High Tech Misery In China 876
theodp writes "Think you've got a bad job? Think again. You could be making keyboards for IBM, Microsoft, Dell, Lenovo and HP at Meitai Plastic and Electronics, a Chinese hardware factory. Prompted by the release of High Tech Misery in China by a human-rights group, a self-regulating body set up by tech companies will conduct an audit of working conditions at the factory. In return for take-home pay of 41 cents per hour, workers reportedly sit on hard wooden stools for 12-hour shifts, seven days a week. Overtime is mandatory, with workers being given on average two days off per month. While on the production line, workers are not allowed to raise their hands or heads, are given 1.1 seconds to snap each key into place, and are encouraged to 'actively monitor each other' to see if any company rules are being transgressed. They are also monitored by guards. Workers are fined if they break the rules, locked in the factory for four days per week, and sleep in crowded dormitories. Okay, it's not all bad news — they're hiring."
Re:Well at MY place, (Score:4, Interesting)
However, in China I'm sure the benefits are great!
I have to wonder if this story is accurate, though. Maybe it is, but snapping keys into place on keyboards seems like a perfect job for high speed robots. Maybe 41 cents per hour is too cheap to justify robots?
You forgot... (Score:3, Interesting)
...street begging, prostitution, et cetera.
Sadly, it's true that these sweatship jobs are often a good option compared to what else is available in those countries.
It is most definitely a high violation by Western standards, true. But, do we really need to psuh to Westenr standards? And can we?
TFA did point out that these people are being paid even less than what *Chinese* labor law requires. That at least needs tob e fixed
Trouble is, these placed would probably clean house tem[porarily when inspectors show up.
Re:Damn it.. (Score:5, Interesting)
To be honest, I thought they had machines that pop keys on and assemble these things - but I suppose over there people are cheaper than machines.
Re:Fines... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No surprises here (Score:1, Interesting)
Whats a better alternative, being forced by the government to sustain everyone via taxes? Capitalism the best system we've got, even with all it's problems.
There is nothing immoral than the forced re-distribution of wealth
Re:No surprises here (Score:3, Interesting)
Rubbish ... you could easily double these people's wages and it would add less then $1 to the total cost of your PC. Would you really stop buying if they did that?
What's the problem? (Score:1, Interesting)
This actually isn't such a bad job in China. Just remember that everything is relative. Most of these people will be glad just to have a job and money.
My company has several factories in China, and while the conditions aren't as 'bad' as the article describes, they're still quite spartan with long hours. But that's normal.
China is going through its Industial Revolution right now. It would be more appropriate to compare it to the late 18th and early 19th centuries in Britain - where working conditions were initially far worse than most modern factories in China.
Re:Fines... (Score:2, Interesting)
I saw an analysis of the cost to build an iPhone. Actual assembly labor was insignificant, and would have cost less than $10 at USA rates.
$.02 per keyboard (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Fines... (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, because if it were a Chinese firm doing this, that would make it okay.
It it was a Chinese firm doing this, it wouldn't be any of my business, since I live in the USA.
I mean, unless you want us to go over there and invade to enforce our morality. We're good at that.
What if... (Score:5, Interesting)
After all, a large fraction of all the new PCs purchased today are purchased to replace existing systems; which themselves had keyboards before. And being as keyboards themselves have not changed dramatically in the past 10 years (or more), there is a good chance that the consumer could have just used the keyboard from their old system on their new one.
The throw-away mentality towards consumer electronics is likely a major culprit in the development of these sweatshops.
Re:Film at 11... (Score:3, Interesting)
Those two countries also had nice wars that helped them do it.
Re:Regulation (Score:5, Interesting)
perhaps I am rambling already, but this hits close to home for me. When I was a guitar playing, electronics geeking, jr. high student I found out that one of the worlds biggest audio electronics manufacturers had its headquarters about 10 miles away. As soon as I turned 18 and qualified to work there I started to chase it a little bit. Soon I was testing digital audio electronics and making more money than I had thought possible (for my age and experience I mean). My job was exciting (at least to me) and I could afford to live in a small apartment with one of my best friends from the factory. Everything was going great.
