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Last Major Supplier Calls It Quits For VHS 308

Posted by timothy
from the one-death-after-another dept.
thefickler writes "The last major supplier of VHS videotapes is ditching the format in favor of DVD, effectively killing the format for good. This uncharitable commentator has this to say: 'Will VHS be missed? Not ... with videos being brittle, clunky, and rather user-unfriendly. But they ushered in a new era that was important to get to where we are today. And for that reason, the death of VHS is rather sad. Almost as sad as the people still using it.'" At least my dad's got the blank-tape market cornered.
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Last Major Supplier Calls It Quits For VHS

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  • by dotancohen (1015143) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @05:44PM (#26231703) Homepage

    I recently had the challenge of trying to find a VHS player in a retail store. I couldn't find one, so in that sense the format has been dead a long time. Now that no major manufacturer is producing new media, I wonder in how many years the last playable VHS cassette will wear out. 20? 50? Will there even be an operable player at that time, that can output video into a then-standard format?

    • by keraneuology (760918) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @05:45PM (#26231711) Journal
      I still see DVD/VHS combo units around fairly frequently....
      •       I just bought a combo DVD/VHS a few weeks ago.

      • Agreed. It's impossible to find a brand new standalone VHS machine, but combos are aplenty.

    • by ScrewMaster (602015) * on Thursday December 25, 2008 @05:49PM (#26231739)

      I recently had the challenge of trying to find a VHS player in a retail store. I couldn't find one, so in that sense the format has been dead a long time. Now that no major manufacturer is producing new media, I wonder in how many years the last playable VHS cassette will wear out. 20? 50? Will there even be an operable player at that time, that can output video into a then-standard format?

      Probably not, although there will probably still be paid services available than can convert them to digital media. Anyone with a VHS collection who still has a working VCR had best get a good framegrabber board and start digitizing them before it's too late. I have a couple of VCRs (although I haven't used them for a long time) and for a mere $100 per tape hour I'll be happy to put them on DVD for you.

      Sure, that's ridiculous ... but wait a few years. People will be paying big money to have little Tommy's graduation video converted.

      • Song of the South (Score:4, Insightful)

        by tepples (727027) <tepples@nOSpAM.gmail.com> on Thursday December 25, 2008 @05:52PM (#26231763) Homepage Journal

        Probably not, although there will probably still be paid services available than can convert them to digital media.

        Unless it's a major-studio pre-recorded VHS tape that hasn't been rereleased on DVD, such as the PAL release of Disney's Song of the South. These paid services will likely refuse such a transfer request on copyright grounds unless perhaps your name is Bob Iger.

        • Probably not, although there will probably still be paid services available than can convert them to digital media.

          Unless it's a major-studio pre-recorded VHS tape that hasn't been rereleased on DVD, such as the PAL release of Disney's Song of the South. These paid services will likely refuse such a transfer request on copyright grounds unless perhaps your name is Bob Iger.

          Yeah, or Jack Valenti. Oh, I know he's technically deceased but I always figured he wasn't, you know, all the way dead. Seriously though, you're right, at least here in the U.S. and probably most of Europe.

        • Though i'm sure the pirate networks will make sure it remains availible :/

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by timothy (36799) Works for Slashdot

          "Song of the South," at least, is widely, and only semi-clandestinely, available on DVD from online sellers. The quality of the copy I bought is certainly not up to Disney standards wrt quality of transfer, but it does include a bonus that Disney's almost certainly won't, if they ever do release it: a parody of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves performed by the SotS's black cast members called "Coal Black an' De Seben Dwarfs." (Cue David Brent dismissal: "Racist.")

          I guess Disney just fears a negative public

          • by cayenne8 (626475) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @10:40PM (#26232893) Homepage Journal
            "I guess Disney just fears a negative public reaction too much to release the movie, which would be no issue if they hadn't buckled under to protests against it in the first place. It now looks like Disney agrees -- or close -- that the film itself was in some way particularly racist. (More than other films of the time, say, portrayin a similar era.) I was unsurprised that they didn't choose to make their first big Blue Ray film Song of the South ;)"

            Funny, tho.....I was just recently at Disney World, and all those characters are still prominately displayed on the log ride there.

