French Judge Orders Refund For Pre-Installed XP 663
Racketiciel writes "A French user asked for a refund after buying an ASUS computer
that came with Windows XP and other software pre-installed. ASUS tried to
apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer than they
will give back... The court ruled in favor of the user,
who received back 130 Euro (~200 $) for the software.
Here is the ruling (PDF, French). In France, this is the fourth victory for refund seekers during the last two years,
and many people are now filing for refunds (in French). Two French associations (AFUL
and April) published
a press release on this victory the same day an important hearing happened." The English-language press release linked above gives a pretty good idea of what happened here, for those unsuited to wading through French.
I'm torn about this subject (Score:1, Insightful)
You bought what you bought. If you took the XP as part of the package, you should be stuck with it. You knew what the EULA was. Don't like it? Choose one of the many systems from another vendor that come with Linux or no OS.
But... It's not the OEM's job to decide for you what software to run. If you want just the computer with no OS on it you should have that option. If people use declining the EULA to work around the fact that OEMs don't offer no-OS options or the crudware is just offensive, I guess that's the best we can do.
If enough people did this, the no-OS option would become available. But... society is too litigious already and more of this doesn't help.
Can't we all just get along?
Wait... (Score:3, Insightful)
ASUS (or wherever distributor) probably has the option of having a barebones components only option for purchasing, so do that, or at least ask if you can get one if its not advertised.
If it says "Comes With Windows XP Pre-Installed"... and he bought it, and then said "hey wait I dont want this"... too damn bad... keep the machine, or send the entire PC back... its not like it failed (jokes aside) as if it was a dud NIC or something...
"ASUS tried to apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer that they will give back..."
Tried? it seemed to have worked.
Anyone have a more informative non-french link to exactly what he bought, and what was advertised, etc?
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:1, Insightful)
The fact is it is very hard to find systems without the operating system at the same cost as you would find from a place that sells enough systems with windows preinstalled for the total hardware cost to be cheaper. In fact, its impossible, unless you want to prove me wrong.
The fact is, Windows is being FORCED on people.
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Insightful)
But if i'm not mistaken the EULA does say "Click Disagree" and then take it back for a refund?
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:4, Insightful)
How can I agree to something I haven't read yet?
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Insightful)
If I wanted an ASUS Computer, I should be able to buy JUST THAT. Most manufacturers still dont have a "No OS" option for their configured systems, and I'm damn sure that there isn't a single computer sold in a retail store that has "No OS" as an optional package(at least in the US).
Look, if the guy doesn't want to pay the Microsoft Tax, then he shouldn't have to. Last time I checked, they were 2 completely seperate companies, ASUS and Microsoft. Imagine that if every manufacturer pre-installed a $1000 copy of Adobe CS3 and you couldn't opt out of it, wouldn't you be a little pissed off? Wouldn't you feel that you'd have the right to get your money back for something you didn't want in the first place? This isn't the slightest bit different. Not to mention the whole EULA problem. If you can't see the EULA before you purchase something, you can't just say "Oh, well, I won't buy this then". If he didn't agree with the EULA upon starting his computer (which it may not have even appeared, if ASUS preinstalled XP, which would create a whole new problem in itself) then he has every right to tell ASUS to kiss his ass and give him his money back.
Apple (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not like they'd put up a fight...
You mean, like they did when they defeated the British Army and won the American War of Independence?
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:2, Insightful)
English grass (Score:1, Insightful)
As for the ruling. When do two wrongs make a right? This seems like a very meddlesome court. Sure they are fighting the excesses of bundling when monopoly software is involved. But I'd rather see them attack the root of the problem than set lousy practices like this as precedent.
As they say when elephants fight the grass gets hurt. Asus is the grass.
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:English grass (Score:5, Insightful)
The *real* second wrong here is that the person had to go to court to get what they should have been able to buy in the first place.
Re:If you don't like the bundle (Score:2, Insightful)
You can't force someone to accept the terms of a license simply thru purchase. If you could, then I would sell iPhones for $1 which also include my special new license that entitles me to half of your yearly salary.
Your "too bad you bought it" doesn't hold up. If it did, then does that mean that once we make the purchase we can copy and redistribute it? Or decompile and alter it? If you say "too bad you bought it", then I've got my own theory that says "too bad you sold it to me".
