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Comments: 154 +- News: Defense Department Eyes Hacker Con For New Recruits on Sunday August 02 2009, @09:44AM
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alphadogg writes "The US Air Force has found an unlikely source of new recruits: the yearly Defcon hacking conference, which has been running since Thursday in Las Vegas. Col. Michael Convertino came to Defcon for the first time last year, and after finding about 60 good candidates for both enlisted and civilian positions, decided to come back again. Federal agencies have only recently begun embracing the hacker crowd. When US Department of Defense director of futures exploration Jim Christy hosted his first Defcon 'Meet the Fed' panel in 1999, he was one of two people onstage. At this week's Defcon, there may be several thousand federal employees in attendance, he said."
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Isn't this an obvious way to recruit (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, these events attract at lot of smart, independent thinking people who love technology. What better place to recruit people? If it works at Universities, then it probably works better at DefCon.
I guess they were worried about the "independent thinking" before...
Re:Isn't this an obvious way to recruit (Score:5, Interesting)
Emphasis mine. Civilian positions are one thing, but it seems to me if you put a smart and independent thinking person through the military's recruit-crusher, you're either going to get a non-independent-thinking person, a smart and independent thinking person who has been faking non-independent thinking and hates the military for it, or a corpse.
Hackers & discipline... probably not the best combination ever.
Parent
Discipline vs patriotism (Score:2, Interesting)
While perhaps not the most disciplined troops in the group, Americans who hvae passed through the educational system and who have access to a television are well-versed in patriotism.
What the military doesn't need is free-thinkers. Hackers, by virtue of their status as hackers, are not necessarily free-thinkers. If they've passed through the American educational system, they've already been trained as much as the military needs. The American public school system is designed to train patriots. I wouldn't wor
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I don't think you understand the military very well. They NEED freethinkers. A soldier who can look at facts and make a decision based on the knowledge at hand (not tied down to racial/religious bias and a lot of other baggage) is a key part of military leadership. Not all thoughts can be acted upon however. The action itself must adhere to the current regulations, SOP, and ROE. But that doesn't mean they can't express that opinion, by all means do so.
The biggest goal for any military unit is "mission
Re:Discipline vs patriotism (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, freethinkers who can conform to regulations are the ideal, but many times the junior ranks are beaten with the "conform stick" enough that the freethinkers leave the military before they advance to a rank that encourages creativity.
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Re:Isn't this an obvious way to recruit (Score:5, Insightful)
Hackers & discipline... probably not the best combination ever.
Score -1: So wrong it hurts to read.
The best hackers i know of are the ones who *are* disciplined. Go to sourceforge and look at the overwhelming number of half assed, dead projects the clutter up the works. The best open source projects are the ones that have taken years of hard work to reach maturity. That's real discipline.
The linux kernel wasn't written in a nights hacking in Linus' moms basement. It takes years of dedication and hard work to get to the level of "holy freaking crap, that guy is amazing" hacking. Simply knocking around around in perl does not a hacker make. For ever 10 hackers out there that won't put up with the bullshit that military service brings, there are probably one or two who will go that extra mile. Kudos to the air force for figuring that out.
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I love that some people still try to reclaim the word hacker. In a story about DEFCON no less.
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The linux kernel wasn't written in a nights hacking in Linus' moms basement.
Yes, it took many thousands of nights' hacking in Linus' mom's basement.
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Re:Isn't this an obvious way to recruit (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Isn't this an obvious way to recruit (Score:4, Informative)
You obviously aren't in the military. Trust me, there is no mind-crushing mentality in any branch save possibly the marines. In fact, most good supervisors encourage lateral thinking from junior level enlisted men, and I don't know a single Master Chief (I'm Navy) who hasn't told that story of the Seaman who saved the day by saying something didn't seem right.
Independent thinking, smart people are exactly the type of folk we want in the military, not brain-dead puppets. The military does a heck of a lot more than serve as cannon fodder in the middle east.
