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Comments: 300 +- News: Antitrust Pressure Mounts For Wireless Providers on Wednesday July 29 2009, @08:37AM
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Over the past few weeks, the cellphone industry has been criticized on a variety of subjects, from distracted driving to handset exclusivity deals to everything else that's shady within the industry. Verizon's CEO has now responded, addressing what he claims are "myths" about standard practices. Reader DJRumpy points out that the chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Antitrust, Competition Policy and Consumer Rights has been calling for an investigation into whether competition is being stifled through many of these practices, "including possible text messaging price fixing and questionable roaming arrangements." Apparently the new antitrust chief is hitting resistance from within the government over the aggressive inquiries into this and other major industries. However, a small victory was achieved the other day when the National Telecommunications and Information Administration "told incumbent carriers that they'll have to prove their cases just like everyone else if they want to challenge broadband grant proposals from smaller players." There is also legislation in the works that would require states to impose a ban on text messaging while driving or lose a significant portion of their federal highway funding.
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Yeah, take THAT Verizon! (Score:2, Troll)
Re: (Score:2)
That'll teach you to charge me $40 for roaming last month when I never left the city, motherfuckers!
Unless you are on an ancient plan or left the country, Verizon doesn't charge roaming fees for using partner networks.....
Re:Yeah, take THAT Verizon! (Score:5, Informative)
There are cities on the US/Canadian border that you can pick up Canadian towers, and they will indeed charge you for roaming.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm well aware of that, but most end users don't know about that (unless they're told by someone who does.) Also, you usually get free roaming.. inside the country. 'Leaving' the country is an entirely different roaming situation they neglect to inform you about.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Irrelevent, since VZW likely had coverage in his home area.. otherwise why would he use them?
All I want to see... (Score:3, Insightful)
...is pro-rated fees for breaking a contract early. If I decide Sprint sucks and break my 2-year contract after 18 months, I should have to pay the full $200 fee. I should pay $50.
Contracts aren't what they used to be... (Score:3, Insightful)
No, you should have to pay whatever the contract, which you signed voluntarily, in good health and sound mind, stipulates.
Re:Contracts aren't what they used to be... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not if monopoly power robs the consumer of bargaining power.
It's akin to letting a majority of wolves outvote sheep on what's for dinner.
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Re:Contracts aren't what they used to be... (Score:5, Interesting)
We've got the same discussions going on here across the pond, but we're a bit further along. Several laws have already been passed ordering carriers to stop blocking VoIP and such; in Belgium, iPhones must be sold independently of carriers. I think we're starting to get the mix between government intervention and free market right. On another level, we told the telco's to standardise the power plugs they use; they were given an ultimatum after mass public annoyance at all the different chargers we have, and told to "choose or have it chosen for them". Now micro-USB will be becoming the standard. We're getting there!
It makes me wonder, though. I don't believe in free market anymore. There's just too many loopholes, lobbying being the biggest. And I think the U.S. government has a lot of corruption to stamp out before it can be as flexible as the EU has been hitherto.
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Re:Contracts aren't what they used to be... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't believe in free market anymore. There's just too many loopholes, lobbying being the biggest.
If government is so involved in the economy that lobbying is worth the effort, then it's not a truly free market. In a real free market, the government simply wouldn't have the power.
In a TRULY free market, the government wouldn't have power to establish currency, protect ownership, extend licensure... all sorts of things that the economy depends on.
The "hypothetical free market" requires perfect information, perfect competition, and perfect mobility. As none of these are feasible to attain, government regulation is required to simulate them or compensate for their lack. For example, legal definitions of what "organic" produce is, and establishment of certifying bodies (which are private enterprises, but have some sort of charter or something from the government that establishes their certification as adequate for usage of the term "organic") help compensate for the lack of perfect information about farming practices. Without them, someone could say "Yeah, my produce is organic!" after spraying it with tons of pesticides, and you wouldn't really have any way of verifying that unless you traveled out to their farm yourself and watched them for a while... or brought your own lab kit to the market.
So, markets that work on the scale we expect them to will always require SOME amount of regulation, and insofar as there is such regulation, there will be disagreements about how that regulation should be put in place. Some methods would favor the producer or the consumer. Hence, there's a business interest in attempting to shape the regulatory process.
I'm all for making lobbying illegal... but that, some say, is over-regulating the market.
