Nero Unveils LiquidTV, TiVo For Your Computer 156
bigwophh writes to mention HotHardware is reporting that Nero has decided to try a new step forward for home theater PCs by bringing the TiVo service to your computer. The new LiquidTV / TiVo PC package includes a (USB-based) high definition ATSC digital/analog TV tuner, antenna, remote control, IR blaster, Nero's LiquidTV software, and a 12-month subscription to the TiVo service for around $200. You can cut that in half if you already have a compatible TV tuner. This is the first time that TiVo has licensed their intuitive interface for a PC package. In addition to the TiVo interface, the rest of the LiquidTV software package allows you to burn your TV recordings to DVD or transfer the videos to other computers, iPods, PSP, or "other mobile devices." This service is due to launch next month.
Feature request (Score:4, Interesting)
Make a European version! I'm tired of EyeTV's lack of intelligence.
Re:Feature request (Score:2)
>>>You can cut that in half if you already have a compatible TV tuner.
Okay. Question:
How difficult would it be to modify one of those $60 ATSC-over-the-air tuners? I'd like to make it dump the raw data directly to a PC (perhaps via USB), so that I can read the raw ATSC data as it streams-in over the antenna. Anybody have links to websites that would be helpful?
HDHomeRun (Score:2)
Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:5, Insightful)
Me too.
I pay $100 a year for the subscription.
The subscription to TiVo is worth every penny just for the lack of having to fiddle with it all the time.... Getting the updates installed with no time investment, etc...
And that's before you take into account its ability to record encrypted QAM, since it's cableCARD certified.
I used to use a home-built DVR, but TV just doesn't matter enough to me to invest the time. I'd rather throw (much) less than a day's pay at it once a year and not have to think about it.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:5, Insightful)
The "fiddling" with a home-made DVR is driven primarily by other "fiddling".
Set it up and leave it alone and it tends to stay setup. That first part is the trick.
Once you make Tivo the combination of a random collection of spare parts and some
software, you are going to blow away Tivo's strength in this area. It will be like
trying to run MacOS on a non-mac using some hack.
Simply put: Tivo is last to the party and is in serious danger of being left
behind by everyone.
If you are already accustomed to the more powerful features of PC PVR software
then a PC running Tivo software is not going to be that compelling. Otherwise
you would already just be running a Tivo anyways.
What HD capture options will it have? How open will the recordings be?
Will I be able to use the software on the platform of my choice?
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:3, Interesting)
If you are already accustomed to the more powerful features of PC PVR software
then a PC running Tivo software is not going to be that compelling.
You're right. I don't see the appeal of running TiVo's software on a PC. Just give me the box.
Could I go back to my PC based DVR which lacked recording encrypted HD, and neded to be reconfigured when the "free" data sources changed/went away, or when my channel lineup changes? What features am I missing? I can record my shows to DVD if I want... I can watch in multiple rooms... I can watch on the road...
The only reason TiVo is being left behind is that the less-featured cable company DVRs are "good enough" for almost everybody. PC DVRs are a speck in TiVo's rear view mirror.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
If you are already accustomed to the more powerful features of PC PVR software
then a PC running Tivo software is not going to be that compelling.
You're right. I don't see the appeal of running TiVo's software on a PC. Just give me the box.
Could I go back to my PC based DVR which lacked recording encrypted HD, and neded to be reconfigured when the "free" data
sources changed/went away, or when my channel lineup changes? What features am I missing? I can record my shows to DVD if
1) My PC based DVR can record encrypted content. Tivo's edge here is gone now.
2) Data sources don't change that often. If you are groping in this then you
really don't have that much to whine about.
3) Tivo will screw the pooch just the same when the guide data doesn't keep up.
At least with a open platform I can fix my own problems myself.
I want... I can watch in multiple rooms... I can watch on the road...
The only reason TiVo is being left behind is that the less-featured cable company DVRs are "good enough" for almost everybody. PC DVRs are a speck in TiVo's rear view mirror.
will all see the same content? That's certainly news to me. Any
random PC in the house can be another "extender"? News to me. Any
platform can access the data as a simple file? News to me.
Yes, not having content locked up can be a very handy thing.
You don't have to be restricted on one vendor's tools or only to
the platforms that vendor wants to support.
Not interested in any of that? Might not be interested in a
real Tivo either. Lots of people aren't.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
What are you using? How are you decrypting encrypted content (assuming off cable)??
You mentioned open source in your post...is this with MythTV? I can't find how to decrypted channels with Myth....
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:4, Informative)
Buy yourself a Hauppauge 1212.
Can't miss it. We're all gushing over it.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
That's a nice device.
But it doesn't record encrypted digital content. It records analog content. You have to re-encode. It's misleading to describe that as recording encrypted content, because it assumes you have another device that is willing to do the decryption and conversion to analog without lowering the resolution or quality.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
Misleading? Not really.
