Your Commuting Costs By Car Vs. Train? 1137
grepdisc writes "Newspapers in Boston are fawning over a report by the American Public Transportation Association that taking public transportation saves money over driving. How can one possibly save $12,600 per year, when the inflated estimates of 15,000 miles per year at only 23.4 miles and $2.039 per gallon costs only $1,310, and a high parking rate of $460 per month results in under $5600. Is the discrepancy made up of tolls, repairs, the cost of buying a car and ignoring train station parking fees?" Everyone's situation is different — and it's easy to have a chip on one's shoulder while estimating prices. But for those of you with the option, what kind of savings do you find (or would you expect) from taking one form of transport to work over another?
Err, forgetting some things much? (Score:4, Informative)
Owning a car costs far more than just your monthly loan payment. I had an old piece of junk which cost me just $1000 a year in insurance since I did not need comprehensive. My guess is that you're looking at least at $2000-3000 a year in insurance alone for a standard newish car (banks require comprehensive for anything they have a loan out for). Add to that a monthly payment for the car of say $300-400, which gives a total of $4000-5000 a year, and you're easily at the $12,600 estimate.
Gothenburg, Sweden (Score:5, Informative)
I pay about 500 USD per year for free public transport 24/7 in my city. According to this Swedish checklist [familjeekonomi.se], the yearly cost for purchasing and owning a 10 year old tiny car would be about 3750 USD, thus, I save 3250 USD. If I would get a new car, the savings would be around 7100 USD.
(since I don't have or need a car, I will of course have to take the purchasing price into account.)
I live just outside Boston (Score:4, Informative)
and I have to commute in every day. Here's a breakdown, as I did each for two years apiece:
- Drive to local T stop: $5/day parking plus ~$60 for T pass, plus gas.
- Drive and park at work: $240/mo plus gas. I would drive about 15k/yr (work plus other driving)
- Drive 1 mi to bus stop: donation to local church to park in their lot (few hundred/yr), $64 for T/bus pass. In the 2.5 years I've been taking the bus, I've driven about 15,000 mi.
Now taking the bus takes a bit longer, but my employer is nice enough to allow me to work from home one day a week, and I often fall asleep or do work while on the bus, as opposed to getting peeved at the traffic around me.
YMMV. As for me, I'll keep taking the bus.
NJ to Manhattan data point (Score:3, Informative)
I don't pay for parking at the bus stop.
In Chicago...but other places... (Score:2, Informative)
Downtown is more nuts. Two hour Parking is 3.00- all day can run between 7-20 depending on the place. So- working in downtown, it would save TONS of money.
When I lived in LA - I litterally paid $600 for 8 months of parking. It averages to about 9 dollars a day. Even if you were a patient in the hospital, if you had a car there- it was 9 dollars a day. Ouch. Public transit was the way to go.
But- when I lived in Baton Rouge Louisiana the public transportation was nil. It took hours to get anywhere, and it didn't necessarily travel through the whole city. So- you really HAD to have a car... public transportation was very inconsistent, and it took forever. Just time lost I think makes up for the expenses of a car. Parking was basically free everywhere except a few places. But, there was always some backlot to park in. A 20 minute car ride turning into a 2 hour bus trip that may or may not be on time... its risky at best.
Overall, its really the location. Big metro areas with well established transportation, it can be a wonderful thing. It does save money. But other places, it ends up being way much of a hassle, and time consuming and may not go to the locations that someone needs.
Tax numbers (Score:2, Informative)
IRS is giving 55 cents/mile, so one has to assume that's a generic "operating cost" of a car (gas, depreciation, maintenance).
0.55 * 15000 + 460 * 12 = $13770
So, close enough for government work.
YMMV, of course.
Not everyone has access to transit (Score:4, Informative)
Don't forget about those of us in rural areas. I carpool with a friend as often as I can, but I live 30 miles from my workplace. No one is going to be running a train from a city of 250 to a city of 10,000, so personal transportation is the only option.
Re:What about time? (Score:1, Informative)
What about time is correct. Taking public transit takes much longer then driving. Walk to the bus station, wait for the bus, wait while the bus makes all of its stops, and drives surface streets instead of the highway. Transfer from the first bus to the second bus. Finally walk from the station to my building. I'm exhasted and I havn't even started work yet. To boot, Do this in reverse at the end of the day!
