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Strength? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Strength? (Score:4, Insightful)
Strength is important, and so is longevity.
I don't want to be in the car on that 50 year old bridge that collapses, because they didn't do right trials to detect aging and absorbing CO2 having an adverse effect on the material's strength over time.
Concrete is a rather proven material that has been proven over hundreds of years; spontaneously replacing it now could be highly dangerous.
Much like replacing the OS on a computer system that's been chugging a way for 500 years, with a brand new release version.
Sure, there may be an efficiency improvement. There can also be unexpected bugs.
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Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Sure, hundreds of years, if not more. Do you mean that this is the first time someone has changed the recipe?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Do you seriously believe that modern concrete is the same recipe, strength, and longevity as roman concrete?
Re:Strength? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:2)
All of the roads and bridges aren't going to be replaced at once, and especially not any bridges that rely on concrete for structural integrity.
Not to mention, every time a material like this comes out, it's prohibitively expensive, so probably only eccentric European cities will even try it.
I wouldn't worry too much about it... nobody's going to take away your concrete just yet.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
good analogy!
What? I saw no mention of any car!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed. And I doubt anyone will rush to build skyscrapers and bridges out of this stuff without some serious testing. However, there are plenty of non-critical applications for cement. Road beds, curbs, and sidewalks take up a lot of cement. Even if this wasn't as durable, as a net sink, replacing it 2x as often and landfilling it after you were done would be far more carbon-negative than using regular cement.
I'm imagining that single-home foundations wouldn't be an issue either - they don't (compar
Re:Strength? (Score:4, Insightful)
The weight may not be the issue, but will the structure and volume change when it absorbs CO2 over time?
If there is a volume change then there may be problems with warping and cracking. It's not easy to make a cement that can handle all construction requirements.
Then there is also the concerns about the availability of the magnesium silicates used.
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Re:Strength? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Strength? (Score:4, Informative)
Portland cement based concretes also absorb CO2 over their lifetime.
The difference here is that Portland cement emits a bunch of CO2 during production, but the new stuff does not.
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Re:Strength? (Score:5, Funny)
weight of carbon dioxide, 44 grams per mole
Being a tard on
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Re:Strength? (Score:5, Informative)
There is literally an entry that says "Cement Production" on that link.
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Less CO2 = $Green$ (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe it is in terms of global CO2 levels, but under a cap and trade system, this will turn an industry that might have to buy CO2-emission rights into one that could make money selling them!
Re:Less CO2 = $Green$ (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if it is negligible, "going green" is the trendy thing to do nowadays, so as long as it seems like they're making an effort, that's far more important than if it actually helps.
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Re:Less CO2 = $Green$ (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Less CO2 = $Green$ (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Less CO2 = $Green$ (Score:5, Funny)
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Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
Am I the only one that when reading or hearing of "cap and trade" automatically thinks of that old scam the Catholics had going several centuries ago where you could fuck your neighbor's wife, or steal his land, just as long as you bought your 'get out of hell free" card from the church?
And why do I get this really nasty feeling that we will find Goldman Sachs sitting their behind the scenes ready to cash in? Am I the only one that when hearing all this "going green" with huge numbers and taxes attached
Re:Less CO2 = $Green$ (Score:4, Interesting)
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Isn't magnesium silicate... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Isn't magnesium silicate... (Score:5, Informative)
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Severe doubts (Score:5, Interesting)
This sounds like a concrete nightmare:
If a material absorbs so much CO2 over it's lifespan, it significantly alters the chemical composition and therefore strength.
I doubt any builder will use this material unless it's been proven that the new material is sufficiently stable.
Example: as a geology student, I ran into an area in central spain with lots of Gypsum sediments (Ca|MG.SO4). Putting limestone and concrete buildings on this sediment wasn't done until the 20th century, but all the buildings built in that area are long gone, even though in nearby towns they still stand tall. Reason? The Gypsym in the soil chemically eats the mortar and limestone (CaCO3) out of the structure on top of it, making it crumble within a few decades. The Gypsum areas are largely a wasteland where only very few buildings remain.
Now, Mg.Ca-CO3 (dolomite limestone) is largely as stable or more stable than pure limestone, and certainly harder, but any new formula for the glue in concrete will have to pass the test of time before it will be widely adopted, especially in e.g. bridges and skyscrapers...
Perhaps we can start with the interstates, nobody would notice if they started to crumble early ;)
Re: (Score:2)
Now, Mg.Ca-CO3 (dolomite limestone) is largely as stable or more stable than pure limestone, and certainly harder...
That's dolomite, baby.
