Nielsen Collects FL Tax Breaks, Then Outsources Jobs 572
theodp writes "The poop is hitting the fan over tax breaks given to ratings giant Nielsen Co., which pocketed millions in Florida jobs-creation tax concessions but has turned around and dismissed hundreds of local workers after inking a $1.2B outsourcing deal with Tata Consultancy Services of Mumbai. Lou Dobbs is on the case. Lou may go even more ballistic once he sees the Nielsen-Tata pact, which assures Nielsen that OT worries are a thing of the past ('there shall be no additional charge for overtime work'), allows Nielsen to have unsatisfactory Tata hires replaced within 4 weeks of starting with no charge for the original or re-performed work, gives Nielsen up to 6 man-weeks of free labor when a Tata worker is replaced, and allows Nielsen to make 'any TCS Resource' disappear with no more than 5 days notice if their presence 'is not in the best interests of Nielsen.' Nielsen execs have launched a PR counter-attack, pledging not to bully 85 year-old ladies in future layoffs. In a Letter to the Citizens, Nielsen CEO David L. Calhoun explained that Tata won a 'rigorous competition' to get the job, failing to mention that Tata was also tapped by Nielsen EVP Mitchell Habib in his CIO roles at both GE and Citigroup."
Hmmmm - interesting.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Has anyone done an audit of EVP Mitchell Habib's bank accounts and lifestyle????
It might be nothing, but then again, it might not....
My experience at Citigroup.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I was at Citigroup when Habib brought in Tata for a 2nd time. Initially, he brought them in for the credit card division. He was then promoted to CIO of North America and by then it was obvious to everyone that after what happened at GE and in our credit card division that there existed a quid pro quo arrangement between Habib and Tata. So there was no suprise when Tata was awarded the contract for all of North America, even though there was a 'competition' with at least 5 Indian outsourcing companies. I've got no idea if Habib thought that this move was really in the best interests of our company, I only know that he promptly left Citi for Nielsen right smack in the middle of all the resulting layoffs that he initiated. And anyone paying attention knew at the time that Tata and Nielsen would soon be working together, and every IT worker at Nielsen needed to get their resumes polished up in a big hurry.
It's not corporatism, its racism (Score:3, Interesting)
Read the story. One Indian guy goes from American company to American company, merrily f--- over Americans to benefit Indians back in India. Has nothing to do with corporatism and everything to do with nationalism.
Not what H1B Visas are for (Score:5, Interesting)
I was under the impression that H1B-type visas were for skilled workers of which there was a shortage in the US. It goes against the entire purpose of the program to say 'We can't find people to fill these positions domestically, we have to import them.', and when these are jobs that are only available because the Americans currently doing them are being fired. This sounds less like a job for the Oldsmar city council and more like a job for Congress, to address this complete abuse of the visa program. Sounds like everyone should call their Congressperson and ask them to inquire with the INS about just how and why these visas were granted and continue to be granted to Tata Consultancy.
Re:My experience at Citigroup.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Hey, want a laugh?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&output=googleabout&btnG=Search+our+site&q=habib%20tata%20lawsuit [google.com]
Only 2270 hits on Google for habib+tata+lawsuit
Re:My experience at Citigroup.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Lawsuits won't accomplish anything. All they'll do is make some lawyers rich.
We as American tech workers need to stand up against this. The first thing we need to do is to refuse to cooperate in any way with any Indian company. It may mean that we lose our jobs, but it's better to lose them for taking a stand than losing them to some half-assed outsourcing company.
Second, we need to actively talk with our managers about the risks of dealing with Indian outsourcing firms. The results are always huge disasters for everyone involved, except the Indians. In short, American tech workers lost their jobs, the American businesses get shitty software that never works, but the Indians get the money. That's not acceptable, and the only solution is to avoid dealing with them.
Third, if we come across any of the shit software produced by these Indian firms, it must go. And it must be known to the management of the businesses that the software is pure shit.
If we act now, we'll achieve true results. It won't be easy, but it's necessary.
In other words... (Score:1, Interesting)
It's time to say "Ta-ta" to Tata...