This easily wastes hours of my day, every day. I get paid around $40 per hour for my time. This equates to a LOSS of over $20,000 every year.
Re:Some More Numbers (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What about time? (Score:3, Informative)
The biggest problem I've seen with these sorts of studies is that they really don't consider realistic decisions from the perspective of the consumer. Even if I bicycle to work 75% of the time, I NEED a car for the occasional long trip, and foul weather. Maybe I need a SECOND car for my wife, for the exact same reason. Now I have a sunk cost of the car, maintenance, and insurance. Suddenly, public transportation is only saving me the marginal cost of fuel, which really isn't much in the big picture.
Re:Some More Numbers (Score:1, Informative)
In DC, the metro is very reliable and it even tells you when the next train is coming via electronic display signs.
On the weekends the trains run until 3:00 AM.
I have no idea what you mean by "Transferring is almost out of the question" Where are you trying to transfer to? The moon?
I think you should get your facts straight.
The NYC subways station has the longest track length in the country at ~225 miles of track. But DC is in a three way tie for second with the bart and the CTA. All three have about ~100 to ~110 miles of track. All three systems, do a very good job of covering the terrain. NYC subway is an exception, probably because it is the oldest in the country.
My biggest complaint with DC transport is that the metro is expensive. But there are many reasons for that. I also wish bus service would be improved. IMHO, CTA's bus lines are very good and I wish DC was at that level.
Would you like some cheese while you wait 15 minutes for the next metro?
Google Maps to calculate costs (Score:5, Informative)
Google Maps will help you calculate the cost of public transit vs. driving. After you map out your commute. Just click on the public transit button. About half way down it will show you a public transit vs. driving comparison.
Re:What about time? (Score:4, Informative)
We tried it in the UK. Privately owned railway systems have proved much more expensive and not neccesarily any better than the fully nationalised British Rail that went before it.
They do have some prettier looking trains now though...
Re:Motorcycles... (Score:1, Informative)
Being in the UK, I'm not so fortunate with petrol (gas) costs but...time! In a car, my 19 mile commute takes 2 hours as I'm traveling into Edinburgh from the sticks. On the motorcycle it takes 30 minutes maximum with lane-splitting nearly all the way (splitting being 'legal' in the sense that the police completely ignore it unless you're being a total pillock).
3 hours extra per day for my own stuff is gold, recommended!
Re:Well time means I drive myself (Score:3, Informative)
First...I live in the Atlanta outer suburbs and you are a fool if you leave any property unlocked. I live on 15 acres where I can still use firearms, and stuff disappears overnight.
Public transit does not work for those of us out here though. Drive 6 miles to a regional bus station that only drops me downtown. Take the train back uptown, catch a bus to the area where I work. My schedule is shifted to late morning - early evening, so the bus does not run past a certain street. Get off and walk a mile. Takes about 2 - 3 hours to commute and $5 in fares.
I drive it in 45 minutes. No parking, 20-21 mpg, so about $50 in gas a week currently. We have a farm, so I would still have to own a vehicle or two. I do value my time, though I would take transit if it were more convenient. I imagine reading, working with my laptop, all sorts of things. I stopped driving aggressively, so I do manage to solve programming problems in my head going down the highway. More soothing than trying to wring another minute or two out of my commute. Plus with speeding, mpg drops to 16-17. Adds up over the course of a year.
I lived in town for 18 years and was never a victim of crime. Out here, I keep the guns loaded.
Here's one Boston area person's computation.... (Score:3, Informative)
I live about 22 miles outside of Cambridge, where I have often worked. So that is 44 miles/day@ $.5 per mile (U.S. government reimbursement). Your actual costs will vary; but the government rate isn't far from reality. Parking is about $20/day in Cambridge; sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the lot.
$5500 - Mileage
$5000 - Parking
Round numbers for automobile commute: $10,500
Note that there are hidden costs of road maintenance, etc.
Additionally, it is my time; on the commuter rail, at least I get (at least) an hour of my time back.
