Why the Widening Gender Gap In Computer Science? 1563
ruheling writes "From yesterday's New York Times: ' What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science?' In many US universities, over the past decade, there has been deliberate effort to integrate and encourage women and girls to get more involved in the 'hard' sciences, engineering, and math. However, instead of the proportion of women to men increasing, in Computer Science the opposite is actually true. Specifically, in 2001-2, only 28 percent of all undergraduate degrees in computer science went to women. Now many computer science departments report that women now make up less than 10 percent of the newest undergraduates. What's going on here, folks?"
The girls are smarter (Score:2, Insightful)
Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
For some reason its hard to accept that a lot of women simply aren't interested in studying CS, engineering, or hard science.
Its a similar problem to something like Nursing, in the other direction. At my graduation, the CS group sat right behind the nursing group. There's lots of comments at how the CS group was 80% male. There were no comments at how the nursing group was 97% female.
At some point, the reality has to set in that women on average simply aren't interested, and all the incentives in the world won't change that.
Widening gap in first posts (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do they pick and choose industries to focus on. No-one raises a stink about shortage of female garbage collectors.
And I haven't heard a big push to increase males in areas dominated my women, e.g. elementary education.
This Is the Part ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Has anyone ever once argued that maybe--just maybe--I really really like computers?
What's the ratio in nursing? 20 females:1 male? So here's your solution: take all the entry level students from these two professions and even them out regardless of what the individual wants to do. See how happy you make everybody.
Or better yet, unfairly weight the minority sex in each of those classes, that's fair because I definitely was given a detailed account of the outside world while I was in my mother's womb and then filled out a scantron card for what I wanted to be--a white male in the United States with no heritage whatsoever.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Because white males aren't the minority. Everything is setup into making the minorities 'equal' to us, even if they swing past. How many white guys did you see in the 100 meter dash at the Olympics? What is the demographic of white NFL/NBA players?
What about teaching, home ec, 'stay at home dads', etc.
It pays less than it used to. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Widening gap in first posts (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually that does hit the news every so often, usually in relation to the daemonisation of men seeking to work with kids.
Males are in decline, leaving the traditional female sectors even more to women for fear of being branded "too interested" in working with children etc. Some folks are decrying it because kids won't have any male role models left. I think it's just what you get when society consumes itself with frivolous fears and scares itself with a new pretend evil each week.
Comes of people being comfortable and having nothing to really be afraid of, they have to invent or inflate stuff.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Women and men are different, feminism seems to think "Equal"="same". This is simply incorrect, the sexes are different and so are attracted to differing professions. Maybe men have a higher aptitude for the hard sciences because the simply find them more interesting and so pay more attention? Nursing requires an ability to deal with blood, urine, and shit of other people, I find women aree more able to deal with this kind of thing. Why is it important for more women to do "hard sceine /mathematics" jobs anyway? Let women do what they like/are good at, and men can do the same, k.
Women aren't a "minority", either.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Last I checked, they comprised about 51% of the population....
Re:Widening gap in first posts (Score:3, Insightful)
Gender gap and "dumbing down"... (Score:3, Insightful)
Think of the various attempts to encourage women into computer science by watering down the content. Not too long ago /. had an article that talked about how a consortium of schools (including Carnegie Mellon) wanted to eliminate programming altogether as a way to encourage the students to move into CS.
The problem is that students are usually astute enough to sense that the school is presenting "mickey mouse" version of the material. They want the meat, not milk bonez, and watering down the content says, in effect, (a) "you are not smart enough to understand the REAL computer science so here is the for-dummy version", and (b) that there is no point for students who are truly motivated to do the work, since an A can be had for a song.
The brainy girls are going to med school (Score:5, Insightful)
The smart girls are going to med school or veterinary medicine. They see the creepy geek guys leering at them like they've never seen a live female before and figure if they're going to need to deal with some horse's butt, they might as well go to vet school.
Re:Widening gap in first posts (Score:1, Insightful)
That's right. Little Johnny can press his face into Miss Blackwell's breasts and all is well. But if Mr. Jones gives Little Janet a hug to console her after falling in the schoolyard you better call the police. As a male, I would NEVER teach in the elementary grades no matter how much money they tossed at me. Come to think of it I probably would not want to teach girls at any grade level. Opps! I must be a homosexual pedophile... See the accusations and potential accusations are too great a risk for most men.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why is gender 'equality' so important? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, why does every career or activity have to have an exact 50-50 mix of males and females? Last time I checked, the hormonal balance in men and women were quite a bit different and each sex has a general preference to what interests them. The examples of teachers, nurses, and garbage collectors are excellent examples. The two sexes are different. Why do so many people have a hard time accepting that?
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
well... yes. Sexual harassment is a huge issue for female students/workers. One girl to a dozen guys, you're going to get hit on, a LOT. Even after I got married, I still got chatted up left and right (don't guys check for rings anymore?) and I really don't like it. It feels like the only reason half my co-workers talk to me is because I'm the only one with tits in the place... not because I'm smart, not because I can code with the best of them, not because I'm funny, or cheerful or anything else.
The "OMFG BOOBS! Let's go talk to them" effect creates a really hostile environment, which causes many of us to change majors/jobs... which makes women even more rare, which makes the next set of boobs even more rare... vicious cycle.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
That's not entirely accurate.
There were more women in my higher level mathematics classes than there were men. They had no problem understanding the concepts and theory. If anything, I'd guess that women have a higher natural aptitude for analytical thought, they just haven't been encouraged to pursue scientific careers.
We raise girls to be nurturers and boys to be tinkerers. Small children are all given little dolls, which act as security blankets. But when little girls get their next toy, it's another doll. A little boy will get a toy truck, or car. The girl gets the Barbie dream house. The boy gets the lego set. We define gender roles for children from the time they are small, then are amazed when they don't break out of those roles.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
For some reason its hard to accept that a lot of women simply aren't interested in studying CS, engineering, or hard science.
Now for fifty comments about how "men and women are different" without any recognition that historically, "male" and "female" professions can and do change.
