Nearly 50,000 IT Jobs Lost In Past Year 460
snydeq writes "Employment statistics from the US Department of Labor show what most IT people have already realized: IT jobs are getting harder to come by. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 13,000 jobs in the information industry were cut in July, bringing the total to 44,000 year over year. An additional 5,000 jobs were lost in telecom this past month. The statistics reinforce a recent survey of top CIOs who indicated that they will be reducing their IT staff over the coming year. According to a staffing research firm, some jobs have gone to outsourcers, while other jobs are simply going away, either due to cost-oriented automation efforts or due to increasing the remaining staff's workload."
Meanwhile... (Score:5, Insightful)
Meanwhile, CEOs continue to spout off about how there's a shortage of skilled IT people in the US. Gosh, I wonder why [slashdot.org]. If China is the "factory to the world," I guess that would make the US the Wal-Mart of the world. Give it a few years once we're all working as cashiers for Wal-Mart, and that will probably be literally true.
Of course, the rub of it all is that as long as companies are laying off people a few hundred here and a few hundred there, something that human resource departments have mastered, no one will really be that worried about it. "Whew, glad it wasn't MY job," we all say as a few of our friends and coworkers are being escorted out the door each month. It's death by a thousand cuts, and what companies are doing will result in this country's ultimate demise as a superpower.
Does this include help desk? (Score:5, Insightful)
well does it? Because most help desk isn't really IT, but in many places it is under the IT umbrella. I'm primarily talking about the 1st contact people.
The shortage myth (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Meanwhile... (Score:5, Insightful)
You do realize that there are two types of IT work done in the US: project and maintenance. Ongoing maintenance is easily outsourced and firms are not primed to continuously run IT project after IT project.
IT is basically landscaping but with computers instead of shrubbery. Maybe it's not seasonal but there's no rule saying EVERYONE has to do projects all the time or at the same time.
In fact, with money tightening, most orgs are content to limp through with what applications and systems they have until things turn better.
Meh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why don't you elect Bush for a third term? (Score:1, Insightful)
Hey, shithead, why don't you shove your political trolling up your ass and die of the infection?
Industry finally deals with the 'skills shortage' (Score:5, Insightful)
By firing a load of qualified IT professionals!
Of course, those laid off don't have the *right* skills, because they aren't 19 year olds with PhDs who were programming in ASP.NET in kindergarten before it was even created...
There IS a shortage (Score:5, Insightful)
Having said that, I suspect the same is true of gifted CEOs and business managers.
As for China, I don't see any difference there. Being cheap and accepting high scrap rates and the occasional scandal is not a long term strategy. The painful issue that we are not addressing is that we (including me, I am one of the guilty parties) are creating a world which is just too difficult and complex for most people to play an meaningful role.
Re:STRIKE! (Score:3, Insightful)
you do realize (Score:3, Insightful)
that it is not the CEO's fault that you or other people have the wrong skills.
Our productivity is higher than ever before, our industry is earning more than ever before, and still our standard of living is crazy good.
The real fact is, too many people would rather bitch and moan, stay in a job they hate, or just do nothing, instead of trying to learn a valuable skill set. I know, it costs money. Well duh, its an investment. Got a super cell plan? Gee, guess it was important than your education. I can go on and on. Cars are more important investments too many people than an education.
Quit blaming companies. Small business employs more people than those companies you read about laying off people.
It's your attitude that counts (Score:4, Insightful)
There is as usual the American sense of entitlement even within this group of so-called informed people who understand the global economy. They probably glossed over the employment contract they signed that says their employment is "at will" and they can be asked to leave at any time.
If you want the government to take care of you then you should move to some other country where the government "takes care of you".
Don't assume that some entity will guarantee you a job then you'll be all right. People who are above 65 or who are immigrants know that instinctively. It's the native-born Americans who, like the proverbial frog in heated water, don't.
Re:Meanwhile... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There IS a shortage (Score:1, Insightful)
The painful issue that we are not addressing is that we (including me, I am one of the guilty parties) are creating a world which is just too difficult and complex for most people to play an meaningful role.
This implies that, at some point in time, it wasn't extremely difficult and complex for people to play a meaningful role.
