Submitting a review for consideration is easy; please first read Slashdot's book review guidelines. Updated: 2008114 by samzenpus
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.
Well . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well . . . (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Well . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
My thoughts about this award is that it makes it quite clear that the average person posting on slashdot does not know anything about law. If you read slashdot, you'd think that there would have been no possibility of RIAA winning because they are incompetent idiots without a clue.
Apparently not.
Note to self: don't depend on /. for legal news.
Parent
Re:Well . . .Here's How (Score:5, Insightful)
All they had to do was find 12 citizens just like themselves.
Parent
Re:Well . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's fairly clear she was guilty. There was some doubt, but I'm not surprised she was found guilty at all.
I am surprised at the amount. I figured it would be reduced to be more reasonable. My big problem with all this is the damages. $18,000 per song is 900 CD sales per song at $20 a CD.
For simple infingement (not intentional theft) I could see $100 a song, or $250 a song. But $18,000 is ludicrous.
I was hoping the damages would be overturned as bankruptingly high and unconstitutional. I was hoping we'd get a precedent of vague reasonableness in this kind of thing.
Nope.
But the guilty verdict? Unsurprising.
Parent
Re:Well . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
For simple infingement (not intentional theft) I could see $100 a song, or $250 a song. But $18,000 is ludicrous.
Well, it's $80,000, not $18,000. However, I cannot possibly see even $100 per song as justified. As far as I know, these file sharing programs require that you distribute about the same amount of songs that you download yourself. Or, turning the argument around, the amount that others download from you is about the same as what you download, so on average any song that is made available for downloading will be downloaded _once_. Damages are at most $0.70 per song (that's what the music company makes if I download a single song from iTunes). So even if we assume without justification that these songs were downloaded from her computer ten times each, that's only $7 per song.
I always though that statutory damages are not meant as a punishment, but as a means to give the copyright holder fair compensation in situations where the actual damage is impossible to establish. So I would agree that the RIAA deserves not the amount that they can actually prove, but a reasonable estimate of the actual damages. $80,000 in damages would be Ok if we could reasonably estimate that a song was downloaded about 115,000 times from her computer. Which is ridiculous.
Parent
Re:Wrong-o (Score:5, Insightful)
Or there's another way to look at it. Thomas was caught with her pants down, she's clearly guilty, and she did everything she could to antagonize the system.
Now, put aside your views on copyright law and the "evil" the RIAA, was anything other than a pissed jury increasing the damages award ever likely to be the outcome of this case? Short of a jury of 12 Slashdot copyright infringement advocates advocating jury nullification, I can't see how any other result was ever possible.
Parent
Re:Well . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen a lot of people claim that defendents in copyright infringement cases should use NYCL. Forgive my bluntness, but do we really have any evidence that NYCL is a particularly skilled lawyer? Is he more likely to obtain a favorable verdict than the lawyers that these people are using? It seems like we're assuming that he's a good lawyer because he's on our side.
*Dons flame-retardant suit*
Parent
Re:Well . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen a lot of people claim that defend[a]nts in copyright infringement cases should use NYCL. Forgive my bluntness, but do we really have any evidence that NYCL is a particularly skilled lawyer? Is he more likely to obtain a favorable verdict than the lawyers that these people are using? It seems like we're assuming that he's a good lawyer because he's on our side.
Agreed.
Parent
Re:Well . . . (Score:5, Interesting)
Sorry if I phrased the question trollishly. I think a better way of putting it is this: If I were accused by the RIAA, do you think you'd be a good lawyer to represent me at trial. If so, what are your qualifications? I don't do much infringing anymore, so I'm unlikely to need your services, but I'd be interested in knowing.
Its my impression that you're very knowledgeable, but since I'm not a legal expert, my impressions mean nothing. Sorry if you've already gone over this.
Parent
Re:Well . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry if I phrased the question trollishly. I think a better way of putting it is this: If I were accused by the RIAA, do you think you'd be a good lawyer to represent me at trial. If so, what are your qualifications? I don't do much infringing anymore, so I'm unlikely to need your services, but I'd be interested in knowing. Its my impression that you're very knowledgeable, but since I'm not a legal expert, my impressions mean nothing. Sorry if you've already gone over this.