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Re:Contracts aren't what they used to be... (Score:5, Informative)
cartels and monopolies behave the same way and have the same economic side effects so my point still stands.
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Re:Contracts aren't what they used to be... (Score:5, Informative)
I believe the GP is suggesting that Sprint, Verizon, AT&T and Cingular all act as a cartel in the US to artificially control prices, keep out competition and constrain consumer choice.
Is that clear enough?
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't understand, what you are talking about. Maybe, you need to put some more work into your postings, rather than argue in one-liners. Thanks.
This always amazes me. This is an article talking about potential antitrust problems with cell phone companies and you're chiming in with your opinions, but you don't know what trusts are in this context. Doesn't it seem prudent to learn at least the concept of what you're discussing before forming opinions on it and expressing those opinions?
Logic is flawed (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it doesn't. No one forces you to have a cell phone, no matter what possible reason you come up with.
So by your logic NOTHING is a cartel or monopoly.
The original Bell Co. which didn't allow any other telephone other than those they create really wasn't a problem. Why, because according to your logic no one was making you have a land line right?
Standard oil really wasn't either a monopoly right? No one was making the public own a car or own a car that used oil right?
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
While I agree, there is no monopoly, there appears to be what one might call a Oligopoly. There are 4 National carriers. (Yes, there are a few smaller ones.) AT&T, Sprint, Verizon, T-Mobile. I count two others with over a million subscribers on ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_wireless_communications_service_providers [wikipedia.org]) which is currently not being acquired by one of those 4 (Either listed there, or known by myself).
Their plans are almost lockstep. Comparing some plans last year, the
Re:Contracts aren't what they used to be... (Score:5, Insightful)
Together, the major companies are a monopoly in that they don't allow competition. They're effectively one company, they all offer the same crappy service and weak sauce features for the SAME PRICE. They agree between each other how deep to stick it in our asses. Try paying less than 30$ a month for a cell phone service.
i'd LOVE to have a service that charges me based on my use. i make two or three calls a WEEK, all to my girlfriend and all about 1 minute long. "I'm ready", "OK, i'm on my way". i send a text message every two or three days. i'm not a twelve year old girl who has to yammer constantly. Now that i have an iPhone provided my my employer, my usage has changed little. It's not a matter of cost anymore, it's just how i use the tool. When i was paying, i had over 10,000 rollover minutes from a minimal plan. Fuck that. It was a huge waste of money. Here's where you're make another purely argumentative comment like "but you didn't have to have a cell phone".
The pay-as-you-go phones are set up so that you have to keep paying to keep your number. The amount you could spend on a busy week can quickly outstrip that of a monthly plan. It wouldn't kill them to offer a monthly plan for 10$ a month.
Other countries have more competition so they strive to offer better services, more services and better prices. Japan's cell phone system puts ours to shame. They pay less and "get more". We can attribute some of that to Japanese technophilia, but most of it comes from competition. As much as the US obsesses about competition and free market, we don't do it. Powerful companies buy politicians to make laws so that no one else can play.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Then please explain to me how can I stop paying for incoming texts that my idiot friends with unlimited texting plans keep sending me. It's not like I have a choice receiving them. And speaking of SMS, how come the non bundle cost is $0.20 for ALL carriers? Surely one would realize that reducing the price would mean more customers and we all know that the cost of carrying them is practically 0. Oh, and funny how the price went up to $0.20 with ALL carriers AT THE SAME TIME...
And speaking of voice plans, how
Re:Contracts aren't what they used to be... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you should have to pay whatever the contract, which you signed voluntarily, in good health and sound mind, stipulates.
This is America! If you have a greivence against a company, you have rights, you know. Your rights are protected by federal, state, and local laws.
1. You have the right to binding arbitration by some bought-off company in Northern Virginia.
2. You have the right to... well, that last one's it, really.
I don't mean to be too flippant, but laws are definitely there to protect the consumer, and that trumps contracts. This is similar to how California finds most non-compete agreements invalid: a hungry person will definitely agree to one during an economic downturn, but it would unfairly prevent them from getting another job later. In this case, all cellphone companies have similar stupid rules, like binding arbitration.
The law is your tool to protect you from that. Don't give up your rights too easily.
WRT to free markets and contracts: I'll believe that *these* contracts fall under free market provisions of binding legal exchange of promises between two equal parties when *they* acknowledge the changes that I had written into the contract before sending it in, or even what the base contract was. Oh look, they've update the terms again. How quaint.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
AT&T's early termination fee is prorated [att.com].