Re:Meanwhile... (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless the company or (in some cases) entire industry that you work for goes into the tanker. Then all bets are off.
When I worked as a senior programmer/analyst for a major airline and 9/11 hit, almost half of the IT department was axed during one day, and it was normally done by project or team -- whole branches of the org chart were removed seemingly w/o much regard for the individuals/tasks/skills present in the branch.
If it was pure development or something not seen as operationally critical, it was gone.
I know a number of 25+ year developers who were highly skilled and (in some cases) were *the* subject matter experts in their areas who lost their jobs during those layoffs.
It doesn't always happen that way, but I know from firsthand experience that it can. :-(
Re:IT is the goose that lays the golden eggs. (Score:4, Insightful)
Every one says that about their specialty
Advertising: Don't cut it, that's what brings the money in.
Support: Don't cut it, it's cheaper to keep a customer than get a new one
IT: Don't cut it, it improves productivity so you can cut elsewhere
R&D: Don't cut it or we won't be competitive tomorrow
HR: Don't cut it, now more than ever we need to attract and retain the best talent.
Re:Then learn new skill sets! (Score:5, Insightful)
IT/IS is a tool for business, not many businesses make IT critical to their business plan. If you're in IT/IS right now, get more proactive in participating in business discussions by suggesting how IT can add value to the goals of that business.
The cynic in me wants to know how you're supposed to get "more proactive" when the same morons who don't understand the difference between "the cpu and the hard drive" announce unilateral IT decisions made without consultation like "we need to all get Blackberries" when they ignore information about other key systems with problems.
The problem is seldom lack of desire to participate, but decision makers who have no understanding of IT (besides wanting "shiny") and who choose to not include or consult with IT. Yes, you would think economic selection would filter out these kinds of executives, but we also thought economic selection wouldn't pay guys like Bob Nardelli $210 million in severance after ruining growth and depressing share prices.
As an IT consultant, I generally get a seat at the table (or at least invited into the room partway into the discussions) because they pay dearly for me on an hourly basis and I was hired because someone had half an idea that IT was something to pay attention to. But even then, good IT decision making plays second fiddle to a whole host of other concerns that are seldom considered business critical (eg, shiny toys, inconveniences that would be experienced by favored employees, etc).
The dipshit factor in IT I think has less to do with the inherent lack of social skills, but in the lack of respect the positions have within the organization. If you think it's not a valuable position, you don't pay for it and your don't hire for it as long as the job gets done to some minimal, keep-the-organization-going-standard.
Something so-called free trade advocates overlook (Score:4, Insightful)
We have all heard the same so-called "free trade" arguments hundreds of times: off-shore IT workers are needed to make up for labor shortages, and that is how free trade works. Anybody who disputes that is called anti-capitalism, and therefore anti-American.
Thing is, in truly free market place, such sustained labor shortages can not possibly exist. In fact, the very idea does not even make sense. In a truly free market: if demand starts to exceed supply, then prices will go up, which will cause supply will go up with the prices, thereby leveling out the equation.
For example: if there were a shortage of PHP developers, then wages for PHP developers would go, thereby attracting more PHP developers. A long term shortage would be impossible.
If something drastic, sudden, and unexpected, were to happen, then there could be a short-term shortage. But, let me emphasize that such occurrences would be extremely rare, and very short-term. A flood of six year visas, year after year, would certainly not be needed.
Also, McCain's claim that Americans would not pick lettuce for $50 an hour is unbelivably stupid, and verifiable untrue - put an ad on craigslist if you don't believe me. Americans will do almost anything if you pay them enough, watch that "Dirty Jobs" series if you don't believe me.
H-1 visas... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Meanwhile... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sys Admins and networking folks probably get lumped in with "unskilled" until something breaks.
Re:So true. (Score:4, Insightful)
Meh, reading his rant it seems the entire purpose was racism, and relevance to the issue at hand was secondary.
Racism is just a Divide and Rule tactic anyway, keep the working class abitrarily divided and they won't see the guys who are really twisting the knife (who tend to be white and rich).
Anyone who falls for it is a fool who thinks he's could be part of the ruling class if not for those damn (insert-non-favored-race-here). Look, I hate to tell you this but you can't. You might be the right color, but you aren't from the right family, and that club is very exclusive.
