Laboring Longer a Growing Trend For Americans 603
AxSpark writes "More and more Americans have the tendency to work after retirement and this number is growing day by day. Last year this number was 6 million people of 65 and over working. The reason for that is quite evident: pensions are not enough for sufficient living."
Most pensions and retirement were based on (Score:4, Informative)
Italians have spent pensions funds already (Score:5, Informative)
At retirement time, in Italy, 90% of people live on state pension. Let me tell you what happens.
State pension works by having current workers pay pension of retired people. In the golden years (70,80,90) we had people working and an apparent "extra" money into the pension "funds". Politicians thought to use the extra money to send the retiring workers early to pension.
Not only, but it was "normal" to go to pension with 90% of the last monthly income
The problem is that workforce is now declining, taxes are increasing and we currently pay pension to people that are just lucky to have retired early with a hefty pension (apparently nobody is willing to know how much a worker has PAID into the pension scheme and refund just that, plus interest).
I know I will have to work as long as I can, I am just upset that jurnalists and politicians brush this issue under the carpet leaving for when it will be too late
We do have private pension scheme but they are a money drain (basically another way to give luxury cars to some fund manager) they give no guarantee on the capital (as far as I know) and after the Parmalat scandal [wikipedia.org] there is even less trust on any private fund manager institution (Parmalat is not a fund manager, but if you "invested" on their bonds you have lost the money)
Re:Um, or... (Score:5, Informative)
my parents work to pay for health insurance.. their house and cars are all paid for - they have no debt - they have a savings.. but having to pay over 1k a month for insurance and still having 8 years till medicade kicks in .. yea they work just to have health insruance
Uhhh, what the hell are you talking about? (Score:5, Informative)
The boomers had plenty of kids. My parents were boomers, and I've found there is no lack of people around my age. The population growth in the United States is still positive, in case you haven't noticed. No, there isn't a perfect distribution among age groups but where do you get this idea that baby boomers didn't have any children? Do you see a massive gap in our population? I sure don't.
Re:Um, or... (Score:3, Informative)
The other thing is that in the US pensions are employer-run (or farmed out), not government systems. Not only do we know that Social Security will be nearly impossible for us to collect, but employer pensions are going out the door as well, in favor of a 401k or nothing at all. The message is to start investing in your 401k as soon as you have the option, and to keep rolling that money over into other retirement funds when you change jobs.
Additionally, health care only adds so much to our life spans. Average ages are getting older more because people are choosing not to have children, or have fewer children than in the post-WWII era. My father was one of eight kids, and my wife's father was one of fifteen.
Re:Um, or... (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, my grandmother was in that situation until relatively recently. She kept working until she was about 75 and ill health forced her to stop working - note, not "retire".
The reason for this? She is a lazy bitch who never worked a real job in her life and relied on whatever man she was with to provide for her. Her first husband (my grandfather) left her. Her second was a great old guy who finally died of Parkinson's and left her a wad of cash. the third guy was a bum and a hustler and took that money when he ran to Mexico - literally.
She never really saved any money, never invested herself in a job with future, and never planned. She doesn't have a pension because she never had a career. Social Security is keeping her afloat, and the fact that she scammed her way into a religiously affiliated care facility. And when that runs out, my Dad will take care of her, because as neglectful as she was, she is still family.
Yes, there are plenty of people who had bad luck, and perhaps don't "deserve" what they are dealing with in their old age. But that does not negate the fact that there are also those who squandered their good luck, and are now asking others to pay the price.
Re:Um, or... (Score:5, Informative)
IIRC in Europe its a pension whether it comes from a private employer or the govt.
Private pensions aren't actually that good an idea. Lot of industries (steel, auto, airline) that gave pensions to employees are currently struggling under massive pension debt because of technological advances that have substantially reduced the workforces in those companies...Pretty much the same thing that's going to happen to the US in a decade or so.
It'd be better to have a government-run pension plan that everyone pays into (than a private system) to help the system itself adapt to the changing workforce.
Re:Investments! (Score:3, Informative)
Don't forget medicine that other people pay for, and then send to your country where you get it for free.
PS. Of course, propping up third world economies is in the rich countries' interests. Just ask Marx.
PPS. To the GGGGGP, incorrect use of 'who' is almost unnoticable. In correct use of 'whom' is both stupid, pretentious and glaring.
Re:Um, or... (Score:3, Informative)
Or perhaps the company that they put their OWN MONEY into raided the retirement fund and there's nothing left.... Or it went belly up. Or it managed to pawn the retirement fund off on the taxpayers. Or the stock market crashed.
Retirement should not be a crapshoot. It should be managed by an entity with the resources and accountability to actually pay what it promises.