It's time to knock it off (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, call me protectionist, and queue all the rebuttals, but it's time to just knock this offshoring stuff off. I honestly think it should be made illegal at this point. Banned. For good.
We are gutting good jobs from our economy at a time when we truly can't afford it. We are watching CEOs and other greedy executives make off with literally millions of dollars by making these decisions that take food off the table for countless US families. The people who lose their jobs to crap like this then cannot buy goods and services in America. Guess what that does to the economy? But hey, those CEOs have their mansions and BMWs! They definitely have the mansions and BMWs!
My cell phone company uses an offshore support center. Recently, I spent 50 minutes trying to get two simple questions answered about my calling plan. The rep would "put me on hold while my issue was researched". We're talking REAL EASY questions, but they weren't addressed on the website (which was probably also offshored). This experience, by the way, has happened repeatedly with this provider's customer service. Note that my cell provider didn't lose anything - I'm locked into my plan, just like most other people who suffer from the cellphone cartels. They saved money by offshoring. But I lost 50 minutes of my life, because some bean counting boogerface decided to get himself a big bonus with his "cost saving offshoring" plan. I wish I could have spoken to someone in the US - someone who would then have money to buy stuff here, and who would have answered my question in perhaps only 10 minutes. I am a consultant who is paid by the hour. Should I bill my provider for the extra 40 minutes?
Some people think that offshoring will just raise the level of jobs we have here, and make more room for higher-level salaries. BULL! Where is the evidence? Sure, a select few get to play project manager or supervisor or offshore liaison, and the rest get to go home and wonder what to do with skills they have spent years honing. By the way, I know this might surprise some of you, but NOT EVERYONE wants to be a manager. Some people here would love to have those call center jobs (or those programming jobs, or whatever). Trust me, some people would really like to have them, especially now.
Darn it! Companies that made their fortunes on US ingenuity turn their backs on the US for a quick buck, and we continue to allow it to happen. It makes me sick and enough is enough. We are stupid, especially in the face of growing trade deficits, to send good jobs somewhere else. Wait, we peons are not stupid, it's the bigwig decision makers who AREN'T ACTUALLY HURT by the decisions. We should stop them. Congress should stop them. Which would be easy, if Congress wasn't attached to them at their wallet.
By the way, I have nothing against the folks in other nations to which we offshore this work. They are doing what I would be doing in their shoes - making their best play for these attractive jobs. If you walk up and hand someone an opportunity, you can't blame them for taking it. It's not their fault. It's OUR FAULT!
Not wanting to see our own economy gutted is not the same as being protectionist. This offshoring thing was a bad idea, ill-conceived and unethically promoted. Worse, it's been shamelessly allowed by our do-nothing Congress, and even condoned by brainwashed people who drink the "it'll free us up for more high-level jobs" kool-aid. If you run a business in the US, run it in the US. Employ people here. Between inexpensive overseas goods, offshoring of services, and oil, we seem absolutely hellbent to send every bit of value we can somewhere other than here. ENOUGH!!!
Admittedly, I need to relax a bit. My typing fingers hurt.
Re:People in India (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't have a problem with them taking whatever job than can get. I do have a problem with American companies screwing over American workers. If this keeps up, no one will be able to afford the products or services of these companies, so they're basically trying to put themselves out of business.
Re:Just Deserts (Score:3, Interesting)
"This is what happens when a apathetic populace lets fascism or corporatism slide."
Accurate but missing the reasons why. This is what happens when it takes two incomes, and 50-60+ hour work weeks to raise a family, add in long communtes, then on top of that add in all the distractions and whatnot and you get an overworked, overtired population with scarce little time for everything else.
If we want this not to happen we have to take people out of the market and pay them to do nothing but investigate and manage these issues, so that they can be reasonably informed instead of sheeps at the slaughter house against trained shady scientists and marketing people who manipulate them.
Treating these issues like the average person can do it in the free time is nonsense today in the increasing complexity and sophistication of propaganda sciences that take advantage of advancements in psychology, neurology, biology. Not to mention the other areas of technological expertise. It may have been ok 100 or even 60 years ago. But today it's not because of all the technology and the increasing sophistication of business using science unethically to manipulate the government, and the increasing overwork and distraction of todays society.
