French Judge Orders Refund For Pre-Installed XP 663
Racketiciel writes "A French user asked for a refund after buying an ASUS computer
that came with Windows XP and other software pre-installed. ASUS tried to
apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer than they
will give back... The court ruled in favor of the user,
who received back 130 Euro (~200 $) for the software.
Here is the ruling (PDF, French). In France, this is the fourth victory for refund seekers during the last two years,
and many people are now filing for refunds (in French). Two French associations (AFUL
and April) published
a press release on this victory the same day an important hearing happened." The English-language press release linked above gives a pretty good idea of what happened here, for those unsuited to wading through French.
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:0, Informative)
Why should Ford have had to remove this feature from their vehicle when the consumer already knew it existed when they purchased it? Surely they had read the reviews beforehand.
Well, as it turned out, the courts sided with the consumer in this case as well.
It's just another example of the consumer taking advantage of the trust of helpless corporations.
When will this madness end?
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Informative)
If you don't like the law, stay out of France. The majority of the population here like it very much as it keeps the competition alive and healthy.
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:If you don't like the bundle (Score:4, Informative)
Actually you're wrong, in France this is a right covered by law: two products sold together must be available alone too. You may agree or not with it, but in the end it's law and computer seller have to do it, so when an user go to court he wins.
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How does this make sense? Easily (Score:5, Informative)
The computer was sold with XP pre-installed & a "shrink-wrapped" EULA. She wanted a computer but not XP, but was unable to buy a computer without XP pre-installed. This is generally called "The Microsoft Tax", because people who buy computers in order to run other Operating Systems (yes there are others) are forced to pay this tax.
She didn't want to pay this "tax" so asked to be refunded the cost of XP.
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Informative)
You missed the point, read the ruling (Score:2, Informative)
This means that if you want to buy a computer without the OS they must sell it to you without it
and not charge you for windows that you don't want.
Re:French (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How does this make sense? Easily (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why the hell should customers "JUST SUCK IT UP" (Score:3, Informative)
Yay.
Disclaimer: I have no association with them other than being a satisfied customer
Re:Just a thought. (Score:4, Informative)
Point 1) As offered by the VENDOR, the customer simply exercised their LEGAL right to not agree with the EULA supplied with laptop as they didn't want the OS but wanted the laptop.
Point 2) Well, thats just silly. Again, please read Point 1.
But I suppose having people exercise their rights to not be ripped off by what amounts to not much more than collusion is somehow against the constitution?
Bear in mind, quite often in principle the groups supporting people like this, are also the groups supporting things like, not being discriminated against with DNA testing, health insurance, etc, etc. But I guess you would see things like that as bad for business too?
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Informative)
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:5, Informative)
No it's not, and quit the stupid analogies (Score:5, Informative)
If you or Asus don't like it, why don't you fucking go to Russia or something?
The EULA claims so (Score:3, Informative)
Big fucking surprise.
This thread is so full of fail, it's painful.
Re:Wait... (Score:3, Informative)
"YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE."
Since the guy couldn't read the EULA before purchasing, and since tying the OS to the computer is illegal in France (and a bunch of other EU countries), he's perfectly right to return the thing and get his money back.
Re:French (Score:5, Informative)
France-Bashing and Overlord Memes (Score:5, Informative)
The "French surrender a lot" meme is different - whatever its origin, and the Onion article that helped propagate it in the ~2000 timeframe, the US right wing started pushing it heavily during the run-up to the US invasion of Iraq, because the French weren't jumping onto Bush's bandwagon, and it was a convenient way to get the rubes to attack anyone who wasn't cooperating, further drawing them in to the neo-con's frame of reference.
But it was especially important for Bush, because the obvious name to call the Iraqis who fought back against the US-led invasion would have been The "Iraqi Resistance", in parallel to the French Resistance of WWII, who everybody remembers at least vaguely as having been brave fighters against an overwhelming attacker, which was really really not the meme that Rove et al wanted to have around.
Re:No it's not, and quit the stupid analogies (Score:5, Informative)
No, you are wrong. It is a sensible law which has been based upon sound principles to ensure fair trading in France. You may not like it - but that doesn't make it stupid. (However, whether you like it or not is irrelevant, unless you live in France. The French like this law, or at least the majority do, and it is up to them which laws they have in their own country.) The law is intended to prevent tie-ins to any specific manufacturer which are not in the public interest. Your 'earlier explanation' can be easily countered. Those who are content to be tied to Microsoft's offering are free to buy the computer with the OS pre-installed. But those who do not agree to this have legal recourse to have the OS removed and fair costs refunded. This point has been argued for many times here on /. and I am surprised that when it is actually applied then someone thinks it is 'stupid'. What is stupid about giving users a choice, or people having the freedom to spend their money how they wish?