Well, it turns out that the situation isn't so lawless, because there's something called a software license. Once again, you can't force someone to accept a license, especially if you haven't even been given the opportunity to read the license yet. The license says that you don't have to accept it, but if you do then you can't do things such as modify the software or copy it and distribute it to others for free. But the people in bed with M$ are hoping that you won't decline the software license, because there's usually a part in it which says that you're entitled to a refund if you don't agree.
I applaud the people in these articles for standing up for their rights. It's not stupid socialist law, it's simply using the software license against M$. They're hoping you won't take them up on that part of the deal, and will blindly accept the Microsoft Tax even if you don't want it.
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:5, Insightful)
What it will do is encourage the companies to not force bundled software. Either they'll make a point of selling bare-bones PC's, or they'll start honoring refund requests. If their licensing with Microsoft prevents that, then maybe they'll consider another operating system (which Microsoft would never allow to happen, Microsoft will just lower the price of licensing to make sure sales continue).
Nothing says it'd have to be Linux, it could be joe schmoes Perl-based OS if that's what Asus thought was a good deal for customers.
'Tied Selling' is illegal in many states. (Score:5, Insightful)
Learn from history (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:English grass (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm asking seriously, how is this any different than a computer. The point is if you start to apply this law to other items it illustrates how absurd it is, and how nonsensical it becomes to do business over any product that isn't a single component.
You get relegated to selling only apples, single cuts of meat, individual plates, DVD seasons that are sold by disc - the case also separate, and every piece of electronic equipment is a build-it-yourself of basic single electronic components (sold separately by law)!
This is dumb (Score:4, Insightful)
This agreement states that if you do not agree to the terms you may turn off the computer and request a refund for Windows.
Anyone and Everyone who buys a new computer with windows pre-installed has the right to get a refund for Windows.
The reason this went to court was because ASUS was charging the customer more for shipping than they were refunding for Windows.
Anyone who says this shouldn't have gone to court is shooting themselves in the foot.. Even us in the USA have the right to return windows if we disagree with the EULA. I don't want OEM's making it cost me money to do so!
Re:Just a thought. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:'Tied Selling' is illegal in many states. (Score:2, Insightful)
Having a standard operating system allows computer companies to actually have customer support for software...you take that away and they will have to spend millions on retraining and in the end it would make PCs more expensive...or they could just not offer support at all. That's kind of beside the point, but you get my drift, if ASUS no longer can sell XP pre-installed on a computer, it should then have the right to offer the customer who is not running Windows no support...the company has a preference to an operating system (agree with it or not) that is outside of your own preference, because it allows them to actually offer you a general line of support...and the company has every right to do that...you act as if the company has no rights. If you don't accept those company policies then you should go buy elsewhere, it is a free market...well unless a judge says it isn't...
I'd like to sue Apple for forcing me to buy OSX, when I just want to install Windows on it...you could say "but that's Apple's right, it's their software and hardware"...yeah if you are correct, and the same logic can be applied to ASUS...it's their right, it's their product. If you don't like it, then don't buy it.
Re:Just a thought. (Score:3, Insightful)
No, people exercising their rights is fine. No one should be ripped off. What I'm saying however, is if the vendor did not sell her the product the way she wanted it, why would she buy it just to sue? I'm more than certain that she had alternative choices.
Because she didn't have any alternative choices. Unless you're a techno-geek who knows how to build your own system from parts, or you're looking for a subnotebook like the XO or the EEE, it's incredibly difficult to find anything that doesn't come with a Microsoft OS bundled. If you're looking for a name-brand consumer machine (ie. you're not buying on a corporate account), it's effectively impossible. This person, like most, had two choices: buy a computer with some variety of Windows bundled, or don't buy a computer.
The French court here seems to be saying "The specific OS isn't an integral part of the computer, witness all the ones sold with different OSes. It's easy enough for vendors to supply a machine without an OS. Under French law the consumer has the right not to be forced to buy additional products just to get the one they're nominally buying. The vendor's refund program appears to acknowledge that, but it's more convoluted and costly than it has any reason to be. Vendor, stop playing games and give her the money back like the law says you have to.".
Re:How does this make sense? Easily (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
And Germany (then Prussia) saved the world from France once. At the battle of Waterloo.
Not only did Blücher's troops play a huge part in it, Wellington's troops also had a big share of German troops.
So I guess if you dig around long enough then most of the major nations have once saved other nation's asses and at other times kicked other nation's asses. So what.