Medicine, for example, used to be almost entirely dominated by men. Now many medical schools have 50 percent or more women in their entering classes.
The real issue, I believe, is that most people need to feel comfortable in their chosen career, and for many women the culture of computer science doesn't seem to have a place for them.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Key paragraph from TFA:
What's particularly puzzling is that the explanations for under-representation of women that were assembled back in 1991 applied to all technical fields. Yet women have achieved broad parity with men in almost every other technical pursuit. When all science and engineering fields are considered, the percentage of bachelor's degree recipients who are women has improved to 51 percent in 2004-5 from 39 percent in 1984-85, according to National Science Foundation surveys.
"Women aren't interested in X" has historically been applied to X = medicine, business, politics ... and it's always been wrong. There's something specific about CS here, and I don't think it's the field.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Women and men are different, feminism seems to think "Equal"="same". This is simply incorrect, the sexes are different and so are attracted to differing professions.
Well said! While there is nothing preventing a woman from pursing a CS degree, why do so many people fail to see the obvious.. Women are generally not interested in CS and/or engineering. I have several female friends (non slashdot reading females) who have absolutely no interest in CS. When I talk to them about computers they look at me like I'm a freak. They are more interested in jobs that are more "social". This could be why men prefer action/horror movies, and women prefer drama/romance movies such as "Sex & the City".
Rather than forcing women into CS, I say let them choose what they want to do. Women tend to be more in touch with their emotions than men are, and hence tend to prefer jobs that allow emotional freedom and creativity. Many men would be find in a non-emotionally stimulating environment.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
The OP echoed my own thoughts (geeks scaring off the girls), but the "real" reason is because women are cool and computer science is not. ;-) They simply aren't attracted to that type of work. And there's nothing wrong with that.
You ever wander past the Health & Human Development part of your college?
It's like an engineering class in reverse - 40 women; 2 guys. (I knew I picked the wrong major.) Men and women are not that same. Men migrate towards "things" and women migrate towards "humans", each dominating their respective engineering & health majors. They don't think the same and they have different interests. Why can't people just accept that?
Re:This Is the Part ... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the part where you say something you know lots of people will agree with, but preface your statement by telling us how bold and daring and anti-PC you are. GMAFB, AC.
Computer Science is Useless (Score:4, Insightful)
I didn't get into computer science to be a SCIENTIST, I got into it so I could write applications and games and make useful things for people.
You don't need a computer science degree for that. You can buy all the books you want from Amazon, you can find the answers to all your questions online, and you can write any app you want in Python or Ruby or Objective C or the language of your choice. There's no need to deal with dry courses about operating systems and so on.
And if you really want some insight into NP completeness or whatever, there are plenty of free articles to read...or buy another book.
Women want to program and do useful things with computers, but maybe they're not as interested in what amounts to computer science for its own sake?
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
If it was last night when I had mod points, I'd give you +1 insightful. When did "American" become a lifestyle rather than a place of birth?
Here's an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps we might recognize natural gender-based tendencies. Isn't it possible women just aren't that interested in programming? It's like asking "Why aren't more women interested in football?" They just aren't. It doesn't necessarily indicate some fundamental problem with the system.
I don't see a lot of people asking why there aren't more female plumbers.
interest perhaps? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is being over-analyzed though, and for the wrong reasons.
When all science and engineering fields are considered, the percentage of bachelor's degree recipients who are women has improved to 51 percent in 2004-5 from 39 percent in 1984-85, according to National Science Foundation surveys.
There are plenty of fields that are predominately one gender. A lot of people see that as a problem, and, as shown by the language in the article, it's viewed as an "improvement" when the ratio is balanced out. As long as the difference isn't being caused by discrimination or any other negative means, we shouldn't be trying to balance genders.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
That is an interesting observation, but I think you are right in a sense.
I find it interesting that as few as 20 years ago and before, people held that the "separation of church and state" was an ideal that made things work better for everyone. The notion that the government should not legislate morality had been a virtually constitutional presumption. These days, a candidate has to claim to be a [protestant] christian in order for people to vote for him at all. (Why do people invariably assume "he is religious and is therefore a good person" all the time? That was rhetorical, I know why, actually.)
And now linking conservative christian alignment with being "real americans" is just two or more steps in the wrong direction... a destructive direction if they haven't recognized the horrible dangers of a religiously lead state, one only needs to look at the mess that nations under Islamic law or our own US history where religious extremism had played some roles in some frightening eras. And it doesn't help that religious zeal ultimately becomes an arms race to see who can be the most fundamental and extreme while keeping the masses following them.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
We raise girls to be nurturers and boys to be tinkerers. Small children are all given little dolls, which act as security blankets. But when little girls get their next toy, it's another doll. A little boy will get a toy truck, or car. The girl gets the Barbie dream house. The boy gets the lego set. We define gender roles for children from the time they are small, then are amazed when they don't break out of those roles.
If/when you have children, you will understand just how false this is. I can't tell you how many times I am personally shocked, and my friends who are also parents are also personally shocked, at just how innately different boys and girls are. And it's not just my own kids, but it's all kids.
Another thing I found shocking is just how unreceptive children are to parents' attempts to define roles for them. They really are there own people, and that goes from about age 0.5 onwards. Go ahead. Try to give your male child a doll. Last time I gave my son a doll, he was about 1 year old. He threw it around for a while, then smashed it repeatedly with a hammer. Try giving your little girl a toy gun. She'll put it to bed and tuck it in and give it a kiss good night.
In our house, my wife and I do not encourage traditional gender roles. But man, oh man, do they sure happen on their own.
Re:Undergrad vs PosGrad vs Real World (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
well... yes. Sexual harassment is a huge issue for female students/workers. One girl to a dozen guys, you're going to get hit on, a LOT. Even after I got married, I still got chatted up left and right (don't guys check for rings anymore?) and I really don't like it. It feels like the only reason half my co-workers talk to me is because I'm the only one with tits in the place... not because I'm smart, not because I can code with the best of them, not because I'm funny, or cheerful or anything else.