            I really think it is a shame, that our society is so fucking "PC" now, that we won't still show programs that might have something not politically correct. I mean, c'mon...this IS a piece of history of the US. Media of the past should be available so that people can see what people thought and how much was acceptable in the past. Not making things like this available are almost like re-writing history. Do we not learn from the past both good and bad?

            This almost seems, in the US, to be the commercial version of censorship that many European states do with regard to Nazi symbolism and historical content or artifacts. Geez people...it happened....don't run away from the past, view it....learn from it....move on.

            Hell...I think it actually would be healthy for people today to know where society has come from...show them that cartoons often had characters blowing up into "black face"...and let people see for themselves how society has changed over the years.

      • http://www.thinkgeek.com/electronics/digital-conversion/ [thinkgeek.com]

        There are lots of services and gadgets around to do VHS to Digital. These guys sell something like that, I think.

        • http://www.thinkgeek.com/electronics/digital-conversion/ [thinkgeek.com]

          There are lots of services and gadgets around to do VHS to Digital. These guys sell something like that, I think.

          Yes indeed, but the question is ... what happens in ten years or so? With nobody selling blanks and nobody selling recorders, and nobody selling pre-recorded tapes, the market is going to consist solely of people that want to convert older recordings. Is there enough money in that, to make it worth manufacturing consumer-level equipment that will basically only get used once?

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Mycroft_VIII (572950)
            And another problem, Macrovision and such.
                I bought an AIW card a few years back with every intent of converting a lot of my vhs to digital format(s) and found at the first sign of macrovision or such the image would get DELIBERATELY garbled.
                  Will these converters 'honor' macrovision, or will they actually work?
            If they don't ignore such crap they're useless, and If I bought one I'd send it back as not working as advertised.

            Mycroft
          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by lysergic.acid (845423)

            i guess it all depends on how resilient VHS is as a storage medium. the format has been used for over three decades. billions of VHS cassettes have been manufactured and sold. there have been millions of video titles released to VHS only. many documentaries, cult films, instructional videos, etc. were never re-released on DVD.

            i imagine it will take quite a while for all those VHS titles to be ripped/converted to digital format before they're lost forever. we'll probably continue to see new VHS-rips popping

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by flajann (658201)
        This speaks to the larger problem, in general, of keeping our media formats current. Even with data, anything we may have on floppy will probably not be readable by anything current today. And I had a lot of cool stuff I worked on years ago on the 8" floppies -- remember those? I couldn't find any 8" floppy drives by the mid 80's, and the ones I had broke down, and the manufacturer had no interest in repairing them.

        Now with Blu Ray out and getting cheaper and cheaper, we will probably see the gradual diss

        • by ScrewMaster (602015) * on Thursday December 25, 2008 @06:43PM (#26232013)
          Yeah, Travan, I remember them. Nice drives, long gone.

          I used to run a multinode BBS, and we backed up the file server every night onto an HP Sure-Stor DAT drive. I still have all the tapes, but the drive died years ago. I think I could still find one (EBay, whatever) but eventually that won't be possible. And like you said, it's not all that important anyway. Twenty year old Fidonet messages and thousands upon thousands of old DOS shareware apps. Not exactly stuff anyone really needs or wants. I just couldn't make myself throw them away. Packrat instinct, I suppose. Still ... maybe now's the time.

          After that experience, I back up all my truly critical data (if we really think about what's critical most of us don't have that much ... no, your House, M.D. .AVIs don't count) to non-volatile media, with offsite storage, etc. Everything else gets copied over to the next generation of hard drive every so often. Heck, I've gone from a 5 Mb. Corvus to terabyte drives in the past 30 years. I just keep buying bigger drives and moving the stuff over.

          Like you said, though, you have to stay on top of it. It's all too easy to find yourself suddenly unable to read your old media. I understand that NASA is losing enormous quantities of 9-track tape data from the sixties because they can't find equipment to read them, and the tapes are reaching the end of their lifespan. Not good.
          • by Shakrai (717556)

            After that experience, I back up all my truly critical data (if we really think about what's critical most of us don't have that much ... no, your House, M.D. .AVIs don't count)

            What about my porn, xxx .AVIs?