Re:Severe doubts (Score:4, Interesting)
Interstates, roads, curbs, sidewalks, etc...
Structure and load bearing however, strength is where it is at. Also most concrete is however very brittle. It is good at load distribution not in actual strength.
Also many times these structures are torn up and tossed into large piles. They could continue to soak up carbon.
The idea is sound, but in practice probably wouldnt be so good as you pointed out. In some applications it is a decent idea.
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Re: (Score:2, Informative)
It is good at load distribution not in actual strength.
More precisely, concrete is good in compression, but poor in tension. That's why you fill it with steel bars if it has to take any bending forces that would put part of it in tension.
Actually (Score:2)
Bath Stone already does this (Score:5, Interesting)
The house I live in is a mere 150 years old, but most of the street it is in was built between 1690 and 1695. In fact, our foundations go back to then. The composition and structure of Bath stone has been extensively studied, and I would imagine the results are just a small part of the data the technologists will take into account.
And your point was, again?
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Seriously... (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously? At least here in the Midwest (USA), construction bids still go to the lowest bidder and there are huge piles of construction waste that go straight to the landfill. They won't change until someone makes them change.
I have a similiar green question about concrete (Score:3, Interesting)
Fly ash, which is the ash waste from burning coal is also being used in concrete to lessen the amount of C02 concrete creates as well as improve strength. My question is since this fly ash has a high amount of toxins(heavy metals) in it, would the toxins be locked in the concrete or would they seep out if exposed to water or other stresses over time.
I am curious to know this because apparently fly ash can make concrete easier to work with in insulated concrete form construction and because other types of materials that compete with concrete seem to be using it. Gigacrete.com ( supposedly 10,000 psi strength) though not for structural use is an example. I can't tell if they are using weasel words though because they claim there binder is nontoxic, I can't tell if they are purposely talking about the binder being non toxic and not the fly ash.
I hope someday to build a house out of ICF's (insulated concrete forms), I guess I must have taken to heart that story of the three little pigs when I was young.
Re:I have a similiar green question about concrete (Score:4, Informative)
Fly ash is actually widely used as a supplementary cementitious material. It has all sorts of excellent properties, it reduces porosity, increases durability mitigates ASR. It is a so-called pouzzolane, which means it reacts with the carbon hydroxide produced by the reaction of the cement and transforms it into calcium-silicate hydrate which is the main responsible for the strength of cement (C-S-H is the main product of the reaction of cement with water)
In fact, we are running out of sources of fly ash to put in cement. So basically, no, there is no risk, or we would have known by now. Also, you have to realise that FA is essentially pure amorphous silica, and that heavy elements would only be there as traces and stay trapped as the FA reacts.
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Inaccurate (Score:3, Informative)
You mean turning the cement industry from a big emitter to a small emitter...
Re: (Score:2)
Nobody said that a ton of concrete produces a ton of CO2.
That's a big goal ... (Score:5, Informative)
One of my dorm friends, Jakob Husum [www.dtu.dk], wrote his dissertation [nt.ntnu.no] on ways of optimizing cement productions.
One of the rather impressive/scary things about that, is that it is responsible for about 2% of the world's energy consumption. That's an insane amount of energy for something that isn't even an end product.
The first paragraph of the paper actually grabs you by the balls and twists firmly:
Can't quite remember how much of the energy if spent on the last bit, but I think it was something like 25%. That's 0.5% of the world's energy usage spent on a 1% efficient process. Now imagine you could up the efficiency to 10% or even 5%. That'd be a reduction of the world's energy usage of 0.45 or 0.4% respectively, simply by improving a single process.
Now, there are a lot of arguments for saving energy. Saving the environment, less pollution etc., but it's hard to overlook the economic incentive of cutting back energy costs of a production, where a large part of the process is 1% efficient.
Nice thought, but.... (Score:2)
One odd idea for cement is to start using solar to make it. I would think it should be possible for using a solar kiln to do the heating of this. Yes, it will not solve the breaking up, but, the true energy intense part is the heating.
Green is the new Black (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree with you on the 'majority of it isn't actually doing any good' but I disagree on the hold carbon part. It's not like toxic waste where it's still a problem if something absorbs it. Carbon in the concrete isn't carbon in the air, and only carbon (dioxide) in the air is considered harmful to the environment. If it is in solid form (as calcium carbonate, or some other chemical, not as solid carbon dioxide) then it does nothing to the environment except sit, which it was doing before in the form of hydr
Not exactly a first (Score:3, Informative)
Most of the CO2 comes from calcination (Score:5, Interesting)
The summary doesn't explain things very well. Just to set things straight, most of the CO2 emissions from portland cement production is not from the fuel burned in the kilns but from the gas released by the limestone itself during the calcination process. The only real incentive for the use of energy efficient kilns is to reduce fuel costs and not to reduce emissions. The upside is that cement will reabsorb much of the released CO2 as it cures over the course of time.
