DTV Is Coming and I'm Not Ready 376
(arg!)Styopa writes "As an early adopter, I have an HDTV-ready set without an integrated tuner. Analog television ends next February. My suspicion is that the $40 set-top box at Walmart has the minimum functionality to get by — i.e. simply a D-to-A converter and not an HDTV receiver. Three years ago I bought a UHF super-antenna (I'm about 40 mi. from the towers: borderline fringe reception) and searched for an HDTV converter to pull down HDTV OTA broadcasts. These were extremely hard to find — none at Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circuit City, or Ultimate Electronics (all the local bigboxen). I ended up buying a SIRT150 from eBay, which never found a signal, despite confirmed reception (on the set's normal tuner) of both VHF and UHF channels. So — any advice on what to look for in a set-top box? Is it going to cost me an arm and a leg, or is it not too far from the $40 Walmart special? Can I use Uncle Sam's $40 coupon towards it? I'd like very much to be able to find a physical store where I could go see the signal, before I decide if HD is worth the up-charge (if any) over simple DTV."
Put your money where your mouth is (Score:5, Informative)
Get cable or satellite tv and you will get more HD (Score:4, Informative)
You're not looking hard enough (Score:2, Informative)
And you don't need a new antenna, just use the old one--should work fine.
The $40 box may not help you (Score:2, Informative)
The $40 coupon will buy you a converter that operates much like a cable box. The ones I bought have a coax output and three wire AV output. They don't output a high def signal - they output a standard definition signal, down converting a high def signal for a standard definition TV. I use one to record DTV on my old VCR, so I can time shift programs. It isn't high def, but for people like me who don't want to pop for satellite or TV, it's good enough.
coupon eligible boxes can't be HD (Score:1, Informative)
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2e.htm
54. In its comments, Funai recommended that NTIA clarify the types of outputs that would not be permitted in a CECB. Funai commented that âoewe feel that it is inappropriate to extend Coupon Program eligibility to devices that support high-definition (HDTV) viewing, i.e., a display with higher-than-standard definition video resolution.â[ 98 ] Funai then listed a series of connectors which it felt should not be permitted in the NTIA supported converter box. Funai requested that the following connectors be excluded from the converter box program: Digital Video Interface (DVI), high-definition multimedia interface (HDMI), analog component video (YPbPr), computer video (VGA), as well as USB IEEE-1394 (sometimes trademarked as iLink or Firewire), or IEEE-802.3 (Ethernet) or IEEE-802.11 (wireless).[ 99 ] Funai further recommended that âoeany device that includes an integrated display intended for use as the primary video presentation should be ineligible for the Subsidy.â[ 100 ]
55. In the NPRM, NTIA proposed that âoethe converter box would not be required to render pictures and sound at more than standard definition quality.â[ 101 ] This proposal follows from the definition of a converter box contained in the Act, which limits the converter box to a unit so âoethe consumer can display on television receivers designed to receive and display signals only in the analog television service.â[ 102 ] If NTIA were to permit any digital output to the CECB, then it would cease to be a digital-to-analog converter and would become a digital tuner capable of providing a digital signal to a television monitor. This would clearly be beyond the plain language of the Act which states that the CECB shall âoeconvert any channel broadcast in the digital television service into a format that the consumer can display on television receivers designed to receive and display signals only in the analog television service.â[ 103 ]
56. Therefore, NTIA specifies in the Final Rule those connectors that will not be permitted in a CECB. Likewise, NTIA clarifies in the Final Rule that CECBs are prohibited from containing items such as display screens, recorders or storage devices that go beyond the simple task of converting a digital television signal to an analog signal for display on analog television receivers.
CRT HDTV is Great (Score:3, Informative)
Except that it doesn't have a built-in ATSC tuner, that is.
I watch most everything through MythTV, so my solution is a (now cheap) ATSC tuner card.
Re:The $40 box may not help you (Score:3, Informative)
Samsung (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.tvfool.com/ [tvfool.com]
That site will help you out with your signal levels. It depends on where you are as to what kind of antenna you need. While an outdoor antenna is always better, the Zenith Silver Sensor (or whatever they're calling it these days) is one of the best indoor antennas, and I would definitely recommend you look into that one.
http://www.rabbitears.info/ [rabbitears.info]
That's my site. It can help you figure out what programming is available.
Options for those with an HDTV monitor (Score:1, Informative)
The government $40 coupon is only good for a D2A converter, boxes with HD-resolution output are specifically excluded. Bottom line: You should have spent the extra few bucks to get an integrated tuner when you bought your HDTV.