Parent
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So there's no more breaking down recruits as individuals in order to build them up as soldiers? I find that hard to believe.
Re:Isn't this an obvious way to recruit (Score:5, Insightful)
"it seems to me if you put a smart and independent thinking person through the military's recruit-crusher, you're either going to get a non-independent-thinking person, a smart and independent thinking person who has been faking non-independent thinking and hates the military for it, or a corpse."
And, may I ask how many years you served, and in what branch?
In my 8 years of service, I was never made aware that I should think some sort of "group think". In fact, those people who were advanced most rapidly generally though "outside the box". My own meritorious advancement to E-5 was a result of having both balls and brains. (lest anyone asks, I never had brawn - just plenty of balls) That is to say, I saw the situation differently than my leaders, and I took some initiative to accomplish the mission.
The day the military begins hammering independent thought out of men's heads, the military will most definitely fail.
To be perfectly honest, your statement is pretty insulting to veterans. It suggests that men and women who complete one or more tours of duty successfully are either mindless puppets, or dishonest people. If that is what you really mean, then maybe you should look around you. Wherever you live, there are good men and women around you who are veterans and are very successful. Maybe your boss? Maybe HIS boss?
Parent
Re:Isn't this an obvious way to recruit (Score:4, Insightful)
Be careful not to overgeneralize. Not all geeks/hackers are anti-authority by nature. Many of those that are learn to get over it as they mature. To get very far in the real world, you have to be willing to accept that other people (often daft ones) will get to boss you around once in awhile. If you want to succeed, you have to learn to take it in stride. By all means, stand up for what you believe in, but don't think that being a belligerent idealist will win you many friends in any field or environment.
While I wouldn't necessarily call myself a hacker, I am a pretty independent geek and despite that I enjoyed most of my time in the active duty military. Granted, I worked on autopilots rather than PCs, but if I could hack it, I think any geek can. Plus, the discipline that the military provides is exactly what a lot of young hackers need to turn their raw skills and knowledge into a career that can propel them into positions where they can call the shots and do what's needed for the security of the nation's infrastructure.
The fact that the DoD is starting to see hackers as resources rather than adversaries is extremely encouraging and should be applauded. Just a decade or two ago, this was the stuff of science fiction.
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They don't look much like independent thinkers when they're all lined up in their LAN parties... more like drones pressing buttons...
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Seriously, these events attract at lot of smart, independent thinking people who love technology. What better place to recruit people? If it works at Universities, then it probably works better at DefCon.
I guess they were worried about the "independent thinking" before...
It's a love hate relationship. Though the military doesn't like free or independent thinkers, it has also used them. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency [wikipedia.org] or DARPA has funded research at a number of universities, some considered more
"during a discussion panel ... at blackhat" (Score:5, Funny)
- Moxie Marlinspike demonstrates how to pwn an F22-Raptor has it passes your datacenter
- K Chen describes how an attacker can install malicious code into the firmware of the steering console in a M1A2
- Joshua Abraham demonstrates several flaws in secret identities used by CIA agents
- Marc Bevand disarms Russian missiles with an ATI Graphics card
- Joe Grand now gets free parking in a Black Hawk
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They sign a contract with the government when you get your security clearance. The contract basically pledges you to a lifetime of keeping whatever secrets you were given access to. The price if you break it is lengthy imprisonment, which is spelled out in the contract. I forget the form name, someone else probably remembers it.
It would be hard to do any of those things without falling afoul of that.
Re:"during a discussion panel ... at blackhat" (Score:4, Informative)
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Sigh. You're wrong. Standard form 312 [fas.org] is perfectly enforceable, as many people who have been prosecuted and sued into oblivion have found out to their despair.
So much for "spot the fed". (Score:4, Interesting)
I guess in the next year or two, it will be "spot the non-fed."