$2400/year - Commuter rail ticket (also covers unlimited subway use)
$1500/year - Mileage to train station.
Commuter rail commute is therefore about $3900, before any tax breaks (or lower auto insurance rate, due to less mileage and lower theft rates).
Savings for me (excluding tax break and insurance break) was about $6-7K/year.
Comparison (Score:3, Informative)
White River Junction, VT to Stamford, CT:
Amtrak: $59
gas for car: $19
QED
Living in Adelaide (Score:2, Informative)
There are other reasons, but I think I've made my point. Even when we factor in the costs of owning our car (insurance, registration, etc), it is cheaper to drive to work. Even if we didn't drive to work, we'd need a car anyway. And even if it wasn't cheaper to drive, it would be worth the additional cost to save my sanity. The drive is pleasant and quick, the car is warm in winter and cool in summer, I get to listen to whatever music I like, and I'm guaranteed a seat every morning.
If the state government here wants us to be greener (I can only assume that they don't), here's some advice: upgrade your public transport. We pay enough for it.
Re:Some More Numbers (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Some More Numbers (Score:4, Informative)
my Math, in Toronto (Score:4, Informative)
Public: TTC, $2.75 each way. I can get a monthly pass for $105. Assume worst: $2.75 each way, 7 days a week.
Car: 2002 Honda Civic, bought used, $10,000, to be paid over 5 years ($2120 yr) or $5.80 day.
Car insurance: We're old, so we only pay about $500 year, about $1.36 a day.
Car Maintenance averages $800 year (tires, brakes, etc. etc.) about $2.19 a day
distance: 6 miles each way.
Gas mileage on car: in city, 24 mpg.
Gas price: $0.85 per liter, roughly = $3.25 gallon, so Cost in gas to drive downtown each day: ~$1.66
Parking downtown = $8 day. (She has a good lot)
So, per day: Car loan: $5.80
Insurance: $1.36
Maintain: $2.19
Cost Gas: $1.66
Parking: $8.00
---------------------
total per day: 19.01 per day.
x 365 = $6938.65 total cost per year for commuting.
total cost per year for TTC: 365 x (2 x 2.75)= $2007.50
Difference? Almost $5000.
RS
Train is cheaper, costs a lot more in time. (Score:1, Informative)
I'm in a fairly unique situation. I live one mile from the train station. My employer also has a train stop on site, with a second opening next year for a new rail line. My employer gets a discounted rate of $38 for a year long rail pass, which covers all trains and buses for both Dallas and Fort Worth.
I can ride a bicycle to the train station, which costs about 20 bucks a year in maintenance(tires, bearings, etc). So it would cost less than $60 per year for me to take public transportation.
A couple months ago, a friend of mine was hired on at my job and we have been car pooling since. We alternate weeks. So at 20mpg in my truck and 40 miles round trip, I burn about 10 gallons at $2/gallon. Also there are $1.40 in tolls each day. $27 every other week, so $702/year not including oil, tires and stuff that I feel is just part of owning a automobile. Even if you're not putting the miles on, those things still need to be checked/replaced. I'm not even going to mention the money saved by not owning a vehicle, because that's just not going to fly in Dallas.
The deciding factor for me is time.
In order to make it to my office by train at 7:30am, I must get up at 5am to leave by 5:45am to catch the train by 6am. Then I must transfer trains once and take a shuttle on campus from the train stop to my office. On the return trip, I have to wait for the first shuttle at 4:45pm to catch the first train by 5pm to catch the second at 5:30pm and make it to the train station at 6:15pm and ride home by 6:30pm.
In order to make it to work by 7:30 via car pooling, I must get up at 6am to meet my friend at 6:50 at my side walk, then take the HOV lane most of the way. The return trip is generally the same, but we usually burn a couple minutes saying our good-byes and wrapping up. So leave by 4:40pm and home by 5:10pm.
So, unless I were able to generate revenue by writing a novel or charge those hours to my job as part of my work day, It's hard for me to justify an extra 10 hours a week to save $13.50 in gas and tolls.