Well the company went after some major buyouts and a few of the new products flopped. 9/11 happened and people stopped purchasing entertainment related items like the recording equipment we were making. The company was de-listed from the nasdaq and things started to go downhill. There had been several competitors with production facilities nearby. Soon we were the only one. They had all moved to contract manufacturing in china. Our company faced the decision to either do the same or collapse completely. To the stockholders it was a no-brainer. They moved the production to china putting us all out of work.
I had been making about 150 dollars a day, for the first four ten hour shifts of the week, and if I worked friday and or saturday it was $225. I was told the man who gets my job in china will make the equivalent of 150 dollars a month, for working 14+ hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week, living in some shitty dorms. I remember my hands aching from the job, and people were always needing surgery on their wrists, and that was with 40 to 60 hour weeks, I can't imagine the schedule in china. If they can't do the job though, there are people lined up around the block to take their place.
well some years have passed now, and it has been wild. I figured I had a career in electronics manufacturing, but there are really no factories in this area anymore. There used to be hundreds. I had to move back with my parents or be homeless, and I had to come up with a new career path. It has taken years to get qualified in some other type of work that is actually stable, its not nearly as much fun, but my bills are finally paid again.
As for the company, the quality of the product went to shit, people quit buying, they are a very small company now. Very few of the original people still survive there. Even the china production is very small now.
The dilemma for me is when I am out buying tools for my latest job, or when I am buying electronics, I picture whats going on in china and it makes me sick. But I go to the store and look around, and I no longer have the choice to buy from a country that respects the workers a little bit. Even if there were lots of American, Canadian, British, etc, keyboards around, I doubt I could afford them with my paycheck from the new career... so the house of cards continues to crumble.
10% of a dim bulb (Score:5, Interesting)
Concerning orders of magnitude, it wouldn't hurt if some of the posts to slashdot were an order of magnitude less stupid.
TFA states these workers are being paid 41 cents/hour to work 84 hour weeks. Let's pay them 82 cents/hour to work 42 hour weeks. This will require twice as many workers, working shifts half as long, and double the labour cost for each keyboard.
100 key keyboard at 1.1s per key is 110s, which is under 2 minutes. Original labour cost is 1.3 cents/keyboard. Under the relatively humane proposal, this doubles to 2.6 cents per keyboard.
It would take six intermediaries between China and the U.S market to each mark-up this additional labour by 100% for the humane labour practise to add $1 to the cost of a keyboard landed to the consumer.
I've heard a rumour that Walmart doesn't have six intermediaries in their supply chain, and those they do have rarely get away with 100% markups.
This has nothing to do with the economics of production. It has a lot more to do with Chinese society having pockets of corruption where everyone with the power to put a stop to this turns a blind eye to enslavement conditions, and powerful corporations turning a blind eye to the greater powers in China not doing much about this.
Even Detroit would have difficulty coming up with a way to make a $10 keyboard cost $100. $40/hour with a production rate of two keyboards per hour and markups galore?
I once heard that decimation has come to mean either 90% attrition or 10% attrition. Contrary to popular opinion and Walmart shopping tendencies, it's not actually true that an "order of magnitude" is 10%
Re:Film at 11... (Score:4, Interesting)
Throughout the Industrial Revolution unionization in the US was repressed (sometimes violently) by those in power. Police and National Guard troops were called in on several occasions to break unions.
Just because people have rights, doesn't mean that corrupt officials will recognize them.
Re:Compared to doing what? (Score:5, Interesting)
Traditionally, the first move to create a "capitalistic" economy is to take away the posibility of subsistence farming. It has happened in the west too. If you allow me to bring Marx here, this is part of the "primitive accumulation of capital"...