Now, I'm not saying all those guys weren't flirting, but were all of them? I've sat and chatted with just about everyone in any of my smaller classes. I know that I'm going to work with them at some point during the year, so why not get to know them. The sooner I can pick out who is going to flake out, and who's code is superior, the better I can plan for the final projects.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
>While we're Blue Skying, I'd also like to call for wider adoption of deodorant in the CS field.
Would you accept a friendly amendment to you motion to call for wider adoption of regular bathing and clothes laundering?
differing interests (Score:5, Insightful)
As the great philosopher Barbie once said, "Math is hard!"
No, but seriously, before my karma is ruined, it's all a matter of differing interests. When I got into computers, they were still a seriously nerdcore hobby. It was rare to even encounter another girl at school who had a computer at home, even less likely for her to know how to use it. My sister looked at my computering, laughed, and went back to her interests.
Kind of without me realizing it, computers became a bigger and bigger thing in the lives of non-geeks. The internet is what really did it. When my sister finally asked me to help her find a computer, this was a watershed moment. And the social aspects made possible by the internet was what really sucked her in. I enjoyed the bulletin boards in my pre-internet days but IRC and ICQ were the killer apps that really sucked her in, that and the web in general. And more and more of her friends ended up having computers, and the social elements online weren't about computers but were simply facilitated by computers. == This, I think, is key. She has become as big of a computer geek as me now but she's using it as a tool, not as an end unto itself. She uses Photoshop and Illustrator for her art, uses different programs as a designer at her job, does her personal writing on there, keeps up with friends, etc. But it's not just geeking out on computers for the sake of geeking out. She's not installing all sorts of upgrades for games, she sticks with consoles for that sort of thing.
Since Slashdot is all about car analogies, I'd say most women are using computers the way they use a car, as a tool that they find very useful but they don't care about what's going on under the hood. Getting into CS is like becoming a gearhead. Most car users, male or female, aren't really gearheads. And from the stats I'm hearing from people I know in academia, Americans as a whole, male and female, aren't really into the hard sciences. There's just no money there.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Minority vs Majority. It has nothing to do with class and everything to do with ratio.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
And trying to force it is only going to hurt people.
It's getting to the point that if girls are particularly capable of doing math/science they get pushed to even if they don't want to in the name of equality.
For gods sake let people choose for themselves even if they don't make the choices you think they should!
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
In addition, men and women tend to learn differently. I would imagine that CS courses are geared towards what's worked most often in the past, which means it's going to favor men over women.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
You personally might not encourage traditional gender roles, but the culture around you, including friends, relatives and the media, probably does.
Re:Here's my view (Score:1, Insightful)
File a complaint. Deans and universities do tend to take this very seriously.
It's quite simple (Score:2, Insightful)
All these diatribes about sexual harrassment and descrimination are all complete and utter bullshit! It's not that it doesn't happen sometimes (it happens in every field), but, it isn't the problem.
In fact, the reason is simple: IT/CS sucks as a career if you enjoy significant amounts of Social Interaction and are a "People Person". As a group, Women are much, much, much more social than men. That is a FACT! So, naturally, they eschew the profession once they see what it is like.
Grow Up!
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
When did "American" become a lifestyle rather than a place of birth?
When people decided that culture was a sacrosanct, frozen set of behavior rather than an adaptation to environmental forces. Of course the overwhelming nostalgia hasn't helped that problem either.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
What I don't understand is why these anti-sexist persons are sooooo concerned about lack of women in science. Why do I not hear anybody crying out, "There are only 2 men for every 40 women in the Health & Human Development Major!" I guess we men don't matter. How sexist. ;-)
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Trivially falsifiable - if "women prefer good pay and healthy lifestyles" were true, then nursing classes wouldn't be overwhelmingly female as nursing fails both criteria by a wide margin.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
You're correct that the separation of church and state is important, and we need to get us some of that back.
On the other hand, as this chart shows here [adherents.com], it's not like we've ever really had a non-Christian as president. I mean, hell, it was a giant thing that Kennedy was Catholic instead of Protestant.
It needs, badly, not to matter... but it mattered 20 years ago too.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Getting chatted up and being sexually harassed are not even remotely the same thing.
Re:Dot... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Women prefer good pay and healthy lifestyles more where men prefer interesting work more. Thus...
Really? Tell me how this explains how a majority of Elementary educators are female. And don't say that its the money... My wife is a teacher and she has to work long hours (grading papers or meeting with parents after working hours, participating in mandatory unpaid training sessions), and while teaching requires a significant time on her feet there isn't an enormous amount of exercise involved. Thus... I think your argument lacks significant evidence.
Something's Going Wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
The lot of posts like "women are just different and don't like CS, accept it" are missing the point. Insight to the youngsters -- it didn't used to be this way. When I was in college about 20 years ago, there was a good supply of women in my math and CS courses. They weren't there for a lucrative career, they wren't chasing a dot-com industry that didn't exist yet. They were smart and geeky and interested in the world.
(And, in a good proportion of cases, damned hot. If you haven't had they joy of 1 or 2 totally cute, smart babes in all your math/CS courses then I do feel sorry for you.)
So something is changing in the culture or CS courses that's turned of women. In fact, it's happened with breathtaking, distressing speed. And it's not about the money, I don't think; the women scientists I knew were the *least* motivated by a big strike-it-rich payday.
I read a paper written about 10 years ago evangelizing teaching all object-oriented programming and asserting in passing that OOP will be more attractive to women for some stupid reason. Obviously that, at least, has not been the case.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
You listed one person, so I'm going to list one person too. Why would my college friend Lynn, even though she had better grades than me, decide to completely drop-out of engineering? Probably because she wasn't enjoying the career. Probably because she was less interested in things than working with people.
You may deny it, but there are a LOT of women like Lynn out there... which is why so few enter science or engineering. Simply put: They don't like it.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:1, Insightful)
I wouldn't say the intentions are purely sexual though. I know that if I worked in a place which was mostly male and there was one female, and I had to choose between talking with a male or the female [given they're both qualified to help] I'd probably go ask the female. Sometimes it's just nice to talk to someone of the opposite sex.