Lost in translation... (Score:4, Informative)
The problem here isn't that these newspapers are fawning over this report. The problem is that the point of the report has been mangled by incompetent journalists. The original report is about replacing your car with public transportation, not just your work commute. That's why they end up using 15000 miles (which is absurdly high for an average commute but much more reasonable for a total year of family driving).
I do find the parking rate high but, then again, my commute is the reverse (from the city into the suburbs) and my company has free parking. Even if it would be more reasonable to assume for a lower parking cost, $2.039 is absurdly low for gas (here in the Chicago area, things are up to around $2.50 from a previous low of about $2.19 at the cheapest gas stations).
Re:depends (Score:5, Informative)
Are you serious?
Population density
Gee I wonder why paris has public transportation and Sacramento doesnt?
Tax Subsidies (Score:3, Informative)
The personal cost of public transportation cannot be compared directly to private transportation costs. Political decisions, along with federal, state and local tax subsidies determine the cost of public transportation. For some people public transportation is free (e.g. NYC school children). For those who can't use public transportation but are taxed for it, the cost per mile is infinite.
In 2002 federal transit subsidies were over $7.3 billion dollars. This works out to a subsidy of about 12 cents a mile for every passenger. In NYC, Washington DC, Chicago and Boston the amounts are much higher. On the other hand, the net federal subsidy to highway passenger transportation was negative as a result of gas taxes and tolls.
Re:Err, forgetting some things much? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:depends (Score:2, Informative)
I commute 5 hours a day to work! (Score:3, Informative)
My travel to work (it's not called "commuting", because then you're not paid for it), consists of taking Amtrak from a town 20 minutes drive from my house, 2.5 hours into Penn Station in NYC, working 5+ hours, and then back on the train 2.5 hours back home.
I spend (out of pocket) about $16k/year on this travel alone... which I can *NOT* expense. I can't expense my WWAN card that I use on the train while I work (I'm typing this while heading back home right now on that very train), I can't expense my DSL at home for the days when I DO telecommute, and I can't even expense my cellphone, which I use for calls while in-transit.
Driving my personal vehicle would certainly be more expensive, take longer and ratchet up my stress levels to very high levels, so I take the train... and I suck it up. I live 143 miles from my work, each way.
If I didn't accept this job, and this travel and this distance, I'd be living out of a cardboard box in a public park. Literally.
Going the opposite way (Score:3, Informative)
I recently bought a motorbike and stopped using the train so can present a single data point on how much costs increase.
I paid $110/month for a train ticket. However I'd often have to work late and then use a combination of busses and taxis (or very long walks) to get home. As a result I ended up spending around an extra $20/month even though I had a monthly train pass. Total cost then was around $1500/year.
I now pay approx $10/week for petrol and approx $120/quarter for servicing (yes, that means servicing is costing the same as petrol). That's roughly $1000/year. There's about $200 extra in insurance too, and interest on the purchase price is also around $200/year. So in total I'm now spending about $1400/year, a saving of $1500.
Curiously, the bike has saved me a lot less time than I anticipated. The trip takes around 50 minutes by train (including walking) and around 40 mintues by motorbike (including putting gear on/away).
However it's greatly simplified things, I can work late or get delayed on my way out the door without incident. The train's occasional break-downs/delays don't affect me now either - my bike is much more reliable.
Winter on the bike hasn't been the most pleasant, especially heading home in the dark when it's raining and cold and it started making me wish I was in a nice air-conditioned car. So I worked out the approximate cost of 'upgrading'.
It was a lot - I would have to pay roughly five times as much in repayments, roughly three times as much in fuel, and I'd have to start paying for parking. I estimated the total cost at roughly $6k extra (though a far cry from the article's $20k).
There's non financial issues to take into account too... Trains are safter than cars, which are safer than bikes. Trains allow you to read during your commute. Trains and cars keep you dry and warm. That's one data point, YMMV
Re:depends (Score:3, Informative)
To answer for the GP, modern bus systems have bike racks on the front bumper that people can load and unload their bikes onto quickly.
Presumably, the GP didn't feel like biking both ways initially, so took his bike to the bus stop and loaded it on the bus and took it to work, so he could ride it home.
