Computer Science Major Is Cool Again 328
netbuzz sends along a piece from Network World reporting that the number of computer science majors enrolled at US universities increased for the first time in six years, according to new survey data out this morning. The Taulbee Study found that the number of undergraduates signed up as computer science majors rose 8% last year. The survey was conducted last fall, just as the economic downturn started to bite. The article notes the daunting competition for positions at top universities: Carnegie Mellon University received 2,600 applications for 130 undergrad spots, and 1,400 for 26 PhD slots. "...the popularity of computer science majors among college freshmen and sophomores is because IT has better job prospects than other specialties, especially in light of the global economic downturn. ... The latest unemployment numbers for 2008 for computer software engineers is 1.6%... That's beyond full employment. ... The demand for tech jobs may rise further thanks to the Obama Administration's stimulus package, which could create nearly 1 million new tech jobs."
Cool? (Score:5, Insightful)
the popularity of computer science majors among college freshmen and sophomores is because IT has better job prospects than other specialties
How does that make it cool? It sounds more like desperation.
RTFA (Score:3, Insightful)
These ain't programmers, nor are they REAL "Software Engineers", the article writers are throwing Project Managers and Software Architects into the mix to get their numbers:
In other words, for the type of *real programmer* who isn't on a team and does everything from Requirements Gathering to QA (and everything in between) your job is STILL threatened by outsourcing. But the schools have finally figured that out, so instead of teaching basic concepts like data mining and programming, they're teaching people to be managers right out of the box. Dilbert Principle, here we come.
engineering (Score:5, Insightful)
Now that the financial industry is in shambles (what do they produce, again?) the only way to make bank without sacrificing the 8 to 12 years of your youth to med school or law school is engineering. And since most people are now familiar with computers, software engineering seems more accessible.
This makes perfect sense. Engineers make more money than any other Bachelors degrees can get you. Many students don't realize that it is damn hard to get an engineering degree compared to other degrees, though. At least, that's true of good colleges.
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Insightful)
Data mining is not a basic principle, and programming is to computer science what algebra is to mathematics.
Oy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Harsha says computer science majors are critical for the U.S. economy because their training provides them with computational thinking and problem solving skills that they can deploy in any industry.
So does: physics, chemistry, engineering, math, accounting....
"The primary reason for the downturn in computer science majors was the erroneous fear that everything was being outsourced to India, which we know is not true," says Prof. Jerry Luftman, executive director of the School of Technology Management at Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, N.J.
Really? Tell that to IBM. [businessinsider.com]
The lobbying group TechAmerica says computer software engineering and computer systems design are the fastest-growing high tech jobs, even in the fourth quarter of 2008.
Who is this "TechAmerica"? The lobbying group TechAmerica says computer software engineering and computer systems design are the fastest-growing high tech jobs, even in the fourth quarter of 2008. Oh, I see. So, corps want more H1-Bs, I take it and they're setting up the public opinion to be more open to it in these troubling times.
The whole article keeps mentioning "IT","IT","IT" and only once did they say something mobile devices. I wish they would say exactly what area of IT is booming.
This article is nothing but fluff.
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Insightful)
"In other words, for the type of *real programmer* who isn't on a team and does everything from Requirements Gathering to QA (and everything in between) your job is STILL threatened by outsourcing."
What sort of a real programmer isn't on a team these days?
Any serious sized project has a team. And believe me, good software engineers are still very sought after.
Good luck with that. (Score:4, Insightful)
Picking a major, especially an intensive one like CS, based on current employment statistics, that is.
time for my rant again (Score:5, Insightful)
I love learning but am sick of institutionalized education. The problem is the right way to do education is incredibly expensive, incredibly time-consuming, but if we had proper priorities as a society, would be seen as completely worth it. At this point, only idiots or saints would go into a career in education. There's no money in it, and I'm not talking about enough money to become a rich bastard, I'm talking about enough money to avoid poverty.
I'm not quite sure what the right solution is yet but I'm wondering if it might not be a good idea to start on the Young Lady's Primer. We've certainly made some advancements on the sort of technology that would be required.
Re:Cool? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cool? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cool? (Score:3, Insightful)
From TFS:
the popularity of computer science majors among college freshmen and sophomores is because IT has better job prospects than other specialties
How does that make it cool? It sounds more like desperation.