I'm sure if you worked in a place of mostly females you wouldn't mind chatting with the only male around. Not everyone is a sexual deviant just because they gravitate towards people of the opposite sex.
Is this discussion worth having? (Score:2, Insightful)
Look, in this age of enlightenment - where equality in gender, race, perks, consumerism, lifestyles, or healthcare is the apparent goal - does it really matter that there are is some ratio of men to women in some field of work...?
There are 2 ways to handle the inequality. 1, have government legislate or mandate some incentives for the designated minorities to want to get into that field of work; or 2, let human nature take its course as people make life choices for whatever reasons they find important and that field of work will achieve some balance on its own.
The only thing I know about incentives for any so-called minority program is that it creates a class of people who think they are owed something. And advancement is usually based on that minority designation instead of skill or knowledge or ability or accomplishment.
Any numbers about the ratio of some people in a field of work are maybe nice to know, but does it help that field...? What's the underlying agenda...? What was that proverb about truth, lies, and statistics...?
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
If comp sci and engineering majors typically made less than 30k out of college with no benefits, no one would give a shit about the lack of women in that field.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
How is over half the population a minority?
Women are an oppressed majority, which is an even subtler and crappier deal in some ways.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't get paid based on how much you or anyone else thinks you deserve. You get paid based on what salary you can command, which is regulated by supply and demand.
It's not an outrage at all that one kind of job doesn't get the same salary as another. If you want more money do something more valuable, which will be something there is a lower supply and/or a higher demand for.
Because it's a trusted position (Score:3, Insightful)
I actually mean that from the reflexive side. CS, IT, programming, etc. have become ever more recognized skill-sets. Businesses hiring such skilled workers actually put their trust into those workers -- because the business owner knows very very little of what goes on -- and doesn't want to know any more. They worry that their own involvement will actually ruin their own business, so they tend to trust us implicitly.
That's the kind of trust that most women tend to avoid, or be terribly uncomfortable accepting. It's a responsibility and an accountability that very few people of any gender choose to accept. But it is one of those things that benefits from over-confidence, and macho self-righteousness -- something males tend to have much more often.
Incidentally, many here have been commenting about the tendency for women to be sexually harassed in many work-places by men. Umm, I think there's some context missing to that notion -- men sexually harass men with equal frequency and grace. We simply don't call it harrassment because it's a part of our natural discourse.
As I've always said, if women want to work with men, they are going to encounter men and men's culture. If you don't want to be around men, you aren't going to like working with us.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
In the CS world there aren't enough competent engineers. There are a lot of bad ones, but not a lot of good ones. My current company only hires people who are able to demonstrate competence in the field, and they hire 1 out of 5 candidates at most. They have billboards up all over the state and they're only able to get one candidate per week. There's a serious shortage of good engineers. I'd be surprised if there's the same level of shortage in Health and Human Development, especially at the pay grades that they're looking at for a good programmer.
So, while it's true that the "female agenda" or feminist ideology probably has something to do with it, there are very, very good reasons to be concerned if half of the population isn't entering the field for social reasons.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
No - what earned liberals the label the "Blame America First Crowd" was them making an honest attempt at understanding why we were attacked on Sept 11, 2001 without excluding all possibility that it might have been in response to actions we had taken in the past.
Your pointless sarcasm aside GP as a point that a certain portion of the population has lost all perspective and worships the country like a god instead of being good citizens and stewards of the country and realizing that it can and does have laws that we should strive to correct to make it an even better country. They've lost the ability to realize that something can be both good and flawed.
There are two forms of love - that of a child to a parent, and that of two adults. With a child to a parent they cannot see the flaws and when the flaws in their parent are pointed out they become irrational and lash out. In adult love they see each others flaws and accept them and work to help the other solve their flaws.
That certain part of the population I talked about before loves America like a child loves a parent. Their lashing out is the source of the label "The Blame America First Crowd" because the other group, the mature one that recognizes and tries to correct flaws, was making an honest attempt at understanding what happened to try to prevent it from happening again.
I would also advise you take a look at your reaction and evaluate it in the light of this assessment.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
So nearly all species in the animal kingdom have inherent behavioral differences between males and females - except humans? You really believe that?
You know, just because men and women are different doesn't mean they can't have the same rights. You don't have to be so petrified at the thought of differences between the sexes.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure what you mean -- nationalism is hardly a new idea, or unique to America.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes it would, when you're taking minor biological differences and using them as an excuse not to try and give females the same math instruction as boys.
The problem is in this case you can't point to the actions of male teachers and students that are discriminatory against women. At least not enough of it to explain the major shortfall of women.
Re:My Thoughts (Score:4, Insightful)
That's odd, I'd say about half the women that I know went to college looking to find a husband, not to make money.
As the adage goes they were looking to earn their 'Mrs.' degree.
There are still a lot of people out there who prefer, given the choice, the nuclear family model with 1 person, usually the male, working and the other , usually the female, staying home and taking care of children.
The social thing to do, if you want to stay with you peer group however is go to college now days. Often women are basically forced to go , because they are not yet married and your ability to feed yourself is in question without a degree of some kind nowadays.
I know women who have degrees in genetic engineering, education, nursing, music, all kinds of things, but the only real reason they went to school was that wanted to be around people their own age and hopefully find a mate. The career was a back up plan.
Which to me explains a lot. As CS and engineering programs have become more work , why do that if your hope , in the back of your mind you don't really ever have to use your degree.
Seems, like it should all be good so long as that is what people want to do, but I have met women who get really angry at other women for not having a profession ( as if staying at home and taking care of children isn't a profession worth having).
I've never really understood that myself. Given our choice, I would both hang out with my wife and our child 24 / 7. The only reason I spend 8-10 hours a day away from her and my child is that food and housing are also important to us. She feels the same way and doesn't want to work. So, I'm glad I earn enough money she doesn't have too.
Re:Widening gap in first posts (Score:2, Insightful)
You have to understand that many times there are political agendas behind these studies. I'm not saying that this one is or isn't, but I've noticed trends in these types of studies.
