been a real bitch for them. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch.

    If anything, I wonder if the big box retailers haven't helped the 4 majors survive the p2p thing. Few want to make a special trip to Tower or the like just to buy CDs, unless they have eclectic tastes. And certainly no one wants to pay the even higher prices the mom and pops used to charge.
  • by budgenator ( 254554 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @10:47PM (#22865586) Journal

    Wal-Mart has also urged the labels to create exclusive new products that would lower music prices. In a short-lived test, Universal excerpted seven songs from existing albums by acts such as Sum 41 and Ashanti and sold them at Wal-Mart for $7. Few other labels wanted to participate. "They proposed it to a bunch of artists and managers, but everyone was worried that we are sending a message that instead of the sixteen-track album we sold, those nine extra songs were filler," says a label executive.

    Other than a every few really classic albums like "Tommy" and "Dark Side of the Moon" and a few Beatles albums it's pretty much 2 good tracks and 14 tracks of filler! You can't blame the artists either, if I was locked into a contract that required my band to produce 2 albums minimum, I sure wouldn't want to blow my wad and put all my good stuff on the first album either.
  • Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)

    by niktemadur ( 793971 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @11:17PM (#22865776)
    OK then, GTOs (Girls Together Outrageously) is the way to go. But what about lengthy VD treatments in Swiss alps clinics?

    Seriously though, most artists make pennies on the dollar for every CD sold, thanks to draconian contracts they're duped into signing when they're young, naive and can't afford legal representation. There are a few exceptions, and speaking of debauchery, the most notorious being Led Zeppelin, their manager Peter Grant being one magnificent, tough-minded son of a bitch.

    What the OP said, I've been saying for years. Every time you buy a CD from one of the giant record labels, you're not only subsidizing Britney's and Beyonce's $100 million contract, you're also helping finance the fleet of lawyers who rely on making harsh examples of random individuals to keep the status quo going.

    Since I've been aware of the RIAA's bully tactics, I've only bought CDs from independent record labels, in one case going so far as to keep correspondence with a band's drummer as to how acquire one of their albums - he eventually notified me when Amazon got it in stock.
  • Re:Wait (Score:4, Insightful)

    by daviddennis ( 10926 ) <david@amazing.com> on Tuesday March 25, 2008 @11:57PM (#22865984) Homepage
    All very reasonable costs, but if they're on the road, they are selling concert tickets, and if they are selling concert tickets they are making more than enough money to cover these expenses and far more.

    If you have one concert a month and it sells out a 15,000 seat venue at $50 a ticket you're grossing $750,000 a month. I don't know what the venue deal is like but I'm sure you get to keep at least half the money and clearly $100,000 a month is going to be money well spent, and I'll bet most bands could do a concert a week, not a concert a month.

    They don't need a dime from CD sales to cover any of that.

    What strikes me is that if you go with Wal*Mart, a lot of those expenses vanish - Wal*Mart is going to buy these CDs for $9.72 to sell them at $9.72. So you should not have to pay distribution fees ($0.90), retailer profit ($0.80) or retailer overhead ($3.89). The total of that is $5.59. $15.99 - $5.59 = $10.40.

    Marketing/Promotion costs $ 2.40 per CD? That seems like an awful lot. I would think that if Wal*Mart automatically gave the $9.72 CDs good positioning in the store, you would not have to pay any of that. These are going to be acts with name recognition so no promotion should be necessary. So your total costs go down to $ 8 a CD and you are actually making a respectable profit on $9.72, especially since $1.70 of that $ 8 is "Label profit" already.

    So if you can sell a CD for $ 9.72 and it costs you (8-1.70) to make, then you're actually making a profit of $3.42, which is actually more than what you make on that $ 15.99 retail price.

    I think Wal*Mart's position is very reasonable.

    But in the mean time, the labels might consider that by not dropping prices they charge independents they have killed the independents. If they want to not have to deal with ruthless, relentless Wal*Mart, selling to independents at the same price they sell to Wal*Mart would help them exist. Then promotion consists of giving independents a few extra copies of albums to keep for themselves and recommend to customers. No way something like that costs $2.40 per CD.

    If people see the same CD they could buy for $15.99 for $9.99 at Wal*Mart, they are going to buy at Wal*Mart. But I'll bet that for a lot of people if they could buy for $11.99 at an independent or $9.99 at Wal*Mart they would go for the independent because they like going there. The independent doesn't have to beat Wal*Mart, it just has to be somewhat competitive and offer a more pleasant buying experience. If you could see labels selling the music for $9, giving Wal*Mart $1 in profit and the independents $3, then that would be fine, and people would start buying at independent stores again.

    D
  • by big_paul76 ( 1123489 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2008 @12:34AM (#22866190)
    "What I think is very wrong is the interpretation that anyone that screws the record industry, the movie industry, or the software industry is somehow a hero. Somehow the slashdot crowd has gotten the impression that these industries are composed completely of useless middlemen who don't deserve to make any profit from their work."

    Well, I can't speak for the slashdot crowd, whoever that is, but, when an industry believes that a certain price per unit is guaranteed to them in the constitution or something, I'm quite happy to see them taken down a notch or two.

    Really, wal-mart is just doing to the record labels what the labels have been doing to artists for decades. Get people to sign a deal based not on a mutually beneficial contract, but by being the only game in town. Wal-mart does this to all it's suppliers. As I said above, lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

    "That said, I don't even really think that Walmart is a villain exactly (most of the time), they are just an extremely well run business optimizing their profits."

    I don't know when exactly maximizing profits by any means necessary became ethically ok. I think profit is great, but when you can't run your business without paying your employees a wage that keeps them in grinding poverty, I say we can do without that company.

    To say that maximizing profits, come what may, deserves no ethical considerations is to legitimize applied amorality.

    Never mind the fact that, if everybody took the attitude that wal-mart does ("Let other people hire employees, we'll just sell them stuff!"), what happens to your society? You wipe out the middle class, for starters.

    I don't know about you, but basically everything that I like that came out of the 20th century, in terms of tech, books, movies, music, whatever, mostly came out of the middle classes. If you get rid of the middle classes, you have a society that looks more like mexico city. That sound appealing to you?

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