Wood Density May Explain Stradivarius Secret 318
Whorhay writes "A Dutch doctor and a violin maker from Arkansas have compared five classical and eight modern violins in a computed tomography (CT) scanner. Apparently the 300-year-old violins are made of wood with a more consistent density than the modern violins. They aren't saying for sure that this is what gives the Stradivarius violins their unique sound, but it's the first scientific explanation I've heard for it that seems to have merit." Unfortunately science has yet to explain how how all three chords I know ROCK on my SG.
Re:This has been known for years (Score:4, Interesting)
So I suppose someone could carefully manage a tree farm to produce some new perfect instruments.
Alternative idea: varnish (Score:5, Interesting)
The varnish on a Stradivarius [sciencenews.org] is what biochemist Joseph Nagyvary thinks is relevant. Cheaper varnishes may be too rubbery and as a result damp high frequencies. He's built some violins based on his ideas, though apparently a good musician can still tell the difference between one of his and a Stradivarius.
One problem with the wood density idea is that not all Stradivarius violins have the sound for which they're famous.
density seems to be the issue (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a problem with woodwork. It is difficult to get dense wood. Only 20 years ago it was easy to get good dense wood that could be built and oiled so it would last a very long time. Now all I see is light junk wood.
Re:In past it was chemical treatments and soaked w (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This has been known for years (Score:2, Interesting)
The physics of violins (Score:5, Interesting)
There was a TV show some years back about a physicist who tried to figure out what makes violins sound good. He found a few interesting things.
High-frequency response depends on the shape of the bridge. All those curly-cues cut into it control the transfer function from the strings to the body.
Mid-range response depends on the shape of the f-holes in the body. In this range, the bridge is rigid. The strings push on the bridge, and the bridge rocks the portion of the top plate between the f-holes back and fourth so that it radiates sound.
Bass goes from the strings, through the bridge, down through the sound post to the back panel, and is radiated by the back panel. Stradivarius shaped the back panel of his violins asymmetrically, so that the center of percussion was right where the sound post pushes on the back panel. IIRC, getting the center of percussion under the sound post was a distinguishing characteristic of Stradivarius violins.
Re:Harmonics (Score:3, Interesting)
Not being a guitar player, I have to ask...
Is it the density, mass, or maybe the structure?
Would a quartz guitar play amazingly?
Re:Create some new ones ? (Score:2, Interesting)
However, along the same lines of wood settling, it is believed by some that brass instruments go through a similar process. Not only do great musicians play on good instruments, but their playing it well makes the instrument even better. Something having to do with the "good vibrations" changing the metal slightly.
In fact, some top end brass instrument makers give you the option of having your horn work hardened by hand with a hammer to achieve a similar effect.
Then there was the violinist.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Who alternately and randomly played a strad and a fake strad for an audience and for experts. Turned out that the well made violin was dubbed a strad equally often as the strad even by experts.
What really makes a strad sound good is the musician playing it.
How many entry level violin players play a strad?
There is no magic, there is just LOTS of practice.
Overlooked explanation (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Create some new ones ? (Score:5, Interesting)
Not necessarily.
I know this is anecdotal, but I've a violin that's my grandmother's, which was her mother's (I think). It's very old, and German, and is a pleasure to play.
I also have several new violins that have been modeled after the really good old ones (including one that's modeled after a Bolshoi instrument [wikipedia.org]). Now, the new ones sound fabulous, no doubt, but the old ones still have an ineffable quality to them that makes the music stand out.
For the longest time I thought this was psychological, but I've played both kinds of violins to friends and family with no music knowledge, and almost always, people say that the older violin just sounds richer. Even more interesting is the fact that the strings (both violin and bowstrings) are all quite new, so it most certainly is the body.
Secondly, it is also the collector's value - you have some excellent replicas of some of the world's most famous paintings, perhaps in better quality and in better resolution. However, that hardly diminishes the value of the original.
Do I enjoy playing my new violins? Hell yeah. In fact, I've some with fixed microphones inside which makes it easier for me to make recordings and the like (this is a problem because appropriate placing of mics inside a violin is hard, without affecting the harmonics, and there are some violins that take this into consideration).
And while some of my new violins can certainly take a beating, while I'm scared shitless of doing anything to my grandmother's violin. That does not mean that it diminishes the value of the old one - if anything, it makes it a delicate, valuable item.
Re:Harmonics (Score:4, Interesting)
Even with electric guitars weight and density are considered a good thing. You'll find people complaining how heavy their Les Paul Custom is yet still play it for the sustain the extra weight provides.
That sustain comes at the expense of having a very simple clean tone. They're great for distortion, though.
And Swamp Ash is a preferred material for Stratocasters and Telecasters because it is very hard while not being as heavy.
