Wood Density May Explain Stradivarius Secret

Whorhay writes "A Dutch doctor and a violin maker from Arkansas have compared five classical and eight modern violins in a computed tomography (CT) scanner. Apparently the 300-year-old violins are made of wood with a more consistent density than the modern violins. They aren't saying for sure that this is what gives the Stradivarius violins their unique sound, but it's the first scientific explanation I've heard for it that seems to have merit." Unfortunately science has yet to explain how how all three chords I know ROCK on my SG.

In past it was chemical treatments and soaked wood

[blahbooboo]

Well, perhaps this is the final verdict? However, in the past the claim was the wood was from logs that were at the bottom of a swamp or something. Also, it was thought to be the chemical treatment. I suspect this is just the latest theory.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Stradivarius-Violins-Mystery-Solved-41462.shtml [softpedia.com]

New news?

[demonbug]

They aren't saying for sure that this is what gives the Stradivarius's their unique sound but it's the first scientific explanation I've heard for it that seems to have merit.

This idea (and papers supporting it) have been around for years... a quick Google Scholar [google.com] search turns up papers going back to at least 2003. The only new part was the use of CT imagery, as far as I can tell.

Re:Harmonics

[bigtomrodney]

I wouldn't be all that surprised. Wood quality has always been a key factor in instruments. Even with electric guitars weight and density are considered a good thing. You'll find people complaining how heavy their Les Paul Custom is yet still play it for the sustain the extra weight provides. And Swamp Ash is a preferred material for Stratocasters and Telecasters because it is very hard while not being as heavy. High density again would provide for more fidelity in sound transfer.But hey, don't expect the science to devalue the old instruments. A '59 'Burst can still cost you $250,000.

Re:This has been known for years

[b4upoo]

There is much confusion among musicians as to what causes tone qualities in various instruments. Violins may well be locked to resonance
more than other instruments. But for brass and woodwinds the hardness of the material is overwhelming as an influence. What is not clear in any instrument is to what degree the hardness of the surface coatings are vital as opposed to the hardness of the material underneath the coatings. Dr. Adolf Sax from whom the saxophone gets its name was the genius who discovered the importance of surface coatings.

Re:This has been known for years

[peragrin]

It would have to be an indoor tree farm, as things like cool temperatures, sunlight, humidity would all have to be carefully controlled. If a little ice age can slow the growth of the trees down you would have to duplicate that, over a period of 30-50 years to grow the slow growth trees large enough for timber.

Re:Harmonics

[tompaulco]

Acoustically, a consistent density would tend toward one resonance frequency (and it's harmonics), whereas an inconsistent density could have many resonance frequencies and their harmonics, which would probably be less pleasing to the air. I know it wouldn't work well for a violin, but when designing subwoofer boxes, it is recommended to use particle board for reasons of both structural rigidity and almost complete lack of resonance frequency.

Re:Create some new ones ?

[e4g4]

Indeed - and like a great wine, a great violin improves with age. As closely as we might be able to mimic the construction of a Strad as it was 300 years ago, that 300 years is hard to fake.

Re:Harmonics

[HolyCrapSCOsux]

Not likely. Jackson made and aluminum guitar, and I thought that it soundedking of harsh. My mahogany guitar sounds different than my ash guitar and my mystery wood guitar, they all have maple necks and the same model picukps. Mahogany is warm, ash is a little bright, etc.

I also think a crystal guitar would buckle the first time you put the strings on. they run at 16+ pounds of tension per string.

Re:Harmonics

[Anonymous Psychopath]

I saw a special, on History Channel I think, where they thought that the trees that Stradivarius used to make his violins had unusual density qualities caused by the mini ice age.

Re:This has been known for years

[Slashidiot]

I also think there is some other reason why Stradivari violins are so good. It's called bias. Yes, they are fine instruments, no doubt, about the best there is, no doubt. But can you detect a Stradivarius without knowing it is one? And telling it apart from a Guarnerius or Amati? Or even a good quality modern instrument?

There is a good bit of knowing it is an expensive instrument in hearing a big difference. The player plays a much bigger role. A good player on a good day with a cheap violin can sound better than that same player on a bad day with a Stradivarius.

In short, Stradivari violins are not that good. Stop trying to find the magic, because there is none.

Re:Harmonics

[m50d]

Crystal, particularly Quartz, wouldn't buckle; it's far too brittle for that. It'd either stay solid or shatter, and given the strength of the stuff, I'd imagine the former. It might actually be worth making, though how the hell GP is proposing to get a quartz crystal large enough to carve a guitar out of I don't know (and if the top isn't carved from a single contignous piece of the original material, it's practically guaranteed to sound awful).