-jcr
This years Defcon: Not good (Score:4, Interesting)
I drove all the way down to Vegas from SF Thursday, and by Friday evening I was ready to get out of there. I went to a few panels and was thoroughly underwhelmed. It was crowded, not exciting. Several people walked out of talks. I overheard some other people say "maybe tomorrow will be better". Well, I don't know because I sold my badge and bailed early.
Not to say that there couldn't have been some good smart people to hire there. But after the level of disappointingness Defcon had to offer, I'm no longer impressed. The atmosphere definitely did not inspire me to want to hire anybody.
Re:This years Defcon: SERIOUSLY Not good (Score:3, Interesting)
The words "sell out" came to mind. Remember the early burning-man days? Defcon was once a group that met for a "love of the craft" that has become a certification desktoper recruitment fest.
Sad really, maybe time to let this one go the way of E3 no?
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DC kinda got stale lately. I can't put my finger on it, but compared to other cons, even the public ones like BH or even VB, they really lost their edge. As much as I hate the word "mainstream", but it seems DC got that label. It's become yet another con where business and government goes to exchange views, it's gone from a hacker's "insider" con to a "commercial" con. Certainly good for their income and maybe the only way to finance something like that, but depressing when you think of the things that happ
If they go this route they'd better do deep (Score:2)
What hacker? (Score:3, Insightful)
Now what sort of hacker is going to enlist in the military? First of all he will make 1/10 th of what he can just using his existing skills. Second
of all he would likely be enlisted man and even if he was a officer he would have to put up with the incredible amount of crap that
comes with military service.
Then you have the same sort of issue with civilian govt service, who wants to put up with it. Half of these guys have no degree so the pay
scale does not benefit them either. On top of this it likely requires a TS clearance and how many of these people could actually obtain
the required clearance.
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Now what sort of hacker is going to enlist in the military?
You might not be very familiar with hacker culture. Most hackers, myself included, would pay for the privilege of being able to toy with the sort of computing systems that the military has...
Echelon? That is a real, live, working system. Any hacker out there that DOESN'T start salivating at the mere thought of an opportunity to play with that can turn in their membership card at the door.
Re:What hacker? (Score:4, Insightful)
Uh, 99% of most military computing systems are terrible in terms of computing power. Any of the big projects (of which there are not that many that are even interesting) will have maybe a handful of people that can do anything outside of a set working template of "fill in the blanks for your query" type interfaces. The military portrayed in movies does not exist.
Parent
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Echelon? That is a real, live, working system. Any hacker out there that DOESN'T start salivating at the mere thought of an opportunity to play with that can turn in their membership card at the door.
An ethical hacker would puke, not salivate, at the prospect of working on such a project as Echelon.
--
DK
They're hiring. (Score:3, Insightful)
Now what sort of hacker is going to enlist in the military?
An unemployed one. At least the U.S. military is hiring.
Of course, even if you go in for a technical job, you may be deployed to Iraq, wiring up CAT-5 cable and Cisco routers while dodging IEDs on your way to work.
Much military work today is about systems for sorting out who's enemy and who isn't. The days when everybody in front of you is enemy are over. (In recent decades, enemies who've tried stand-up battles against US troops were defea
Security is very discouraging. (Score:5, Interesting)
Security is very discouraging. I was in the field a long time ago and got fed up. It's just hopeless. The same problems come up over and over.
That's just part of the list. I don't see a determined effort to fix the underlying problems. Given that, it's hopeless.
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Re:Drop and give me 20!!! (Score:4, Funny)
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Have you seen most of the people who attend these conferences?
Most of them can't do a single push-up, and you expect them to work in the military?
It's the Air Force. No need to do pushups.
Seriously, if the military needs certain skills they find ways to get people in. Not every job requires raw strength.
Oh, and Go Navy.
Most of them will not be able to pass Boot camp an (Score:2)
Most of them will not be able to pass Boot camp and I am talking about non push-up part of it just trying putting a DI in there face and see how much back talk you get from them and if they mess up and cost the platoon someting or more PT then they can get there ass kicked by the platoon.
boot camp by give some of them a psychological brake down.