Any union oriented jobs are not going to have this type of study (gender). You don't see this kind of article about auto workers, garbage collectors, education, etc, because they are union oriented "working class" type fields, therefore, these kind of "there-must-be-someone-to-blame" type articles are rarely written about them, even though those types of jobs can bring in six-figures a year.
Technology type fields, being that it makes some degree of higher income but does NOT do it through unionization or have a "working class" smell to it, must be something unfair that discourages "x" to go into it. Even though we have a high number of people working hourly wages or contracts compared to salary positions in the field, we're not "working class" enough.
Of course, this sounds insane and more political-babble-paranoia talk, but it's a common pattern. You don't see articles on not enough of subgroup "x" in movie directing, acting, sports, etc., even though these jobs earn millions, because they all have unions and are politically correct, not from a "we love brutal football" (as sports have that negative stereotype) but from a "they use collective bargaining and strikes so they're ok in our playbook so we won't bust them for hiring practices".
The assumption is that IT, CS, CIS, are mostly dominated by a certain evil sex and color therefore we must be criminals laughing while committing serial killings against certain under represented groups.
Personally, I know more people getting out of the fields than getting into it. Looking back I wouldn't have gone into it and am slowly plotting my way out of it. Maybe in some silicon-valley type firms they treat software engineers with some degree of respect, but for general CS type people, the beurocrats and morons managing general IT departments make it not worth it to stay in. Add that to being treated with less respect than janitorial services and with disgust at the high TCO we are, lowering salaries, using cheap foreign contract labor...
Look at the recent studies about doctors. The number of people going into general medicine is dropping at an alarming rate, and many are leaving the field entirely to pursue other options. The reasons given are the huge amount of paperwork, insurance, government involvement, the field being politically battered about by political parties...why would anyone join now?
Perhaps women, having more than just one career path to choose from when they get a student loan, are seeing the state of the field and are going into hotter fields with less risks and penny-on-the-dollar competition. Maybe they've decided that a whole lot of math, cubicle jobs, incredible job pressures, and minor mistakes that can bring down a whole system isn't as fun as it was in the 80s and 90s when it was overly hyped.
At this point with layoffs, the idea that IT people are geeks or unhip (it wasn't a problem when we were all billionaires), the field being highly complicated and takes a lot of experience to understand, not just book studying, the field being viewed as a service that can easily be offshored I'm surprised anyone is bothering to go into it anymore.
Geek Stereotype (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, the geek stereotype does very, very little to attract women to CS. No one wants to constantly work with people they find loathsome, even if they might otherwise be interested in the field. There are surer ways to make yourself, miserable, but there aren't many, and women know this. They go into fields where they can apply their talents to people they actually enjoy being around. If that turns out to be impossible or impractical, then they apply their interests in a non-vocational way for example, perhaps by creating or contributing to OSS projects. The saddest cases give up entirely.
The male geek stereotype has been around for a long time, of course; why might it be to blame when it clearly was not in the past? Simple: the stereotype has changed. The "classic" stereotype, while it portrayed geeks as socially inept, also portrayed them as harmless: socially (and often physically) clumsy in an endearing sort of way, and certainly nothing to be afraid of. The more modern stereotype is far creepier, attributing more to problems with inhibition and self-control than mere misunderstanding. Geeks were once nothing to fear, and now they are, and so people have been away. Again, there are few ways to make yourself more miserable than to work with people you feel you constantly have to watch out for. And so they don't.
Reasons from a woman... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree. I disagree with the notion that computer science is more important (higher pay) than the care of human beings, and I think people should be just as concerned to know why few men enter the HHD field.
Yes I'm serious.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't get paid based on how much you or anyone else thinks you deserve. You get paid based on what salary you can command, which is regulated by supply and demand.
I don't think that they were saying that it's an outrage that HR workers don't make as much money as other professions. The outrage comes from the overall male vs female income, which female-dominated relatively-low-income professions like HR skews, and thus gives an inaccurate picture.
However even if I misinterpret the sentence starting with the word "outrage", one thing I'm sure I comprehend, and that they're correct on: The reason nobody gives a rat's ass about gender equality in those jobs is because nobody is envious of those job's salaries. Nobody cares about the gender gap in day laborers even though it's huge. If CS was a low-paying job, nobody would care about the gender gap in CS.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
There were only 5 other females in my 300+ graduating class and maybe 2-3 in my actual classrooms at any given time. As freshmen, most of my female friends dropped out of the major and in some cases, the school at large, to go to a liberal arts college instead. My friend doing comp sci at a state school also dropped out of that major, too, and chose history. This was all several years ago.
I wouldn't say I was stalked or harassed. I actually would say there seemed to be communication issues, with other students, TAs, and professors. Profs and TAs told me and another female friend we just needed to program more. They couldn't explain things. This was true in some ways -- when I finally found a language that suited me, and I just started programming random stuff, things started to make a lot more sense. I was also really helped by my future life-partner who had the patience and know-how to answer my vital questions. When I sat in algorithms class, and the prof told us "Just make a class, with whatever member variables you want.", I'd wonder, "How? I can't just... make stuff up. How will the compiler know to do that? Why would it listen to me? It can't be as easy as just typing out a definition. That doesn't *do* anything." I was not willing to just accept the 'magic' there. There were many sticking points like that. Luckily, my SO was a C++ god, and once I understood the foundation or resolved any mental conflicts, everything fell into place.
You can make a strong case that the above is an overall teaching issue. (For instance, the situation was actually worse when the professor was female.) I do think that it is fair to at least wonder if male and female brains process info differently, due either to genetics or cultural emphasis on certain tasks. If so, maybe those brains need to approach certain subjects in different ways, too. Someone more verbally-oriented might need more 'why' instead of just 'how'.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you hit the nail squarely. Women are afraid to admit differences exist, because they think men will use it to justify separation of the sexes. (And given history that's a justifiable concern.)
However I can't help noticing how many women "yawn" when I start discussing nerdy subjects like science or computers. Clearly there's a disconnect there. A difference in interests.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Women are oppressed? Oh, you must be posting from Iran...
