Rescued Banks Sought Foreign Help During Meltdown 749
theodp writes "An AP review of visa applications has found that major US banks sought permission to bring thousands of foreign workers into the country under the H-1B visa program, even as the banking system was melting down and Americans were being laid off. The dozen banks now receiving the biggest rescue packages, totaling more than $150 billion, requested visas for more than 21,800 foreign workers over the past six years. (It's not known how many of these were granted; the article notes 'The actual number is likely a fraction of the... workers the banks sought to hire because the government only grants 85,000 such visas each year among all US employers.') The American Bankers Association blamed the US talent pool for forcing the move, saying they couldn't find enough Americans capable of handling sales, lending, and bank administration. The AP has filed FOIA requests to force the US Customs and Immigration Service to disclose further details on the bailed-out banks' foreign hires."
Re:When the going gets tough... (Score:3, Informative)
industry is full of crap when they claim there is a people shortage, what they really mean is there is a shortage of industry willing to train people inhouse.
Re:No, I agree with you. (Score:2, Informative)
As someone who's currently on an H1-B work visa within the US, allow me to correct some parts of your comment and the comment you replied to.
1) Mexican migrant workers don't come in to the US on H1-B visas. They most likely come in under H-2 or H-3 (seasonal/agriculture). H1-Bs are meant for specialty occupations (IT, finance, etc)
2) H1-B visa holders don't pay any less taxes than Americans do. We have the same amount of taxes deducted from our pay (FICA, federal and/or state) as Americans do. Plus, we get to pay sales tax too just like everyone else!
3) While it's true that some people live very frugally in the US and remit money regularly, I think you'll find that's changing, especially in the software industry. For an example, consider how many SUVs and sport cars there are in Redmond or Silicon Valley (where there are a *lot* of people on H1-B visas).
I don't doubt that something needs to change, but I think you're looking in the wrong place for it. I believe that paying out bonuses is not fundamentally wrong even in these times, but the banks/Wall Street shouldn't be using bailout money to do it.
Re:Could I give a tip to my fellow Americans? (Score:2, Informative)
Of course the H1B's have good resumes, they made up exactly what you wanted to see. Do you have any idea how common H1B resume fraud is?
Re:No, I agree with you. (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, they are likely to pay more than citizens because they probably won't be able to get the large tax relief that people get from having home mortgages. Also, being younger, they probably don't have dependents that can be claimed to reduce their taxes.
There is one way some H1-B holders can reduce their taxes -- if they pay the equivalent of social security in their home country, they may be able to avoid paying it in the US.
Re:I want to know... (Score:4, Informative)
I'd be feeling a lot happier if they WERE getting 7 figures, instead of the 8-9 they get now...
Re:When the going gets tough... (Score:5, Informative)
By law, H1-B's are supposed to be paid the same or more than U.S. workers. If they are doing what you say (and you can be sure they are) then they are breaking the law.
Re:Gives "tone deaf" new meaning (Score:5, Informative)
Write.
Write to your congresscritter. Every chance you get. Add the email address to your congressperson and your two senators to your address book.
Go to OpenCongress [opencongress.org] to see what bills are coming up, which ones have been introduced, which ones are headed for debate, which ones are headed for a vote.
Tell your reps what you think about the bill and why it's a bad idea. If they don't hear from us, they start operating in a vacuum. They start guessing. And there's a 50-50 chance that they're NOT doing what you want them to do.
And after the vote is over, send another message. If they voted the way you wanted, thank them. If they voted against your wishes chew them out.
Write letters to the editor. True, you can usually get published only once every 30 days with most papers but hell, that's 12 letters a year. If you make them cogent and well written you can make friends with the editor, who's looking for good stuff. (My last letter got printed just today as the leadoff letter, which means it was printed in a gray box with an attention-getting border.)
I have had it up to here. I will NOT go gently into that good night. At the very least, people will know where I stand on something. It may not do any good but the more people who do this the more our government will work the way it's supposed to.
Re:stop the xenophobia (Score:5, Informative)
H1-B holders are allowed to transfer to another employer provided the new employer is willing to employ them in that status. In fact, the H1-B is one of the most employee-friendly of all the visa categories - I used to be on an L1-B and I really was tied to my employer. If I quite (or they fired me) it's off to the airport - regardless of how long I might have lived here or how much I paid in taxes. Luckily I'm now a greencard holder but being an immigrant in this country really isn't fun.