Exactly.
What's worse, is that computer science is not relevant for most IT positions. Unless you are programming, but those jobs are the smallest slice of the IT pie.
Those kids would be better off at a trade school or VoTech learning networking, systems administration, etc.
Next winter you can expect to see an article alerting us to a sudden surge in CS majors who are switching or dropping out & going to IT tech schools.
It's a fairly predictable cycle.
Re:engineering (Score:4, Insightful)
Who said anything about math? Scientific computing, including math-related stuff, is not what's driving software engineering employment. It's the ability to produce software which helps business that's driving the hiring. This means "pure" programming, yes, but also HCI, communication, design, testing methodology... there's a lot more to producing software than just programming.
Re:Uh, no it's not. Never was. Never will be. (Score:5, Insightful)
So glad I didn't do CS (Score:4, Insightful)
I have been programming since I was 8 years old (made a kick ass dog racing game in 2nd grade), but decided to be a philosophy major at UCLA instead of a CS major. The best decision I ever made. My philosophy training (I specialized in formal logic theory) has helped my programming more than any CS class would have. A good programmer needs to be able to teach themselves, or they will be obsolete almost immediately. Learning how to use logic and transform abstract human concepts into a formal logic representation is the true base skill for programmers.
It worked out for me.... 4 years removed from graduation, I have a great programming job that I love, making excellent money, and happy as can be.
Translation - (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Cool? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes CS CAN be IT, is there an easier way to do it? Oh hell ya. But you miss out on so much. Vo-tech is outdated in 5 years...BSCS well that hasnt changed in what...40-50 years?
Re:To nitpick (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. In a Venn diagram of who would benefit the most from a simpler tax code and those who are in the position to make that a reality, there's a tiny bit of overlap with maybe two dudes in it.
H-1B visas aren't the problem, you are (Score:2, Insightful)
IIRC, Microsoft is the largest H-1B employer in the United States. Microsoft has publicly (and repeatedly) stated that they do not maintain separate salary tracks for their foreign employees - that is, they pay foreigners the exact same amount they could pay someone born in the United States.
Payroll statistics are made available to the DHS/USCIS and these statistics corroborate Microsoft's statements.
So, now that you understand that there isn't some great demon lurking across the border waiting to devour your jobs and your womenfolk, you have the opportunity (and, from your outburst, the free time) to investigate why Americans aren't as competitive in the same jobs as someone from another country.
Here's a hint: it might start with the fact that you automatically blame others for your own problems.
Re:The Problem with New CS/IT Grads (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with new CS/IT grads is that they mostly do not know how to design software or even how a computer works at a basic level. In the last ten or more years most of these computer science majors are familiar with Java but know no assembly and very little C and have more training in Web design than in systems analysis.
We have a winner!
I'm currently in my second year of CS undergrad, and the sheer number of people who bitch constantly about having to use pointers, manual memory allocation, C, and assembly in our school's "Architecture and Assembly" class absolutely astounds me. People seem to figure that if they know Java they're a programmer and that if they know discrete mathematics on top of Java it makes them a computer scientist. For someone who spent his early years messing about with pointers and in-line assembly to make his graphics demos run, it creates that nasty frustrating feeling of having extraordinary expertise that nobody acknowledges.
Computer Science has always been cool (Score:2, Insightful)
and will always be. It is not, however, always popular. To the extent CS attracts people who are not interested in Computers, or Science, but only better employment prospects, that is a shame. Why can't they study MIS or art history or something?
Re:Uh, no it's not. Never was. Never will be. (Score:3, Insightful)
One bright young spark was emphatic that he was going to do IT and become rich - IT, he said, was only going to continue growing. Fair enough. But this was 1998, and by the time he graduated in 2002, the dot-com bubble was over and suddenly employment opportunities for CSIT people were much more scarce.
I, on the other hand, chose my degree not on the basis of its potential remuneration, but solely because I loved engineering (of the non-software kind) and I wanted to spend my life building cool shit. I wonder how many people signed up for IT expecting to be Bill Gates, only to find that they were condemned to spend their time developing webpages for the local kennel club.
Seriously, kids - a job that makes scads of money may never come your way, but it's not hard to get a job that brings you happiness and satisfaction. If you get a job that you truly enjoy, you'll never work again.