It records all of those other channels that Tivo for a short time had a monopoly on access to.
It does it, just like any other older Tivo does.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
While you're splitting hairs, I'm watching HD content recorded off of DirecTV.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
While you're splitting hairs, (elsewhere in the thread) I'm watching HD content off FiOS, using less storage to do it, and not dealing with re-encoding artifacts. :)
It'll also be three years before my service fees add up to the cost of the those encoders had I purchased enough of them for a four tuner setup equivalent to what I have now...
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
"uses less storage and doesn't have any transcoding artifacts" all at the same time?
That's a "remarkable" system they have there.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
This whole conversation has gotten silly. You jumped into a thread to attack a solution using a bogus list of limitations, the only one of which was accurate was that that data isn't stored in an open, unencumbered format, and for what? I certainly don't know.
I'm done mudslinging for the day. Thanks for the pointer to the 1212. I didn't know about it, and I'm glad I do now.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:3, Informative)
1) My PC based DVR can record encrypted content. Tivo's edge here is gone now.
What hardware/software do you use for this? Something new must have come out recently... As recently as a year ago I was unable to find a legal device that would allow me to record encrypted QAM from my cable connection. Even the devices that claimed to be able to do it, but were bundled with Windows media center couldn't actually get the job done as expected (could only decrypt when saving to DRM encumbered WMV).
will all see the same content? That's certainly news to me. Any
random PC in the house can be another "extender"? News to me.
Yup. As long as the "random PC" is running Windows, MacOS, or Wine. I watch the shows that are on my TiVo from the road by connecting to my home network via VPN from my laptop.
Any platform can access the data as a simple file? News to me.
Now you're adding extra requirements. You have to use Tivo Desktop to view it. However, you can burn to DVD and re-rip... To me, and most people though, this is a non-issue. As long as the video plays, and the quality and speed are good, who cares? Now if you want to modify the TiVo, then you can get them as simple files... Even FTP them straight off the device... It's not very hard to do, but that defeats the purpose of having an off-the-shelf DVR. (I used to run a hacked TiVo before I switched to MythTV, before I switched back to straight TiVo)
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
Of course I am adding "extra requirements".
That's why I'm not a Tivo user. I have "extra requirements".
I want a client-server solution and I want open access to the
content so I can put it on any device I like.
It's MPEG2, there's simply no excuse for it to be an engima.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:3, Informative)
"Extra requirements" is fine. It's just hard to discuss something with somebody if they're always moving the goalposts.
It does what I said it does... not the extra stuff you added on. If it doesn't work for you, so be it. I have a feeling it *would* work for you though, 'cause there's a big difference between "any device I like" when the list is made up of what you'd actually use and "any device I like" when the list is made up of any device you can think of such that you can say "See! It sucks! It doesn't support [blah]".
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
What part of "open" and "client-server" did you not get previously?
There is nothing in Tivo-land that approximates a Media Server Extender.
End of story.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
What part of "open" and "client-server" did you not get previously?
There is nothing in Tivo-land that approximates a Media Server Extender.
End of story.
Why should there be? Another TiVo dies everything an extender does, plus more, for less money than any pure extender on the market. (Unless you know of some HD extender for less than $149? I didn't think so.) If you want a software extender, a TiVo comes with one for free.
If you don't think the TiVo->TiVo or TiVo->Tivo Desktop architecture is "Client-server" then I don't know what else to say about it.
The only sticking point is "open", which again, is only a sticking point if the closed architecture doesn't support some device that you absolutely must use, in which case build your own, by all means.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
Why should there be? Another TiVo dies everything an extender does, plus more, for less money than any pure extender on the market. (Unless you know of some HD extender for less than $149? I didn't think so.) If you want a software extender, a TiVo comes with one for free.
If you don't think the TiVo->TiVo or TiVo->Tivo Desktop architecture is "Client-server" then I don't know what else to say about it.
Ok... so I go into the living room fire up my Tivo and automagically
see all the same content that any of my other Tivos can see?
So.... I can stop MythBusters in the living room and pick it up in
the bedroom or the play room, or on any PC accessable in the home
network?
That's quite a claim.
You know, some of us have closets full of old Tivos, so you
might want to ease up on the overselling there.
Some PC running some oddball desktop software is not an extender.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
I have a Panasonic DVR I bought refurbished off ebay. It includes lifetime service that is constantly providing guide data without me ever having to pay a dime. Sweet. It was my first DVR and I'm still extremely happy with its performance.
>>>You can cut that in half if you already have a compatible TV tuner.
Okay. Question:
How difficult would it be to modify one of those $60 ATSC-over-the-air tuners? I'd like to make it dump the raw data directly to a PC (perhaps over a serial port), so that I can read the raw MPEG2 data as it streams-in over the antenna. Anybody have links to websites that would be helpful?