Re:What they really mean (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Time line is a bit off (Score:3, Informative)
Indeed, this is reactionary xenophobic crap. I work in a bank, I'm heavily involved in hiring both domestically and from overseas. Banks haven't been hiring _anyone_ in the last 6 months, and pretty much no-one for 6 months before that (didn't anyone see all the layoffs?). Also, to dispel some of the BS I read about H1-B, the vast majority of those candidates are people who are brought over here temporarily on contracts (through agencies) and who turn out to be excellent people who we want to keep. We pay the agencies, we pay their expenses, and we pay their legal fees. Then we pay them the same salary as we would anyone else - they're _not_ a cheap source of labor.
Re:Could I give a tip to my fellow Americans? (Score:2, Informative)
Have you ever looked at the actual projects the international students or domestic students have on their resumes? Are they even worth mentioning and are they as amazing as they say they are on the resume? Or did they just put them on there to fill space on their resume?
Or could it be that US companies don't like hiring interns because they spend most of the summer training them? Then when they graduate the students still haven't had a "good-quality" internship because those companies don't hire interns themselves? So the international students have foreign internships that may be better and then get hired instead.
There's a strong line of thinking among engineering companies that there are not enough upcoming engineers and that they need to encourage younger students to go into engineering, yet those same engineering firms strongly resist hiring high school students even as CAD technicians to give them some experience?
Re:stop the xenophobia (Score:3, Informative)
Umm, actually yes, that would be at the higher end of the range, but still within reason. Even in years of lower immigration, more immigrants arrive in Toronto than the US issues H1b visas. 52% of Toronto's population was born overseas, and it's the fifth most populous municipality in N. America. More immigrants apparently settle in Toronto each year than any other N. American city, including places like Miami or Los Angeles. The most recent figures I found [canada.com] are 87,136 in 2007 and 99,293 in 2006.
Re:Could I give a tip to my fellow Americans? (Score:4, Informative)
In reality, the contents of the resume are not as important as actual skills and experience verified during an interview process. The resume is simply an advert to get noticed, after which the real work on the part of the prospective employer and potential employee starts.
Now, you've implied that your American candidate has easily the skills required, at that point the resume should not matter at all any more. If it does, it can only be for political reasons, ie to make it look better when your company lists its employees in written documents, a CYA on your part, etc.
But here's the thing: if _you_ care so much about the hiring politics that you're willing to forego a qualified candidate just because his resume does not look so good, then you've _already_ compromised your hiring standards.
Re:When the going gets tough... (Score:3, Informative)
The problem is, so does everyone else.
Gonna mandate that public construction be done with US steel, even if the cost is a little higher?
I'm perfectly OK with that.
It'll help american companies and american jobs, sure. But then the europeans decide that if you're not playing fair then they won't buy stuff you make, they'll use their own.
I'm ok with that too.
Result? We lose out on the global economy, which is largely responsible for the last 20/30 years of growth, everyone pays higher prices and things are no longer done best or cheapest, they're done in isolation.
If it means that a lower-middle-class worker gets to quit feeding his kids Ramen noodles and gets decent benefits instead of being consistently shafted and told he is the only one to blame for his problems then yeah, I'm fine with that.
If that person gets a raise instead of a paycut with cheap "better-qualified" foreign labor being the excuse then yeah, I'm fine with that.
I'm tired of starving because of some assholes bottom line. It wasn't like this 15 years ago for people in my income bracket. Seriously, try to support a family of 4 on $30,000/yr that you work 60-80 hrs a week for. Then try not to reach for the gun in your glovebox when your employer bitches about 2 hours of overtime or tries to cut your hours.
And I don't want to hear that "go work somewhere else" crap because most employers are starting to adopt the same type of BS. When every company can get away with it, they all will eventually gravitate in that direction. Now they are even using the "recession" as an excuse to abuse employees for profit.
Re:Despite myself (Score:4, Informative)
By way of comparison with Australia, where I live:
1. As I understand minimum wage in the US, it is woefully inadequate and not generally enough for a single person to live on working a single full time job. This completely defeats the purpose of the thing. In Australia, with a few notable exceptions, minimum wage is at least sufficient to pay rent and food. Low income earners also pay virtually no tax.