I don't really think it's for me to say. And I don't think your comment was trollish in the least. You were cautioning people against retaining a lawyer just based on the fact that they like him. And when I said "agreed", I meant it.
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
Artists are now forced to take time out of doing what they want to do.
Just like the rest of us who work for a living?
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Interesting)
As a recording and performing musician who is both excited by the limitless distribution and disgusted with their treatment of artists I find you personally offensive. Furthermore I also find you to be nothing more than a rhetoric spewing fool of the lowest order. I hope you choke on those party lines you parrot off mindlessly.
GTFO, troll.
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you ever tried to make a living by driving around the country doing shows? It is, after a short time, soul sucking and demeaning. But that is the only way even a great artist with fairly broad appeal can make a living in this day and age, because of morons like you.
Since when have musicians EVER made any significant living off of derivative works OTHER than performing live? Mozart did it, Elvis did it, Metallica did it. Artists have never been able to make a substantial income from record (or sheet music) sales. It wasn't until Beethoven that the idea of making money off of copies of musical works even really took off.
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
It is, after a short time, soul sucking and demeaning
So you mean... it's like... HAVING A JOB?!?!?!?!?
"Artists" who think that one weekend's work and a year or two of sacrifices and chances should allow them to live luxuriously for years after get no sympathy for me. Buck up and welcome to reality. This recession's full of it.
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the first troll post that I can sympathize with. We all know it; we are breaking the law when we download music/videos. It's just that, unlike mugging someone in the street, no one really loses out. Maybe the music execs will have to buy fewer wraps of coke. Is that such a bad thing? I don't think so.
In the end, the only winners are lawyers.
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
But it's NOT a valid perspective. I know of nobody here that says people shouldn't get paid to perform work. But that's the troll/flame that he keeps on pimping until somebody actually starts believing it. He's full of it. It is those who advocate strong copyright who want to sit on their butts and collect the rent. They are the true pirates who use guns to lock down ideas. We must not allow this to continue.
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Informative)
One sentence- Steamboat Willie is STILL under copyright! The man has been pushing up the daisies (or sitting in the freezer, whichever you prefer) for over half a fricking century, yet his FIRST work, one made when planes were made out of cloth and antibiotics were just a dream, is STILL under copyright.
Most of us here are for fair copyright. Of course most of us would consider the outright bribery of our elected officials by multinational corporations to be treasonous. The US copyright system, which is being forced down the throats of more and more nations, was a CONTRACT, nothing more. In return for a LIMITED monopoly in the form of government imposed copyrights We, The People got in return a richer and more diverse Public Domain for all of us.
But we have been robbed, and the contract broken. We, The People are no longer represented anymore, because we can't cut individual checks to bribe our own elected officials like the multinationals can. Until We, The People are once again represented at the bargaining table then ALL copyrights should be considered by the people of this country and all those who have American copyrights forced upon them null and void and completely ignored. Crooked laws created by bribed officials should be looked upon as the illegal acts that they are. Period.
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Interesting)
If you feel that you have no voice in the government, the way to change the government is not through anonymous piracy. Engage in civil protest or violent revolution -- whatever works for you. But anonymous leaching, and I mean that not only in the p2p sense, but also in the "how is an artist supposed to make a living if everything can be had free" sense, isn't going to accomplish anything. Rather, it shows "file sharers" to be "what can I get for nothing" freeloaders rather than people interested in changing our corrupt government.
As for the issues in this case, the damages are clearly excessive. Although I do believe that Jamie did the deed so to speak, and that the regular retail cost of the songs is not enough (*), $2m is more than she'll make in a lifetime. Damages should be something like 20-30% of her income for a year. That would be substantial without being ridiculously high.
(*) If maximum damages = price of song, there is no incentive, aside from one's own moral compass, to pay for content.
Parent
Re:Justifying piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it's a valid perspective?
You can say that again. Seriously, $2M for 24 files? WHAT THE FUCK?
Parent
unreasonableness? (Score:5, Funny)
$1.92M for 24 songs is unreasonable? What makes you say that?