Re:Harmonics

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey I don't normally post and too lazy to make an account. But on the side, I am a vibration expert. A few fundimentals that you actually bring up. Instruments such as a guitar or violin, use the chamber to cause the amplification of certain frequencies.
This amplification is called Resounance.
Resounance is a multiplier to a force frequency and is a function of mass and stiffness. If we all remember D = M/V so the more dense it is for it's size the more mass it has.
The more mass the lower it's natural resounance is.
The fact that the wood is more dense and consistent means the instrument is more consistent and it's lower frequencies are amplified more. The stiffness is depicted by it's shape, and the standard violin shapes are commonly used so a large amount of the stiffness part of the equiation goes away.
As far as sound traveling, and the support of the sound, the lower frequencies support the higher frequencies. Orchastras are built around this concept, good speakers too. Because of the lower frequencies being amplified more, these older violins naturually would have better 'sound' because it's higher frequencies will be better supported.
The music snobs and collectors love this 'mystic' around these old instruments, but to many there really is none. What makes them unique, is most of the ancient and often uniquely unknown hardwoods found even but a few hundred years ago are going away, make it unlikely that we will ever have instruments as good.

Re:This has been known for years

[gstoddart]

It's called bias. Yes, they are fine instruments, no doubt, about the best there is, no doubt. But can you detect a Stradivarius without knowing it is one? And telling it apart from a Guarnerius or Amati? Or even a good quality modern instrument?

Thee and me, probably not.

According to this [sonoma.edu]:

A common question: In a blind test, could a nonmusician or "uneducated" listener tell the difference between a Stradivarius and some other violin? The answer is that it depends. If the other violin, whether old or modern, were an excellent one by a fine maker, the differences might not be readily apparent. But in a direct, side-by-side comparison of a great Stradivarius with a commercially produced instrument -- or even with a handcrafted violin that was merely very good -- the differences would be absolutely clear, even to the most inexperienced listener.

I think some people probably could tell.

Cheers

Re:Create some new ones ?

[e4g4]

It might - we'll have to wait until we can replicate a "new" Stradivarius and compare it to the old ones (of which there are still quite a few kicking around). However, as a string player I can tell you that generally, as an instrument ages (and if it is well taken care of), its sound improves. Seeing as every single (acoustic) violin out there is modeled after the Stradivarius - I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the same would be true for the genuine article.

Re:This has been known for years

[Slashidiot]

Actually, one of my uncles (the rich one) is a violin collector. He has several antique violines, most of them italian. He actually owns a Guarneri, which are regarded as the best violins, second only to the Stradivarius. It is a wonderful instrument, but the difference with other much less appreciated violins is quite small. It does have a "wider" sound, but you can only tell if you listen carefully, and repeatedly, comparing with another violin. I can hardly tell apart a 10.000$ violin from a 1.000.000$ violin.

When you get to a certain quality, you start getting diminishing returns, and there is really no difference from a certain point on.

It's like encoding music. You can easily tell a 32kbps file from a 128kbps file, but it's harder to tell a 160kbps from a 256kbps. And anything over that is just a waste of bits. A Stradivarius might sound as good as an uncompressed WAV file, but there are many violins that sound as good as a 320kbps mp3. (What a great analogy, better than cars).

Re:Harmonics

[thatskinnyguy]

Quartz would sound aweful. However, B.C. Rich and Ampeg made acrylic guitars before. I don't know if they still do. Anyway, they sounded OK I suppose. The biggest drawback was the weight. I played one once and my shoulder was sore after the first song.

Re:Harmonics

[flyneye]

Solid body guitars produce "string sound" as opposed to hollow body electrics that produce "string sound,acoustic sound and 'top sound'".Top sound is that barely perceptible pitch shimmer you get when the plucked string vibrates the top causing a slight vibrato at the bridge.
          This in mind,a quartz guitar(too heavy to be practical) would produce a desirable string sound.
This would also be affected by the choice to use either quartz,mahogany,maple,etc for the neck as the transmitted vibrations are EQed so to speak by everything that lies between nut,bridge and thensome else on the instrument affecting harmonic nodes.

Re:Harmonics

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is, they can also sound *too* bright and clean. Steinberger built guitars out of graphite but EMG had to make the pickups sound dirtier to compensate.

Glass guitar

[RudeIota]

It's not quartz, but I have a friend with a guitar that has a glass body. It's heavy and solid, but it sounds 'harsh'. It's easily one of the worst sounding guitars I've heard, so I'm pretty sure weight isn't the only consideration.

Stop pontificating...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actual blind tests have proven otherwise to your claims...

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2007/1970688.htm

Re:Harmonics

[budgenator]

There is quite a demand for old growth dunderheads ,logs to heavy to float all the way to the sawmill from the logging days. One of these logs pulled out of the mud in a river or lake bottom after a hundred years can fetch thousands or or tens of thousands of dollars at auction depending on condition and species.