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
Correction:
".....so that I can read the raw ATSC data as it streams-in over the antenna."
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:3, Insightful)
".....so that I can read the raw ATSC data as it streams-in over the antenna."
Buy an HDHomeRun [wikipedia.org], that's exactly what it does. Signal comes in via coax, data comes out via ethernet.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
Too bad barely anybody leaves their digital cable unencrypted, even the first 70 channels...
Which should be downright criminal to be honest. I could just stick in an analog tuner and record it. Why are you stopping me from watching it with digital?...
(at least with Rogers)
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
I'd like to make it dump the raw data directly to a PC (perhaps over a serial port), so that I can read the raw MPEG2 data as it streams-in over the antenna.
There are very few serial ports in PCs that can handle the 19.2Mbps that ATSC transmists.
Unless you have seen one that can be set to 19200000,N,8,1, I think you'll have to look some other way. As long as this software doesn't use a very limited list of esoteric tuners in the "supported" list, you should be able to pick one up for $50 or so, with a dual-tuner model well south of $150.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
>>>There are very few serial ports in PCs that can handle the 19.2Mbps
The Universal Serial Bus 2.0 can handle that. ;-)
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
I think you would be hard pressed to find any computer made after 2002 or so that doesn't have a serial port that can handle 19.2 Mbps.
High Speed USB 1.1/2.0 is 480 Mbps, and Firewire 400 is 386 Mbps.
And why does it have to be serial?
Good old PCI does a little over 1 Gbps (133 MB/s), and PCIe does almost 2 Gbps (250 MB/s) for a 1x connection.
And 19.2 Mbps isn't that much. A typical band recording with 10 channels 24-bit 96kHz requires around 22 Mbps. There are plenty of firewire/USB recording devices that handle that without breaking a sweat.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2, Flamebait)
Fiddling? What do you mean by that? My computer auto downloads the EPG guide the internet, uses the EPG guide, allows me to edit out commericals, allows me to auto convert to anything I want, then I burn it. FIVE minutes set up time. Welcome to EyeTV.
No subscription charges. Tivo is rip off.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:3, Interesting)
personaly i juse use WMC - it does the guide well - no fee autoupdates - and is easy enough for my wife to use withouth ever having to ask me how to do something.. that alone is far worth it>>
i can't tell you the last time we watched TV as it was broadcasting.. she jsut has it set to record what ever she wants and goes for it.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
You burn it? What for?
Seriously, you've spent all that time and effort and money to make yourself a pile of plastic discs you won't ever use... And that time was wort what exactly? Plus you don't have access to the encrypted HD digital content you'd get over cable.
If you don't mind watching broadcast content exclusively, or you don't care about HD (you're using DVD, right?), absolutely... A PC DVR is the way to go... But that's an apples/oranges comparison.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
I just cancelled my Tivo service. (Or non-renewal as the case may be). My original subscription had expired, and they sent in the notice to re-activate my Tivo. I took a look at the options, and decided that since I now had an HDTV, my series2 Tivo might only get 4-6 months of use.
The month to month billing seemed like the valid option, except I noticed that Tivo was requiring a 1 year commitment with an early termination fee. There is no way that I'm signing up to a contract with a company that requires no monetary expenditure on their part, yet holds me to a potential fine for deciding to end the service. Isn't that why the month to month is more expensive? Sadly, Tivo advertises that but is really just selling 1 year blocks.
I'm sorry Tivo, I've got enough spare parts to go the MythTV route. The Early Termination Fee is a dealbreaker for me.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
Who exactly is the target market for this?
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
The subscription is $100/year. The $200 price listed in the article is basically $100 for the year subscription + $100 for the hardware. You're going to need to buy a TV tuner and a remote control to get the most out of MythTV, so really you're comparing $100/year for the Tivo service to $20/year for MythTV (what it costs to use Schedules Direct for a year) - so really the price difference is only $80/year.
MythTV does have some features that a regular Tivo lacks - being able to run game emulators, easily playing downloaded movies, etc. - but in this context (running a Tivo frontend on an otherwise normal computer), those don't really matter much since you can just run a standalone application to do those.
Re:Geeks do this w/o TiVo (Score:2)
LiquidTV (Score:5, Funny)
Does it come with Aeon Flux?
Re:LiquidTV (Score:2)
The Maxxx?
Isn't just "The Maxx"? Also, I miss THE HEAD!
Re:LiquidTV (Score:2)
The Bill Plympton segment "Push Comes to Shove" [plymptoons.com] is one of my favorites, and is available on DVD from his website.
Bout time (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Bout time (Score:2, Funny)
If it's from Nero, it has to suck. (Score:5, Informative)
Nero is notorious for installing processes you don't want that run all the time. I bought the DVD writer program (the commercial product, not the free version) and, even though I turned off everything else, it installed an "indexing service" and a "backup service", which started up at boot time. I wouldn't trust a product from them. You don't know that it's doing.