Re:unreasonableness? (Score:5, Interesting)
According to this article [wikipedia.org], 5 billion songs were shared in 2006. That means that the music industry, if it weren't for those pesky pirates, would be raking in $400 trillion dollars more than they are right now.
I find that unlikely.
Parent
Throwing on purpose (Score:5, Interesting)
That, or massive incompetence of her defense.
Re:Throwing on purpose (Score:5, Informative)
It isn't stealing music.
The punishment for stealing music worth less than $250 retail is a class 1 misdemeanor, 6 months in jail and/or a $2500 fine.
This is copyright infringement, and it is a whole different beast than stealing.
To test this, try stealing music you've already purchased - it's impossible. But you can sure infringe on the copyright on music you have already purchased!
Parent
Let's think about this (Score:5, Insightful)
They have just judged that she should pay 1/3 more than a typical American will make in their life.
What's wrong with this picture? Clearly she would have never spent that much on music...
Something has gone seriously wrong when... (Score:5, Interesting)
She made it easy for them (Score:5, Interesting)
While it seems absolutely insane that an individual can be sued for so much for something so inconsequential, I have to say that she really made it easy to side with the RIAA.
If it weren't for her destruction of evidence and blatant perjury, the courts might be likely to have some sympathy for her. Instead, she insulted the courts in a way that made Hans Reiser look well grounded. It was obvious to anyone following the trial that she was the one sharing the files, and while she didn't need to volunteer that information necessarily, the deliberate obfuscation (returned hard drives, etc.) put her on the wrong side of the line.
I think this is a terrible precedent that was set, but really, I'm not surprised. The RIAA, of course, will never see their money, but then Jammie Thomas will never own a material possession again, either, so I guess it's even.
Re:She made it easy for them (Score:5, Interesting)
No, she can't. As I understand it, the amount is too large for her to be eligible for Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Further, this type of civil damages generally cannot be waived through Chapter 7, but even if it could be, a Chapter 7 would mean liquidating her assets. She would literally walk away with nothing but the clothes on her back.
Short of somehow convincing a judge to allow her to dismiss this debt by filing Chapter 7, her only option, AFAIK, is to let the RIAA garnish her wages to the maximum extent allowable by law (25% of her income) for the rest of her life, then take all of her assets upon her death. In effect, she would be reduced to near indentured servitude by this verdict. We might as well have debtors' prisons. There's really little difference when faced with a civil judgment of this magnitude.
Parent
A Little Perspective (Score:5, Informative)
Assuming a price of $15 per album, the defendant could have stolen 128,000 CDs and resold them and it would have been less damage than what they are collecting for two dozen songs.
$2M? (Score:5, Interesting)
$2M for 24 songs? Sounds like jury tampering.
$80,000 is awesome (Score:5, Funny)
So all I have to do is, twice a year write an awful song, then get someone to put it up on a torrent and that's worth $160,000 right? That's a freaking awesome alternate reality! I can live like a king for playing guitar badly a couple of times a year!
By that kind of accounting, I'm worth billions. Boat salesmen will knock. Bikini clad women will swoon. I can have any car I like!
Tell the truth now, you're just trying to outdo the British, aren't you? They only used to send their convicts to Australia for a dozen years for stealing a loaf of bread. You'd ruin people's whole lives over copying a song.
right verdict, wrong result (Score:5, Insightful)
As a lawyer, I'm not surprised by this outcome. I admit to not closely following this case. But from what I've read, her defense arguments were really weak. Oddly enough, Ars Technica says it best:
I really can't emphasize that last part enough. Winning a civil trial isn't about being "right" in any objective sense. It's about convincing normal people. If your explanations (technical or otherwise) go over their heads or seem implausible, you will lose. If the jury senses any sort of deception or dishonesty, you will lose. Sometimes if they just plain don't like you, you will lose. Clearly erroneous results can get overturned on appeal, but may cases are close enough calls that an appeal won't help.
On the facts above, I'd have found her liable too. It was clearly her computer with a username she commonly used. That creates a reasonable inference that she used Kazaa on it. While there are many ways for her to rebut this presumption, the flimsy conjecture offered doesn't cut it. Especially if she seemed less than forthright.