If you subscribe to cable or satellite, you will not necessarily need a converter box. Though, your provider likely also offers HD service using a newer cable box. Call your provider for info.
SIRT150?! (Score:2, Informative)
Modern receivers, including the $40 box at Wal-Mart, perform much better. However, the $40 box is not HDTV; it outputs an analog 480P signal on channel 3 or a composite video signal.
I should know. I have an SIR-TS151 which was the slightly improved version which I rarely use any more; my DirecTV H20 receiver includes a DTV tuner that performs far better. I also have Best Buy's cheap Insignia DTV receiver in my RV to service the only analog TV that I still own; it's not HDTV (nor is HDTV needed since the TV is analog) but it kicks butt compared to the SIR-TS151.
A modern HDTV receiver that will deliver HDTV to your monitor (either to component or DVI/HDMI input) will run you about $150. Best Buy carries them, but most people with monitor-only HDTVs bought tuners a long time ago so you may have to order it.
Do what I did instead. (Score:5, Informative)
Almost any TV show that's any good will be there after the season is over, and pretty much any movie ever released on DVD will be ready to ship out to you on short order.
While there's a shipping delay involved, I think it's more than made up for by the far greater selection and *lack of ads*. And it's a lot cheaper.
Really, doing this completely changed the way I consume video-based culture -- instead of having the TV sitting there to just pick up when I couldn't decide what to do, inevitably watching crap and making do with what was on, I now make a conscious decision about everything I watch and spend my entertainment time only watching what I really want to see.
Good heavens, Netflix should be paying me for this. I'm serious, though, it makes a big difference.
Anonymous Coward (Score:1, Informative)
The cheap Walmart box will have more than an A/D converter. It will have an SDTV ATSC tuner and probably baseband video out as well as an RF modulated output.
Chances are, your HDTV ready set will not display full HDTV resolution. Retailers and manufacturers were really deceitful in their representations of sets' capabilities until a couple of years ago when the public started getting informed. Check the resolution of the set. HDTV ready means the set will accept an HDTV signal, not necessarily that it will display it. The set may down convert the HDTV signal to something like 480 vertical lines from the original 1080 or 720 lines. Same thing in the horizontal dimension.
If so, you might not bother with an HD ATSC tuner. If you want to see HDTV and not just receive it, you may want to consider buying a new HDTV.
On the other hand, if your set will display 720P or 1080i HDTV, there are a number of ATSC tuners that will do the job nicely, probably including the one you bought. You'll need a good antenna and it will need to pointed in the optimal direction for best reception although, since it's digital, the signal tends to be there, or not. There's no "grey area" where you get a snowy picture like in the old days. Direction of the antenna is important because transmitters may be located all around you. For example, where I live, all stations are in Orlando except NBC, which is located in Daytona Beach. I bought one of those little indoor Terk antennas but it wouldn't receive both Orlando and Daytona. I had to buy a larger rooftop antenna and put it in the attic, pointed northwest to receive all stations reliably.
Re:Parent may be harsh, but it's not a troll (Score:3, Informative)
He could very well have shelled out big bucks at some specialty store for an early model HDTV w/o all the bells and whistles that are standard today, simply because they didn't have them "way back when" - 3 to 4 years ago.
What does someone who bought a 60" Sony projection TV 3 years ago do? Same thing - big bucks out, lack of "standard features" 3 years down the road, and "obsolete" to boot.
Bzzt! (Score:1, Informative)
Just like a square is a rectangle while a rectangle is not necessarily a square, high definition TV is digital TV, but not all digital TV is high definition TV.
Re:After paying for an early HDTV... (Score:4, Informative)
And he should be. Those "digital antennas" are scams.* The digital signals are on a subset of the analog band. That was the whole point of going digital: to free up some of that bandwidth for other purposes (like generating revenue for the government in a big auction!)
*ok, since it's a subset of the bandwidth, you might be able to squeeze out a tiny bit more gain, or build the antenna more cheaply. (less bandwidth means thinner diameter wires, don't cha know) But if you already have a working antenna, there is absolutely no reason to go out and buy another one.
Re:After paying for an early HDTV... (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/762088/coat_hanger_hdtv_antenna_better_than_store_bought_amazing/ [metacafe.com]
Re:Do what I did instead. (Score:5, Informative)
When I was living in the US, this is exactly what I was doing. I was a grad student, and my $20/mo Netflix account got me access to all the major networks, plus the paid cable channels (HBO, etc.), all without ads, all with perfect reception. I also had movies--everything from big blockbusters to tiny art-house flicks.
Cheaper than any other TV option, and you get all the movies you can eat.