Your claim about the EULA is also wrong. Of course the purchaser might expect to be presented with a EULA but the EULA that you are supporting is not readable until it has been opened which in itself constitutes acceptance of it. That is not legal in France - or the rest of Europe for that matter. Secondly, the wrapping states quite clearly that, if you do not wish to accept the conditions of the EULA then you may return it unopened for a full refund. The customer was doing exactly this but was having unreasonable barriers placed before him to prevent him from benefiting from the refund. The judge viewed that as unfair and ordered ASUS to refund fair costs. Both Microsoft and ASUS are well aware of the statement on the EULA wrapping but both, in their own way, were attempting to make it uneconomical for the purchaser to exercise his rights.
Re:French (Score:2, Informative)
The other countries that you mention as having surrendered didn't get the same treatment.
Re:French (Score:5, Informative)
I'm an Australian and I haven't heard that joke before. Perhaps more indicative is the fact that in two world wars French freedom stood for something that Australians were willing to die for. The French had no useful allies in the second world war in their time of need: the Americans didn't care and the British hardly had an army, let alone an army on the Continent. The disaster that befell France happened due to inaction of the democracies from 1935 onwards; the French army in 1940 can't take much of the blame, the situation was completely hopeless by then.
"You knew what the EULA was" (Score:3, Informative)
No you don't. The EULA is INSIDE the package, genius.
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:French (Score:2, Informative)
One of the few things I know of my grand-grand-father is that he had drank his pee while defending his country from (probably) your grand grand father? This war was terrible. Millions died, not least by the incompetency of the generals, and on both sides soldiers did their duty to the end in the most horrific conditions. No one could live the battlefront with any sanity left. Don't talk me about being taken over, because we didn't fail despite contrary odds, and thanks to the US and English and Canadian and Australian help.
When came the second world war, with the generals having made more or less the same errors as before ww1, I can understand that people only wanted to avoid a second tranch war. Actually, given that my small town of birth (Saint Laurent Blangy) was flattened (higher wall left after the war in the whole town: 1 meter) during ww1, my grand mother told me many times how women and children alike thrown themselves on the roads as soon as they knew ww2 was coming. This was an exodus to the south.
http://images.google.com/images?q=arras%20ruines%20guerre&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enFR258FR258&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi [google.com]
ps: let's hope you don't keep other funny ideas in your "German psyche / German blood".
pps: yeah for Europe.
Re:French (Score:5, Informative)
They might have been "gutless" but they didn't surrender. And while certain elements were certainly nazi-friendly (notably the king), a lot of Swedes were actively helping the Norwegian resistance in bringing people who needed to escape over the border. A lot of Norwegian resistance fighters who got close to being captured can thank them for getting a safe haven when the nazis started closing in on them in Norway.
Re:Learn from history (Score:4, Informative)
Yes I am for real, I would expect any Australian (or American for that matter - but I hate them just as much as any other race) to fight to the last drop of blood for their country.
Ok leave Hollywood version of war for a second...here is how it works in real life: Would it include that you would happily sacrifice women, new born babies, children, eldery people? Look at your girlfriend, your mother, and your children and imagine them dead...Not a nice quick death mind you...Imagine them almost wounded by sharpnels and agonizing for hours, or burn to death for the sake of your nation honnor.
Because that's what happen when the fight actually happens in your country, street fights, bombing cities and all. Look at the Rotterdam bombing. The Dutch dared to resist and their main city was litteraly flatenned (citizens included). Or Belgians franc tireur dared to act as snipers and then Nazis shot randomly 20 citizens for each killed soldier. War isn't about being a hero or anything, war is hell. So please before taking such a pompeous position think twice (and I guess you have never experienced war...Let alone facing Nazis SS divisions).
Re:No it's not, and quit the stupid analogies (Score:3, Informative)
But it's NOT necessary for using the end product. LiveCD's are proof of that. And you can generally find models with or without the various add-in components.
To add to it, there is a market for operating systems independent of computers, which further solidified the arguments that they are independent products.
That does not forbid selling them together, but it also under the laws of MOST European countries make it legally questionable to require a customer to buy them together.
It's there for a reason: We actually care about the consumers rights, and companies better accept if they want access to our markets. Experience shows that not only is this good for consumers, but it's also good for the market as it encourages unhindered competition.
Re:French (Score:3, Informative)
Re:France-Bashing and Overlord Memes (Score:5, Informative)
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:3, Informative)
No EULA on (most) Linux (Score:4, Informative)
Windows wants you to agree to an EULA. Said EULA says that if you refuse you can get a refund.
We want the damn refund.
That is all.
Re:Will this be applicable in the US, UK or AU? (Score:3, Informative)