Most people simply do not have anywhere near enough time. To really get a grasp of todays complex issues basically means a full time commitment like a full time job for a few years, we should be using public money to 'hire' (or rather shield their wages when they talk 'time off for citizenship') random selections of citizens for a couple years and subsidize the lost wages. This way we can subsidize democracy, so they can take a few years off their job, talk to people, get informed so they can start being a good citizen. Since it really takes a long time to really grasp and read the volumes of stuff out there today.
Time is a finite resource, and the public doesn't have anywhere near enough today. Thinking the public can do it without the necessary years of time off to focus 100% on these issues shows a lack of perception in how society has changed and how complicated it has become.
Re:Just Deserts (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe you're upset that certain laborers can out-compete local labor; normally I thought the left was all into helping other people, but then I realized if 1) someone local is losing out 2) it's being helped through getting a job then it's no good. Outsourcing isn't evil, not unless you have a populistic "us vs. them" mentality; break free of those notions and realize it doesn't matter who gets a job, you're neither owed a job nor does one owe you a job. That Indian guy getting a job or that Chinese guy getting a job probably, y'know, needs the money--but of course, since it's a job, I'm sure you'll label it "exploitation" and wave it away with some sort of communist gobbledegook about the "bourgeoisie". Outsourcing is virtually no different from exporting a product. If that troubles you you can always just enjoy fresh produce and the beautiful ty-die t-shirts made at your local commune instead and not buy imported crap.
For the left to be so quick to talk about "Othering" people, it seems to be the modus operandi when it's outsourcing. Anything to make business look bad, though, right?
Americans are not fans of the free market, at least, not really, and are becoming less so, as nobody wants to be accountable for shopping at places which may become "monopolies" like Microsoft. For every Microsoft, Walmart, or Starbucks there are many, many customers buying their products and supporting any possible shady activity they do.
The left simply wants to control people, they want them to "behave" according to their ideas of what "behaving" is, to push an agenda of economic egalitarianism because of the "power disparity" or whatever terms they'll use because they've taken the idea of "equality" to an extreme where everyone is equally in chains.
You can believe what you want, but don't pretend what you're advocating is freedom. Freedom isn't always efficient, it's not always even pretty; freedom does not mean "allowing what I like and disallowing what I don't like"; and freedom is far from "making decisions for people or preventing them from making decisions I'd disagree with or find abhorrent".
Re:People in India (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Just Deserts (Score:4, Interesting)
We have labor shortages? There might be labour shortages on your side of the pond, but we certainly don't have any labor shortages over here.
"Low" unemployment rates be damned. I know a quite a few smart college-educated people who are making minimum wage. And they're the lucky ones.
Re:It's time to knock it off (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't ban it. Let the market work. Make it expensive, and it will stop. This is something the government should be doing: add taxes and tariffs to things that are harmful and cause problems for society; give tax breaks to things that are helpful and do good things for society. That was the reason they gave the tax breaks in this case, but maybe the government dropped the ball here by not getting a solid agreement in writing (I don't know, maybe they have one, and the poo will hit the fan soon, I didn't RTFA, because I'm not new here).
Unfortunately, the government doesn't step in this way as often as it should, or it interferes in the wrong ways, giving tax breaks to companies that aren't doing anything to benefit the public, because the CEO of the company is good friends with a member of Congress, or whatever. That sucks.
Is this a case of ... (Score:1, Interesting)
a classic bait-and-switch?
Re:Just Deserts (Score:4, Interesting)
Come live in Ohio. :-)
I'll concede the market is probably a bit tighter in other places.
With respect to your PHP candidates, either they're unemployed or are getting offers around $75/hr. I'm willing to be the former, but who knows. $75/hr might not get you very far if you're in California.
Re:crime or no crime? (Score:3, Interesting)
Thanks be to Almighty God! Yet another, um, person, who refuses to draw a distinction between, "I can get away with it", and "It's ethically insupportable."