However, go on being a puppet playing out the script your masters have written for you, don't try to assault their wealth and privilege (the first flows from the second).
Re:So true. (Score:5, Insightful)
For similar reasons as to why Fox News has a noteworthy market share.
Also, the level of hatred towards minority groups it is considered socially acceptable to display, increases proportionally with the need for a scapegoat - e.g. during times of social or economic upheaval.
Re:IT is the goose that lays the golden eggs. (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree. We've been trying to hire two more people for a couple months now. A mid-level database developer and a mid-level .net web developer. So far every phone interview has lasted about 10 minutes with completely clueless people. Their resume says they know databases then they can't explain anything beyond a simple select statement or explain some simple normalization techniques. /sigh
I'm now hoping we might be able to pull a couple qualified people I used to work with from their current jobs.
Re:So true. (Score:5, Insightful)
The sad bits of truth sprinkled throughout this rant are completely neutralized by your obvious racism and xenophobia. It's really a shame, you make some excellent points, but a) clearly blame the wrong people, and b) clearly hate and fear those people. None of this is the fault of the Indian tech support guy, or the illegal Mexican. They're just trying to do the best they can with very little. I've known plenty of Indians and Mexicans; their intelligence and work ethic vary across the same spectrum as any American's. These people just want the same thing you do, a chance at a living wage in comfortable circumstances, and many of them have far more challenges to over come in finding that goal than you ever will.
Feel free to believe that the government and corporations are shipping your jobs overseas or giving you substandard service. It's certain true in some cases. Don't blame a bunch of poor people in developing countries for your problems though.
Chickens += Roost (Score:2, Insightful)
Hey that 'illegal Mexican' comes from a country just south of the US that the US has been actively screwing for decades. Does it occur to you that the 'shining city on a hill' was brutally cruel to it's neighbors and smaller countries / peoples all over the world? For some shining examples of the the Monroe Doctrine investigate the history of the United Fruit Company.
It ain't the poor Mexicans that are stealing your children's future, it's a government and culture of corruption right here at home that has systematically looted the country since 1980. If it wasn't for the DLC I'd call them the Republican Party. Get used to biking to work and missing meals just like the Mexicans. Then check out the literacy rate of South Asian high schools as compared to the US and hope your kid can get a job working for 'idiot Indians'. An average high school student from middle class India is an honor student in the USA. Sad, but true.
Re:The detailed report shows different story... (Score:4, Insightful)
Those high value jobs you speak of generally require experience. Experienced gained in the lower tiers, which are the one's being outsourced.
How does one qualify for one of those jobs if one can not get the required experience?
Re:There IS a shortage (Score:3, Insightful)
The sort of managers that found companies like Google.
The interesting thing is that I rarely hear those guys bitching about a lack of skilled workers. Those who complain are usually second rate managers of second rate companies, or spokespersons of some employers' association (frequently with the goal of getting the politicians to approve more immigration of engineers).
Re:Then learn new skill sets! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Then learn new skill sets! (Score:3, Insightful)
Mod parent up. It takes two to tango, blaming the employees alone isn't going to get the problem solved. Employees DO need to keep their skills up to date, but it's pointless when employers are unable to appreciate those skills.
A vicious cycle (Score:3, Insightful)
Where do you get skilled workers? From a pool of experienced people with a good track record. How do they they get get experience and references? By taking entry level positions and working their way up. What is happening to entry level jobs? They are being axed and sent oversees or taken by H1B visa holders who cannot freely change jobs and move up the ladder.
Seriously, these companies are cannibalizing themselves. Tehy are destroying their own recruiting pool.
Re:you do realize (Score:4, Insightful)
What about those CEOs whose companies go out of their way to avoid hiring qualified candidates [youtube.com] so they can justify giving the job to someone else who will do it for half the cost? I'm not saying that all companies do this, but it's obvious these practices exist.
That being said I agree with you that investing in your skillset is always a good idea, but that only goes so far when companies decide to game the system.
Re:So true. (Score:1, Insightful)
The problem isn't the race of the people coming into the country. It's the fact that they do so illegally, cause problems and don't pay taxes.