Re:Compared to doing what? (Score:2, Interesting)
True, although in this case, the blame lies with the Government for doing this, and not the companies, or "capitalism", as is commonly blamed for this.
The reason for independent labor unions to exist. (Score:2, Interesting)
Even if you're not union, it motivates business to keep conditions that are far from slave labor.
Re:No surprises here (Score:5, Interesting)
Deregulation is fine if you are willing to accept a very unstable economy. We had lassiez-faire prior to the 1930's, and along with that 7 depressions in a 50 year period, including the Great Depression and the Long Depression. Not to mention the Great Panic that led to the creation of the Federal Reserve.
You might get faster growth that way, but at a big price. You also get massive social upheavals and personal misery because of the instability. You also get accumulation of wealth that is so concentrated in the hands of the few that the it threatens governmental institutions. For example look at the ugly incident in 1933 where a group of bankers conspired to conduct a coup d'etat during the FDR administration, and replace the US Government with a fascist regime, or the problems TR had with business trusts.
If we flash forward to the current economic situation it is pretty clear that the proximate cause was the relaxation of reserve requirements for investment banks by the SEC in 2004. This freed up hundreds of billions for mortgage backed securities that an unwitting and unregulated rating industry categorized as 'AAA' when in fact they were 'C' grade. The money that went into these securities went to fund subprime and alt-a mortgages, and ultimately inflated the housing market to the bursting point. The head of the Treasury, Paulson argued for removal of reserve requirements and self-regulation of the financial industry when he was head of Goldman Sachs. It is ironic that he had to deal with this outcome from the other side 8 years later.
Capitalism works well and I am not advocating abolishment of it. however there must be restraints on some of the outcomes; left unfettered it does provide an optimum or fair outcome to all who live in such a system, nor does it provide for a stable or peaceful society. An economicist would say that entities in such a system do not consider external consequences when making descisions; sort of an extended view of the prisoner's dilemma problem.
Re:Film at 11... (Score:4, Interesting)
They are still doing vastly better than most Chinese through history
I'm sorry, I can't agree with this. If you give me a choice between working a rice paddy or being effectively chained to a hard stool with guards and spies, I'd choose the former 10 times out of 10. Advancement this is not.
Re:10% of a dim bulb (Score:3, Interesting)
The working conditions do stink (and should be improved), but I agree with you that simply telling us the wage (OMG! 41c/hour!!) without telling us how much it buys locally is simply there to enrage people who don't think. Obviously it must be a decent amount of money locally if people are willing to put up with the working conditions.
Re:Film at 11... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd choose the former 10 times out of 10.
I doubt it... these people are making exactly that choice. They were, almost without exception, peasant farmers before. Don't underestimate the drawing power of a full belly... we're still warm-blooded and food is still a primary motivator.
Re:Fines... (Score:3, Interesting)
Fair Trade for coffee [wikipedia.org]
Re:Well at MY place, (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked with a co-op students whose parents were slaves in a Chinese factory.
They live at the factory. The foreman decides when they wake up, when they eat, and when they go to the bathroom. The foreman decides when it's time to let them go to bed at the end of the day.
When you were awake and not in the bathroom or the cafeteria, you were on the assembly line.
They made iPods.
Re:Film at 11... (Score:5, Interesting)
If you give me a choice between working a rice paddy or being effectively chained to a hard stool with guards and spies, I'd choose the former 10 times out of 10.
You seem to believe that a peasant is free to walk away from his rice paddies whenever he wants. To me it is quite obvious that 12 hours of hard labor in the sun, bent over and knee deep in water, are less pleasant than same 12 hours spent sitting on a stool in a room and pushing key caps onto switches, otherwise the workers would not be working at the keyboard shop.
Re:Well at MY place, (Score:5, Interesting)
Well... i say they should ask the workers. Im not in favor of almost-slave-labor like it happens in China, but when one thinks of a billion-people country, images of true missery come to mind.
