Green Is In At CES, But Is It Real? 165
OTL writes "You've heard the talk of 'Green' throughout the whole of 2008, but the way a product affects the environment will be a huge consideration in consumer buying habits, at least when it comes to gadgets.
But, the CEA report also said that consumers are very skeptical about the green claims made by high-tech firms for their products. More than 38 percent of those interviewed by the CEA said they were confused by green product claims and 58 percent wanted to know the specific attributes that prompted hi-tech firms to label their products green."
What the hell is green anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)
What, do they paint it green? Is it because it consumes less electricity? Is it because the circuit boards are made out of cardboard and bio-degradable silly putty? Or is this whole "green" movement nothing but an excuse for the boomers to try to look responsible in the waning years of their power, covering up the gross excesses of the past few decades, living amongst superfluous abundance while the rest of us watched the economy go straight to hell? These people jabber about carbon footprints, kilowatts, and they act like this is hard science. Most of the terms these "greenies" use are vague and could be defined many ways. People think driving an electric car is green -- but then fail to take into account that those high performance batteries are highly toxic and need replaced every few years. And the aluminum required to build those cars to be light enough to be practical requires huge amounts of electricity -- and most of that energy is created by burning coal.
The problem with the green movement, and any product that caters to it, is two-fold: One, lack of total picture. There is no objective way to compare two products in a similar category in a cradle-to-grave capacity. Fundamentally, it can't yet be done because we don't know what's more or less harmful than the next thing -- does a ton of carbon monoxide in the atmosphere equate to "more harm" than several ounces of CFCs? Without a way to make a direct comparison, or have a way to objectively measure a products "green performance", calling something green is meaningless. The second problem is... Many green products are of inferior quality and are higher priced than their non-green counterparts.
Why is this sham movement getting attention in the technical community? I'm not saying this as a troll, I honestly want to know -- how can you people as engineers and scientists look at this and say that any aspect of this so-called movement is objective?
What's the definition of green? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a big difference between what people interpret as being green. If you believed Greenpeace, we would all be back in the stone-age since everything has some type of impact on the nature. If you believe Apple and set it as a standard then all of our stuff would be more expensive, in line with the Apple products, no more $200 laptops. If you believe Dell 'green' is everything that is painted white (or black) in order to attract/detract heat or other types of radiation from certain components.
Then there are the politicians trying to define what is green and if you believe them, selling vouchers of cubic meters of carbon exhaust to 3rd world countries is their form of becoming 'green' while China and other 3rd world companies are becoming burial grounds for and are 'recycling' valuables from our dead gadgets in what they call 'green' initiatives.
A few years ago (60's-80's) becoming more environmental friendly was burning trash and putting exhaust pipes of factories higher in the sky effectively moving our problem higher. Now we've gone to burying our trash, effectively moving our problem again.
Re:Next thing you know... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What the hell is green anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)
What good is "being green" when you're going to generate twice as much waste throwing the pieces of shit away?
Re:What the hell is green anyway? (Score:3, Insightful)
I dunno... it's less to do with being "green" than it is trying to save money, but I look for things that use less power (laptop over desktop, for example... yes, I know $ for $ you get more power with a desktop, but most uses don't require the kind of power than processors are giving us unless you're a computer nerd slashdot reader).
Even my desktops... last system I built I had a choice in AMD processors between 65 watt and over 100 watt (older generation, but similar clock speed). It was only a couple bucks more to get the 65 watt.
But I don't walk around all high and mighty about it, I didn't put a "green" sticker on the computer case. I did it because I'm cheap, because the fans have to work less so make less noise...
There are side benefits to green sometimes.
Dirty little business secret (Score:5, Insightful)
From TFA:
"More than half are willing to pay a little more for 'green'," said Mr Koening. "22 percent said they were willing to pay up to 15 percent more for it."
Green as a marketing gimmick is dangerous. The general idea is that green somehow is more expensive.
White wine vinegar is a nice natural cleaner, and it's cheap. So is ammonia in water. Why spend so much money on other alternatives?
Reducing package size is green and it costs less to produce. Why increase the price if cost is lowered?
If you can recycle all of a manufacturing plant's waste within the plant, you don't need to hire waste disposal, so why increase the price of goods made at the plant?
Business is constantly trying to get people to buy crap and justify it. Many of them are using the green label to justify their price tag, which is bullshit. In economics, the price of an item is not determined by the cost of the single item, but how much it is in demand, how much supply there is, and how much people perceive it's value. Companies go green because it either saves them money, or because a government tax break or tax penalty makes it more expensive not to go green.
Do not pay more for green products, demand the current products go green and don't increase their prices. On your own, look for natural alternatives which are just as good and easy to procure, but aren't made by big name brand labels.
Re:What's the definition of green? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you believe Greenpeace, the worst offenders are a) whichever companies get them the most publicity by attacking them (Apple, Nintendo, but not semiconductor makers consumers have never heard of) and b) whoever doesn't give money to Greenpeace.
Re:Next thing you know... (Score:5, Insightful)
Huge impact ... maybe monetarily. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm all for being a good steward of the environment (that probably gives you a good hint as to my worldview, too).
But when it comes to "green," unless we're talking about dumping pollutants into various ponds, lakes, and oceans, the primary thing that I would be interested in "green" about is monetary. Like most things.
