Earthquake In China 595
Several readers sent in links on the earthquake that hit 10 hours ago near the Sichuan city of Chengdu in China. The Telegraph focuses on the citizen journalism that got word on the quake out on the Net instantly (the first report was via Twitter). Science magazine speculates that deaths from this event could exceed the 240,000 killed in the Tangshan quake in 1976, though the estimated death toll is below 10,000 at this writing. Hundreds of videos are up on YouTube, including this footage from a security camera — keep your eye on the goldfish.
Re:News for Nerds? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously.
The purpose of slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
the faster the world knows about it, the faster help can be sent for the victims.
The real tragedy of the earthquake... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:News for Nerds? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think it must be the internet angle, otherwise there should be a
Re:This is the future (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:that's actually really terrible (Score:1, Insightful)
Don't you have a heart ? Are you still a human being ?
People are dying and you are still mouthing your political garbage.
Enough !!!!
Awful, awful, awful (Score:5, Insightful)
I always have a tough time getting my mind around the numbers bandied about in these human tragedies, but just imagine if 5,000 people died in the United States from something like this.
The 1989 quake that hit Northern California caused a lot of economic damage and freaked the hell out of people. It took years for the areas hit to fully recover from it. That incident killed 67 people.
I really do hope that the numbers turn out to be lower than expected. Major suckage.
Re:This is the future (Score:1, Insightful)
"Which is interesting because I could swear China had a Youtube block to prevent such uncontrolled proliferation of footage."
ENOUGH OF THE POLITICAL GARBAGE !!!
People are suffering and all you guys can think of is "youtube block", "human rights", and so on.
C'mon, guys, people are dying there and please, have a heart, wilya ??
it is a stuff that matters (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:um not to sound like a dick (Score:2, Insightful)
The Chinese have almost 1/3 of the world's population. This is for sure nature's attempt to control population in asia. I wouldn't be surprised and really wouldn't mind if that number reaches a few more 0's at the end (atleast 2 or 3 more 0'
Just what type of motherfuckers do we have in
People are dying and they are saying shits like that.
C'mon !!!
How would you feel if your family got hit by an accident and people standing around and say
Please think before you speak, motherfucking assholes !!!!!
Re:This is the future (Score:3, Insightful)
People dying somehow make human rights stop being an issue?
If that's what you think, you're absolutely wrong. Human rights don't stop mattering because people die. They don't stop mattering if an earthquake hits. Or for a terrorist attack. Or even in an active war zone.
In this case, the news is good - China's notoriously problematic censorship system hasn't noticeably hurt people's ability to communicate vital information during a natural disaster. For many people, that means that China is measurably less repressive than they had feared. This fact is a perfectly valid topic for discussion in this thread.
Re:This is the future (Score:4, Insightful)
The fact that people are are and have died because of this earthquake does not make the means of transmission of the information less relevant. Robert1 was not heartless in anything he said, nor did he say anything inflammatory. His language, IMO, was relatively neutral.
I will say something potentially inflammatory though. The fact that there is an earthquake does not change the fact that this country violates human rights every day. To not discuss topical/relevant violations would be stupid. Hurricane Katrina did not mean that we should stop discussing the war in Iraq, did it? I realize there is a difference of scale, but I think the point stands.
The fact is, it is impressive that this much information on this quake is available in such a short time. I believe that was the point that your parent was making.
Re:A tragedy... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ummm, strangers die everyday. People have been suffering for as long as there have been people, and will continue to suffer long into the future. Get over it. Your feigned outrage isn't going to save anyone, or help avoid any tragedies.
Re:Heart ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Heart ? (Score:5, Insightful)
We just discovered that humans tend toward violence and oppression.
Wow.
Maybe someone should write about this.
Then we can study it.... maybe we could call it....
history.
And then we might learn from it.
But that would be too much work.
sigh.
Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake... (Score:3, Insightful)
The real tragedy of this world is that you can make such an insensitive comment and be modded +5 insightful.