Re:Contracts aren't what they used to be... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you should have to pay whatever the contract, which you signed voluntarily...
That argument is a codependent enabler for corporate abuses. If all the cell providers are using basically the same language in their contracts, consumers have no effective choice. Try to find a brokerage account that doesn't make you waive your rights to seek redress in the courts. They don't exist, because they're all using the binding arbitration clauses in their contracts. Consumers have no effective choice.
And, always in the background, some pompous, know-it-all dick saying, "If you don't like it, don't sign the contract." If that was the case, you wouldn't have a cell phone, telephone, car, bank account, investment account, 401(K) or internet connection. When companies collude on contract language, they are functioning as a cartel not free market players. When you don't have a choice, it's not a free market.
Stop sticking up for abusive behavior, makes you look like a tool.
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Re: (Score:2)
In which case the fee will be increased so that most people still pay $200.
Did they hold a gun to your head when you signed the thing with the obvious non-pro-rated fee? If not why "should" you have to pay less than what you agreed to?
Re:All I want to see... (Score:4, Informative)
Did you have a snowball's chance in hell of negotiating? Did competitors give them any incentive to be reasonable?
No and no.
Parent
Re:All I want to see... (Score:4, Insightful)
You just want to use the Government to force a change to a private business model because you don't happen to like it.
No my wants are much more self centered than that. What I want is to just not have to pay anything but get all the things I want. I'll not be happy until I can pick a cell phone off a tree, as many as I like, that makes calls and SMS and MMS and email and web surfing, all with fully FOSS software that I'll never see the source of but I still want FOSS.
I want it to have a big screen and a fast processor and a long battery life. I do not want any corporate logos on it. I do not want to receive a bill. No contracts. No government tracking of my calls or anything else. No private tracking either.
I do not want to have to look at an ad. I want to be able to run any software I like easily. I want it to have access for me to torrent any file I want at no cost (to me). It should be able to open every file format there is no matter how obscure or pointless. It should not encumber anyone in any way.
Rainforests cannot be cut down for this phone, nor can any whales be killed. Sweatshops shall not have any involvement. There should be a crank on the side I can crank if I run out of battery power. There should also be a solar panel. The manufacturing/growing methods for this phone shall be carbon neutral. Nanotubes should be in some way involved.
It should have a good UI that includes CLI. Multi-touch. Gestures. Handwriting recognition. Stylus capable. If my fingers are slicked over with french fry grease there shall be no ill effects on the screen, either in functionality or appearance.
The phone will be GPS capable with a compass and full access to maps served up by someone else without and ads or logos on them. I should be able to record TV shows on it. The camera will be a collaboration between Hasselblad and Phase One and do 1080p video in a fully FOSS file format unencumbered by patents. The firmware shall all be FOSS. There shall never be any software errors or crashes. Same goes for the hardware.
When such a device is delivered I will be only partially happy, as by that time I will have devised new conditions that will ensure I can feel technologically superior to my peers, who think that their tree grown eco-friendly superphones are the pinnacle of phone development. I, in my wisdom, will find fault, room for improvement, despite that fact that I am entirely incapable of advancing the state of cellular phone, the cellular phone industry, its services, or any other aspect of the human condition.
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Re:All I want to see... (Score:4, Informative)
This is nonsense. The contract fees are specifically designed to keep you from jumping ship. They don't want you moving to a competitor. They want to be able to abuse you as a consumer and they use the fee as a fear tactic. Jump ship and they still get a ton of money out of you.
It's anti-competitive, pure and simple.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
No, that is technically not correct, although it does happen in the real world. The whole purpose of the ETF (which varies these days on provider, I know ATT is pro rating based on how long you have been on contract) is to recoup the cost of the subsidized device you bought from them, in exchange for a 2 year contract.
Like I said though, what something was meant for, and what it is actually being used for, are two totally different things.
Now I am not going to get into the fact that they abuse the ETF, for
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Many cell phone companies (Sprint included) price phones in such a way that the only way one can afford to get service with them is to sign their 2-year contract, which subsidizes the phone. Then, if you are unhappy with the service, you're stuck doling out a large sum of money just to switch to another carrier that might be even worse.