I think it might be the case that the workers would be far worse if they didnt have a job at that sweat shop.
Re:Film at 11... (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't even need craigslist and eBay is dead as a doornail. eBay's new policies make it practically impossible to sell anything without the criminal enterprise known as PayPal. I give that company about 1 year before it files for bankruptcy.
Absolutely true.
I still have the same keyboard I was using in 1995. Still operational and in use on a server. My most recent acquisitions were 2 wireless logitech keyboard/mice bundles a few years back, which are still in use as I write this post.
On one of my servers I still have a Pinnacle Micro 4x4 CD writer that cost 1,000$ brand new. I write log files out onto it automatically.
My garage has several shelves filled with older computers still intact, but I don't have the space, power, or tolerance for their noise to run. Just last week I harvested out 1 Gig of DDR 266 memory to give to a friend to upgrade his old machine.
Years ago, I gave away a full machine that had one the Pentium 90 chips in it that had the flaw.
There are plenty of tech guys like me that have never thrown away a piece of equipment in their lives. The closest I have ever come to "throwing" something away was donating some working equipment to schools.
The most overlooked product you can recycle though, is the Microsoft OS license on the system itself. I don't know how many hundreds of millions have been wasted because people did know that little piece of information.
Re:Film at 11... (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, the yuan is artificially low against the dollar. Once the Chinese let their currency float, that salary will start to look a lot better, especially as we start to lose more and more jobs in THIS country (due in no small part to our onerous regulations that drive companies overseas to places like China).
Re:Fines... (Score:5, Interesting)
You could easily pay the same workers $7 per hour and the labor cost per keyboard would only go up by about 20.4 cents a unit.
That's fine, if you're only giving a raise to the assembler. But there's the guy who makes the keys, the guy who makes the frame, the guy who runs the machine printing the letters on the keys, the guy who attaches the cord, the guy who attaches the USB connector to the cord, the guy who puts the keyboard into the box, the guy who takes the box and puts in on a pallet, the guy who runs the forklift to move the pallet, the guy who drives the truck, the crane operator who loads the ship, and the thousands of others farther up the supply chain who manufacture the raw materials to make the keyboard.
When you pay all of them at least $7 per hour, that's where the order of magnitude price increases will come from. Look at the big picture and see how unrealistic that is.
Re:No surprises here (Score:1, Interesting)
Let me put it this way, Harry Markopolis was onto Madoff's bullshit years and years ago. He had evidence flying out of his ass. He ate, slept, and breathed evidence. He was ignored for eight years, until way after it was too late. The SEC has proven itself to be a complete waste of time, money, and trust in failing to finger Madoff as the crook he is themselves and also in failing to even give Markopolos the time of day, and should rightly be dissolved. My folks see usury daily in the real estate and notarization business. We reported it constantly, went through the appropriate channels to see about having these obviously fraudulent loans investigated, and we were told the same thing on a local level that Markopolos was told on the federal level: The regulatory bodies in question were too busy with bigger fish. Needless to say, a lot of people that didn't know any better got screwed, but the above remark stands that if you don't know what you're getting into you don't need to be playing this game.
Regulation only works when it's fucking enforced, and people will always be dicks. (And dopes.) It's as true today as it ever was: If you want something done right you have to do it yourself. If people in this country want to accumulate wealth, they should want to build it instead of borrowing Monopoly money for flat-screen televisions to hang up in their trailers. Maybe in some crazy fantasy world consumers are informed and the law actually does its job, but that ain't America. And yes, these bankers and investors should be out panhandling, they should have to face the consequences for their abject stupidity and in some cases willful criminality, but with or without a damn near trillion dollars worth of handouts they still won't so there's another moot point.