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You seriously need to breathe some fresh air into your view of the military.
The picture you have in your head of basic training was out of date when I went - and that was over 30 years ago.
The Air Farce has no DI's.
What boot camp does is teach people how to operate within a large hierarchical system.
It also puts a person through a mild physical fitness regimen.
I benefited greatly from basic training, though I wouldn't realize it for years.
A lot of the stuff seems silly at the time, like being inspected for
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Other than a different country, with slack extradition laws.
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Thanks for not posting as an Anonymous Coward.
Your sincerely,
The FBI.
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How sad I am that I should fear my own government.
I am American. I am American. I am America.
Except your story doesnt really work (Score:4, Insightful)
Pretty much every Al queda leader has come from a country weve never attacked, many of the countries are in fact our "allies"
The leaders of Al queda come from Saudi Arabia and Egypt, its not our wars that create our enemies its our support for repressive regimes.
In Vietnam a country where we waged a 15 year war, they welcome american tourists and even former american GI's. We dropped atomic
bombs on Japan and now we are their strongest ally.
The problems in Afghanistan have been there before the US arrived (for 30 years) and will be there after the US leaves
Parent
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We dropped atomic
bombs on Japan and now we are their strongest ally.
well clearly we have the answer!
we nuke iraq, iran, and north korea, and they'll absolutely love us!
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Pretty much every Al queda leader has come from a country weve never attacked, many of the countries are in fact our "allies"
And, oddly enough, none of the leadership are willing to strap explosives to themselves and die for their cause. Strange how that works out.
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No need, when they lead a group of people who collectively are culturally primitive, and only marginally literate.
People who would think Sharia Law is something to be desired really aren't fit to eat at the Big People's Table.
It's a backward culture, fools led by hucksters.
Re:Except your story doesnt really work (Score:4, Insightful)
Germans could want a WWII, only because WWI did not affected German civilians the way WWII did, most of WWI happened outside German soil, and on France's one. People in Germany felt frustrated when their government gave up on a war civilians didn't even see with their eyes, they could not conceive a war can be lost abroad one's country, and wanted revenge to political restrictions made by the "winners" of that war they did not see they were loosing.
That's how Hitler could hit people with his hate speech, otherwise, people would have slap his face with ruins of their house shouting "didn't we suffered enough ??"
Now, France and Germany are strong friends, and really not willing to get into a war again.
There is this famous french popular quote, after WWI : "Plus jamais ca." ("never again."), I think we all feel the same across the world, after a real war.
The US keeps voting YES to wars because they never had to feel bombs above their heads, nor their parents.
Though it's a terrible tragedy in human history, WTC was nothing compared to a war on one's soil.
only exceptions are people weak against religious/political/media manipulation, and that's mostly an education level problem, the US weren't at war against Afghanistan, or Irak as far as I know, they were at war with a minority of religious terrorists, a dictator, and the people the dictator had under control. I don't think intellectuals and non-manipulated civilians and farmers ever wanted a fight against world's no.1 army...
I don't know about Vietnam, but the USAÂdid a really good job helping Japan after the war, I have been told in school that US people sent in Japan after the war felt terrible about what war did to the country and did their best, for the good of Japanese people. Really.
Please if you disagree, don't mod me down : I'm young, and still have much to learn, instead reply and feed me with the facts I don't know... AC, I'm looking at you.
Parent
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In every steaming pile there lies a grain of truth.
despite what you find pretty to believe, the military as a whole goes to great lengths to minimize collateral damage.
The fact of the matter is that every action has the risk of collateral damage.
and yeah - killing a certain percentage of innocents has always been, and always will be acceptable once the decision to prosecute a war has been made.
The logical extension of your statements is that all armed conflict will fail, which is demonstrably not the case.
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You just have to seek the level at which you are comfortable.
Government work, whether military of civilian is really no different than non-government work.
You gradually reinvent your position as your employer reinvents you.
You eventually reach a stable symbiotic relationship.
Or you become a disgruntled /. poster.