(By the way, what's a reliable Windows non-Vista product for writing DVDs of both data and video formats. I don't need "ripping", but want to transcode some of my old animation .avi files to DVD.)
Re:If it's from Nero, it has to suck. (Score:5, Interesting)
Christ, these people are as bad as Realmedia.
Re:If it's from Nero, it has to suck. (Score:3, Informative)
http://cdburnerxp.se/ [cdburnerxp.se]
And it's free!
Re:If it's from Nero, it has to suck. (Score:3, Informative)
Imgburn is freeware and works well, but it doesn't do menus.
If you want menus... I actually use Nero, mainly because I hate all the other applications I've found for this task, notably Ulead DVD Creator and Roxio Easy Media Creator.
Re:If it's from Nero, it has to suck. (Score:2)
(By the way, what's a reliable Windows non-Vista product for writing DVDs of both data and video formats. I don't need "ripping", but want to transcode some of my old animation .avi files to DVD.)
Imgburn. If you don't like it, there are about a hundred great free alternatives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imgburn [wikipedia.org]
Re:If it's from Nero, it has to suck. (Score:2)
Comes with imgburn (donate-ware, multi OS) that does the burning side of things.
Transcoding to DVD (Score:2)
Try DVDFlick (OSS) or ConvertXtoDVD 3 (VSO Software, makers of the Patin-Couffin engine).
ConvertXtoDVD 3 has one very useful feature in particular: there's an option to "copy original to DVD if possible", which attempts to transcode with slightly lower quality and leave enough free space to copy the original file to the DVD as well (in an \ORIGINAL folder). This can be very handy if you ever have illusions of trying to re-do the transcoding later but still don't want the video file cluttering up a hard drive, and you have a DVD that is at least playable in the meantime.
Re:If it's from Nero, it has to phone home (Score:5, Informative)
Nero also phones home every time you launch it.
Re:If it's from Nero, it has to suck. (Score:2)
Same with dvdbackup, makeisofs, and growisofs.
Simple, straightforward, works....
Re:If it's from Nero, it has to suck. (Score:2)
Both Nero-Backup and the Indexing service (Nero Scout) can both be disabled on install using the custom install...
Unfortunately, they still load and run when "disabled"; you can see the processes. They ust don't do much. At least, one hopes they don't do much.
Who asked for this? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a TivoHD and Series 2, which both work great. What's the advantage in running it on your own PC? Only thing I could think of is the Tivo software should be faster on a decent PC.
But if I was going to go the PC route I would install something like MythTV that would give me complete flexibility. Tivo still has to work with the networks to ensure shows are handled the way the networs want.
Re:Who asked for this? (Score:2)
Assuming you've got a networked client-server PVR system,
running the software on your PC can be pretty handy. This
is a killer feature of all of the other PC based PVRs. You
can use the same exact interface on your desktop to control
your PVR or view it's content.
More Tuners (Score:2)
Re:Who asked for this? (Score:4, Informative)
Among others:
1) You can have up to 4 tuners in the PC.
2) You can stream the video to different PCs on your network.
3) More storage, and better use of storage. For example, you can archive the actual Tivo recordings and burn them to DVD. (and yes, you can get them out of the program and edit them as you see fit).
In response to blatent advertisement for TIVO... (Score:5, Informative)
No subscription charges, files are stored so anyone can view them or burn to DVD. It also includes compression and advertisement skipping, an hour of TV is about around 500 to 900MB. They also offer a $30 add-on so you can view from another computer on the network. I share the hard drive instead, but then the advertisement skipping feature can't be used, just standard fast forward.
Snapstream isn't the most intuitive program out there, but you don't have to pay the monthly subscription charge for access to free information once the first 12 month subscription runs out.
People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2, Insightful)
MythTV is great if you like to fiddle with your DVR hardware instead of actually WATCHING the television.
For most people, this is a reasonable solution (alongside other reasonable solutions such as getting the DVR that comes from the cable/telephone company, getting a Windows Media Center box, etc). I would venture to say that a MythTV box takes a couple hours for the average user to set up (barring issues with incompatible hardware/software, which'll undoubtedly add more time). Let's say it takes 4 hours to build a reasonable MythTV box, install and configure it. $200 for this thing. $200/4 hours = $50/hour. For me personally, my time is worth way more per hour than that -- it makes more sense to go the prepackaged route.
I'm not saying it's for everything, but the fact of the matter is most people don't want to mess with their TVs. The same way they don't want to mess with their cars, microwaves, blenders and -- yes -- computers. Most people just want to watch the damn TV.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
You are replacing your MythTV box every year are you? Perhaps that's the problem.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
And, as far as I can tell, if you don't have digital TV.