Specifically, if it uses less electricity, power, etc., and I don't need it to use more, that's a Good Thing (tm). For example, light bulbs. Unless it's a reading light (I don't like the "weird" light when I'm reading), the electricity-saving bulbs are nice on my electricity bill. I assume the same about other large appliances, though I haven't had to buy one yet.
But the "green" craze that companies seem to be going through is kind of annoying. Sort of like the organic fad. I'm actually into the organic food stuff (read: anti-hormone, somewhat against certain GMO stuff, not a fan of ingesting pesticides, and organically grown food usually tastes better, too), but the rich-posh-styling-trendy organic thing (the typical Trader Joes or Whole Foods crowd) is silly. A trendy, posh thing is one thing; a good reason to do it is another. I prefer good reasons over trends. Fashionable organic food or fashionable "green" consumer items are usually silly and overpriced, it seems. Like most lemming-reaction trends.
Re:What's the definition of green? (Score:5, Insightful)
Son
Obviously you never looked at America's rivers,etc in the 1960's.
Look at China now, that's what America was like in the 1960's.
Please mod parent off-topic (karma whoring) (Score:-1, Insightful)
Parent is posting off-topic - it has nothing to do with pea soup - in an attempt to attract moderator attention. This is gaming the /. moderation system and it should not be tolerated. If you are uncomfortable moderating Off-topic, please use Overrated.
To the parent: if you have something to say about the article, reply to the article like everybody else.
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
This seems like something the feds could or maybe even should do. They want restaurants to put dietary information on menus, what's the harm in putting wattage draws on electronic product? There is a pretty clear gap in the knowledge out there now, is "Green" ROHS? Is "Green" higher efficiency parts?
If there were two nearly identical machines and one drew 80w and the other drew 120w would that affect your decision?
I historically haven't cared but I have built some systems with AMD's HE parts and saw a measurable difference in my electric bill.
Re:What the hell is green anyway? (Score:3, Insightful)
People think driving an electric car is green -- but then fail to take into account that those high performance batteries are highly toxic and need replaced every few years.
I'll start taking you "Green is BS" people a little more seriously when you stop using your FUD.
The Prius has been on sale for 9 years, and they have YET to replace a battery for wear or lack of charging issues (source toyota, look it up yourself).
Oh, and Nimh batteries are almost completely recyclable in environmentally safe ways. NiCads are nasty, but they are in use less and less.
Re:What's the definition of green? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Really? (Score:4, Insightful)
What about appliances (fridges, laundry machines, etc)?
Re:Dirty little business secret (Score:5, Insightful)
Green == Cheaper (sometimes) (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the however that a small part of them that feels like they are doing the "right thing", because it does seem when two products are the same in price and quality the green one is chosen; but it is definately secondary for most people. I'd say the best test for that was to see how many consumers would but the more expensive product that was identical except the "green" bottle was $.10 or $.50 or $1.00 more; particularly for consumer goods that don't have other buying decision reasons such as being "organic" like food.
Companies love it because like the consumer, it saves them money, particularly when they can sell the product for more money "because it is green" when it cost them less to make it, or pass the savings on to the customer and beat their competitor at the price game. It is a win-win in either scenario; and gets their foot in the door with the truly eco-conscience consumer who may never have bought form X vendor due to their environmental history. In this case, lip-service is still service.
Re:Please mod parent off-topic (karma whoring) (Score:2, Insightful)
To the parent: if you have something to say about the article, reply to the article like everybody else.
While true that the article has nothing to do with pea soup, it has plenty to do with buying green products. Pea soup is green.
The parent post will get a +1 insightful to grant karma, and then get modded to +5 funny. As for your post, sadly we lack a -1 Joyless Whiner mod, so you will have to settle for Off-topic.
The Mod Squad
Re:Really? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:What the hell is green anyway? (Score:2, Insightful)
In theory, you're right - in practice, you're wrong.
The problem here is that many important LOB applications are only supported in very specific conditions, which usually makes it necessary to dedicate an OS to the application.
Most of the Microsoft infrastructure also requires or recommends several OS instances to run most of their software.
Segregating applications into their own OS instances is also a good idea anyway, as it eases troubleshooting and removes negative interactions between applications running in the same OS instance.
If you do not run any Microsoft software, you'll probably have less of a need for virtualization - as it solves many problems that were created by both Microsoft and most of the 3rd party vendors that surround MS.
There is additional flexibility gained from virtualization, like VMware DRM, VMware DRS, VMotion, Storage Vmotion. These can give you advantages no single server can give you.
Re:Really? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Really? (Score:3, Insightful)
NOpe...I do ok...but, I work hard and save for things I want and like. Frankly, I don't care if it has the Wolfe or Vulcan name on it...but, I do want a stove that DOES what those do in terms of BTU output. I want a 6 eye top, pref. with a griddle area too. I just don't seem to see many other stoves out there from other brands that offer this type of thing. I've worked in pro kitchens before in early life before I had a 'real' job...and I want something on the consumer end that approximates that type of set up. I like to cook at home...I like it a lot, pretty much a hobby.
No...I don't really look at the power bill...kinda like the gasoline pump, just a necessary evil to go through with life. But, I don't go into debt, I won't go into CC debt hell ever again (I did years ago, took forever and a hurricane to get out, but that's another thread)...but, I also don't spend money trivially here and there on small stupid shit. I work and save to get the nicer things in life that please me.