I'm looking at SS, Military retirement, city retirement, and personal 401(K), IRA, etc. for retirement - and all of that still doesn't add up to the below-market wage I make today.
It's pretty hard these days to 'save up' for retirement. Not because people are living frivolously, but because wages have essentially been flat for the last 20 years in the broad mid-career band, while everything else has been going up, including the number of hours worked.
Yes, a lot of people are living beyond their means. But even responsible people are having a hard time making ends meet after retirement.
Heck, the contribution cap for an IRA hasn't changed in 20 years...
What's a "Pension"? (Score:4, Informative)
You insensitive clod!
I don't know about your field, but nobody *I* know gets offered a pension. I think that perk is mostly long gone, except for government workers.
401k/457/etc... start early, be serious, be consistent...
Re:Investments! (Score:3, Informative)
The 14% he was talking about was SS. Nowhere did he say that he wanted to be exempt from all taxes. If the government is using SS for fixing roads and delivering electricity then the the post that you responded to has his point strengthened. Basically the government has no clue how to handle money.
Re:Um, or... (Score:5, Informative)
You don't put all your eggs in one basket and you never count your chickens before they hatch. One in the hand is worth two in the bush. Etc. You diversify your investments. This in investment 101.
Retirement should not be a crapshoot. It should be managed by an entity with the resources and accountability to actually pay what it promises.
Find an investor you trust. For me, I work with my dad (an insurance agent who has a finance background) and we make a financial plan. I don't want the government managing my future. I believe I can do better, I know I can do better - my Roth has had positive returns this year.
Heck, the contribution cap for an IRA hasn't changed in 20 years...
That's why you don't put all of your money in an IRA
It's pretty hard these days to 'save up' for retirement. Not because people are living frivolously, but because wages have essentially been flat for the last 20 years in the broad mid-career band, while everything else has been going up, including the number of hours worked.
I don't get a pension. I don't factor social security or any other government program into my retirement plan - I assume they will not be there for me. No tricks about it, I put over 20% of what I earn into interest-bearing accounts. Spread the wealth. 401(k), Roth IRA, a little in a money market. If you are filling all those buckets then move to "hard" investments like land, buildings and businesses. There are always mutual funds, index funds and stocks too. Yeah, you live a little below your means, you live in a little smaller house than your coworkers. So what?
You have to start investing when you are young so that the money can grow with time. Don't wait. I'm 26 and have been saving for retirement since I was 23 and graduated from college. Now sum up 20% of my income power by 30 years or so, in interest-bearing accounts, minus inflation and it's enough to retire off of around 55-60 if you are determined and have your debts paid down.
Re:Investments! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Um, or... (Score:5, Informative)
then there is this little thing called math......
say you work from the age of 20 until 65.
say you invest $6k / year during those working years.
say you get a measly 5% return on your investment and you have an investment that calculates it's interest once per month.
do the math.
that's $1,017,440.39 at the end of the run.
not very difficult to imagine.
yes the initial years of $6k year might be tough, but then again, so is not having any money at the age of 65
Don't like those numbers?
use $4k/year and work till 70.
you end up with $893,257.12
it's not rocket science.
it's compound interest.
and if you invest it wisely, you don't even have a tax load on the earned interest and principle.
Re:If only... (Score:3, Informative)
When someone (probably with enough cash) says this they get +5 insightful inmediately.
Now, if someone with no car said "if only people didn't expect the goverment to build roads" he would get -1 crazy.
You know, maybe if I didn't have to pay for the damn infrastructures so lazy people can drive to work I could save more money for my retirement?
Re:Um, or... (Score:1, Informative)
say you get a measly 5% return on your investment...
Please tell us where we can get that (assured) measly return these days without risk.
you end up with $893,257.12
Minus inflation...maybe $200k. Better than nothing but don't think you'll be living large.
Re:Um, or... (Score:3, Informative)
"So what you're saying is that it is irresponsible to enjoy life and that we should all live as misers on the chance that we might live to 70 and hope that by that time we aren't senile/disabled/blind/whatever and able to enjoy the money you saved by not living?"
Miser my happy ass!
It is quite practical to live well, spend carefully, have lots of toys, and enjoy life. I bought houses below what I could afford, because the functional different between a modest house and a luxurious house isn't much. My modest houses are paid for, and since I bothered to learn how to build/rebuild/repair nearly everything I own I can enjoy the freedom that brings too. I bought used vehicles, because letting the other shmuck eat the depreciation makes sense. I'm a mechanic so my operations and maintenance cost isn't squat. Every tool I bought made me money, and I keep the tools as opposed to paying some uncaring wage slave to half-arse the job. If I want to change something in my "owned environment" I do it.