Here in the US, you'd have to give me a really, really convincing argument that women are oppressed in any way. They can't vote? No, they can. Drive? They can do that too. Get high-paying jobs? No problems. Be CEO? Go right ahead. Vice-Presidential candidate? Sure. Secretary of State? Doing a good job of it.
Where's the oppression again? I'm just not seeing it.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
> When did "American" become a lifestyle rather than a place of birth?
When conflics were no longer about the problem that caused them but about 'us' versus 'them'? Don't think this only happens in the US.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Women are more aligned with simple, repetitive and multiple tasks. Men are more aligned single tasks that require great concentration.
The only thing conclusive in this statement is that you need to meet more women and more men.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:1, Insightful)
Considering a lot of Americans make a big deal about their family history and where their family was originally from before they came to the US etc, then.. wtf are you talking about? What is this 'american culture' that you're trying to hang onto anyway?
My country (Scotland) has the worst rates of obesity and heart disease in Europe I think - poor eating habits and a lazy lifestyle isn't exactly something I think our nation should be proud of. My idea of American 'culture' is fast food, celebrities, gas guzzling cars, and guns. Have I missed anything?
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
A mistake both you and the GP poster are making is not clearly distinguishing between gender and sex. Sexes are based on biological differences (although it's not binary like most people think), while gender is entirely dependent on culture. So while there are definite biological differences between men and women, behavior such as men choosing engineering over teaching and vice versa is demonstrably *not* because of biological differences. It's important to keep that in mind, even if you think our current gender roles are perfectly acceptable.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
A problem I've always had with this whole ordeal is that men are raised and taught to be ... approaching? They are told that they have to be the one to start up a conversation. I think it's a double edged sword of sorts. You could have forward women, but they are quickly harassed as unsavory types. This leads to situations where a guy has to control that upbringing and suppress it during parts of his day.
I speak from experience when I say that if a guy doesn't approach women with intent of some type he will live a single life. Period. No questions asked. I stopped "trying" nearly 10 years ago and I have only once been approached by women... and she was drunk. I don't consider myself an unapproachable or ugly person, and I've been "hooked up" by friends that are surprised that I'm single. If we didn't have at least one side of the equation attempting connections, the human race would be wiped out in a matter of years.
Anyway, The ranting has a point. It's mainly that children are raised to fit certain roles in life. These roles cater to a work style and an interaction preferential in life. Men will always think about procreation because that's what they are told all their life. They are raised to be upfront and in your face (even if they aren't looking at your face.)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
So an American should at the same time both understand that hanging on to his culture is wrong and allow immigrants to bring their culture with them. Am I getting that right?
Yes. Same way you should both understand that believing the Earth is flat is stupid and allow flat-earthers to voice their opinion anywhere they please.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Much as I like Obama you are wrong here... socialist policy is rampant in the US today and mostly put forth by democrats.
Bailout is socialist, in any form. Capitalism demands you let businesses fail and markets correct themselves when they get out of control.
Government spying on it's citizens is also wrong, yet Obama voted for it, and immunity for those telecom companies who broke the law.
He is by far better than McCain + Palin (if you didn't think she was a nut job, religious or otherwise, you didn't watch her debates) but he is not what most of his supporters had hoped he would be.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Schools don't really teach science at all, they teach scientism. Ask your friends who did not get an undergraduate in math/science/engineering what their rationale is for believing in:
1) The atomic theory of matter (as opposed to the continuous theory, popular till 18th century)
2) That space time is curved or even what this means
3) of if they haven't done biology something like the germ theory of disease
The fact is people don't learn science at all, and the reason is because they don't learn how to argue through incorrect theories. I think it would be wonderful to teach the biblical theory: flat earth sitting on a firmament; with the sun planets and stars under a dome of water, .... and slowly work through why these ideas were rejected.
Re:My Thoughts (Score:2, Insightful)
If a CS degree becomes likely to result in a high-paying job, the women will come.
Yup, you pegged women all right. I guess that's why women choose well-paid careers in education, social work, and gender studies.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
"What would you say if a Muslim ran for President, and publicly said that he wanted to pass a law requiring all non-Muslims to pay "tribute", and he wanted to make Sharia Law the national law? Would you say "his religion shouldn't matter?""
I would say his religion didn't matter.
I would also say that his political stance that his personal beliefs (regardless of what they are) should be imposed on others does.
This is the reason that I didn't vote for McCain. Palin believes that her personal beliefs should be imposed on others.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed. Though, in a weird way it's another cycle that feeds into the whole thing.
Nerds/computer programmers tend to be socially inept as so many have noticed. Most are introverted and don't go out much. However, straight single males tend to try and seek out single females. You can avoid being creepy or being a jerk about it, but that's the way of the world and nothing is going to change it. So when the socially inept nerd makes an attempt to converse with a female coworker (because it's one of the few situations/places he might see a single woman), and it comes off as a little creepy (simply because his social skills are lacking), she treats him - like a creepy guy. He'll probably back off (if he's actually a decent person), but he then gets the impression that "Women don't like me; they think I'm creepy." That attitude feeds back onto itself, he fears social situations again, and he's never going to crawl out of that rut. Remember that for many guys alcohol is the trick to talking to women without coming off as nervous/creepy, and it doesn't work so well at work ;).
On a basic level, my point is just that I think that a woman has every right to not be subject to sexual harassment - but that deals with conversation topics and personal treatment. If it's just a matter of "He's being nice and talking to me but only because I'm a girl.", then, well, yeah, that's quite possible, but as long as he's not being a jerk and drooling or anything then it's kind of a given that a single guy would want to talk to you.
Re:Computer Science is Useless (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, it could be in the increasing sexualization of female children and their clothes.
That's not oppression. And, frankly, women are behind that trend. It's not men dressing up their daughters like that. (That assumes it even is a trend; I'd like to see some hard data before I consider it anything but anecdotal.)
Or the way that females make less money in the same positions across the board.
That's not oppression. They have the exact same ability to negotiate for their salary as their male co-workers. Now it might be an interesting study to determine why women don't do this as often, or if they do why they are less successful at it, but that has nothing to do with oppression.