My cable TV is digital cable, and my TV would be incapable of accessing all of my channels. To the best of my knowledge, most of these tuner cards work if you've got old fashioned analog cable.
In my case, it's far less hassle (and far more convenient) to buy/rent my PVR from my cable company. I'm not convinced that building my own would cover all of my channels, or be even remotely worth it to me.
Then again, I could be completely wrong and you can access the digital cable channels with that kind of setup. But, if it can't, that's a huge loss of utility for me. That, and my current PVR has two tuners and is directly integrated with my same TV guide as I have from my cable company.
For me, trying to roll my own just seems like a waste of energy.
Cheers
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, if your time is worth more than $50/hour, based on a 40 hour work week you make at least $104,000 annually, so paying for something that can be done for free is worth it to you. For those of us not making six figures mythtv is a great option.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:5, Insightful)
...something else that should bring up in all of this
nonsense about "how I can magically convert my free
time into little gold coins" is the fact that all of
the other PVR solutions offer far superior commercial
skipping features.
I don't have to worry about my 30-second skip button
going away or trying to re-program it afterwards.
My PVR skips those pesky commercials automagically.
Nice convenience. Nice time saver.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
I do, and I doubt I'm alone here in that regard. Tech has seen a resurgence -- not uncommon for people to be making 6 digits nowadays.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:5, Interesting)
MythTV is great if you like to fiddle with your DVR hardware instead of actually WATCHING the television.
Don't know about you, but it didn't take much "fiddling" to get my system up and running. From start to finish I had my MythTV box running along in less than 3 hours (not counting the time to download the ISO for Mythbuntu, as I started that and let it run overnight). After that, it's become as much of an appliance as any other set top box I own.
As you stated, a lot of people don't want to mess with their TV's - but honestly, this whole thing from Nero sounds like as much "messing" as you'd have to do with the MythTV setup anyways. For those who don't want to "mess with their TV's", which I accept is fine, an actual honest to goodness DVR is probably a much better choice.
I mean, you have 3 choices:
1. Build homebrew DVR with free high quality software.
2. Build homebrew DVR with pay for unknown quality software.
3. Buy DVR that "just works" out of the box.
#1 is the obvious geek solution. #3 is for lazy geeks and non-geeks. #2? I just don't see much of a market for it. MAYBE OEM integration as it's something that HP or the like would probably love to bundle in with your computer and charge extra for, but other than that, not much retail market for it.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
Since you have one example (your own experience), let me provide you with mine. As it happens I saved it as a series of Slashdot posts. Start here:
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=281759&cid=20390565 [slashdot.org]
Summary: Nine hours to try to get MythTV working on my desktop machine as a test, before investing in a dedicated system, and it didn't work. The problem I had culd probably be overcome with faster, more expensive hardware, but then I keep hearing on Slashdot about how MythTV can be run on any old junk lying around, so I wasn't going to risk investing money in a system when it clearly didn't work with my existing hardware. I ended up buying a Dish Network ViP 722 and have been very happy with it.
I'll reproduce it below for the non-link followers:
My biggest problem is that the MythTV distribution for Ubuntu is not built with XvMC support. My computer (Athlon 64 3000+, 1 GB, GeForce FX 5200) is perfectly suited to run as a dual back/front-end box if XvMC is enabled (according to many guides I've read). If it isn't enabled, the CPU is pegged at 100% and the signal skips - exactly what I see.
I (having nothing better to do) decided to try and build MythTV from source tonight.
I'm following the "Install MythTV" section of this page:
www.pchdtv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1938
Note that I'm using Ubuntu Feisty Fawn instead of SuSe. I have also already installed some development tools to compile the utilities that came with my pchdtv 5500.
Problems:
1. Path to frontend.h is wrong. Quick file search is easy to fix.
2. Configure complains about lack of LAME MP3 library. Installing liblame...
3. Configure complains about lack of qmake. Installing libqt4...
4. Make errors out regarding lack of XvMClib.h (as the first of many errors). Installing libxvmc, then using "make distclean" and starting over...
5. Make errors out regarding lack of qdom.h (as the first of many errors). It should have been installed as part of libqt4-dev - I even see it on the list of installed files on that package in Synaptic - but even searching doesn't pull it up. I browse to where it's supposed to be... and it's there! If I search in the usr folder or deeper I find it, but searching from root and it's gone. Ok, from reading a web page, perhaps I need to set an environment variable? "export QTDIR=/usr/include/qt4", run "make distclean" and start over. Note this step took 45 minutes...
6. Hey, guess what, that didn't work. Make still can't find a stupid file installed on my computer. Genius. Let's try "export QTDIR=/usr/include/qt4/Qt" since I see qdom in both that folder and in the QtXml folder. Maybe it's not complaining that it can't find the file, but instead that it finds two copies of the file...