2. We receive unemployment benefits for as long as we are looking for work. They are not exactly a huge amount, but are sufficient for people to live on frugally.
3. In the 1990s the US had around half the rate of unionisation of the rest of the industrialised world (see table 7 here [eh.net]).
4. In Australia, if you don't have private health cover you will receive free, unlimited public health. It is slower and can be of a lower standard, but on the whole it is readily accessible and reasonably efficient. Only about 50% of Australians have private health, and those who do not are by no means exclusively poorer or less well educated - many choose not to have it on principle.
5. Our Federal Government provides public loans to any Australian citizen who qualifies on academic merit for a university course. Free K12 schooling is universally available at the state level. There are also extensive trade-based tertiary education courses funded by the government.
Foreign workers pay plenty of taxes too... (Score:3, Informative)
In quotes from interviews in the article, and comments here on Slashdot, there seems to be this misguided assumption that "taxpayer" equals "American". That is wrong!!!
Immigrants who work here, even on a visa, pay taxes on their income. They shop at the same stores, forking over sales tax. Many foreign workers own property that is taxed, they buy stocks that are taxed, etc. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find any difference between an immigrant and a U.S. citizen from a "paying taxes" point of view, over the same period of residency.
So, stop acting as if foreign workers contribute no money to the government, as if somehow every use of tax dollars will only impact U.S. citizens.
Re:When the going gets tough... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Mod Parent Up (Score:3, Informative)
There also seems to be an assumption that the work is all the same kind, or that all workers are interchangable, which is absurd.
Even if you reduce it to IT workkers, that still runs the gamut of everything from syasadmins, website designers, SAP configurers, device driver writers.
But then this is pretty typical of the crap stories theodp posts.
Re:When the going gets tough... (Score:3, Informative)
The benefits of growth accrue to business owners and shareholders, not to workers... use "we" carefully in such context.
Real wage growth [wikipedia.org] has stalled since the 1970s, after CPI/inflation, and wages have been in decline for most of the decade [minyanville.com]. Since the 1970s, wage growth has been stalled relative to CPI. Your current paycheck may have a bigger number on it than last decade's, but that increase has been wiped out by the growth in prices you're touting.
Slashdot readers may disagree with this, but that's probably because tech workers earn higher wages on average ... but that doesn't change the macroeconomics.
Yu put too much faith in the American people (Score:3, Informative)
Hey, there's another 800 billion heading towards the banks under the new guy... Didn't you notice?
Perhaps you might have noticed that the new guy at the Fed, is the old guy from the New York fed.
Or perhaps you didn't notice Obama's biggest contributers.
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638 [opensecrets.org]
Re:Could I give a tip to my fellow Americans? (Score:1, Informative)
Although I'm not in America, I'm a manager for a large tech company as well, and I'm in the same position as you are when it comes to hiring good talent. But I would not recommend hiring those Indian students based solely on their resume. The three times I've actually gone ahead and hired them, I've been burned quite badly.
They have a tendency to "overstate" their abilities. One of the Indian fellows we considered had listed all sorts of amazing projects he worked on while at university in India. We though he had the right experience, so we decided to follow up by calling several of the references in India he had provided. All of them were very supportive of him, and gushed good sentiment. So we hired him.
Although his resume mentioned him having experience developing in C++ on Linux, on his first day he couldn't even list the files in his home directory. He apparently sat there for three hours, typing in commands like "list", "files", "showdir", and so on.
Crap like that went on for the first week. By that time he had finally gotten the projects building. Most of the new developers we bring in manage that on their first day. It made us uneasy that it took him a week to get his local copy of the project to a point where he could start working.
To keep the story short, things didn't work out well. We gave him six months to get his act together. It didn't happen. Basically every skill he listed on his resume was a lie. Later on, we found out that the references he had provided us were bunk. He had relatives in India pretend to be the professors and other students he had worked with.
One other Indian we hired for a more database-oriented position consisting mainly of development, schema design and some basic server administration. Like the first, he had a great resume with lots of experience that sounded really good. Things even seemed to go well with him for a month or so.