It's one of the things I really miss here in Japan. Instead, I BitTorrent TV, which is free, but not as convenient, doesn't look as good, and provides no revenue to the people who make things I want to watch (mod me down, if you will, for wanting to pay people for creating things--even if it means relying on a corrupt and totally unfair system).
Damn I miss Netflix.
Re:Put your money where your mouth is (Score:1, Informative)
I have last year's version of this device and have come to prefer its tuner to the built-in ATSC tuner on my Samsung LCD TV because it cycles through channels much more quickly. Throw in the recording capability (DVD-RAM yields the best results by the way) and you have a winner.
CECBs (Score:2, Informative)
Also for the best antenna orientation I use www.antennaweb.org.
-ac
Re:Get cable or satellite tv and you will get more (Score:3, Informative)
my OTA PBS,CBS and NBC channels look 500% better OTA than the compressed to hell HD signal that Comcast gives out. Cripes I see motion artifacts and nasty green blockies on comcast. Switch to the Antenna and they are not there.
Re:SIRT150?! (Score:3, Informative)
I've tried them all, and only the digital stream brand at rat-shack was the one that pulled in as many stations as my high end Scenium set and tuner. it also was the ONLY one that has a feature that is incredibly important. a signal strength meter.
Samsung DTB-H260F (Score:2, Informative)
For some reason basically nobody else has made one of these things, but it's ok, because the price isn't that bad, and it's a really good tuner.
Re:After paying for an early HDTV... (Score:1, Informative)
That might not be true. Most HD locals are UHF, and many people purchased UHF-only antennas to receive them. But, it seems that many stations that have their analog channels in the VHF range will move their HD feed to the VHF channel and stop broadcasting on the UHF channel they currently use. For example, in San Antonio, TX, the CBS affiliate analog feed is on channel 5 (VHF). Their HD channel is 55 (UHF). After Feb '09, the FCC will reclaim UHF channels 52-69 (this is the 700MHz auction that was just held last month). So, they will need to move their HD feed to channel 5 and stop broadcasting on 55.
So, if you have a UHF-only antenna, you will likely need a new antenna that picks up VHF also.
Re:Put your money where your mouth is (Score:5, Informative)
Cheap? What about those of us who really don't care about digital TV?
I guess those people shouldn't read a question submitted by someone who DOES care about digital TV, and think it applies to them.
( either by direct purchase of this 'converter', or my tax dollars going to fund them for others ).
Ignorance is fun, isn't it? Your "tax dollars" aren't going to fund the coupon program. the money is coming from the sale of the analog TV spectrum.
This whole thing is just another way to get DRM into your home
Huh? Now I know you're cracked. The converters for the coupon program all have analog out on them (and in fact are REQUIRED to ONLY have analog out).
It might actually make sense to KNOW something about the thing you're trying to make a conspiracy theory about. That way you can avoid the theories that don't even fit with the established facts.
Re:Samsung (Score:3, Informative)
I would definitely say that the SIR-T150 is among the worst tuners I've seen. I live in a fringe area, and I can tell you the T150 was not good about handling weak signals. In fact, it went back to the store and I got my Zenith HDV420, which I like much more. Definitely a superior device. Reception is better, PSIP handling is better...
It's certainly not the WORST tuner I've ever seen. I still have that one, it's the one in my Hauppauge WinTV-D which I bought way back in 2002. Now the tuner in that is pretty bad, but it was relatively cheap and I just love the signal meter and other technical data it provides.
Re:Put your money where your mouth is (Score:0, Informative)
If you are unemployed you should be looking for a job, not watching TV.
I retruned my ez47 and havent bought a replacement (Score:4, Informative)
Because of that purchase (they arent that cheap either), I have been very wary of other DVD recorder + ATSC tuner combos, and just plain ATSC Tuners as well. I have read too many reviews on multiple different ones claiming similar issues: slow channel changes, random lockups, poor UI design, failure to just do what its supposed to do, lack or errors in the program guide, etc. I wish BestBuy or someone would actually set these up for people to try to use them before taking home such a piece of crap. I actually was looking at digital tuners at Best Buy today and saw 3 of the Ez47 on the open item discount rack, and more surprisingly, at $300, more than I paid retail, and more than the brand new unopened EZ48 (same as 47 but has USB as well).