There are all sorts of fun coping skills to learn that empower you and make your life easier, and they don't involve going up to your eyeballs in debt. It's not about saving money just to spend when you have one foot in the grave, it's about thinking and planning ahead so you can enjoy the whole ride with a reasonable degree of comfort and fun.
Re:Um, or... (Score:5, Informative)
Would you want to pay $10 for a gallon of milk?
Your milk is produced domestically. Milk is collected from farmers in big trucks, where it gets boxed or bottled by domestic workers. My milk costs less than $1/L.
[...]$50,0000[sic] for that basic car[...]
Domestic cars are currently quite inline with foreign. Granted, many of the parts still come from overseas. The real reason foreign cars do so well is because they are reliable (domestic is working on this).
[...]unions were needed back in the 1920s and 1930s. But they have out lived their usefulness.
I would argue that things are moving back towards the way they were in the 20s and 30s. We have large companies (walmart for example) that pay peanuts, and rake in huge profits. Could they afford to pay thier employees more? What about provide health insurance? It seems to me that there is an unequal distribution of wealth. Unions are not the sole answer, but a start in the right direction. Also, the Unions aren't bringing down the company, it's the pension plans that the companies agreed to pay out.
[...]Unions[...]almost always cost more to the company forcing it to either raise prices or look else where to cut costs.
Agreed. Unions increase labor costs. What does that mean? It means that Joe trucker makes and extra 3/hr and gets a pension and possibly minor health care. It means that apples cost $.85 vs $.75, but the trucker has a better chance to support his family. The trucker also has more money to spend, thus investing in the local economy. Moving jobs outside the country also moves all the money outside as well. Instead of paying 1000 workers $100/day they pay 2000 workers $2/day and one big wig a $25,000,000 bonus, which will get deposited in an offshore account and never get taxed.
,The loopholes are huge. Look at GM's $17 million a year just on Viagra
One day you will need Viagra. These people are old, give them their pleasures. If you want to cut out loopholes, how about start with the tax system. It seems that the more money you make, the more exemptions are available to you. IMHO, off shore bank accounts that are used for tax evasion are one of the biggest prolems right now. These criminals are stealing from the less fortunate (you and me) by not paying their fair share of taxes and rely on the average citizen to make up their shortcomings.
The world is (and always has been) ruled by the elite, for the elite. I would like to have it run by the elite(i'm a realist), for the people.
Re:Um, or... (Score:4, Informative)
Actually no.
See that widget will languish in a warehouse now, because no one wants to pay 10 times as much as a similar widget from another country. The company that made it won't get any orders for their over priced widget, and they'll go out of business.
That benefits local workers how exactly? You can't just say, "Local production always produces local benefits." It doesn't. In fact, what you're talking about isn't trade at all, it's a type of economic isolationism, which generally results in inflation, overpriced goods, and poverty.
This is the most basic economics.
Re:Um, or... (Score:2, Informative)
say you get a measly 5% return on your investment and you have an investment that calculates it's interest once per month.
do the math.
So let's see: 5% nominal interest, annually ... 5.6% annual inflation [bls.gov] ...
Well sir, "the math" says your real interest rate is -0.6%. Good luck hitting your $1 million goal.
Re:Um, or... (Score:3, Informative)
You misunderstand social security. Don't think of it as saving for your future- it isn't. It's a wage paid to the current elderly, to afford basic medical and life expenses. We're taking care of the people who need it now. In 30,40 years when you're that old, the people then will do the same for you with their money. It's not a savings plan, its a minimum salary for the elderly.
And like it says in the name- it's insurance. Its not meant to be your only savings, its meant to insure that you have some money in your old age. If you don't want to be pinching pennies at 70, save more now. Which is why the idea of privatizing it is asinine- if you're throwing it in the same risky investments as the rest of your money its hardly insurance.
Re:Um, or... (Score:3, Informative)
As it stands the illegals need to either do it the right way or take the high way home.
You think they wouldn't do it legally if that were an option?
Our immigration policies are structured such that it's darned near impossible to come legally, unless you have a rare skill. I spent three years and a lot of money trying to help a friend of my wife's come to the US, and even though we were willing to support her, there was just no way to do it. Her only legal option was to return to her birth country (she was from Nigeria but lived in Italy) and put in for the lottery, which would give her a slim chance (about one in a thousand) of getting a work visa.
After much frustration, the nice lady at our congressman's office actually suggested that maybe we should just bring the friend over on a tourist visa and then let her stay. That is, BTW, the way that 90+% of illegals get here.
I often hear this complaint "But they're breaking our LAWS to come here! We don't mind THEM, we just don't want them to break the LAW!" Except that the law is set up so that they can't come here without breaking it. So, really, it's brown people we hate, not criminals.