A swamp ash Stratocaster is my ideal guitar for playing clean, since it brings out the fundamental note and higher harmonics without so much midrange -- that's great for getting an ominous sound when you want it. I suspect it's the hardness that lets the higher frequencies reverberate so well.
You have to remember, though, that Fender sells many times more Stratocasters made of Alder than made of ash. Not everyone wants that sound.
Re:Overlooked explanation (Score:3, Interesting)
Why not Stradivarius was the best violin craftsmen? Ever.
Because there were several other people living in the same town at the same time who made comparable violins.
Re:This has been known for years (Score:3, Interesting)
It would have to be an indoor tree farm, as things like cool temperatures, sunlight, humidity would all have to be carefully controlled. If a little ice age can slow the growth of the trees down you would have to duplicate that, over a period of 30-50 years to grow the slow growth trees large enough for timber.
Wouldn't it be possible to find a natural climate that caused slower tree growth. I live in Colorado, and trees tend to grow slowly here, probably due to the dryness and possibly altitude. Would an ash or maple from Colorado produce a superior instrument?
Define the terms.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I have played fiddle for 10 years, mostly bluegrass and Irish music. I've also spent time in an orchestra as a clarinet player, as well as a smattering of other instruments. The world of bowed strings and the prices associated with Strad-grade instruments has always astonished me. I can't name another type of musical instrument people are willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for, and I think there are a couple of factors behind it:
1. Most classical violinists play in the company of others, i.e. in an orchestra, where 'one-upmanship' can play a big role. If your instrument isn't as expensive as your stand partner's, you might fear the perception that you value your craft less highly! In fact, I'm told some orchestras won't audition players unless their instrument cost a certain (quite high) dollar amount.
2. I can say as a violin player that the instruments are basically impossible to perform systematic A/B tests with. For example, I can't A/B two different brands of string on my instrument, because changing the strings takes at least 5-10 minutes, by which point my short-term aural memory is already gone. Furthermore, it's next to impossible to change strings without shifting bridge and tailpiece position, both of which affect tone as well. Need some more nails in the coffin? Rosin buildup on the strings and string age also affect the tone _more_ than different brands of strings do. It's a different picture than, for example, factory built electric guitars, where you could set up two identically built solidbody guitars with your A and B stringsets, and (at least within a first order) you could claim equivalence between your two string-testing platforms.
In the absence of the ability to perform systematic tests, it seems like string players go for a lot of "magic" - $90 sets of strings, rosin with gold flecks in it for "warmer, richer tone" - and a lot of other bullshit, including price-performance equivalence. Like Lotus owners, violinists are usually limited far more by their technique than their instrument (once you get into the 10-20K range), and yet there is still a push to buy the 100K instrument!
As for the Strad instruments: scientific inquiry into things like wood density, varnish, etc, seems pretty disingenuous if no one can reliably detect the qualities the instruments are supposed to have. If, as the earlier posters mention, Strads can't be reliably detected in double-blind conditions, it seems obvious that any investigation into their unique properties would be chasing one's own tail. Even if there is an amazing, one of a kind Little Ice Age, shipwreck-sunk virgin blood Stradivarius, none of those attributes are relevant if they don't impact the sound. And if "what makes Strads so great" isn't about the sound, then WTF is the point of the investigation? Dense wood really isn't great for its own sake.
Whew. rant over.
Find a music teacher. http://www.learningmusician.com/ [learningmusician.com]
Re:Overlooked explanation (Score:2, Interesting)
Another theory I heard was.... (Score:4, Interesting)
That it was the volcanic dust they used to finish rubbing the wood before varnishing, which stayed in the wood to leave a very hard layer under the varnish - it floated my boat.
Re:This has been known for years (Score:1, Interesting)
Ok, so what about all the other equally-old violins? There are many instruments from the 1700's, and not all of them sound like a Stradivari.
I guess they had better compare some Stradivari to some other violins of the same age, not new ones. Otherwise you can tell what age does to violins, not what Stradivari did.
People have tried things like this (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a woodworker and some of my friends have tried to make violins. They all looked good and sounded terrible. It's definitely a tough business.
Re:This has been known for years (Score:2, Interesting)
I personally know of a small growth of pine trees in Eastern Washington that have taken nearly 30 years to grow to a height of 15-20 feet. If these trees had gotten more than a few inches of water a year they'd probably 2 or 3 times that height.
Apparently pine trees are considered fast growing trees [arborday.org] and here's some info on what is considered, slow, medium and fast growing rates [arborday.org]
âoeThe designation slow means the plant grows 12â or less per year; medium refers to 13 to 24â of growth per year; and fast to 25â or greater.â
So yeah, those trees I know of should be about 60' high by now.
the density of good old wood has been known (Score:3, Interesting)
for a long, long time now. every real violinmaker has a chunk of heavy old curly maple that was inherited from somewhere, in case they need it to repair a fine old instrument. they tap the wood to determine the density by the sound, like testing for the best watermelon in the bin.