Yeah, the video doesn't have much in it. I know how much y'all wanted to see buildings cave and people die. I mean, whoever got a hold of that video, what WERE they thinking, not editing it? It's almost like they had something more pressing at hand; oh wait.
allrigh (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Awful, awful, awful (Score:2, Insightful)
Unfortunately, earthquakes cannot be prevented. I hope that in the future these areas - particularly ones so prone to earthquakes in the first place - are able to respond better.
Compare (Score:3, Insightful)
Planes hit a couple of tall buildings in New York, a few thousand people are killed. Response: wild cries of pain and anger, unbridled hatred against anything from the Middle East, America starts two wars of revenge.
Is there something about the proportions here that isn't quite right? I mean, after the 9/11 attack sympathy poured from all over the world, even Yasser Arafat expressed his outrage against the attackers. But the response of the Americans to a major disaster in China is one ridicule and cold, heartless arrogance hiding behind and thin excuse of 'but they are evil communists'. Is that really the best you guys can manage? You know, sometimes you really make it an uphill battle to love and respect America.
Re:Well, look at it this way... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Compare (Score:3, Insightful)
The things people do to act cool...
Re:Heart ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Stop judging a nation's people by it's government's actions and the world will make a lot more sense.
Re:Compare (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Compare (Score:5, Insightful)
1) The 9/11 attacks were entirely malicious, whereas an earthquake is an accident of nature. An earthquake sucks, but it happens every now and then. Some douchebags hijacking planes and crashing them into tall populated buildings doesn't fit into most peoples' view of "usual happenings".
2) You're sampling the US's reaction based on a couple of comments made by trolls within the first 10 minutes that this post has been up. Give moderation a chance.
Re:Well, look at it this way... (Score:2, Insightful)
OP, it's like saying, oh, well, 1300 Americans died as a result of Hurricane Katrina. That's [n] less arrogant American pigs, who deserved it anyway.
Hey, I live in America, and I do not agree with - and completely resent - such a statement. I'm sure others would similarly be outraged if comments like that were made after Hurricane Katrina hit. But that that is what you are saying, with respect to China.
Meh (Score:4, Insightful)
I was surprised that the US is willing to do more for the Burmese than they were their own citizens; although it came as no surprise that no one in the Bush administration seems to have realized the irony.
Re:Heart ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Let's take race and country out of the equation, and make no mistake, I'm not standing up for the Chinese government, and I have no special knowledge or comments to make about who really has the best claim to what land, etc. But anyways:
Mass organized rioters cause mayhem in the streets. Burning shops - mind you, not the special shops marked with white flags, those were 'saved' - killing people. A disgusting lack of respect for life.
Put that in America, and you (better) have martial law and a huge crackdown.
Put that in China, and you have an oppressive regime stamping out political freedoms.
It's almost comical...were it not so sad.
Re:This is the future (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes. Human rights doesn't mean a damn thing to dead people.
Even the British Foreign Secretary said "the Chinese government are to be commended for their quick and efficient response [bbc.co.uk]". Shouldn't we give credit where it's due, instead of beating a dead horse?
Re:Heart ? (Score:3, Insightful)
But, as I've been 'all over' this article too, I feel like I should respond to your statement.
I've known people you can apply "Chinese nationalist fanboy" or "government apologist" label to. It's frightening. I don't think you quite realize the difference between a true "fanboy", as you say, and someone who just knows more (for instance, regarding Tibet). Our media here in the West is full of bias. But that's a discussion for another time.
But in my case, I feel that, knowing friends who have family in the region, I have a different perspective on this than would most
Re:This is the future (Score:5, Insightful)
It's true that these concepts have been heavily abused, to the point of governments artificially starting wars (say, Iraq or Kosovo) to preserve the state of emergency. But I don't think chinese science is advanced enough to produce a massive artificial earthquake.
Re:This is the future (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen comments (not on slashdot, elsewhere) ranging from: "serves you right, commies!" to "why would they care? those sick bastards would be murdering their own people anyway" to various smartass comments.