If you're saying that there's no law requiring companies to pay the same amount across-the-board for the same position, well, you're correct; but it doesn't have any gender component to it. I can guarantee I'm doing the same job as somebody making twice as much as me, and probably somebody making half as much as me.
How about the massive gap in numbers in government, as well as the huge gap between males and females in CEO positions?
What about it? It doesn't indicate oppression.
Just because we're not as bad as horrible countries doesn't mean we've fixed all the problems.
I agree that we still have a ton of problems. But we have fixed the problems related to oppressing women.
Re:Widening gap in first posts (Score:3, Insightful)
Like fucking hell. I would enjoy teaching, but I won't set foot in a classroom alone with minors.
There's a legal prejudice against men in alleged teacher-student sex cases.
Real or perceived, fuck that noise.
"Creepy guys" coments ... (Score:4, Insightful)
... are we still in fucking highschool? I really wish women did not call guys "creepy", most guys that are labelled such are most likely socially inexperienced and anxious, I really hate how women have a monopoly on dehumanizing these men when what they really need is some friends and some advice about what they are doing that is socially repellant.
I swear such women are seriously giving the good women of their gender a bad name by being so immature, by continuing to dehumanize them based on their social difficulties.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
CS/CE is the hacker's engineering discipline.
>90% of the people going into, say, structural engineering, have a basic grasp of newtonian physics from high school and maybe have sort of taken a drafting course. Very few of them could pass the whole first year of courses without showing up, and have designed and built their own houses (and done the math to make sure those houses stay up).
Whereas how many of the people going into CS already knew how to program, had been building and hacking their own systems for years, and could have practically skipped their first three classes in CS? Oh sure, they all think they know more than they actually do (especially when it comes to good coding practices instead of just making things work, but in general, even if the classes can't assume that level of knowledge the majority of the class has it and the majority of the class thinks everything is ridiculously easy.
You take a random person of any gender and toss them into that classroom without that background (all self-taught, btw, at least if you went to most high schools I've seen) and they will be intimidated and feel as though maybe they should be taking something else.
Now combine this with the observed data that the vast majority of the computer nerds in junior high and high school are boys, and you see that the problem starts long before college, and long before high schools even have a chance to start pushing girls toward or away from science. If they aren't hacking their graphics settings to let their overclocked system play the newest game on a shoestring budget, or learning perl and HTML to set up their own website, or setting up Linux on an old box their dad gave him because that's the cool OS their friends online use... they are most likely never going to think "hey, maybe I can get paid for this thing I'm doing for fun anyway", and they're not going to feel as though they belong in a class of people who *are* thinking that.
Figure out why girls aren't doing that, or somehow change the CS culture to be more like the rest of engineering (which *has* seem some increase in female population) and you might see the ratios change.
In my opinion it's because girls aren't encouraged to "geek out" and/or define themselves by their skillset as much. If you asked most young men to think about what really drives them in their sorts of hobbies - sports, cars, computers - I would wager that it comes down to two things - love of doing it, and being competent among their peers. It's not enough to play sports, or game - you have to be good at it, to earn the respect of those who know what that means. My experience has been that these are not the strongest motivators to many young women (although they are strongly found in women who *do* enter tech types of fields). But that's just my opinion and experience, I haven't read any of the good sociological data on that sort of thing.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Right - a independent, successful woman who has plenty of options decides - makes the conscious choice - to stay home and raise her kids, and that's still an issue of sexism?
Stop telling people what to think. Women, and everyone else, have the right to self determination. Oh but she made a choice you don't approve of, so clearly we can't take her decision seriously as being her decision, after all, she made the wrong one. Did I get that right?
If someone wants to stay home and raise their kids, you have no business telling them what to do. Why don't you look at it as sacrificing her career in order to make sure her kids are raised well? Can't you respect her decision enough to not view her as a victim but look at her as someone who did something noble? And it was noble, so have a little respect.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:My Thoughts (Score:1, Insightful)
We finally heard it from the horses mouth, chicks with CS degrees are gold diggers!
But seriously, I don't want to sound sexist or whatever, but in 8 years of corporate computer jobs (IT and engineering) I've only known one woman out of a dozen or so that could develop her own software (she was a SQL DBA that came up with some cool stuff for a publishing company). In that time I have probably met 15 men that were capable out of 50+ developers. I'm being very general here but I swear to god, the only women that can actually write software are freaks of nature. I believe we should all be OK with that and pay those freaks well.
As for the gold diggers (lets say 60% of men and 95% of women developers I've worked with) that don't know jack: Go fuck yourselves. You shouldn't even be technicians if you aren't interested in technology. I'm tired of testing piece of shit software that never works because the developer doesn't know how to code an infinite loop, much less design a storage subsystem that follows a detailed spec. I swear to god we would get more done in Computer Science if all the people doing it for the $$ would just leave and let the engineers handle it.
Sincerely,
Disgruntled Anonymous Test Engineer
Re:Reasons from a woman... (Score:3, Insightful)
Shouldn't it be just as much of a problem for fathers?
Only if you think that mothers and fathers are the same and interchangeable.
I think most of us think they're not, and there's biology to support that (hormones, pheremones, breast feeding, etc). Of the people I know who think mothers and fathers are interchangable, none of them have raised kids.
Re:I hope you aren't american... (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you'd find a hell of a lot of people disagree with you in less nationalist places outside the US.
Why do I owe any loyalty to the UK?
I was born here, great, I disagree with pretty much everythiung the government does, I find the people short-sighted, generally ignorant, scared and celebrity obsessed.
Do I owe loyalty to the rocks?
Please explain this further.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:2, Insightful)
My understanding (and I could be wrong) was that a chav would be more comparable to a "juvenile delinquent". You know, those kids that have dropped (or are about to drop) out of school, who run around in baggy jeans and sweatshirts, and who get their rocks off with graffiti, vandalism, beating up homeless guys, and mugging grannies.
Your "southern people bad, rich west-coast liberals good" speech just reeks of smugness, and I think you'd find that the vast majority of people in this country don't fit in your nice little "either-or" categories.