I understand that the company must recoup the money they spent on subsidizing the phone to you, but having to pay the full termination fee whenever you've already fulfilled
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Last time I was contract free, without a subsidized phone, the airtime ended up costing about twice as much as it would have if I'd had a contract and taken their phone.
They price EVERYTHING so that you're pretty much forced to take the contract.
Re:All I want to see... (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, yes, you did. You could have declined the service.
The word, "negotiate", clearly doesn't not mean what you think it means. Your statement only affirms negotiation is part part of the process.
You just want to use the Government to force a change to a private business model because you don't happen to like it.
Cartels do not exist for the public good. Government exists to protect the public from abusive monopolies and cartels. Furthermore, they are doing so by leveraging a resource lent to them for the sole purpose of furthering public interest. This absolutely falls within the realm of regulation.
And, what you are calling a "private business model" is actually a government granted Monopoly using scarce resources provided them for the sole purpose of societal benefit. Sure they are allowed to make a profit. In this case, they are making a profit while abusing their monopoly/cartel position to deny rights required under equitable contract law.
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Re:All I want to see... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Ban on text messaging while driving? (Score:5, Funny)
WTF? I regularly post to slashdot while I'm driving to
Text Messaging is Marked up 7314% (Score:5, Insightful)
The Consumerist reported that Verizon text messaging is marked up by 7314% when compared to the relative cost of other data transfer services. Prices for text messages have also risen from .10 to .15 to .20 in recent years, even as the costs of data throughput have decreased.
( http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2009/06/text-messaging-rates-overpriced-att-aprint-verizon-t-mobile.html [consumerreports.org] )
The reason for this is simple: Greed and collusion.
Consumer Reports has this to say on the subject:
"As CU has noted, less than four years ago rates to send a text message were 10 cents per text at the nation's four big wireless carriers: AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile, and Verizon Wireless. Each company then raised rates to 15 cents, then to 20 cents.
To CU, these text-message rates, along with exclusivity deals for certain cell phones, exemplify the need for âoemore oversightâ into the wireless marketplace, to âoedetermine if government intervention is necessary.â
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VZ is like a supermarket and other businesses that sell lossleaders and make it up on other products. in this case a lot of phones are lossleaders because they sell you a phone for less than retail price and make up the difference on the monthly charges. texting is just there for people that want it to help pay for all the phones. once 4G networks come along texting will be free and they will charge for something else.
the cash price of a monthly cell phone contract hasn't changed much in the last 10 years w
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My text messaging is free, as is my voicemail and internet. And I don't have to pay minutes, it's a flat $50 per month. It's going to cost over a hundred bucks to replace my stolen phone, though.
Re:Text Messaging is Marked up 7314% (Score:4, Insightful)
I think this is a ploy to get people into lucrative monthly plans where you will almost never send the amount of text messages you need to cost them any money. As an example I sometimes send 150 text messages a month luckily I have a $5 plan that allows 250. However the next three months I might send 5 text messages and Verizon wins as I used no where near that amount.
Saying that I would love to see the companies not be allowed to run one plan that subsidizes the phones even after you ran through the two year contract. I feel I have to get a new phone every two years or I'm ripping myself off as I'm still paying for a phone that I have not received due to the contracts being overpriced.
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Banning texting at the federal level (Score:3, Interesting)
On the one hand, texting while driving is about as dangerous as drinking and driving. It takes eyes and concentration off the road and puts everyone else at risk. It is an activity that ought to be illegal.
But first of all, do we want the federal government having that kind of control over the states? The actions taken by the federal government ought to be carefully weighed with the impact it will have on all states. National defense, public educational standards, immigration and border controls, healthcare. These are the things that Washington ought to be concerned about. Not some 16 year old field hockey player driving her mom's Durango with her boyfriend's hands between her knees and her eyes on her iPhone.
Secondly, what are we actually defining as texting? Technology changes so rapidly that a measure like this can only be relevant for a short time.
Leave the texting laws to the states. Don't let the federal government bully the states into making the laws.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
National defense, and immigration and border controls. These are the things that Washington ought to be concerned about.
Fixed that for you.
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This is nothing new. The Fed collects the money from the states and then uses it as a stick in order to push their will back onto the states. Sure, it was the states money to begin with, but the only way to get it back is to comply with whatever the Fed wants the state to do.