Re:Film at 11... (Score:1, Interesting)
These workplace violations are widespread outside of major metro areas of China, due to local corruption, economic desperation and ignorance of workers rights under the law. I own a company that employs people in China (as a foreign-owned company we're strictly checked for compliance). The working conditions described are highly illegal under current Chinese law. Even in cases where employers are politically connected, exploited employees in China are increasingly suing for compensation, often with pro bono legal assistance. Overall, the situation is improving about as fast as it can under the circumstances.
Re:10% of a dim bulb (Score:1, Interesting)
One infamous study that answers this question is The Big Mac Index [wikipedia.org].
The results weren't what we'd hope. A low nominal wage usually means a low real wage. Big Macs cost the same everywhere, but the people making them don't earn the same everywhere.
There is such a thing as poverty.
Re:Well at MY place, (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, there are about 2 million American workers who work for less than $0.41/hr. Of course, they're all in prison - but why nitpick?
All we have to do to compete in the global economy is imprison the entire country. That way American companies don't have to abide by such provincial concepts as safety regulations, labor laws, retirement and health benefits; and American workers never have to worry about a lack of employment.
Win-Win!
Re:Naive? That's rich! (Score:3, Interesting)
Well said Sir, I do agree with your statement on good regulation, that does seem to be the issue.
Ironically it was a conservative (Right wing) treasurer that reregulated our banks, and did so very well, protecting them from the excesses that ruined the US banks.
I cannot relate the regulations/deregulation that are used in the US, only see the results of them, and compare that with the end result of reregulation in Aust.
I understand the reasoning that went into the Fannie/Freddy thing originally (To help the disadvantaged buy their own home), but it seems the execution was poor.
When faced with the same concept we gave first homebuyers a subsidy to assist them in buying their first home. This has worked quite well for us.
Of course in "stuff you I'm alright" attitude that pervades postings here, you would all jump up and down and complain about contributing to the welfare of your poorer fellows. I am always stunned by the selfishness shown by financially comfortable Americans towards the poor ones.
Thats why you have such a violent society, you can have less crime, in direct proportion to the ammount of welfare you pay the poor.
If you want an example, see the ongoing disaster that is Health care in the US, where dying people are discharged from hospital because thay cant pay their bills, and insurance accountants get to decide what treatment you get!
Social justice works in a lot of countries, as does wealth redistribution, nothing fanciful about it. Have you noticed yet that in your country the trickle down theory does not work, all that happens is the rich get richer.
the short answer is "Yes" (Score:3, Interesting)
There are labor workers working like slaves in China, as described in the article. And the number of these workers and companies are huge. It is bad. I agree on that.
Don't look at China using the US eye please:
From our (Chinese's) perspective to see it, the positive side is not only "they are hiring", it means more for China. Those labor workers are mainly from the very poor village (farms), very few of them are from the cities. In China, the population from the poor village is still high, much higher than you can imagine (maybe 30% of all 1.4B). They can't earn a living if just working in the farm, they can't raise their kids or support their parents if just working in the farm. Those companies provide them the job, though with very touch condition.
Let me do the math for you:
41 cents per hour means 0.41x12x6x4 = 118 $ = 826 RMB / month. this is the net pay (take-home pay after tax, insurance,..). (this example is a bit low. More often I heard is about over 1000RMB / month.) anyway, you know the value of that in China? It means 800 $ in the US. With that, you can not have a perfect life, you can not afford a car, but you definitely can live (even in big city like Beijing). Furthermore, if they bring the money back to their village, the value is much much more (in some village, 10 US cents is good for a one day expense. i am serious. It is China, don't look at China using the US eye please.) . So this is related to the currency value. 41 cents/hour looks very very low in US. but remember, it's different in China, Its value is more in China, and much much more in the poor village.
Some idiot:
I really don't like that some western "journlist" ignores the big currency conversion (1$=7RMB) when they are talking about this bad companies and 41 cnets/hour. While, on the other hand, they look so closely on the conversion rate, complain the conversion rate is too high and should be 1$=2RMB. This is idiot to me. they don't really know about China, they just want to make anything in China negative.