I hope your daughter fucks off with a 300-pound, 40-year-old biker on her 18th birthday. Hey, it's legal, right?
What Job is Safe? (Score:4, Interesting)
The US invested mightily and fostered the genius it took to create it's amazing economy. India did not, they can do that now if they want. They will catch up eventually, but why on Earth would you help your competition? Maybe it's not about America, maybe it's about greed which, contrary to neo-con oversimplified-theory-so-the-senator-from-Nebraska-can-understand-it isn't always good.
I bet India has some very very bright people. Probably bright enough to be CIO or CEO of a major company. Probably bright enough to be a lobbyist. Oh right, CEO's are unique individuals with rare qualities that only their buddy CEO's at the club can recognize and set the compensation for.
So anyway, H1-B visas for lobbyists and CEO's. And tax this wanker's bonus back because lynching is apparently forbidden or something.
On the other hand Lou Dobbs scares me. I dunno, like a xenophobic populist or something.
Re:My experience at Citigroup.. (Score:2, Interesting)
If you read some US history, you will find many heroes who gave their lives in order to secure some kind of decent life for the fellow man. US workers have always been treated like cattle. Mainly becouse of a steady flow of new workers who took the place of the ones who tried to fight. Now the owners doesnt even have to use poor americans anymore, they send the jobs out of the country instead. If you guys doesnt get your act together and form some real unions, your society will go down the drain. Just look around and see who is in charge. Do you think they give a rats ass about your childrens future.
Re:It's time to knock it off (Score:2, Interesting)
Your speak of the Boston Tea Party intrigues me. Perhaps it needs to be repeated in a more modern version.
I think most people when the issues are explained to them would feel the same way.
Most people also think Bush is stupid. I agree with this, which is why I don't believed Bush lied about Iraq. Bush told us what he believed, Congress given the same information also believed it. Someone else is pulling the strings, Who knows, it could be internal or external.
We are in the head long in a never ending undeclared war. No one blessed with the backing of either political party is going to stop it. Congress wants telecom immunity just as "Bush" does for the illegal wiretaps - on both sides of the aisle. "First they came for this group of people, and I did nothing. Then they came for the next group, and I did nothing, etc. Then they came for me, but there was no one left to protect me." The telecoms were the first line of defense and they buckled, and they need to be punished for it thoroughly and unconditionally to the fullest extent of the law.
The old quote speaking of the holocaust and you mentioning the Boston Tea Party has given me an idea. The groups of people who's jobs are getting moved offshore are not protected by a union. Perhaps those are should step in before its too late. I propose those unions who protect the jobs of those who work at our sea ports go on strike. If that doesn't work, then the air ports -> no international flights out, no international flights in. Every thing domestic is a go. Next rail.
For God's sake, we are Americans. Why are we allowing our government and the corporations it has blessed with rights into fleecing us?
Re:My experience at Citigroup.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Karma be damned. Do you honestly think you are inherently superior to the Indian companies, just because you are American? I've worked with a few Indians, and they were just as good as some of the Americans I've worked with. Articles like this never cease to piss me off, because they never fail to paint the Indians as a group of imbeciles who can't code their way out of a paper bag. Your post really does not help.
We're talking about outsourcing companies that are screwing us out of our economy. Even if their consultants were IT gods, we're still talking about the destruction of our economy. For anyone who says "Businesses ain't charities, they're going to go where the money is," I call bullshit! Any corporation with a public charter is supposed to be granted such charter to be exercised in the best interests of the general public. That's the way charters used to be granted. Now it seems like everyone thinks being a corporation means that entity now has carte blanc to fuck and chuck their way through the entire workforce.
But back to the truth of the matter, the Indians are not gods. In fact, the tech companies are going through their own dot.com bubble with people hopping jobs every two months, frenzies of contracts signed and promises made that can never be delivered on, and the specs are handled so poorly it would be amazing if the Indians could even do their jobs halfway well. You'd pretty much get the same sob story regardless of the country things were outsourced to. Hell, you even see it in this country where skilled, expensive employees get replaced with unskilled labor. In that case, the incompetents are Americans who rightly should be flipping burgers but got put into a higher job bracket because they're still accepting burger-flipping wages.