IMHO, the likely upcoming of legalization in CA will be very fun to watch. Federal agents can (and most likely will) keep arresting those
Re:Banning texting at the federal level (Score:5, Interesting)
Texting while driving is already illegal in all 50 states.
It's called reckless driving [wikipedia.org].
This new requirement is just posturing. It's a waste of time, effort, and money. It also contributes to the growing problem of federal law being vast and un-knowable by any single individual.
Go congress!
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Re:Banning texting at the federal level (Score:4, Informative)
On the one hand, texting while driving is about as dangerous as drinking and driving. It takes eyes and concentration off the road and puts everyone else at risk. It is an activity that ought to be illegal.
Actually, it's worse. Car and Driver did a test comparing the two [caranddriver.com], and they found that text messaging while driving is worse than driving while intoxicated.
The reason? My guess is that when you're driving buzzed, at least you're (hopefully) giving the road your undivided attention.
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No Text messaging while driving! (Score:4, Funny)
Laws against text messaging while driving (Score:2)
One of the advantages of the U.S. system is that various states can try different approaches to address problems, each with their own idea of the best way to fix the problem. Then other states can adopt the approach that best solves the problem with the fewest negative u
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Where do you live that it's 'rarely criticized'?
This even just came out recently: Doctor who was on presidential commission that pushed to raise drinking age to 21 regrets change, believes it did more harm than good. [latimes.com]
technology gap? (Score:2)
What if people who feel the need to text while driving are provided with a "heads-up" keyboard display on their windshields like fighter pilots have? Entering text could be a simulation of "shooting" the desired virtual key via buttons on the steering wheel.
Not practical at the moment, I'll admit, but it would be easier than prying the devices out of folks' hands. Think of all the fun that could be had by blasting away at the idiot in front of you. Stress reliever?
Disclaimer: I do not own a cell phone and b
Stopping text messaging while driving (Score:2)
I'm afraid that the only way to prevent people from texting while driving is for the companies to shutdown that feature, permanently.
But, as it is a large cash-cow for them, they will not do that as a preventative measure. Quite a few people will die in accidents where someone was texting and studies will have to be done to show what we already know - if you want to talk or text someone, pull over to the side of the road FIRST. Don't drive distracted; the life you save may be someone you know.
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Why doesn't monthly cost go down with no phone... (Score:5, Interesting)
I use Verizon atm, and I noticed that if you open an account, and get a subsidized phone by signing a 2 year agreement you get whatever the rate is. Why, after two years, when theoretically you have paid for the subsidized phone, doesn't your monthly bill go down. Now if you upgrade the phone after 2 years with a 2year renewal, I can see keeping the price the same. But otherwise, they should be required to tell you how much of what you are paying each month is going to paying for the phone, and drop that cost when the phone is paid for.
Also, if you bring your own phone, you don't get a reduced rate, you just don't have to sign up for 2 years.
Re:Why doesn't monthly cost go down with no phone. (Score:3, Interesting)
Count yourself lucky. In Canada if you bring your own phone and don't sign a contract you pay more.
Oh, and cancelling the contract isn't $200, it's $400. Plus another $100 for your data plan.
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Sprint and T-Mobile are screwed because they cater to bottom feeders and now they're complaining.
How is T-Mobile "screwed"? If you live somewhere where they have good coverage (most urban areas and quite a few suburban ones) they are a great option. Much more affordable than Verizon or AT&T and much better customer service.
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Of the three of the 'big four', I have shitty experience with AT&T and Verizon. They have "the best network/fewest dropped calls" only in their ads. Don't get me started on their pathetic customer service, their lock-ins, they charges. T-mobile is godsend compared to those two.
Now talking about your 'great phones' argument - in my opinion, that is the crux of the problem. In fact, AT&T and Verizon are out-muscling other small time providers jus
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
few years ago all phones were about the same in features and people shopped based on price and coverage. Sprint decided to bottom feed the market with it's pay cash in the store machines to cater to illegals and people who don't have bank accounts or internet access.
Is there any evidence that suggests Sprint was trying to cater to illegal residents (of the US, I assume)? First of all, note that there is a huge population of legal non-resident aliens who work in the US. Second, the areas of my city heavily populated by foriegn nationals are littered with Cricket [mycricket.com] stores; THEY are the ones who seem to be aggressively pursuing this market. Third, the core of Sprint's subscriber base for many years has been businesses. This comment seems like an inflamatory remark intended