            • After that experience, I back up all my truly critical data (if we really think about what's critical most of us don't have that much ... no, your House, M.D. .AVIs don't count)

              What about my porn, xxx .AVIs?

              Definitely in the "critical" category, I'd say.

          • by flajann (658201) <flajann AT linuxbloke DOT com> on Thursday December 25, 2008 @11:01PM (#26232969) Homepage Journal

            ... Like you said, though, you have to stay on top of it. It's all too easy to find yourself suddenly unable to read your old media. I understand that NASA is losing enormous quantities of 9-track tape data from the sixties because they can't find equipment to read them, and the tapes are reaching the end of their lifespan. Not good.

            Really sad about NASA -- that information should be preserved and made publically available. The longer we wait, the more expensive it will be to recover it. We've lost all the details on building the Saturn V rocket, and we lost that a long time ago. Lots of technical hurdles had to be overcome, and it would also be good to have that information preserved for future rocket engineers.

            Then again, the history of mankind on this planet is puncuated with massive loss of information throughout the ages. Libraries are allowed to fall into decay or are destroyed by conquering nations, languages are lost to time, and the like.

            But if there's one thing us humans love doing is creating volumes and volumes of information -- just visit any library.

            And now we have the totality of the Internet, with who knows how many websites, blogs, and what not. Torrents of stuff that comes and goes. More stuff than any one person could read in a million lifetimes -- nor probably would not want to.

            Ahh, humans. A fascinating species, if I may say so myself. It will be fun to watch its progress over the next few decades.

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by ScrewMaster (602015) *
              Cripes, mods, that's not a troll.

              Then again, the history of mankind on this planet is puncuated with massive loss of information throughout the ages. Libraries are allowed to fall into decay or are destroyed by conquering nations, languages are lost to time, and the like.

              Yes, like the Library at Alexandria, and others along the way, probably many we don't even know about today. At least that's one good thing about the global network, in general (and through large-scale copyright infringement in particular) information is being replicated around the planet on a scale never seen before. If our current civilization falls, hopefull there will be enough information in different places to shorten the next Dark Ages by a few centuries.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Kjella (173770)

          Honestly, I haven't seen much of a problem since we started using normal file systems, where the files can be arbitrarily transferred to another file system. Every so often, simply copy it over to a new and bigger medium and you're done. I can still open files from the 80s that way and there's no reason to belive formats will become less persistant. Already there's plenty emulation and with virtualization I see even less reason I should ever have to worry even if I may have to run a C64 emulator inside a Wi

          • by value_added (719364) on Friday December 26, 2008 @05:07AM (#26233945)

            With all due respect to antrophologists, we don't need 24/7 records of the boring everyday life of everyone. People lost things before in fires and leakages and break-ins and whatnot before too, it's nothing new.

            That boring everyday life you refer to forms the basis of our historical knowledge. Consider, for example, the letters and diaries written during the Civil War with electronic forms of communications related to the recent war in Iraq. The former is housed in museums and is repeatedly poured over by writers and scholars of every sort, while the latter is stored unceremoniously in Outlook and Yahoo inboxes, on transient blogs, and similarly transient backup tapes of White House email servers.

            Your guess is as good as mine as to how history will be written (or re-written) if those records aren't archived, and in a format that can be read for posterity.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by flajann (658201)

            ...

            So if you can't be bothered to find them to preserve them (and presumably index a little better), would you ever do it even if they had eternal shelf life? Or is it just some nice-to-have that you think should be left for your descendants and posterity, as if they're going to dig through hundreds of hours of boring stuff looking for the gold? We lose some information, big deal. With all due respect to anthropologists, we don't need 24/7 records of the boring everyday life of everyone.

            You may think me totally insane, but...

            Wouldn't it be cool if we COULD have 24/7 info on the lives of everybody since the dawn of time? Think of how it would change our view of history! Anthropologists would definitely have a wet dream, but more importantly, "history" gets written by the victors, by those who are in a position of power and authority, and they of course write from their own perspectives.