Hell, I spent my day putting together RC helicopters to make robots of out - I can't believe they PAY me to do that.
Re:Cool? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why?? (Score:2, Insightful)
Why would anyone pick up a CS degree to become an IT guy? It seems like complete overkill. I'm doing CS and Comp Engr and I know for a fact that that is exactly what I _don't_ want to do.
Re:Cool? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have looked at the average person that enlists in the Army. Have you? Sure, there's some amount of falling for a recruiter's sales pitch, but there's a lot of deliberate decisions to make one's life better through self improvement. Self improvement is rarely anyone's first choice, but neither is it a sign of desperation! I've also looked at the average person who thinks "work" is some sort of scam invented by "the man", and I far prefer the company of the average person that enlists in the Army!
Re:So glad I didn't do CS (Score:3, Insightful)
"Learning how to use logic and transform abstract human concepts into a formal logic representation is the true base skill for programmers."
Which is why we teach it to freshmen. Sadly, most of them find the subject so difficult they sell their book and try their hardest to forget they ever knew it. I've literally had Computer Engineering friends tell me that logic started at 0 and ended at 1. Nothing more complicated than that should exist, he asserted.
Re:Unemployment? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd far rather have someone from another country here doing the work here than just having the work go to another country.
Don't think it can't happen.
Re:The Problem with New CS/IT Grads (Score:3, Insightful)
These grads will need C and Assembly approximately never.
Those of us who work on embedded systems beg to differ.
Re:Cool? (Score:5, Insightful)
Studying art (and literature and film etc.) may actually help make you interesting to people who are outside your field of specialization. Heck, I even find people in my field of specialization boring if that's all they know.
Re:Cool? (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of the people who are in the US military - about 40,000 - aren't even US citizens. Clearly, they aren't motivated by patriotism (at least not patriotism of their home nations.) They are serving another country with the hopes of joining it, because they are desperate to become US residents.
The people who are being targeted in inner city recruitment centers consider the Army because they lack a lot of other options.
This is about the enlisted ranks: officer commissions are a different matter entirely, and US military officers are, indeed, usually very accomplished. But for the enlisted ranks, you are in denial if you think that much, even most, recruitment isn't essentially a business proposition, a quid-pro-quo, usually directed to people with few other viable choices.
Re:Unemployment? (Score:3, Insightful)
The United States was built and paid for with the blood, sweat, tears, and even the lives of immigrants. Ninety-nine percent of every citizen's great grandparents, great-great grandparents etc. came to the U.S. from another country. Personally, I think we should welcome talented and hard working people in to the U.S., naturalize them, and make them pay income taxes like everyone else.
Now the thing about H-1B visa holders is that they do pay taxes, and they contribute to our nation's economy. There are countless numbers of problems in the modern-day United States. A good example is the number of people who expect a handout, and abuse the welfare system. A better example is giving hand-outs to multi-national banks and corporations. Some of these banks and companies are guilty of outright fraud; others should have known better before signing off on questionable credit lines, loans, and mortgages. Yet the worst are companies who cannot learn to compete on a global scale with Japan, North Korea, and China. Instead, our government throws away the peoples' tax dollars, giving it out to these companies whom never learned their lessons from their failures. Most of them probably have not even changed their business strategies and business models to better compete globally, it is business as usual.
You may see H-1B visa holders as a problem, but in reality, it is a step in the right direction to competing in a global market. Illegal immigrants are not really a problem either, many of them provide a service doing hard manual labor that no American would do for the same pay. The REAL problem with illegal immigrant workers is income tax and minimum wage. Do away with minimum wage and tax immigrant workers, and that problem is solved. Some on the left side of the political fence may think this cruel and unusual, but that would be a truly free market for jobs. At least illegal immigrant workers do not expect a freaking handout, because they feel entitled to an easy job with great pay and benefits.
You on the other hand, born in the U.S.A. and for some reason you feel entitled to a good paying job with great benefits. Why?
Re:Cool? (Score:3, Insightful)
'... but for most coders doing business apps, a few programming classes are all that is needed.'
Yes, and we all know how reliable, secure, and performant business apps are. :)
(Sorry, I'm always most cynical this early