Re:How does this make sense? Easily (Score:5, Insightful)
But since you brought up Apple, what if someone for whatever reason wanted to by an Apple computer, but didn't want OSX? Apple doesn't give you the option to buy a Mac pro w/o an OS. Of course that's a moot point, since most people would buy a Mac because of the OS rather than them simply getting a PC and taking whatever OS they're given.
Re:Just a thought. (Score:3, Insightful)
So no, I'm reasonably sure it wasn't possible to get that machine without Windows, which is product tying and illegal (in France and other countries) anyway. Second, she couldn't read the EULA before she bought the product, but as the EULA allows her to return the Windows license for a refund if she doesn't agree with it, she's completely right.
Re:French (Score:4, Insightful)
I've been living in Japan for 12 years now, and it's really amazing how perseveringly most English native speakers manage not to learn the local language beyond the level of a 4-year-old. It's amazing.
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Learn from history (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. Perhaps there should be a meme according to which the Jews are ridiculed for surrendering and letting themselves be herded off to camps, instead of nobly fighting to the death on their doorsteps as they ought to have? No, I didn't think so.
More to the point, all this WWI and WWII talk is just a retrospective justification. The real reason we hear Americans (and only Americans) making these bigoted comments is because Jacques Chirac used the UN veto against an attack on Iraq, thus making the subsequent invasion a war crime under the Nuremberg Principles. The fact that Chirac has now been proven quite right, with WMDs and suchlike now known to be a pack of lies, does not seem to embarrass the bigots at all.Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
The truth of history is completely at odds with this, Americas success came from being geographically isolated from it all and more than a bit of international help when needed. This and the same double crossing ruthlessness that they accuse the rest of the world of has led to the USA of now, not some magical concoction of pixie dust available only to Americans. Just population and a smooth run for over 100 years. My country's the same, but we just call ourselves lucky.
It's nicer to believe myths than the truth, especially a truth that painfully goes against everything you 'know'.
Even the truth of what the French endured last century is quite painful to understand to a reasonable person. How many tens of millions dead and wounded, how viciously they fought in WW1, under conditions that make Iraq and Vietnam look like a stay at the Hilton in comparison. Where chemical weapons were used by both sides like regular munitions, fields were metres thick with the dead tens of thousands of men, who died to gain inches of land. Then 20 years later they have to do it all over again.
Then fifty years later three thousand out of two hundred million yanks die in the first attack on her home soil...well ever, and the biggest tantrum in the last fifty years is thrown and we're told over and over and over again how we should all feel so sorry and damn it, it's just the worst thing ever to happen to anyone! We listen for nearly a decade about how awful it all was, patting them on the head, saying "there there it's ok". All the while quietly waiting for them to grow a pair and grow the fuck up. How they have the audacity to put shit on the frogs who each and everyone lived through, experienced *personally* not just on the TV or paper, and fought valiantly in the most awful warfare in the history of this world...twice, when they carry on like such a bunch of drama queens about such a tiny incident in the history of the world is quite frankly embarrassing.
It's ok to have a bit of a dig and friendly rivalry, but the yanks seem to have started believing their bullshit. The comparison of an immature bratty teenager really is apt.
It's not about IF but HOW (Score:3, Insightful)
What the court has said was that it was not fair to charge you $200 for the software but only refund you $25 if you didn't choose to accept it.
And doesn't matter where you are from or how you buy your software/systems/pc - charging you $200 for something and refunding you $25 for it in an unused state is simply not fair.
Re:Just a thought. (Score:2, Insightful)
Here's the basic rundown of US consumer rights:
-You have the right to not be misled regarding what you are buying.
-You have the right to refuse to buy something.
That's it (I don't think I've missed anything big). In addition to those, we have anti-monopoly laws, the basic gist of which is:
-You cannot, through monopolistic powers, interfere with the business of competitors.
For instance, you can't say (to a consumer) "I'll sell you my widgets cheaper if you agree to not buy widgets from Bob for the next year." You also cannot say (to a distributer) "I won't allow you to distribute my goods so long as you also carry Bob's brand of goods." The reason these things are are bad is that you are pushing Bob out of the market without actually competing with him. And that's the essence of these laws: competition.
Now the reason this French law seems stupid to Americans is because Microsoft is not preventing competition with anyone! Certainly if they are using their market power to keep ASUS from bundling with competitors (or, I suppose, selling an unbundled product), that's a problem; but really what the French law is trying to do is **preempt** the harmful act, and in doing so it is overly broad.
At least that's how Americans see it.