            Meanwhile, many things that happen among the "commoners" are completely lost to time. And yet quite

      • by zoney_ie (740061) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @07:54PM (#26232367)

        With €10 DVDs and now €5 or less DVDs, even the VHS tapes in my collection that I wasn't actively looking to replace are now getting replaced. There are a handful of films I can't get hold of on DVD yet, but even this year has seen old films released cheaply on DVD - so chances are I'll replace them all. Hopefully the one or two only out on Region 1 DVD will be out on Region 2 eventually - I'm not interested in the lower resolution NTSC DVDs rather than PAL.

        Even the good VHS recordings are distracting to watch nowadays, with the blurring and grain, and sub-par sound. I think I have one or two "Super VHS" recordings made from a perfect TV signal, and these are OK (again, only one or two left now that haven't been picked up on sub-€10 DVD).

        With the £/€ exchange rate, I'm hoping to fill out the cheap DVD collection a bit more in the New Year thanks to Amazon.co.uk.

        ----

        Note - hello Slashdot, 2009 marks 10 years since the introduction of the euro. How about supporting the symbol properly in posting?

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by cayenne8 (626475)
        I need to set up and digitize all my VHS copies of the old original WKRP in Cincinnati episodes....with the real music soundtrack intact....since it looks like copyright and inflated licensing issues will prevent this show from every being put on DVD in its original format. I'd like to even copy off some movies that apparently will never be put on dvd, like Spring Break, The Wild Life, and Endless Love.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Wild Wizard (309461)

      Now that no major manufacturer is producing new media,

      This is certainly not the case on a global scale.

      It seems that the US centric view is striking again as the only news article I could find on VHS production closure was for a Sony plant in France.

      Not to mention that the article in question doesn't even mention a manufacturer, it's talking about a distributor.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        This is certainly a US centric story(unsurprising given the context); but I strongly suspect that VHS is pretty much doomed worldwide. VHS is relatively low tech by today's standards; but it has lots and lots of moving parts in the player, and a fair amount of complexity in the tape(5 screws, a couple of spindles, big chunk of tape, etc). By contrast, something like Video CD is also a very well established technology, and has the advantage of fewer moving parts, shared economies of scale with 12cm optical d
    • by nurb432 (527695)

      Ummm just bought a DVD/VHS combo this summer. See them all the time at the local electronic super store ( even walmart ).

      Dunno where you live but something is wrong.

    • GoVIDEO always will be producing VHS, methinks.

      I shudder to think of the end of SVHS. It's a novel format by todays standards, but it has a LOT of archived footage.

      To answer your questions, the BEST place to try to find a geek to be able to open ANY format, is your local news station.

      The last one I visited could open ANYTHING, they had Reel to Reel, 16 track, you name it. Audio, Video, they could open it all.

      --Toll_Free

  • DVD = VHS? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SolidAltar (1268608) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @05:46PM (#26231717)

    Except for TiVo there still remains no replacement for VHS's ease of use. Pop in a tape, hit record. I know that there are DVD recorders that can do this but at least a year ago you still had to worry about DVD type, ending a track, etc.

    A large portion of the populace does not have a TiVo or a DVD recorder - meaning they lost functionality.

    • My stepfather has a DVD recorder, and it works almost exactly like a VHS recorder, except the picture quality is better and you can jump to individual recorded shows more easily. I don't really see the need anymore though - I tend to rent TV shows rather than watch them over-the-air, so I avoid adverts and BBC content I can grab from iPlayer easily. It's not so much the loss of functionality, as the changing usage patterns. When I grew up, broadcast TV was relatively scarce and it was common to collect l
    • Most people never used that functionality. I, for one, never got it to work the few times I tried.
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by retiredtwice (1128097)

      I absolutely agree. I do not have a TIVO because in my household tapes get recorded in 2 different places and are never watched at the taping location. Besides, why should I pay someone a monthly fee when I can set up VHS recorders for nothing.

      DVD recording is not very easy (yes I have one) but the VHS tapes are transportable from room to room so you can be watching and recording at the same time. Besides, VHS tapes will last for many many recordings whereas DVDs do not (cheaply, at least).