The label here is a consequence of what they have done, not how they were born.
Re:There IS a shortage (Score:4, Insightful)
Amen, brother. I've found in my extensive IT experience that 90% of the people out there don't know how to perform the most simple of IT functions, or are too lazy to do their job. Meanwhile, those of us that are architects and senior engineers are designing and implementing systems that will keep the rest of those unqualified workers in jobs for the next several years performing basic maintenance.
If you want to be in demand, become an expert at architecture, whether it's software, systems, networks, or storage. Become an expert in one of these fields and you will be in demand.
Don't just be a low-level check-box clicker. Those people will never have job security. If it requires no skill to do it, it can be outsourced to someone who will do it for 1/10th your salary.
Re:Industry finally deals with the 'skills shortag (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, technically, outsourcing all those jobs is a solution to the "skills shortage". It is a short-sighted, self-defeating, and destructive one, just like the strategy of management and executives not giving raises to workers so they can stuff their own wallets is destroying the U.S. economy.
Re:Meanwhile... (Score:5, Insightful)
It can be much more cost effective to have some redundancy in the field (so you can send a tech if necessary from a central site) than to have techs on-site to fix problems as they arise. Also, if the central helpdesk is any good, they just need a set of hands on-site for most problems.
Back in the early 1900's most bigger companies had a Vice President of Electricity, much like we have CIO and CTO positions. Over time, companies found ways of taming the costs of this critical "high-tech" infrastructure. We're going through the same thing in IT right now.
I'm a sysadmin and I have no doubts that IT is going to see some real workforce reductions. We're expensive and don't bring in money for the company. Yes, we provide necessary infrastructure support so the company *can* make money, but the companies that succeed will be those that find ways to control those back-end costs.
Re:The detailed report shows different story... (Score:3, Insightful)
You have to take both sides of the equation into account - both demand and supply. The bls report only accounts for demand.
Guest workers are flooding into the USA and replacing US IT workers by the tens of thousands. And the situation will get much worse in the near future.
There have been several "backdoor" efforts to drastically increase the number of guest workers in the USA. Such as the WTO Doha talks, which fortunately collapsed, for now. Also the new OPT visa.
More importantly, both presidential candidates strongly favor increasing the numbers in the USA. Bill Gates is pushing for unlimited guest workers. IMO: the reasons that we do not have unlimited guest workers already is:
1) record unemployment levels
2) election in November
Once the election is over, I fully expect a drastic increase in the number of guest worker visas allowed.
Re:So true. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not an argument, just an observation. Besides, he wasn't talking about "illegals" if you read carefully. Not in the part that was relevant to the discussion at hand, anyway, which was referring to Indians who were working in India for American corporations. Not to Indian border jumpers who came here to steal American IT jobs. I haven't heard of any of those. I have heard of H1-B Visa's which are lobbied for by scary Mexicans like Bill Gates, of course every single person who has one of those is a legal immigrant.
Of course, the majority of his post was an attempt at a thread hijack to get people frothing at Mexicans, so you have that part right. Of course, I could go into a long off topic discussion about mal-investment in the housing industry and how greediness by rich, white developers causes them to hire unlicensed contractors rather than those who have the proper licenses and do quality work.... but that wouldn't really have much to do with IT, now would it.
Re:you do realize (Score:5, Insightful)
that it is not the CEO's fault that you or other people have the wrong skills.
In many cases what you're saying is incorrect. How about applying the same logic to companies as you're applying to individuals. Yes, many people can do more to improve their marketability, but large companies can do a heck of a lot more to improve the quality of their workforce rather than offering sub-market wages for jobs and complaining about a shortage of "qualified workers".
Set aside the issue of compensation and focus on skills. It's in a company's best interest to ensure that once employees are on board, that they have the skills and tools available to be as productive as possible. Got a bunch of C programmers on your payroll and want to get into the Java applications business? Teach them Java! If they're proficient at C, they're smart enough to learn Java and become eventually become proficient. It's a lot cheaper to bring in someone to teach a Java course and buy reference material than it is to embark on a search for new employees, especially when sales opportunities are lost during the recruitment effort. To use your turn of phrase: "I know, it costs money. Well duh, its an investment." Instead many companies in this situation turn potentially valuable talent away, even when ambitious employees make their own efforts to improve their skill set. Or worse yet, go to Washington and asked for the rules to be changed.