That said, the damages award is completely insane. I'd have given nominal damages, enough to hurt but not crippling (on the order of $100-500 per song - yes, below the statutory minimum of $750). It will get reduced on appeal, but not to that level. Maybe something on the order of a few thousand per song. My guess is that the jury really disliked her dishonesty and smacked her for it with huge damages.
I won't criticize her lawyers since I don't know all the details. Maybe these were the best arguments they had. Maybe their client chose to use this defense against their recommendations. Undoubtedly the news reports distorted the story. Whatever the case, the defense was really weak. This verdict was predictable.
Absolutely Nuts (Score:5, Insightful)
I, for one, cannot wait to see the entire music industry implode in favor of artists who record at home with the low-priced equipment available, and who market through cooperatives over the Internet. Let Big Music Die Now Please!
Well Done! (Score:5, Funny)
Well done, RIAA, and a hearty thank you to your minions at MediaSentry.
I now feel that I am REALLY getting my monies worth from my Internet connection. Just downloaded 1,000 songs in a collection "Best Rock Songs Ever".
Used Bittorrent, so I figure that, at 80,000 per song, I just copped 80 MILLION DOLLARS last month!That theft took just 5% of my transfer cap, so I *could* go for 1.6 BILLION if I really got cracking!
Out of time (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What are the lawyers thinking? (Score:5, Funny)
haha.. never assign to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.
Parent
Re:What are the lawyers thinking? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm starting to believe this lady was paid off by the RIAA to set an example by letting it go through the justice system with a bad defense and keep pushing their luck for the amounts awarded and setting precedents. In the back room she just gets paid everything back in double. Really, how difficult is it to punch through the RIAA's statements? The average helpdesk technician would punch holes in their statements if called as an 'expert witness'. I'm really starting to doubt the value of lawyers in these type of cases. The Chewbacca defense might even stand.
While it's difficult to second guess the decisions a trial lawyer makes, it is hard for me to understand why defendant's lawyers gave the plaintiffs a free pass on the MediaSentry/Jacobson nonsense, and didn't even call their own expert. It is likewise difficult to understand why the jurors weren't instructed as to what the plaintiffs had to prove in order to establish a "distribution", or why it was assumed that they were entitled to recover statutory damages (as opposed to actual damages) at all, there having been no questions or instructions relating to the essential elements of that.
But I should point out that this outsized verdict (a) makes it inevitable that the verdict will be set aside, and (b) cripples the RIAA's attempts to justify their statutory damages theory as against constitutional attack. Had the jury awarded $50,000 or $60,000 the RIAA would have more of a chance to hold on to the verdict, and would have had a less embarrassing precedent to try to defend in other cases.
Parent
Re:What are the lawyers thinking? (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably because the realization that the expert witness (I read the written testimony, and I know Yongdae Kim as a colleague: he is an excellent and honest researcher and professor) can't really contribute to the defense.
This is a civil trial, in terms of probabilities. The probability of misidentification of the computer goes way down when you remove the wireless, password protect the computer, and go from there.
The problem is, Media Sentry's evidence is pretty compelling: Identify her IP, identify her commonly used username, identify the songs, and she wasn't offering up a defense of being a poisoner/spreading bogus files.
As much as you'd like to believe it is nonsense, an honest expert witness for the defense would be forced to acknowledge all of this.
Yongdae Kim's written testimony mostly covered cases which could not have occured (no wireless, etc) and which were specifically ruled out by the judge for being irrelevant possibilities, or which would be exceedingly unlikely (a trojan on the system soley for KaZaA, IP address hijacking which, if Ms Thomas's computer was on, might result in RST storms from unexpected data, dropping the hijacker, by a hijacker who anyway was trying specifically to frame Ms Thomas), and on the stand he'd have to say so.
This is likely why Dr Kim was not put on the stand: during mock cross examination, Ms Thomas's laywer realized just how damaging Dr Kim's testimony would be in the hands of a plantiff's attorney.
Parent
Re:What are the lawyers thinking? (Score:5, Interesting)
The lawyers, no matter how good, were up against one major obstacle during both trials. And that obstacle is that the evidence overwhelmingly said she was guilty of what they were accusing her of.