      And in th

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by lgw (121541)

        There are DVD recorders out there that are as easy to use as a VTR. Or you could just record on a hard-drive recorder in the room that you want to watch the results in - it's not that hard to run a little cabling. PVRs don't have to come with a montly fee, you know.

  • by gelfling (6534) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @05:46PM (#26231721) Homepage Journal

    Ah yes, never. In a related point, Sony lays off thousands. That's some great plan you got there, Lou.

  • Security systems (Score:4, Informative)

    by Weaselmancer (533834) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @05:48PM (#26231733)

    Don't most store security systems use VHS tapes for their security cameras?

    If they switch to non-erasable DVD, there's going to be a metric ton of these that just go to waste every day.

    • Re:Security systems (Score:5, Informative)

      by ScrewMaster (602015) * on Thursday December 25, 2008 @05:51PM (#26231751)

      Don't most store security systems use VHS tapes for their security cameras?

      If they switch to non-erasable DVD, there's going to be a metric ton of these that just go to waste every day.

      Nah ... they'll just go on hard disk. They just put in a bunch of security cameras at work (all IP-based) and I'm sure the feeds are going to some hard drive array somewhere.

      • by Shakrai (717556)

        and I'm sure the feeds are going to some hard drive array somewhere.

        Nah, they go to my house. You should really be more careful where your pick your nose, btw ;)

    • Don't most store security systems use VHS tapes for their security cameras?

      If they switch to non-erasable DVD, there's going to be a metric ton of these that just go to waste every day.

      Many (most?) record to hard drive nowadays. In fact, many of the cameras are designed for use with standard PCs.

  • by SynapseLapse (644398) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @05:51PM (#26231755)
    When you try to play your DVD-RWs. No, seriously. I've got a Hauppauge PVR150 in my desktop (Salvaged from the sad remains of the first Mythbok that died...) and I've been using it rip my parents old home movies recorded to VHS. These tapes are 20 years old and play great. The question is, what the heck can I burn it to so it might survive 30 more years?
    • The question is, what the heck can I burn it to so it might survive 30 more years?

      Amazon S3 _and_ tape?

      You will want multiple copies, in different formats, in different locations. Can't get much better than those two.

    • by NotQuiteReal (608241) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @06:43PM (#26232015) Journal
      print each frame as a still picture on good quality archival paper.
  • ...the same supplier is providing video tape transfers to DVD for free.

    That way we don't have to buy dvd copies of movies of already paid for.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by flajann (658201)

      ...the same supplier is providing video tape transfers to DVD for free.

      That way we don't have to buy dvd copies of movies of already paid for.

      But the quality -- the quality will sucketh big time.

  • One thing the article does not state is the identity of the last major supplier of VHS tapes. I would guess it would be someone like 3M or BASF.

  • by Cookie3 (82257) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @06:15PM (#26231873) Homepage

    Although I haven't been in a store that sold new VHS tapes in years, I'm a little apprehensive.

    While it is true that many shows have been re-released in DVD format, there are plenty of titles that did not (and/or will not) see re-release. In many cases, these aren't "essential" or "good" works, but film historians often use relics of the past to show the evolution of a director's style or the level of technological development at the time. They might also use these works to show the political climate of the country it was produced in, or as a source for historical evaluation.

    If you need to make a film based in 1988, wouldn't it be nice if you had a lot of filmed material from 1988? What if you can't get access to what you know you need because it was all copyrighted, but never released on DVD? What if you can't find a collector who's willing to sell you their VHS tapes?

    I don't think it's a fault so much of VHS going out of the market, but of copyright law. It's easy to find a VCR, or a tape deck or a record player, but finding a specific release from those mediums is nearly impossible without extensive searching, often commanding high prices from collectors. If that material was considered out of copyright, I could take my library and digitize it, throw up a torrent, and *poof* it's around for forever.. but because I can't, it will sit around until I'm an old man before there's even a glimmer of hope that it might be made available to the public.

    • by Dogtanian (588974)

      If that material was considered out of copyright, I could take my library and digitize it, throw up a torrent, and *poof* it's around for forever.. but because I can't, it will sit around until I'm an old man before there's even a glimmer of hope that it might be made available to the public.