Then, while creating a new index, he managed to drop all of the tables in the database he was working with. That's not the kind of mistake a professional DBA makes. We weren't pleased, but it happened at the end of the week, and the downtime was minimal. So we told him to just take the previous night's backup, and restore the database by Monday.
So we all got in on Monday, only to find him not at work. And the database data wasn't restored. We frantically tried to contact him all day via phone and email, and even sent somebody to his apartment, but couldn't get a hold of him. Meanwhile, we had one of our other DBAs look into restoring the data. What he found was sickening. The backup job had failed three weeks prior, and our Indian DBA even noted the failure in his log and then just ignored it, despite hourly reminder emails!
He finally came back to work a couple days later, and we fired his sorry ass. He was one of the costliest hiring mistakes we'd ever made.
The third Indian developer we hired wasn't as bad as the first two. His resume wasn't as full of bullshit, and so our expectations weren't so high. But it became clear after a couple of weeks that he was woefully unskilled when it came to development. Not to say our other developers are perfect, but he made so many obvious mistakes that we just couldn't keep him around.
I've never run into these problems with the European, American and Japanese developers we have worked with. They usually have honest resumes, and thus we can make hiring decisions that work out well for everyone. Our work gets done, and they get a job they can perform well.
Maybe someday Indians will realize the problems their padded resumes cause. That said, they'll never get another chance with me. Those three incidents have convinced me never to hire an Indian developer again. Nor will I ever work with an Indian software development firm. I just can't trust them.
Re:When the going gets tough... (Score:2, Informative)
Looks like you didn't pay attention to the grandparent post. Nobody's making you live in a bad neighboorhood, or buy bad food when real food is actually cheaper.
Don't confuse real food with canned, processed garbage. Somehow, humanity has managed to eat healthy with much less money before the advent of McDonalds. Really, if you somehow think McDonalds can prepare food cheaper than you make yourself, you fail Economics 101.
Don't rent. This will cost you money.
Don't go without insurance. This will cost you money.
Your financial ineptitude is not the grandparent's fault.
I have news for you. (Score:3, Informative)
YOu don't choose the kind of live you want to live when it comes to economics.
Markets tell you how much your skills are worth and you better make the best out of it.
If other people are satisfied with far less income than you, just wishing this fact to go away will not improve your wage.
Re:When the going gets tough... (Score:3, Informative)
Don't rent. This will cost you money.
When you are young with crap credit due to medical bills that piled up shortly your parents gave you the boot the day after you turned 18 with no vehicle because they lost THEIR house and moved onto their boat, you don't really have the option of buying a house. Fortunately I had an IT job at the time with benefits but it didn't last and I was laid off.
After I was laid off from my first IT job, I had a hard time finding anything but bench tech work for about a year until I was about 20. Again, couldn't afford insurance and still make basic living expenses on $12/hr.
Got a real job again at 20 but by then the damage was done to my credit. I actually took a massive paycut in exchange for job security by going into education. I made around $50k at 22. Six years later, I make around $30k now plus some sidework when I have time.
Don't go without insurance. This will cost you money.
Easier said than done when you have a family. Family coverage through my employer would be $1300/mo. If I take the crappy plan with the $3,000 deductible it's around $950. Went up 21% this year. Roughly an entire paycheck. Try supporting a family of four on what remains. But better to have job security than BS contract work or a shaky position somewhere in a shaky economy.
SC isn't known for its booming tech industry either.
Your financial ineptitude is not the grandparent's fault.
Nope, but they helped contribute and they are happy to help. She borrows money from me on occasion as well if she's hurting and I have it. I'm a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic one. No need for the arrogant tone.
Re:When the going gets tough... (Score:3, Informative)
I frequently ask people what will replace America's industrial engine, the very engine that drove it to economic and military supremacy, that will allow it to maintain its current status as a world power without continued deficit spending. The answers I usually get revolve around words like "service economy." Nice-sounding euphemism, that. Unfortunately, "service economy" is semantically equivalent to "third world economy."
Honestly, I've been to a few such countries. I'd not choose to live in many of them, and I reset being forced into it by ignorant, short-sighted and self-aggrandizing Americans that can't see that we're shooting ourselves in the foot.