As far as toys like your "super cell plan" are concerned, there's plenty of fat in the in the corporate world as well. Use of corporate jets for use by executives' families' vacations? Mahogany furniture in thousand-square foot personal offices? A company can pay for a course for dozens of employees to learn a new programming language or technology for what it pays in fuel costs alone for many of their CxO's vacations. Not to mention outrageous pay, perks, and severance packages many CxO's get, regardless of their performance.
I don't have a problem with innovative founders and executives making big money. Many CEO's have brought many millions, and in some cases billions of dollars to their companies and shareholders. I don't take offense I hear about a CEO making $50 million a year that's turned a small business into a Fortune 500 company or turned a large company on the brink of bankruptcy into a profitable concern. I do get PO'd, however, when poor performance is rewarded immensely at the expense of shareholders and employees. Like, the CEO of Home Depot taking home $200 million for having HD's butt handed to him by Lowe's Corp. Or Angelo Mozillo who focused much more in liquidating his 9-figure stake of Countrywide stock in 2006-07 rather than on his company's lending standards that eventually crippled the company. In these cases and many others, the CEO's decisions hurt the company. A CEO of an IT company can very easily say, "we're falling behind because our employes lack skills X, Y, and Z. Let's work on training them and improving our bottom line." When a CEO says "Sorry for the larger-than-expected loss this quarter! There's a skill shortage on the market and there's nothing we can do about it," then he or she IS to blame.
Yes, many people can do more to improve their career, but many companies can do a lot more than bitch and moan about it. Especially considering the assymmetry of options that corporations have that people don't have. When a company offshores an operation to Country X to take advantage of lower labor costs there, do you have the option of moving to Country X and working for that company or in that field? In most cases, the answer is no.
The blame game works both ways, and I'm tired of hearing Corporate America saying that the only answer is "foreign labor," rather than in making private investments and supporting public investments (i.e. improved education) that would allow them to sustainably compete.
Re:So true. (Score:3, Insightful)
That's really part of the whole problem with illegal immigration debate. There are important issues that have nothing to do with race, but some people gravitate towards arguments that have a racial component. This detracts attention from the core issues.
So I ask myself if I would have the same problem if it were our neighbors to the north jumping the border, instead of our neighbors to the south. Yes, yes I would. You don't have to be a racist asshole in order to have a problem with illegal immigration.
Even white, Caucasian, legal immigrants had to put up with bigoted assholes for a generation or two, like the Irish and Italians. It took the Chinese a hell of a lot longer, and one wonders if the American white and black cultures will ever fully mesh.
And these are all "legal" immigrants, who were or became US citizens. How much more difficult will the cultural assimilation of central Americans be when they don't even have legal status in the US? How much longer will it take, or is it even possible?
Anyway, this isn't the forum for a long and drawn-out debate. I'm simply pointing out that there are issues that go way beyond race and search for a scapegoat.
Re:So true. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not a liberal, I'm some form of radical.
So your appeals to liberal wimpism won't work on me, I'm not a Nancy Pelosi fan.
The reason why Bush's appeals to terrorism work is because terrorism is a real problem. His solutions to it are garbage, but the threat is real. So is racism.
I know racism been defined as an unword by the PC-right, but that's not going to stop me from identifying it when I see it. If you don't see the obvious racism in the GP post, then you are also a racist, and I don't expect to have a meaningful conversation with you.
Shortage (Score:3, Insightful)
We need to encourage more women to go into IT, so that they can:
1) Lose their jobs promptly
2) Have difficulty finding jobs in IT
3) Increase the supply of IT jobs and thus lower IT wages
This must be a good thing right?
After all every few months there is some mass media prattle about encouraging women in IT.
Obviously they'd rather women not go into pharmacy, law, dentistry, nursing and other jobs which are a bit harder to send overseas.
Maybe a career in IT is good for women in Mumbai, but if the US women aren't interested (and sure looks like they aren't), I think it is rather stupid or even _evil_ to encourage them to go into IT.