Could cement plant be colocated with power plant? (Score:3, Interesting)
"...mostly because cement, the active ingredient in concrete, is made by baking limestone and clay powders under intense heat that is generally produced by the burning of fossil fuels."
This sentence got me to wondering. . . one of the big problems of thermal electric power plants (coal, natural gas, nuclear), is that we throw away 50-60% of the heat as waste heat into the environment (nearby body of water or the air). Could the waste heat from a coal or nuclear power plant be used to 'bake' the cement? In the case of coal, sure, you're still burning fossil fuels, but those were being burned *anyhow* to generate electricity, so why not put the waste heat to use? You are, *at least*, not burning any *additional* fossil fuels just for the cement, right? In the case of Nuclear, you are using a very low-carbon heat source, and again, doing something useful with the waste heat?
Re:Could cement plant be colocated with power plan (Score:4, Informative)
It's not impossible but remember that (IIRC) theoretical optimum thermal efficiency is (THigh-Tlow)/THigh.
In practice that means that waste heat is generally too cold for this process. If it were hot enough to make cement it would be hot enough to extract power from.
Waste heat from Combustion Turbines (CTs) is already being used to generate steam in cogen plants.
'Pure' CTs are typically super-peaker plants. Lousy efficiency but they start and ramp fast. Which in practice means their heat is too unpredictable to run that kind of process in any case.
Typical applications of CoLo heating are greenhouses, malls and other large buildings. Market forces are making this (space heating) happen quite nicely where ever economically practical.
My university was/is entirely heated by the waste heat of the coal fired plant on campus (50+ year old setup). Good fun in the steam tunnels. Access to boiler rooms.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Could the waste heat from a coal or nuclear power plant be used to 'bake' the cement?
Far, far too cold.
Typical Rankine cycle plant tops out around 500-600C at the hot end. Higher would be nicer, but the problem is you need a material with immense tensile strength to contain the pressure, pleasant failure modes (not brittle), and good heat conductivity. Sorry but 600C is about as good as our technology gets. The cold end is of course much colder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine_cycle [wikipedia.org]
On the other hand, cement kilns really need about 1500C. Kilns don't operate at much pressure, and ins
CO2 Absorbsion (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not just plant more trees around buildings made of concrete? That seems to me to be a more useful, long-term "incentive" program than some we've seen lately.
Re: (Score:2)
Ah yes, why do xyz when abc would be so much magically better? Because people are always tackling problems from all sides.
A quick googling tells me that cement production requires baking the stuff at 2700F so I presume abc would mean either:
a) Get rid of the need to bake it at such a temperature.
b) Generate that heat with a different method.
Not to say that A is impossible but it sounds like a really hard problem. If someone solves it they deserve their billion dollars.
And B is also hard because I suspect
Re:Global Cooling On Its Way (Score:4, Insightful)
On top of that, Farmer's Almanac, long a very trusted and reliable predictor of future events, has predicted a cooling ...
It's good to see the Slashdot audience moving back to reliance on such scholarly peer-reviewed journals. That's science, that is, science by the quart.
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Re:Oh brother... (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, the mention of the term "carbon footprint" puts this squarely in the "hype" category.
Why did that get modded 5 insightful? Carbon Footprint is a valid and useful term.
The only reason I can see why some might like the above comment is if they are so conservative on climate change, they reject even the terms used in discussing it.
It would almost qualify as an example of the logical fallacy known as the "Appeal to Ridicule" but it wasn't quite intelligent enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule [wikipedia.org]
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, all models [realclimate.org] take clouds into account. Which journal article led you to this conclusion? I've discussed [dumbscientist.com] this issue in the comments and linked to a new paper [sciencemag.org] describing recent improvements to models of clouds.
Try harder next time. (Score:5, Funny)
Global warming may or may not be happening.
That's a tautology much like "water may or may not be wet," so by definition it's logically true. "Global warming is happening." That's a statement of scientific fact, it's empirically true.
We don't know exactly, however it has been established beyond any reasonable doubt that human activity is a major contributor.
Up to that point this was such a beautiful example of agnatology [wikipedia.org] relying on nothing but formally True statements. Why did you have to ruin it? How very disappointing!
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Please link to legitimately peer-reviewed scientific articles that back up these claims, because what you're saying contradicts all the evidence [dumbscientist.com] I've ever seen.