Re:depends (Score:2, Informative)
The situation here in Denver, Colorado is similar. The light rail system we've just recently put into place passes mostly affluent communities and downtown. Communities that were mostly middle class are now becoming upper middle and upper class communities as properties rise in value relative to surrounding areas. Proximity to a light rail station can raise your rent a couple hundred dollars.
Denver has undergone massive amounts of gentrification over the last few years so the inner city transportation systems are all benefiting those who don't really need it, namely well off families with multiple cars.
However, there is a silver lining I believe. After the first light rail line was built it didn't take long for it to be extended and other rail lines planned. As the more affluent citizens become accustomed to riding the train I believe that future ballot initiatives trying to get things like the I-70 rail system(proposed system going from Denver International Airport to most of our popular ski resorts, passing through Denver along the way) working will be easier to pass.
I do not get rail service from where I work and live to my university, so I ride the bus as much as possible. I get a public transportation pass with my campus fees so I try and use that rather than paying around $5 for parking on campus. The crappy thing is that my regular bus runs through el barrio(mexican ghetto) and there's quite the cast of characters, so I try and catch the express bus from a park and ride. The express is very limited on time however, so if I plan to stay late I drive.
Re:depends (Score:4, Informative)
Since those extra minutes would come out of the time I spend with my family, I would consider them stolen, not wasted.
Wait until your kids get a bit older, then you will consider that hour long commute to be welcome peace and quiet :)
Re:depends (Score:5, Informative)
I lived in Germany for 3 years when I was in the Air Force and the bus and rail systems were wonderful. But thats what? 85 million people in a country not much bigger than Oregon?
That's not really looking at the big picture though... Public Transportation over most of Europe is equally as excellent as here in Germany (not QUITE in some places, but still far better than other parts of the world I've lived in). Taking in Europe as a whole, the size of the place isn't nearly as much of an argument anymore - if the US states ran public transportation like European countries do, it'd work much better.
People seemed to come in clumps making public transportation easier.
I'll definitely grant you that. Something I can never quite fathom when I visit the US is how hard it is to really be "in the middle of nowhere" (which, by my definition, means no people around). Here in Germany, there's people pretty much everywhere, but if you do go somewhere where there isn't anyone, you really are alone. In the US, it always sort of felt like there might be a house somewhere if you just walk over a hill or two. I've also lived in Australia, which has the mind boggling expanses of absolute nothing and some pretty serious "clumping" going on around the coasts.
Then there is the crime. I never, ever, felt unsafe on a bus or train in Germany.
Yep - that's something I definitely love here. "Random" violent crime is very low (muggings, street violence, etc - domestic violence is similar to other parts of the world though, so that's nothing special unfortunately).
On the actual topic though, even here in Germany, I'd pay more to take public transport to work than drive. Only because of my exact circumstances though - for most people it'd be the other way around. I live in the middle of a city, with an U-Bahn stop pretty much right outside my door, but to get to work I can either drive 8km, or take the U-Bahn, followed a bus. U-Bahn alone would be cheap, bus alone would be cheap, but U-Bahn plus bus would be slightly more than I pay for keeping my car running (especially since it's such a short drive). I do make heavy use of the U-Bahn for other journeys though like heading to friend's houses, coming home drunk late at night when I can't be bothered walking home, etc. For mid-distance journeys (within Germany) I generally take the train, and for long distance, I mostly fly, so other than the 8km trip between home and work, I don't use my car much at all in normal day-to-day life (I do like doing "road trips" though, so maybe a couple of times a year, I might do a several thousand km drive somewhere, so I definitely wouldn't give up the car even if my work circumstances were different... that's a matter of doing something I enjoy though, not convenience or cost (it'd be easier and cheaper to fly to most of the places that I go on these sorts of road trips))
Re:depends (Score:3, Informative)
I'm reading it at work. People actually read slashdot at home, on their time? For the love of god...
Re:Insurance? (Score:3, Informative)
Even if one can commute to and from work on public transit, one still needs a car:
I don't own a car, and neither do any of my friends (and we could all easily afford a used car, and most of us could afford a new car).
to carry home a week's worth of groceries for the family or other large loads,
Well, none of us have a family, which helps.