Yeah should have made some sick waterboarding joke when Katrina struck...
[/rant]
Re:Heart ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Heart ? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's OK if you don't have a heart though, but just don't let me see you stand on that moral high ground anymore.
Re:Compare (Score:1, Insightful)
Oh, and what a captcha I got: "positive"
Re:Heart ? (Score:4, Insightful)
The public agrees with its government's actions because they generally do. Is it so hard to accept the fact that sometimes these governments actually work for the people? Is it so hard to accept the possibility that Chinese leaders actually have a sense of responsibility and morality, and actually care about the people, instead of the vote-buying enterprise that dominates "democratic" politics?
It's ironic that in "democratic" countries governments with less than like 40% approval rating can still rule the country... and then instead of electing a better government these people bitch about "brainwashing" of other countries when an "evil" authoritarian government does a better job.
I'm not saying democracy is worse than authoritarian government... but people like you are essentially saying "you're evil!!! you can't be better than us!! it must be a trick!!". Pathetic.
Re:Heart ? (Score:4, Insightful)
furthermore, if i didnt have a heart, there is absolutely nothing barring or deterring anyone from announcing it, so just dont let me see you making such dud remarks about hearts again.
Does instant news footage make a difference? (Score:1, Insightful)
Adam Smith, The Theory of Moral Sentiments
Re:Heart ? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Compare (Score:2, Insightful)
On a tragedy like that, most of you guys instead threw out human rights and politics as usual, because 'it is China'.
Now I want to ask a question, do you guys REALLY care about anything about China? No you don't. You don't care about lives suffering/dying there because of the earthquake, and you DON'T really care about human right there either regardlessly. You just want a subject to laugh at, to talk big about. That's all.
Yes I am Chinese, and I do not even want to bother create an account to post.
And I donated. (BTW, I donated for 9/11 too. At least I have sympathy.)
Re:Heart ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is America the country where I'd rather be a citizen? Yes. Does America have flaws galore? Absolutely. But understand that the Chinese people are smart. They understand the flaws of their government. But they also understand that they have had unbelievable growth over the past 30 years, and that this ascendancy is going to cause some problems.
The problems that China faces are the same as those in America: people care more about whether they can buy the next cool thing. So long as they can, and the government keeps the economy growing so they can, they don't care what the government does. The same way we don't care what abuses our government commits so long as we get our cheap oil, food, clothes, etc. The only difference is that we have a different government system, so the abuses are done with (slightly) more caution.
Re:Compare (Score:3, Insightful)
Of all the comments here that I've read so far your comment worries me the most. Even if this is not what you expected, you're judging an entire nation on a few comments you read on this site? I'm positive a nationwide poll (not on the internet) would show above 99% of Americans have heartfelt sympathy for the Chinese from this event. The minority that don't, for some reason, are also the most vocal and ruin it for the rest of us. Myself, I wish there were something I could do rather than have to sit and watch Youtube videos of the event.
Please give what you wrote a second thought.
When you should be embarrased (Score:5, Insightful)
You ought to be embarrassed to think that way.
I don't think Chinese rescuers are thinking about chairman mao any more than US rescuers think about George Washington. I think they are more likely concerned with digging out as many wives, husbands and children so that husbands, wives and parents can have their loved ones back.
I don't see these images of destruction and desperate hoping a story of politics. Instead, I see incredible suffering, and I feel for them. I imagine how I would feel if it were my wife, or my son, smashed up inside my crushed house, if that earthquake happened to me. Thank god it didn't.
Re:Heart ? (Score:3, Insightful)
OK, so this is a flamefest and I'll pitch in
Chinese people - Han Chinese - get taught in their schools that Tibet has been part of China from way back. This may be true or it may not, I don't know. But during the late nineteenth century and up until 1958, it was not effectively true; Tibet was effectively autonomous. Furthermore, the fact that somewhere used to be 'part of' some state is no argument that it should continue to be. Half of France used to be part of England. What is now the Republic of Ireland used to be part of the United Kingdom. But the majority of the people of Ireland didn't want to be part of the United Kingdom, and so they're not now. That's how it goes.