7. Nope, didn't work. Ok, that's two hours, all I can take of this tonight.
(next day)
k, I think I found it in the MythTV.org howto. My google searches failed me, but I found it while looking for MythTV forums to post the question... /usr/include/qt4/Qt to the path along with anything else different between mine and what the page says, substituting /usr/share for /usr/lib...
The sections on Shared-Library Requirements for MythTV and Environment Variables for MythTV seem to be what I was looking for, except that the instructions don't match what I see in Ubuntu, and it doesn't say at all how to permanently change these variables. At least I know from previous research that "export" will set them temporarily during a console session. I use QTDIR=/usr/share/qt4, and add
8. Ok, I take that back. It still can't find qdom.h, even though the directory it's in is in my path... Maybe I should have qt3 installed, not qt4? The second file it can't find, qptrlist.h, is only in libqt3-headers according to packages.ubuntu.com. I switch from qt4 to qt3 using Synaptic, and redo all the PATH and QTDIR stuff to point to qt3 instea
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
As expected, everyone won't have 100% success on something like this, but no DIY project will. The vast majority of people here on Slashdot seem to be having no issues with this type of setup. Having seen my brother's Dish DVR, I prefer my system much more. I have more storage space for recordings, can upload videos from my main desktop system to play on the TV, can play emulated video games, and can rip my DVD's all to this device so that I have instant access to my entire collection without having to worry about actually grabbing a disc.
Look, I'm not saying that MythTV is the end-all-and-be-all of DVR's. What I am saying is that for many people, it can be a superior solution after it's been setup. And of course this IS Slashdot. Half the people here would probably rip open a store bought unit just to hack/mod it for the heck of it because, being eletronics/computer geeks, that's just what we do :). Even given equal cost if I know I can build a unit that will work as well as a purchased unit, I'd opt to build it just because I have fun doing that sort of thing.
In the end too, the MythTV recommends a minimum of a Pentium 4 3.4ghz for trouble-free viewing of HDTV streams (which I'm guessing you wanted to do - HD video playback was actually the thing that got me to move over to the MythTV box from my hacked Xbox running XBMC as the Xbox obviously doesn't have a tuner, but even for HD files the 700 mhz CPU just couldn't play the files back). My MythTV box is running a Pentium Dual-Core 1.8Ghz (same architecture as a C2Duo but less L2 cache) and it can decode an HDTV stream flawlessly with no hardware assistance.
I'm looking at building an additional frontend for my setup with another processor, and with Celeron Dual-Core 2.0Ghz chips at around $60 it shouldn't be too expensive of a build.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
I replied to the person above, but my reply works well for you, too. How did you get it to run on your crap hardware without XVMC support enabled in the precompiled Ubuntu binary? If the hardware you were using really was crap you should have needed that for glitch-free playback, right?
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=979763&cid=25197831 [slashdot.org]
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
Depends on several factors. If he was using an analog tuner for NTSC, then it will work on a fairly modest system (I used an old Celeron oc'd to 550Mhz to record from a TV Wonder way back when). If he was watching digital television but at 480p then it would have taken much less CPU than 720P and above. And finally, some tuner cards have MPEG2 decoders onboard that are separate from the XVMC support provided by video cards. Any of those would have negated the need for fancy hardware.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
I replied to the person above, but my reply works well for you, too. How did you get it to run on your crap hardware without XVMC support enabled in the precompiled Ubuntu binary? If the hardware you were using really was crap you should have needed that for glitch-free playback, right?
Only if you're doing HD. For SD you can get away with really low end hardware if you have a capture card that does encoding. I've had a frontend working with a 1GHz PIII without XVMC.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
More likely you had problems configuring XvMC in general for X - it was fiddly on Ubuntu 7.10 and previous.
Given that I made no effort to configure this - nor even knew I needed to - outside what I included in my saga documented above, that seems likely.
However with the last mythbuntu install I did (8.04 + updates) it worked out of the box, no config needed at all with a 7200GS
Good to hear it's improving. When it can do everything my ViP 722 can do and more, I'll consider it again. Now that I have an HD DVR that works with both satellite and OTA signals, it would be difficult to go back to one limited to just OTA. (Our cable company doesn't offer HD.)
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:4, Insightful)
The difference between Mythtv and paying for a solution is just in the raw power of what you are able to do. My setup has multiple diskless computers at all the tv's in the house served from a central machine and everyone can watch a different recorded program at the same time without commercials (it just automagically skips them). And when away from home you can set programs with a web browser or even stream your music or recorded programs over the web. People have made all kinds of really great add ons to it.
I love it, and could not go back to a barebones and probably DRM'ed PVR package. The Microsoft one stopped recording shows when a network set the broadcast flag recently. I will stick with Mythtv. YMMV.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
Yup - as the previous owner of two different prorpietary DVRs I'll never go back now that I'm on MythTV. My first Tivo had a hard drive failure. The second DVR was pretty nice except for the software bugs that caused it to tend to not actually record shows. Now I have a device that will tolerate drive failures, will hold tons of shows, and when something goes wrong I can actually fix it and not just toss it in the trash.