I have to agree with Theveng (Score:3, Insightful)
You did just exactly what others here accused women of often doing: living in denial that any difference exists, so any problem there "must" be due to something else.
What nonsense.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Right on.
Every culture has its high and low points. Parts of our American culture are quite sick. For example, the hyper-individualism that is destroying any sense of community responsibility or the common good must be reversed if we're going to survive as a nation.
But there are also truly wonderful things that have come out of the unique mixtures of peoples here: jazz, country, rock&roll, for example, each of which influenced the others and each of which is far too pigeonholed today by people who don't care to become educated about our own cultural history.
There are all sorts of American culinary delights: Cajun feasts, Southern barbeque, Western concoctions and the epitome of gastric delight, the Minnesota Hot Dish.
We've got incredible diversity in language and idioms, from Texas hyperbole to Midwestern understatement.
There is a lot of good culture in America. We just tend to underappreciate the work of ordinary people and instead look to grand leaders to create culture, which by its nature is a grassroots phenomenon.
Re:Early popularity in life considered harmful (Score:2, Insightful)
But even if your school doesn't have a math team or a programming club, there are a million and one webforums and mailing lists and Facebook groups out there for budding nerds to connect with other budding nerds. The hard part is finding one that's actually woman-friendly.
I think it is easier to be unpopular as teenage boy than it is as a teenage girl.
It depends -- sometimes the attacks (verbal and otherwise) on the unpopular boys are worse than the ones on the unpopular girls. I was an unpopular girl, and managed to stay under the radar. But my school was pretty big on athletics, so nerdy, unpopular guys got picked on a lot.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think s/he is saying that the child recognizes pink as a girly color and hence deduces that they are a girl. The child simply develops an affinity for the color pink because it's what it is surrounded by most often and so when given a choice of colors it opts for pink.
A child developing an affinity for the color pink bears no relation to what I'm talking about, and that's why I called the example "silly". When I say boys and girls are different, it goes far beyond affinities for this or that color.
Boys seem to love action, motion, running, jumping, destruction, throwing, smashing, knocking-over, overturning, exploring. Even more striking than the actions themselves are the expressions of elation at just how much they are enjoying all of this activity. Girls seem to love speaking, singing, drawing, nurturing, cuddling, etc.
I can explain this over and over until I'm blue in the face, but it'll never get a full appreciation until it happens in your own household. Once you see firsthand the difference between how you thought you wanted to raise your kids, and who your kids became, then, and only then, will it sink in how bankrupt the side of "nurture" is in the nature vs. nurture question.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow. You know, I'll come right out and say that the modern feminist movement irritates the living shit out of me. I'm a guy, they blame us for everything, this isn't surprising.
But this whole fucking thread is doing nothing but prove the point of everyone who says CS is hostile to women. It's fricking humiliating to be reading this thread at all because of how fucking RIGHT they apparently are.
I went to a school where the ratio was even higher than 12 to 1, and it absolutely does make for a shitty environment when a horde of socially incompetent geeks is constantly trying to chat up the few females. It'd make a normal person uncomfortable if it was a bunch of socially well-adjusted people doing it, now take the female geeky introvert, and throw them to the socially inept OMFG boobies geeks.
And your response is what? That they should be flattered? That they shouldn't be bothered? I'm pretty socially competent myself, and my grooming is well above the minimum standard (minus details like shaving every day and ironing my clothes). I get in a perfectly decent conversation with a nice geek girl, and once she becomes a non-moving target, we get mobbed by a bunch of morons.
It's no wonder this profession is a sausage-fest.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
When did "American" become a lifestyle rather than a place of birth?
When people decided that culture was a sacrosanct, frozen set of behavior rather than an adaptation to environmental forces. Of course the overwhelming nostalgia hasn't helped that problem either.
Great job misinterpreting patriotism and national pride. When one says "American way of" something without sarcasm, it means how we do things NOW. It's hardly frozen or lacking in adaptation. Even though we have kept some of great principles (such as emphasis on individual freedom and respect for due process—or are these the things you accuse people of being nostalgic about and would like to get rid of?) that have been handed down in this country from generation to generation, I doubt that the Founding Fathers (or even Lincoln!) would recognize our country as the country they founded.
I mean, with the federal income tax and Social Security, we are practically a socialist state in comparison to how it was as late as 19th century!
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)
No, if I wanted a date, I would have asked.
Most women won't do that, so guys that wait to be asked are going to stay single.
I suspect it has more to do with being a geek and not being able to read people well. Either we think others are flirting all the time, or just fail to notice anyone who's actually trying to flirt.
Very true. Or we fail to notice anybody trying to flirt because nobody is...
Re:Obvious.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's interesting that several people say women lack interest in certain fields, and other say they are more geared towards human-oriented fields. I really haven't seen anyone ask WHY and it's implications, which is the important question.
The article summary even hits on this too, in an indirect way. Sure, there's always been more men in IT... but WHY have the numbers changed so much, especially recently?
My own experience with "not fitting in" has usually been with all the other expected facets of geek culture, especially when I was in University. MUDS (at the time), RPGs, MMORPGS, other gaming things, DND, Transformers, movies. Nerdy types tend to be very obnoxious when noting someone doesn't "know" something (as trivial and useless as it is). "OH MY GOD, YOU DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A BROADSWORD AND A LONGSWORD?"
Create an aggressive, mocking, obnoxious environment that is bent on feeling genius and superior, and I'll reconsider spending my future surrounded by such people.
On the other hand, it's up to me to trudge through, regardless. I'm glad the adult geeks tend to be more dimensional and accepting than their younger counterparts, I wouldn't have lasted long, otherwise. I'm also ridiculously stubborn, which helps too.
Where I have heard before... that women in working environments vote with their feet. If they are having a difficult time, they aren't likely to speak up, but they will leave. I would very much say that is true. Women are disinclined to speak up, for a number of reasons. A big one is that they feel they will be punished, which I also believe is (often) true.
So if women aren't standing up for women, and men aren't standing up for women, then what do you really expect?