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:2, Insightful)
To make a better car analogy, it would be like selling a car with a mandatory insurance policy or a 10-year repair contract.
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:4, Insightful)
Times are truly changing (Score:5, Insightful)
Either the people here are different now or it is french bashing time. Maybe both.
Re:French (Score:2, Insightful)
americans are loud mouths, who have no idea about anything outside their own country.
Re:French (Score:3, Insightful)
And like all teenagers they think they can fix all the worlds problems, almost cute
Re:French (Score:2, Insightful)
So when Belgium and France surrendered, they surrendered to a country they themselves were at war with. But when Germany invaded the Netherlands they attacked a country that had invested little in the military since the turn of the century and that explicitly chosen to stay neutral in the conflict.
Re:Learn from history (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:France-Bashing and Overlord Memes (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically, the French did not wanted to see their city destroyed by German tanks in the WW2. So the French goverment left the city and declared Paris an "Open City".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France#New_German_offensive_and_the_fall_of_Paris [wikipedia.org]
Re:No it's not, and quit the stupid analogies (Score:2, Insightful)
The operating system is a component of the computer, just like the processor, video card, sound card, network card, monitor, keyboard, mouse, ... Just because it's not hardware doesn't make it less necessary for using the end product.
If your going to complain about the OS, why not complain that they won't sell a specific PC without and AMD processor or a Tyan motherboard? And if you're going to go there, why not complain about the resistors and individual components on the boards? They're all made by different companies, and the way you're interpretting the law would require letting the consumer pick and choose. If that's where you're heading with this, I guess I see your side of the argument, I just don't understand it.
Okay, fair enough. Not presenting the EULA until after purchase is a bit sneaky, even if it is common practice. But in this case, since the customer didn't buy the OS itself, wouldn't "return for a refund" be referring to the whole PC? If they didn't buy the OS, how can they get a refund for it? Can I rip out the processor and return it specifically? No, if it were bad, I'd have to replace or get a refund for the whole PC.
Re:Learn from history (Score:3, Insightful)
Recent animosity may have made it popular - but it was well known and in common use last century.
Not that it invalidates the rest of your argument - but the meme predates its use for retrospective justification.
Re:French (Score:3, Insightful)
Americans (I am one) had no problem with the French I think until it came time to drop bombs on Lybia. The French denied fly-over rights. Now we are in a war with Iraq and the French haven't sent troops. I think both decisions by France were wise and justifiable. Now Americans blame the French for a big costly war when instead they should blame themselves for their own gullibility. Americans have a "with us or for terrorism" ideology, which is a silly ideology. You'll see some idiots quote stats about the the percentage of the French population that is Muslim and other pseuodo-intellectual arguments. Personally, I think Americans should get a grip on reality, grow some brains, get the hell out of Iraq, stop pissing every one off, and stop blaming every one else for their problems. I'm an American and I've done it.
That said, I personally have a problem with France because of mimes. Mimes suck and France should never had invented them.
Re:No it's not, and quit the stupid analogies (Score:3, Insightful)
It's there for a reason: We actually care about the consumers rights, and companies better accept if they want access to our markets. Experience shows that not only is this good for consumers, but it's also good for the market as it encourages unhindered competition.
Does this mean that Apple sells bare-bones Macs in France? Is their EULA stating that Mac OS/X must only run on Apple hardware invalid?
MadCow.
Vive la France (Score:2, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Times are truly changing (Score:3, Insightful)
place has been flooded with microsoft shills for ages now... I'm convinced Microsoft employs PR hacks to patrol websites to counter anti-microsoft positions and post pro-microsoft posts. There's so many posting in here that they've managed to gain high karma by modding their puppets up at every opportunity...
Re:Stop with the stupidity (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:French (Score:4, Insightful)
That said (going with Europe since Europe seems to be the chosen "enemy" in this little discussion), our country is darned near as big as the entire continent of Europe. Our individual states are the size of many countries there. International travel isn't going to be as common - we can travel all over and see all sorts of different cultures, ideals, and geographic features within our own country. As far as variations and ideas, and regional politics, your average American has a lot more to keep track of to follow only "their own country" compared to most citizens of European nations.
Trust me, for all the animosity you might think we harbor towards you guys, most Americans don't really care one way or another, and we pick on ourselves much more. Heck just watch and wait until a story about a Southern US state pops up. You'll see countless (just as stereotyped and unwarranted) jokes about incest or the IQ of people in that state.