To get back on topic, the combo devices seem to all be crap. Most of the DVD recorders themselves do not come with tuners at all, which makes them almost useless without some external tuner, since almost every HDTV does not have a video-out jack (ie: how do you record the TV channel if you cant output it??). I did see a samsung HDTV tuner box, but it was $179 and probably not eligible for the coupon since it did HD signals as well. The other one was the cheapo $59 ($40 coupon eligible) converter box, which just has cable-in cable-out and A/V RCA jacks for stereo audio out and rf video out.
tm
Re:Get cable or satellite tv and you will get more (Score:5, Informative)
Comcast's carriage agreements (and apparently the FCC as well) prohibit them from recompressing any OTA-originated signals. What you'd be seeing on Comcast is exactly the same thing you'd be seeing OTA (interference notwithstanding). Hook up a device that can read the bitrate of the signal, you'll find that it's exactly the same on Comcast as it is OTA. The rest of their HD programming(non-OTA) is indeed rather compressed depending on the time and channel, but all the OTA stuff is exactly the same.
If you're seeing a difference, either your local Comcast office is not following their own agreements, or you're getting some interference on the frequencies used. IIRC the AVSforum guy who was doing quality testing last month even confirmed this.
Wow, you didn't get answers, did you? (Score:5, Informative)
I'm viewing at a threshold of 4, and it's pretty much just people telling the OP how stupid he is. It doesn't seem helpful. So, maybe this will be of assistance.
The COBY DTV 140 [alvio.com] is pretty bad-ass for people who are not on the HDTV bandwagon. It's ATSC. It will even downconvert HDTV signals to a standard old TV, if you're REALLY falling behind. It has a few outputs (DVI/Monitor, Component Video, S-Video, Composite Video). It used to be that the menus for the system would only display on a HDTV, so if you had an old SDTV, you'd have to borrow an HDTV to set it up. But newer versions have menus that work just great on SDTV, which I have, and I can confirm it works. I also have an Optoma HD70, which is a projector that can do HDTV if you can feed it a signal. The COBY works great with that too. My nearest signal comes from 39 miles away, and most are more like 45 miles away. It's able to catch a lot of those weak signals and get really good pictures. But not all.
Also, since the COBY seems to be nearing the end of its run, there is a newer item that seems to get OK reviews, the Samsung DTBH260F [amazon.com]. It's about twice as much as the COBY and it cannot downsample to SDTV, from what I have read. However, it will upsample SDTV into 720, which I don't think my COBY does (it just delivers it at 480). It also can pull in signals from about 50 miles away, which is pretty great. The Samsung is more for people who got halfway -- like the OP -- and bought a HDTV that doesn't have a tuner. It supposedly has excellent capability for assembling a great image from over-the-air signals -- better than the compressed images you get from cable. I wouldn't know. I don't own it. I just know it has good reviews. Good luck.
Also, for those of you admonishing the OP to just get cable or satellite, I would point out that I paid a one-time $80 fee to buy my product, and I've had crystal-clear free HDTV for a year now. How much have you paid for your cable or dish network over the last year? I'm pretty sure it was more than $80. So I don't think the OP is that stupid. He's aware that there are free signals out there, and he's trying to get them. That seems pretty smart, IMHO.
Re:After paying for an early HDTV... (Score:4, Informative)
http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
It's similar to the design in the video, but puts the elements on 7" centers, and uses the 3.5 inch width of the 2x4 mast it's built on to correctly position the reflector relative to them. To this I added a pair of VHF-length elements, fastened to the point where the balun is attached, and cut them to 28" each (measured from the middle of the mounting screw). I suppose technically these elements should be mounted on 24.5" standoffs, but they work fine.
Like the other one, mine isn't pretty, but it only cost me about $4 for the supplies, since I had some scrap lumber and a balun handy already. Even analog signals show a considerable improvement.
It might also be worth looking into the Hoverman design. By the look of it, these two 2x4-and-coat-hanger projects are variants of that design. This site has all the gory details, and focuses on a so-called "Gray-Hoverman" variation:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/ [digitalhome.ca]
Re:Get cable or satellite tv and you will get more (Score:3, Informative)
It's worse than that. Comcast buys their content from a variety of sources, and from what I understand that programming is often compressed all to hell (to save bandwidth charges, I suppose) before it even gets to Comcast's head end. That goes for any other cable company and/or satellite for that matter. Try watching a Stargate SG-1 re-run on Sci-Fi, for example
Re:Parent may be harsh, but it's not a troll (Score:1, Informative)
The cable company is required by law to provide you with a CableCard for any approved equipment (like your TV). They can charge only a nominal fee for this, usually around the price of the box rental.
Re:Samsung DTB-H260F - MOD PARENT UP (Score:2, Informative)
Parent comment refrences relevant product. Review available at:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/h260f.html [hdtvexpert.com]