Re:Yes, the jobs that can be outsourced--are (Score:3, Insightful)
Many jobs that can not be outsourced are being filled by the flood of guest workers coming into the USA every year. And the situation is sure to get much worse. Bill Gates is pushing for an unlimited number of H-1B guest workers, and both presidential candidates strongly favor an increase in guest worker visas. There are many scams going on right now to bring in more guest workers though the backdoor, such as the OPT visa, and WTO Doha talks.
Lack of leadership (Score:5, Insightful)
>>IT is basically landscaping but with computers instead of shrubbery.
Wait a second, there's an enormous difference. Landscaping can't make other employees tens or hundreds of times more efficient, give one company a competitive advantage over others in the industry, fulfill oversight requirements, or create business opportunities (including new products and new markets). However, a bit of innovation in IT can certainly do all of the above. IT can have a multiplying effect, amplifying the work of the entire organization.
Actually, let me rephrase that a bit. IT, **DONE PROPERLY** can achieve those things. The problem is there is a lot of mediocre leadership in large corporations where the Chief MucketyMuck has the point-of-view that IT is simply a chore of business, like having a janitorial service, or landscaping. And guess what? This remarkable lack of vision is self-fulfilling: they treat IT as if it's a chore, defund it, crush innovation and morale and offshore at every opportunity, then act REALLY SURPRISED when there's no innovation and the competition runs right past them in the marketplace.
The problem is not IT, it's lack of vision and leadership from the highest levels.
Re:Achilles' heel of IT industry (Score:3, Insightful)
The funny thing is, when employers hire guest workers, they seem to use a completely different standard. Most guest workers are here right of college, and they fill entry level positions.
I have seen it many times: a company wants to hire a sysadmin, and they have an list of experience requirements a mile long. But, the same company is over-joyed to give the job to a guest worker with zero experience.
Re:The shortage myth (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually there is a shortage of TALENTED IT people.
Granted this is largely exacerbated by companies unwilling to pay what TALENTED IT people want to make.
I deal with idiot developers ever day who know next to nothing but who have just enough knowledge to get a few rows out of a database and display them on the screen. Maybe 1 in 30 of the guys I deal with truly know their stuff.
The problem is that the company wants to pay average market value for a role...unfortunately the market value gets you the average level of competency which in IT (and probably most other industries) is crap because of the large number of developer/architect/sysops who are crap. The real shortage is for TALENTED IT. Additionally the even scarcer creature, TALENTED IT workers at average prices, are what they really want.
Mod Parent Up! (Score:4, Insightful)
The language may be rough, but the points are insightful and valid.
Illegal immigrants depress wages for legal immigrants and citizens alike, and do contribute to crime. He linked to one famous case, but there are MANY famous cases of serial murderers and rapists who were known criminals in Mexico but jumped the border to the US to find a new playing field. And then there's the cross-border drug violence.
As for the Indians, I've also yet to have a good experience with Indians and any call center line - be it tech support, banking, warranty, or anything else. And I do feel especially cheated by companies who advertise "award-winning service" (I'm looking at you Dell) and then shift me off to some Indian who hasn't got the first clue on anything when my problem isn't on his "easy fix" script. If it was the accent barrier that'd be one thing, but there's definitely a competence barrier with regard to Indian call-center employees that I don't get when I get a call center in Idaho where they're hiring the Mormons.
"Free Trade" isn't free as long as the playing field with regard to wages, environmental, and worker safety concerns aren't level. Other posters in this discussion, including parent, are right - you "pay" for the lower wages of the "globalist free trade" setups in lost jobs, and then you pay again in the damage countries like India and China are doing to the environment (you think LA or Houston has bad smog? They're using gas masks just to bike around in Beijing and Bangladesh).
Re:There IS a shortage (Score:4, Insightful)
How does somebody become such an expert, if he/she can not get an entry level jobs? In IT experience trumps everything, if you can get that experience, then how do you become such a high-level expert?
Re:Meanwhile... (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, this may not be a bad thing, as other developing nations get a chance to play with some technologies and realize they need better education systems. They may develop new technologies, they may develop a thriving business capitol. In other words, job aren't going away permanently, they're just learning a new language. It's up to the individual if they want to acquire/keep a job in a particular field as large layoffs and outsourcing is becoming an inconvenient fact for some of us.