I don't really have to play with it much, either. Sure, software updates take some effort, but that happens maybe once every 18 months - I don't just upgrade for the sake of upgrading.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
Let's say it takes 4 hours to build a reasonable MythTV box, install and configure it. $200 for this thing. $200/4 hours = $50/hour. For me personally, my time is worth way more per hour than that -- it makes more sense to go the prepackaged route.
You're making the very bad assumption that it will take zero time to get the "prepackaged" version going.
Since it is software for your PC, it has all the problems that any software for your PC would have: does other software conflict with it, does it support your hardware, etc. Installing and configuring this isn't going to be a zero-time project.
Also, unless you are a very rare person, your time isn't worth more much more than $50/hour. You have to bill at $210/hour full time (2080 hours a year) for your time to be worth $50/hour. Of course, you could be very special and be able to work 20+ hours a day every day of your life and get that charge down to only $60/hour.
I don't use MythTV yet, but I'm going to be moving that way soon for my OTA recording. Right now, I use the MyHD card, and it doesn't offer the full PVR experience, but the install and configure takes less than an hour and then it just works at recording. I haven't fiddled with the software or TV hardware in either of the machines running this card for nearly two years, although I have replaced other hardware that dies, which is one of the advantages to not buying a pre-built DVR.
Comment removed (Score:2)
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
Which is what most people do instead of ever having heard of Slashdot. Welcome to The Rest Of The People.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
Let's say it takes 4 hours to build a reasonable MythTV box, install and configure it. $200 for this thing. $200/4 hours = $50/hour. For me personally, my time is worth way more per hour than that -- it makes more sense to go the prepackaged route.
You know you can buy prebuilt MythTV boxes. With support if you want. It'll cost you more than the Nero/Tivo thing but it'll do more too.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
> MythTV is great if you like to fiddle with your DVR hardware instead of actually WATCHING the television.
I'm reluctant to say this, but I went with Media Center for just this reason -- I didn't want to fiddle with MythTV. And now I'm fiddling with Media Center. HD recording never did work right -- It'd work about one time in three, and then the center channel was often missing. (Nice music, no dialog.) And now, last night, it suddenly stopped tuning the satellite set-top box. So tonight I have to fiddle with it. So, where is this lack of fiddling of which I keep hearing?
I'm thinking the closest you can get to "no fiddling" is with an appliance. I like the ability to play anything on the media center, the ability to log in remotely, sharing files with other windows and macs, having itunes, movies and a dvd player on the same box, and having a DVD recorder right there for backups, but geeze, nothing works really well and some features -- like HD PVR -- never really worked at all.
So, my feeling is, you won't be doing substantially more fiddling with MythTV than any other PC-based solution. If you want true fiddle-free performance, dump the PC and get an appliance. We're considering retiring the media center in favor of a Netflix box, Tivo, and stand-alone DVD player. I know that's trading one box for three, but it would be worth it if I don't have to be my entertainment center's system administrator anymore.
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
It doesn't take 4 hours. Mythbuntu took me about an hour or two to install and configure. I've dabbled in linux and use it as my desktop but I can't do more than some of the basics (well, basics for a geek. don't ask me to work with databases or programming languages, or anything tedious in the shell...).
MythTV is great for the mythical box. I intend to get some Beagleboards eventually, and stick MythTV on them. If the DSP works with FFMpeg agian (it works on and off between patches it seems), that makes it the best mythbox for me. Small, silent, uses SD cards for internal storage, and can do 720p. I might want something miniITX to be able to play N64 games and GTA: Vice City, along with other games like that... Even then I'm considering just using my PC when I want to do that. The beagleboard is almost perfect for video-only.
The only downside about it is lack of ethernet, and only a single USB port, even if it's USB-on-the-go. That means I've got to get a powered hub, and plug in an ethernet adapter (or USB wifi) and hope it gets the full 100mbps, and room for a bluetooth dongle (or better yet something for 10$ remotes) along with room for a keyboard/mouse (or I'll just try and find an inexpensive BT set...) for casual web browsing and possibly a near-full computer on the HDTV.
Again, the only downside is lack of ethernet, and possible the fact it's HDMI and S-Video (3.5mm in and out for audio); so I don't know quite know how to get audio-out to hook it up to my old CRT TV. Oh, lack of more USB ports too, but you can hardly blame the people for that; it's a 3"x3" board...
(MythTV is great. Your time is useless if you never want to see those shows again.)
Re:People need to stop mentioning MythTV (Score:2)
"I'm not saying it's for everything, but the fact of the matter is most people don't want to mess with their TVs. The same way they don't want to mess with their cars, microwaves, blenders and -- yes -- computers. Most people just want to watch the damn TV."