      No, you *can* do that. You just can't do it legally, but it hasn't stopped countless people doing it anyway.

      I wonder if this has pushed the sale of what would have previously been considered obscure material in (e.g.) "complete series" form, whereas on VHS you'd have been lucky to get "best of" compilations or at best the series on 1001 bulky tapes with no extras.

    • by bhtooefr (649901)

      Or buy a server in some country that doesn't respect copyright, and put the movies on that server. Voila, problem solved.

  • by AtomicSnarl (549626) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @06:17PM (#26231885) Homepage

    Almost as sad as the people still using it.

    You push it in the slot, push Play, and it works. No menus to wander, no special features to get in the way, no Director's Cut, no frigging mind games with some dinky remote with tiny print and bitty buttons to poke at to get the bloody thing to play, now. Get off my lawn! Damn kids these days... Harumph. Where did I put my bifocals?

    This message sponsored by AARP, because you'll be old someday, too!

    • No unskippable ads (Score:4, Interesting)

      by JSBiff (87824) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @06:30PM (#26231943) Journal

      While I mostly like DVD's, there is one thing about them that have always angered me. With VHS, you could pop in the tape, hit Fast Forward, and cruise by the 10 minutes of crap at the front of the tape (Copyright Warning, obsolete trailers, etc). I sure wish some DVD maker would produce a unit that would let me skip right to the main menu on a DVD, instead of forcing me to sit through that first 5-10 minutes of filler. I just want to watch the movie, already, and it seems to me that if it's *my* DVD player, it ought to obey *me*, not the disc producer.

      • by ceoyoyo (59147)

        I particularly like how they write "forbidden" or somesuch on the screen when you try.

        DVD Player that comes with OS X seems to let you skip. I have a REALLY old DVD player that does as well.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by phillymjs (234426)

        Amen. I just watched a movie on tape that I haven't re-bought on DVD yet. While I was amazed at how bad the picture quality was compared to the DVDs I'm used to now, the one thing that was very nice was being able to just fast-forward through all that bullshit at the beginning that I'm now used to having to sit through.

        I used to have a DVD player that let me do what I want... it was GE-branded but my understanding was it had Apex guts. Some Apex players had a 'secret' menu that let you set them to ignore 'n

      • by kvezach (1199717) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @06:57PM (#26232089)
        That err, "feature", is called the User Operation Prohibition [wikipedia.org] flag. Some DVD players can be patched to disregard the UOP, others disregard the UOP by default. Do a web search if you're interested... I note it's also considered DRM, which just shows exactly whose "rights" are being preserved here.
  • Even though I no longer own any VHS tapes myself, I have a dual-player that I'm going to hang on to. My family has a lot of video memories that are still on VHS, and it's unlikely they'll be converted anytime soon.

    In fact, I'll probably try to get a mid-range VHS player (one of the small ones) once I have a bit of extra cash, and just store that away. Either it will come in handy for myself, or in 50 years I can sell it for a tidy sum to someone who needs one.

    I'm also reminded of a certain Cowboy Bebop ep

  • by adnonsense (826530) on Thursday December 25, 2008 @06:44PM (#26232025) Homepage Journal

    I RTFA (hey, it's Christmas!) and using my advanced English comprehension skills can hereby inform you that it's about what's apparently the last major supplier of content in the VHS format in the USA giving up on VHS. It says nothing about manufacturers of VHS media (aka blank tapes) stopping production.

    I bet blank tapes will be available for a good few years yet.

  • BS, why should someone change when what they have works fine?

    Just because its new and shiny and you don't care doesn't make you a sad loser. It means you don't succumb to marketing.

    • Advantages of VHS (Score:3, Interesting)

      by FooAtWFU (699187)
      The advantages of VHS (and, for that matter, of audiocasettes) are simple and easy to see. You can give a VHS tape to your toddler. He will not break it. He can probably even throw it across the room a few times, and it'll be fine. Your kids can rifle through the library to find their favorite film. Until you get absurdly violent with them, they're not going to break. You can't say that about CDs and DVDs. You can't even really say that about the average CD case, though DVDs are marginally better.

      DVDs are

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