Re:Harmonics (Score:3, Interesting)
I would be surprised if, in his entire lifetime, Antonio Stradivari used much more than two trees. I say this because, as any violinist knows (and yes IAAV and violin-maker) most violins are made with a spruce belly and maple backs and sides.
Given that these members were and are quarter-sawn (i.e cut radially across the trunk), he would have got quite a few instruments out of each 14.5" (the usual total length of the back) section.
There is a rumour that the maple was sourced from ships' oars, but that has been pretty much debunked.
Re:This has been known for years (Score:2, Interesting)
Actually, yes you can, when the instruments are in the hands of a musician who is capable of bringing out the best in his/her instrument.
It is also true that equivalent instruments are made now with much the same properties, though the "feel" of the instrument is never the same as an old one, which may not be an identifiable characteristic to anyone except the violinist.
Getting back to the point, a Giuseppe Guarneri instrument has a distinctly sweet "rasp" [subjective impression - if anyone can come up with a better description, I'm happy with that] by comparison to most Strads. Most of the Amati instruments and all of the Stainers are also "sweeties", much less powerful than their later cousins (due to the much more promounced arch of the belly and back), with what might perhaps be described as a bell-like plangency to their tone.
Re: Nagyvary instruments (Score:1, Interesting)
I've played a Nagyvary viola, and I was considerably less than impressed. Although it had good volume, I think that was more attributable to its being a relatively large instrument, and it had a very unpleasant nasal, muted sound.
The man has some fascinating ideas about using centuries-submerged swamp wood, applying varnish with bugs and other impurities in it, and playing loud music at the instrument so the body's resonance speeds the development of micro-cracks in the varnish to simulate centuries of being played.
But at the end of the day, he's not (or at least wasn't at the time) producing instruments that sound that great.
Magic........ (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, a trained professional can pick a Strad' out of a crowd of violins just by the tonal qualities. The resonances & harmonics have a distinctive gestalt.
Dito.
No, there is a difference that you can clearly see in the waveforms between a good instrument and a great instrument.
God no. Ignoring the sense of pacing, emotion, and the hundreds of details a violinist can put into a piece, a cheap violin sounds just that - cheap. Even on a bad day, a mastercrafted violin has a sense of warmth & a clarity of tone that a cheap instrument can't match. It's like saying a trashcan lid is just as good as a Zildian cymbal.
That being said, there is a diminishing return & once you get into those instruments that are made by the masters of their craft, then the differences become minute. The difference between an instrument hand crafted by a master of the art & any mass produced ones will be detectable.
"The Subjectivity of Wine" (Score:5, Interesting)
Read the complete article here [scienceblogs.com].
clearbody (Score:3, Interesting)
There's a reissue of the Ampeg/Dan Armstrong Clearbody out now. The original ones were OK with a pickup that slid from neck to bridge and were really cheap. The bass was a bit better than the guitar, the guitar had a plain boring tone. The reissue is way to expensive.
Re:This has been known for years (Score:3, Interesting)
"But can you detect a Stradivarius without knowing it is one? And telling it apart from a Guarnerius or Amati? Or even a good quality modern instrument?"
Sure almost anyone would. Not to say you are not (partially) right, but not on this one. I never had the chance to listen to neither and Stradivarius nor a Guarneri but I had listened to a decent collection of violins of different qualities and ages and certainly the differences among them are conspicous and, in general, there will be a concordance among the audience about what ones sound better and "rounder" (and a clear difference between those that tend to prefer a more colourful sound and those that prefer "dark" instruments).
What I mean is that violins *do* sound different just as coke tastes different to pepsy. Maybe most people not used to coke drinks won't tell apart coke from pepsy but certainly they will tell appart the two brands if offered on a test. Since they both taste different, any trained people will pick apart Pepsy from Coke at the first slip. Please, pay attention that this has nothing to be with pepsy being better than coke or the other way around; they are just different.
So I think you might be right about Stradivarius not being the best over there, just the most famous, but you are wrong in that a trained ear won't be able to take apart Stradivarius from even a good quality XIX german violin or, at the very least, late XVII-early XVIII cremonensis violins from everything else.
Re:Harmonics (Score:3, Interesting)
Tie two pendulums of the same length to a single wood dowel. Mount it stably and start one of them swinging. Watch the other one.
Even knowing that, it does seem like it wouldn't make as much difference as it actually does.
Re:This has been known for years (Score:2, Interesting)