Scotland is currently part of the United Kingdom, and nationalists - like me - want it to be independent. So we're campaigning for a referendum on independence, and sooner or later we'll get one. And if we're outvoted, we'll lose it; that's how it goes.
Nor does the Chinese argument that the theocratic government of pre-1958 Tibet was a 'bad' government wash. Yes, it wasn't democratic. Yes, it was essentially feudal. But the current Chinese administration isn't exactly in a place to throw stones.
However, where it gets tricky is this: there's a distinction between people who have been indigenous to a place for generations, and new immigrants. There are now a lot of people in Tibet who aren't indigenous to Tibet (same's true here in Scotland). It isn't their fault that they're there. And they have, it seems to me, as much right to have a say in the future administration of the place as everyone else there. So if Tibet could have a referendum on independence (which I believe they have a right to), the 'indigenous' people might not win because they might be outvoted by new immigrants.
I feel a lot of sympathy for the ethnic Tibetans, who are, I believe, having a raw deal. But I don't think that excuses the sort of race riots we saw earlier this year, where Han Chinese immigrants were attacked just because of their race.
Take a little trip with me. (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine having your legs pinned under 18 tons of concrete. You are laying in the dark under the rubble of a multi-story apartment complex. Next to you is the body of one of your children, below you is your other child, who is suffering yet refuses to die. As the rest of the world is in a warm bed or on a comfortable couch or sitting here being crass, drinking coffee and taking this in as some sort of sick Romanesque spectator sport.
Yet here you are under the rubble watching your last child suffer away and you are wishing and hoping that if you die maybe a higher power will be placated and spare your child. The pain isn't so bad anymore, except for the cries coming from under you in the rubble. The cries of people who had dreams that will likely never be realized. The cries of pain and anguish. You hope for some relief before the dark comes, but only rain water dripping down on you. The darkness comes the cries continue. The pain continues. You watch your child draw his last breath.
Those of you without sympathy for the suffering are the ones that need to be lined up and shot on sight.
Just 2 cents from a red blooded American!
Remember that scenario is happening now....
From the USA: Today we are all Chinese (Score:4, Insightful)
China is a pretty powerful country, but if there's anything China needs, I hope they ask just ask. Americans would be honored to help.
Re:This is the future (Score:3, Insightful)
Among these people could have been the next great scientist,
or someone that could have contributed to the world in a
significant manner.
If all the ppl in the world were put in Texas, everyone would
get roughly 1,152 sq feet.
So to me the over population hysteria is just a myth.
Food growth with vertical hydroponics could took the place
of large land plots and actually be cheaper once the
engineering is fine tuned.
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS199249+13-Mar-2008+MW20080313 [reuters.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics#Commercial [wikipedia.org]
125 million lbs on 256 acres, ie. less than
10,000 sq miles would be 2.5 trillion lbs. and that is
just 100 miles by 100 miles.
This is with just conventional hydroponics, not Vertical
Growth High Density which yields 20 times standard soil yields.
If half the area of the farmers in the US that are PAID to
grow nothing did this it would feed the world MANY times over.
It needs to be done diversely around the world in areas
that are considered non arable, because hydroponics works
on land that is not even good for farming once you get
a decent water supply and some type of nutrients.
One natural loop method is fish in the water, and insects
for their food, and the insects as food for each other as well.
Catfish in Vietnam get up to 646 lbs.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/photogalleries/giantcatfish/ [nationalgeographic.com]
Much like occurs in nature, but add natural stimulus factors for
each of the participant species.
I also think at some distant time we will need to move out
into space if our species is to survive at all.
More than one planet killer has struck earth and originated
from earth itself.
1) Gamma Ray Burst
2) Super volcano
3) Asteroid or Comet Impact
Population Freakazoids even have their own monument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones [wikipedia.org]
Re:Twitter? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Heart ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Did it occur to you that all your posts (not just this one) and arguments are based on pure speculation, in turn based on unfounded bias? Did it occur to you that such reasoning methods are flaky? And make yourself sound like an idiot?