This is what modern designers don't understand, especially geeks and engineers - the job is to offload complexity and increase a persons time available for other pursuits or offload tasks. I bet if AI was sufficiently advanced enough and everything was self-programming and automated, people wouldn't mind something like myth TV if it was just "plug it in, turn it on, and I (the device) will do the work for you!" that's what people want in their lives - to offload tasks to other devices so that they have more time for leisure and self-realization.
This is so often lost on designers who don't understand the average human being doesn't want to have to learn anything, or spend any more time expending effort on another task/job, when they are overwhelmed enough already.
MPAA (Score:3, Funny)
They won't know whether to poop or go blind,
so they'll end up covering one eye and farting.
--
Oh well, Bad Karma and all . . .
TiVo interface is over kill for OTA only maybe if (Score:3)
TiVo interface is over kill for OTA only maybe if this for a cable card based system but the cable had things setup there that likely will not happen any time soon.
IR blasters are unreliable -- stay away! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:IR blasters are unreliable -- stay away! (Score:2)
I don't know the proper place to respond to your .sigline, so I'll just do it here and hope someone notices. STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM LANDMARK.
http://skepdic.com/landmark.html [skepdic.com]
These people will not leave me alone since I made the mistake of accidentally acting interested in their bullshit.
Re:IR blasters are unreliable -- stay away! (Score:2)
I would love this kind of solution if IR blasters were 100% reliable. But they occasionally fail to change channels properly, resulting in missed shows.
The one I'm using with MythTV hasn't failed to change channels correctly in the 3.5 years I've had it. It's recorded over 3500 programs in that time. Of course YMMV, but for me it's been 100% reliable so far.
Why get one of these when the DVR is the same? (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't get this deal. A brand new TivoHD costs about $200 as well (okay, $300 retail, but you can find it for less. woot.com had them for $180 at one point).
And that's a dual tuner box, 180 hours (30 HD hours), fast, easy, no maintenance, works over the internet, gets all of Tivo's features, everything. It does digital cable perfectly with a CableCard from the cable company (and all cable companies offer them now). It just works.
So... what the heck is the point of this package, exactly? It's as expensive as the TivoHD box is, it does less than the box does, it makes you provide your own computer, and MythTV is probably better than it anyway.
Has Nero finally gone completely insane?
No QAM support (Score:2)
From the article:
Even XP's Media Center supported QAM and it came "free" on most computers sold. And the Vista Media Center TV pack [engadgethd.com] makes Media Center about perfect. And best of all you don't have to pay a monthly fee as you do with Tivo. (As of yet, it's probably only a matter of time before M$ starts charging!)
They are other ways to get HD capture (Score:5, Informative)
Re:They are other ways to get HD capture (Score:2)
Not just MythTV... "everyone else".
oh, goodie (Score:2, Funny)
All the corporate overlord-ship and patent trolling of Tivo with all the reliability and efficiency of a Windows desktop! Thanks, but I think I'll pass.
Re:Hey America (Score:4, Funny)
Why not buy it instead of make it yourself instead of buying it.
What?
Re:Hey America (Score:5, Insightful)
MythTV has progressed into a beautiful solution over the years.
I have both TIVO devices and MythTV and I personally like the MythTV solution better.
Re:Hey America (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Hey America (Score:3, Insightful)
Regular people don't want to buy new/used/old hardware to run free software. Either it works with the crap we have, or we complain/forget about it.
Re:Hey America (Score:3, Insightful)
Regular people don't want to buy new/used/old hardware to run closed software. Either it works with the crap we have, or we complain/forget about it.
Re:Hey America (Score:2)
Regular people don't want to do anything but plug something in and go. Like a video recorder or DVD/Bluray, or a set top box at the most. If it isn't working out of the box, they don't know, don't care. Computers are for surfing the net, not watching TV.
Regular people are not the market for these products. Just as Photoshop, Maya and various other more high end or exotic stuff is not aimed at "Regular" people either.
Re:how does it compare to appleTV? (Score:3, Informative)
"for sure is not as intuitive or legal as an appleTV"
First, I highly doubt the DVR features on the AppleTV are intuitive at all mostly because they do not exist.
Second, why would a DVR be illegal? Recording TV has been legal in the US since Universal v Sony was decided in 1984.
Re:how does it compare to appleTV? (Score:2)
It is if you install Linux on it.
It makes a sweet little MythTV extender.
These little extender things are one of the key advantage
that all the other PVR apps have. You can either build them
yourself or buy them readymade. Instead of spending X for
every TV you might want to access DVR features, you spend
a much smaller amount and lose no flexibility whatsoever.
Tivo should have come out with an extender and not bothered with this.
Re:Nero did it? (Score:2, Insightful)