Re:I wish they'd outsource the board (Score:4, Interesting)
It can only last for so long. Once the people in India/China realize they don't need their American overlords anymore, they will spin off their own companies to directly compete, take the talent with them, and once they grow large enough, they will have their own board of directors. I am certain this is already happening, but would love to hear about some examples.
Re:Hmmmm - interesting.. (Score:3, Interesting)
40 years is way too short of a time-line and the US was not alone in playing that particular game. It's funny how rising fuel costs and a weak dollar have played to America's advantage; it's now cheaper to produce here and export. With shipping costs up, they can't even shift to another low cost labor source.
As far as taking tax dollars then outsourcing, if they were dumb enough not to include a contractual obligation for jobs to remain in the US, there isn't a lot that can be done with it. Basically, market forces are stronger than governments.
In Philly a few years back, it was politically desirable to keep shipbuilding at the former navy yard, so they gave some ungodly incentives to a FOREIGN company to revamp one of the dry docks. We did get a nice shiny new shipyard (in a global market glutted with capacity) but they were only contractually obliged to actually produce something like 3 ships. Once that obligation was filled, the yard was sold to yet another foreign company. Amazingly, they are still building ships, but that's only due to a law forcing use of US-produced ships when shipping between US ports. The incentives paid will probably never be paid back in taxes. Strategically, it's good for the US and Pennsylvania to have a modern shipyard, but I would rather my tax dollars didn't pay to build it.
Re:Hmmmm - interesting.. (Score:1, Interesting)
I wonder why you were silent when all the American companies were doing this in the third world and didn't pay taxes there?
Re:Hmmmm - interesting.. (Score:4, Interesting)
"40 years is way too short of a time-line and the US was not alone in playing that particular game."
Yes, you are right. We have to get it back to Rockefeller to have this fair.
"that's only due to a law forcing use of US-produced ships when shipping between US ports"
There goes the "free market" illusion by the USA.
Re:Boy, that's some curious exploitation... (Score:3, Interesting)
"You have a very curious version of exploitation."
Let me expand upon his version - they're exploiting the cheaper labor and taking jobs away from those of us in this country THAT NEED THOSE JOBS and they're giving it to OTHER PEOPLE ACROSS THE PLANET INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN COUNTRYMEN.
That should nicely trash the rest of your post, logic be damned. Corporations need to be DESTROYED, as all they're doing is helping themselves and hurting the country. What's the term for an entity that causes harm to its own country, WILLINGLY?
TREASON. Punishable by death - which I expect NOTHING LESS.
Re:Hmmmm - interesting.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, if Nielson is chartered in Florida then the government could always pull the ultimate one-upmanship and apply the corporate death penalty. Most charters require that the company operate for the public good, if it can be determined that Nielson is no longer doing so then the state of Florida may be able to revoke the charter and have the company dissolved and the assets returned to the investors. I would LOVE to see this happen just once to one of these companies, it might make CxO's think long and hard about screwing over everyone else around them so they can make their millions in quarterly bonuses.
Re:Hmmmm - interesting.. (Score:3, Interesting)
And the problem is this.
The lawyer gets the cheap labor but we STILL pay full price.
If it was $1500 for a houses legal paperwork before, it's still $1500.
But the lawyer is using foreign labor at a cost of maybe $600 total to do 4 contracts, then just reviewing the 4 contracts and signing them.
Same for the companies.
I don't mind cheap foreign labor so much when those cost savings flow through to the consumer.
For example...
You are making $50k per year and spending $30k a year on products.
You have to take a pay cut to $45k a year because of foreign competition. (OW!)
But! You find you are getting even more total products than you used to get on your lower salary because the car that used to be $15k is $14k and the legal papers that were $1500 are $150.
Right now the executive class has a moat built around them-- they are keeping the savings as bonuses and compensation. I'm not getting it as a shareholder OR an employee. It's time for some serious 90% taxes on the executive classes again like we used to have pre WWII. And if they don't like it, well they can move to india or mexico or china and work from there and pay the local taxes, etc.