Re:Actually (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:So true. (Score:5, Insightful)
I know racism been defined as an unword by the PC-right, but that's not going to stop me from identifying it when I see it. If you don't see the obvious racism in the GP post, then you are also a racist, and I don't expect to have a meaningful conversation with you.
We live in a wonderful world when we have to resort to calling "irritation directed at an ethnic group" racism. I remember when "racist" was a much stronger word.
I don't particularly agree with his post - it doesn't help that I have a number of friends who would be deported if the government noticed them - but I can't find any factual error with anything he said, because I've seen it first-hand.
I'm inclined to want this country to stay a "beacon of liberty". I don't want to view immigrants as a threat to my job and way of life - I view them as raw material, much like my own (Irish) immigrant ancestors who went through the exact same things.
However, simply labeling someone racist isn't an argument. For that matter, I don't believe he is a "racist" - that's abusing a buzzword, and betrays it's full meaning. He would be better labeled as a xenophobe - it's not the hispanic race or the indian race he's railing against, it's the fact that they are from another country, another culture. That's not racism. Saying he is as bad as a true racist is no different from saying a racist is no worse than a radical isolationist.
Of course, he may well be an actual racist - he was a bit vehement. The post itself, though, wasn't racist. That's just a cheap way of discarding what he said. Here's a better response.
* Where did your folks come from? How did they get to this country (as you can bet it wasn't the Mayflower)? How did they make a living?
The answer most people will give is the best way to deal with immigrant fears - since the vast majority of us are ourselves of immigrant origin.
Let them come, like they always have. The culture of the US, for better or for worse, is immigrant to it's core - and ALWAYS has been.
Re:IT workers are stupid (Score:3, Insightful)
I tend to agree. But you must remember most don't understand what is happening. Even here on slashdot most IT workers are unaware of the real situation.
The MNCs have essentially limitless resources to flood the pop-media with bogus reports of how IT is "recession proof" and how there is a sever shortage of IT workers, and so on.
Other groups, like Doctors, are protected by the powerful AMA. But, IT workers will never have a powerful advocacy agency, because most IT workers are unaware of the present situation,
Re:contrarian anedotes (Score:3, Insightful)
Where IT work in the USA is heading? (Score:3, Insightful)
FWIW: I have worked in IT for 28 years. I have worked for several major US corporations, and in several different specializations. This is where I see IT heading:
In the near future, IT will be an outsourced serviced, like janitorial work. The outsource companies will hire both off-shore workers, and on-site workers. The on-site workers will mainly be guest workers from the same country as the off-shore workers. The lower level managers will also come from the same country, and the outsource companies themselves will often come from the same country. This will create a homogeneous, and insulated environment within IT. Everybody within IT, off-shore or on-site, will speak the same language, and come from the same culture. The IT workers will be moved around so they can get experience in the USA as guest workers, then they will be sent back off-shore to work for lower wages.
The reason it will happen like this is because it is significantly cheaper for the employers.
If you happen to be a US IT worker, be prepared to train your replacement. Also be prepared to listen to a lot of slogans like: "US and Indian workers proudly working together to achieve a common goal" before you get the boot.
Of course, there will be some exceptions, like jobs that require a security clearance. But, for the most part, the demand for US IT workers in nearly zero.
Re:So true. (Score:2, Insightful)
As a European it may not be stereotypical of me to say this, but I believe that in the grand scheme of things, the Americans have been very beneficial to the globe.
Re:Meanwhile... (Score:2, Insightful)
In free market place, a sustained labor shortages can not possibly exist. In fact, the very idea does not even make sense. In a truly free market: if demand starts to exceed supply, then prices will go up, which will cause supply will go up with the prices, thereby leveling out the equation.
For example: if there were a shortage of Perl developers, then wages for Perl developers would go up, thereby attracting more Perl developers. A long term shortage would be impossible.
SPOT-ON!!! But what's the problem here? THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY MORE. They want the labor they need at a price THEY dictate, NOT the free market. That's why the H1B visa exists.