Reality:
From my once a year trip back to China, I can see clearly the life of the peasants from those villages is improving a lot year by year. The main main reason is not China cuting tax for them, is not China running a stimulas package for them. The reason is they, by themsleves, go the city to work in those "IT" compaines. They should (i agree) earn more and the pay that they deserve is much less. But this is the start, they have started to earn much more money. They have started imporving their life a lot. Those companies are bad, but they are providing oppoturnities.
Talking about China development:
I am not saying those companies are doing the good thing. They are in guilty. China is still in the middle of development, not everything is perfect, especially we are lacking a lot of rules and laws. There are bad companies taking this as an advantage and making huge dirty profit from the poor labor worker. but from my perspective, it is a step of the development. We can not make all the companies to be good ones. There are bad ones existing. But those bad companies are also helping China and helping those poor people to improve their lives, although the companies should improve their lives much better (by providing better pay to them). I believe China is working very hard on making the regulation better to make the poor labor workers earn more and more, and make the whole system more healthy.
Anyway, this is just from my (a native Chinese's) perspective. You (western people) may not understand it, but i want you know what I think.
Re:Compared to doing what? (Score:2, Interesting)
I will post this anonymously because I already modded several people here.
Seriously, it is not USD $.41 an hour is not as bad as it sounds. I was curious how that compared to Mexico's pay rate.
See, the minimum salary in Mexico is MX$54.80, which is about USD $3.76* per 8 hour DAY. That means, USD$.47 per hour.
Now, I like to use the Big Mac Index [oanda.com] to show the buying power of the earnings on each country (refer to the bigmac index article [wikipedia.org]for justification).
A Big Mac in the USA is USD$3.57.
In China, it is 12.5 Yuan or USD$1.8*
In Mexico, it is MXP$32 or $2.2*
That means that even though people in Mexico are paid slightly more, the cost of living is higher than in China (from the BigMac cost).
Now, if you compare the China prices with the USA price, then, you can see that the cost of the BigMac is almost a half. This can give you a hint on why people from the USA think as the payment rate is to low.
Moreover, if McDonalds in China is similar to McDonalds in Mexico, then a BigMac is an "expensive" luxury item. That is, it is not something that people will eat every day.
In the case of Mexico, a "standard" complete meal ("comida corrida", soup, main dish, small dessert and water) will go around MXP$30 or USD$2.00, and that is in a "comida corrida" restaurant (it is not a real "restaurant" but a place where the work-class people go to eat home made kind of food).
Of course, eating at home makes things cheaper. Which would mean that the $54.80 daily allowance will get people more.
Although this is a very rough analysis, I think it helps people see that there is no sense in comparing only the net payment quantities. There are lots of factors to consider.
One thing I agree with everyone else is the working time. It is really sad to know that people is working 12 days shift (if not more). However, again, that is not specific for China. My wife used to work (4 months ago) in a cloth manufacturer in Mexico (making clothes for the US Sara Lee Hanes brand), and I know that people there used to work 12 hours and sometimes more.
*All rates from xe.com
people: have you heard of the labor movement and w (Score:1, Interesting)
The reason why the US and others were able to break out of the system China is in is because of several factors.
1. National strikes - not permitted in a communist china.
2. a series of major accidents that shames politicians into acting on behalf of voters. For example, a fire in a dress factory in NYC with lots of deaths got the media involved and the public reacted to the events. NYState legislature responded by passing fire codes for workplaces. Not possible in China as there are no legislatures that respond to the public and the media is state controlled.
3. Bloodletting - the strikes in America got very bloody and threatened the owners of the factories themselves.
5. the entire country of china depends on keeping labor cheap. During the US labor strife, production was local or national, there was not nearly the extent of global development there is today. Supply chains weren't that built out. Now, everything is built in four places, assembled in two and sold everywhere at once. The world would need to invent china if it didn't exist. This allows a nondemocratic government international support for keeping its system that way.