I don't like the RIAA either. And I also think this award is even more silly than the last one. But that makes two juries now that have found this twit guilty. Its time for her to fess up, quit trying to play the victim, and settle for a few thousand dollars.
And if the intarwebs community wants to be taken seriously in their fight for reasonable copyright laws, they need to find a better case to rally around. One where the accused person really is innocent. Continuing to support Jammie Thomas-Whateveritis only makes us look like stupid pirates.
Parent
Re:What are the lawyers thinking? (Score:5, Interesting)
Chapter 13 will likely take care of that, if she's eligible.
What those who thought the outcome would be different miss is the authority bias of juries and judges. Most people, and particularly most people who end up on juries, have a bias towards believing and favoring whoever appears to be an authority over an individual who appears to be opposing them. The RIAA looks like authority; thus, they are favored.
Parent
Re:What are the lawyers thinking? (Score:5, Informative)
because the punishment doesn't even come close to the crime.
There's that word again. There was no crime. There is no crime.
Parent
Re:What are the lawyers thinking? (Score:5, Informative)
No-one is this dumb, but in the interest of education, it's called a tort [wikipedia.org].
Parent
Re:Why oh why didn't she settle? (Score:5, Insightful)
The damages are enormous, but the legal fees that the RIAA has amassed need to be recouped in some fashion.
The expenses can be recouped in the following manner: the RIAA pays the legal expenses they incurred. If we get into a fender bender, and I sue you for damages, that's okay. If I spend 3 million on my legal team over it, that's me spending money foolishly. You shouldn't have to pay for it.
I did say should... applying logic or "should" statements to legal proceedings is it's own type of illogical, I know...
Everyone likes to dogpile on the RIAA, but they are only defending the rights that the law has provided them.
To absurd degrees considering how trivial an offense it was. That's what makes them bad guys.
Moral of the story: don't break the law, and if you do, try to avoid lawyers, they are very expensive. It was foolish to reject the initial $5000 settlement. Any lawyer could have looked at the facts of the case and come to the conclusion that she didn't have sufficient evidence to prove her innocence, which is very important in civil trials.
I wouldn't call standing up to a bully "foolish" exactly.
Parent
Re:Come on people (Score:5, Insightful)
She lied about her hard drive, thinking it would get her off. I don't like the RIAA, but she deserved this.
Um, no. For lying under oath she deserves to face perjury charges, not have her punishment be magnified 1000 times.
Parent
Re:Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
Where are they finding these jurors at? Where is the constitution on this one? I just recently served as a juror and I was told to look at the evidence and testimony presented then come to a conclusion based on this without bias. How could anyone come to a verdict like this given the evidence from both sides? Do these people not realize at any time they could be a victim just as the defendant, open Wi-Fi anyone? This has to be a blatant violation of her 8th Amendment rights, this is wrong on so many levels it makes my head hurt.
On the bright side, sometimes when something so stupid happens, it forces a change in the law. And certainly, this verdict (a) will itself be set aside, and (b) gives added ammunition to the lawyers like myself who are arguing that the RIAA's statutory damages theory is unconstitutional.
Parent
Re:Can they do anything else (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh trust me, I have the highest contempt for the courts right now.
This verdict will be the cause of derision internationally, and will provide endless fodder for those who are fond of laughing in their beer at the USA. Unfortunately, they will have a pretty irrefutable point.
Parent
Re:should they have JUST talked about money? (Score:5, Informative)
I would also be interested to know if that $1.9 million award included legal fees as well as compensatory and pun[i]tive damages
1. No it does not include legal fees.
2. It does not include any compensatory damages; the compensatory damages would have been approximately $8.
3. The damages are "statutory" damages which are similar to "punitive" damages.
Parent
Re:Eighth Amendment - One Line (Score:5, Interesting)
If what you said was true, then Ray would have been crowing about it, but he isn't.
Actually, if you look at the amicus briefs I filed in SONY v. Cloud and SONY v. Tenenbaum, you will see that the only argument I made was the 5th amendment argument, leaving the 8th amendment argument to others to make.
But one of the first reactions I had when I realized that $1.92 million wasn't a typo, was that perhaps I had made a mistake, and should have made the 8th amendment argument after all.
Parent