When I was taking the train to work every day, I'd often shop twice a week. The supermarket is about 30 seconds walk from the station. This is good for getting fresh bread and vegetables too. Sometimes I'd load up on heavy stuff (fruit juice etc) -- as much as I could carry -- and walk 100m to the bus stop, and wait for the specific bus that stopped outside my house. It would be convenient to load up a car with beer for a party, but I could either get this delivered, use a taxi, or ask people to bring their own beer to the party.
Now I cycle to work, so I stop by the supermarket on my way home once a week.
If I had to shop for four, and was determined not to own a car, I'd either have stuff delivered or buy a bike trailer. More likely, I'd register to use the local on-street rental cars (StreetCar).
to go places that public transit doesn't go, such as out of town
The transport continues out of town here. If I'm really seeing someone in the absolute middle of nowhere, they can pick me up from the nearest station (and will probably expect to). Or I'll take my bike on the train and cycle for 10 minutes at the end.
to go at times when public transit is not in service, such as nights, Saturday evenings, Sundays, or major holidays [fwcitilink.com].
So far, needing to go when there's no public transport isn't enough reason for me to get my own car (transport within the city runs all night, but the middle-of-nowhere stuff doesn't, but I hardly ever need it).
Re:depends (Score:5, Informative)
I lived in Oregon for a long time and definitely, even in rural places you can't make it 20 miles without seeing at least 1 farm house, even when you're in the desert of eastern oregon.
As for public transportation, Portland Oregon had it right. Light rails + very good bus system. This allows the speed of the train to be combined with the flexibility of useful bus routes.
Lightrail alone isn't useful, I wish more people would realise that.
Re:depends (Score:3, Informative)
That's not really looking at the big picture though... Public Transportation over most of Europe is equally as excellent as here in Germany (not QUITE in some places, but still far better than other parts of the world I've lived in). Taking in Europe as a whole, the size of the place isn't nearly as much of an argument anymore - if the US states ran public transportation like European countries do, it'd work much better.
How do you figure that size isn't an argument? Europe has well more than twice the population of the USA in roughly the same land area.
Europe [wikipedia.org]: 731,000,000 people in 10,180,000 sq. km (71.8 people per sq. km)
USA [wikipedia.org]: 306,374,000 people in 9,826,630 sq. km (31.2 people per sq. km)
Adjust for the 'clumping' factor and the cost/viability of your system tanks. Adding up the population of the 10 largest US cities, I only get 25 million people. Add in maybe another 15 million for smaller cities, and you've still got over 265 million people who live in an area not well served by any commonly used type of mass transit system.
My home town, which was actually several small towns next to each other, was a 15 minute drive from the nearest reasonable 'city,' with adequate stores for shopping, etc. We had a grocery store and a few small shops, but that was it. It was a 40 minute drive to anything I'd really consider a city (Albany, NY [wikipedia.org]). Industry was mostly located around Albany, but was spread out among all of the smaller towns which surrounded it. The most sensible system I've come up with, cost-wise, would be roughly centralized station-to-station buses between towns. So, I'd have to take a minimum 40 minute bus ride from my home town to Albany, another bus to the appropriate town there (15 minutes), then another bus to my final destination (10 minutes). Assuming perfect timing all around (yeah, right) and a 5ish minute wait for each. You're looking at a 1.5 hour trip to work. Worse, it would only take a handful of buses to accommodate the commuters from my hometown, which means they can't run those buses all day. So we're left with a minimum 1.5 hour commute and a bunch of workers who can only move during designated 'commute' hours.
So really, it certainly would be desirable to have good mass transit in the US, and there might be a feasible way to do it, but nobody's figured it out yet (outside of major urban centers).
People seemed to come in clumps making public transportation easier.
I'll definitely grant you that. Something I can never quite fathom when I visit the US is how hard it is to really be "in the middle of nowhere" (which, by my definition, means no people around).
Not to sound like I'm blindly contradicting everything you've said, but...
It's certainly possible to be away from people in the USA. If you had trouble, then you weren't in the right places. Probably your issue there is that 'middle of nowhere' in Germany is much, much closer (geographically) to 'city' than in the USA. We tend to have much more of a gray area in between.