Actually it somehow occurred to me that you MIGHT be raping young girls in your basement and killing their babies. (how do I know? you have no evidence to show otherwise...) Yes, so you're a sicko now.
Re:Twitter? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, the moral is: Don't believe that everything is well just because someone who's job it is to keep you pacified says so.
Now get off my lawn, you neo-pagan hippie :D!
Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Heart ? (Score:2, Insightful)
I mean, also, America kind of fucking invaded America and have been migrating Europeans there, totally diluting the American population, so I don't *quite* think that's a strong point you've made.
You're saying protest was merited. Granted. But burn shops and kill people and shit, and there'd better be some arrests.
Re:The purpose of slashdot (Score:3, Insightful)
Realistically, no.
Technology has been sufficiently advanced to provide information about natural disasters effectively instantly for about a century. I say "effectively", because it doesn't much matter whether you hear about it 1 minute after it happened, or one day after it happened, if it takes you a minimum of two days to provide any meaningful response.
This quake in China is an example of that - we knew about it within minutes of occurrence. But we won't be able to get any meaningful aid into the area for a couple days. And that won't change in the foreseeable future, unless we keep airplane loads of emergency supplies on +10 all over the world, all the time.
Which won't happen. Even if everyone in the world wanted something like that, as soon as the price tag was seen, they'd be back to talking about Paris Hilton....
Re:Heart ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Bread and circuses. The stuff works, and it has been refined over the course of many years. Maybe one day you tell people that they have to follow your rules so they can have life after death and the next day you dangle their credit score in front of them, but the process is the same.
Shut up, do your work, and you get to buy stuff.
Re:Just one question.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is the future (Score:3, Insightful)
Complaining about active and/or recent human rights violations will never be "beating a dead horse". Some issues get old and boring - this one never does.
That's not to say that we shouldn't give the Chinese government full credit for effective disaster response, probably with a reference to how much better they did than the US did for Hurricane Katrina. But just because they did a good job at one thing today doesn't magically mean that something bad they've been doing for years has gone away.
Re:This is the future (Score:3, Insightful)
I vehemently disagree. It's always the time to make a stand for political freedoms and human rights.
If there were ever a circumstance (say, war) that would make it "not the time", tyrants would make damn sure that that circumstance were always true.
Re:This is the future (Score:3, Insightful)
As an American, I absolutely agree.
But "we're not perfect, therefore we can't criticize anyone else" is an invalid argument. Any government that violates human rights deserves criticism.
Re:Heart ? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's certainly possible he did since smallpox ravaged colonial and native populations in the area, but he could have just been brainstorming.
I only mention it because you should base your arguments on the clearly proven offenses, and not the ones that may or may not have occurred. There was certainly no hard policy of this behavior set down.
Re:Heart ? (Score:3, Insightful)
I am typically very critical of the CCP, but TacoCowboy speaks the truth. This isn't about the CCP. The quake is a human tragedy. Show some respect. Good people are dead.
Like you, I am particularly disturbed by Chinese nationalists. These rabid haters are ignorant, racist, and unthinking -- and their rants, most disturbingly, belie violent fantasies of Sino-"Western" war. I can think of particular Slashdot users who fit this description, who really do frighten me (though I won't name them here). But Taco Cowboy isn't one of them. if you look at some of his other posts (e.g., this one [slashdot.org], or even the one you linked to), it's true that he does have a penchant for defending China, but not rabidly, and not without recognizing China's faults as well. He clearly has opinions, but they strike me as reasonable.
It's true; he's all over this thread. But he makes a point worth making. It's a little sad that he has to be making this point.
Besides, in fact I shouldn't have needed to write most of the above two paragraphs, because your post was really an ad-hominem argument. Does it really matter that it was Taco Cowboy in particular who wrote the sentences to which you were responding? They are either right or wrong on their own merits.
In this case, they were correct.
The quake was a tragedy. Sympathies to those affected.